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I disagree with this. I have questioned it- I've decided it's a product that serves no purpose and it's not something I will be buying. But I don't have the right to tell other people they can't buy it and I don't get the offense in seeing it advertised:
Yep, me too. I just had this idea you only breastfed for 6 months, then bottle. It's very, very pervasive. Its' fine if that's what you want or need to do, don't get me wrong. But there's often no real need to do this and, all things being equal, babies are better off continuing to breastfeed.:
I'm not saying people shouldnt' buy formula. I'm saying the advertising serves to intice people to buy, not provide factual information for parents and as such is of limited utility in regards to childrens' health and wellbeing.
I get the point MadB, I really do, and I agree with you. But I fail to see how this is any different to advertising skin creams or diet pills. Those ads don't provide factual info (in fact ads rarely do) and I would say that most ads are of limited utility towards people's health and wellbeing. I think it comes down to people's responsibility to inform themselves about issues rather than relying on advertising or other people telling you what to think.
Yeah, you're right, on the face of it it's the same. It's just that this is so much more important than skin cream or other stuff, you know? And it's not just formula, I'd lump baby food and multivitamins, mediations and all that sort of stuff marketed for infants in there too.
And for a new parent probably struggling with a new baby and vulnerable to messages abut the inadequacies of their breastmilk - telling parents that a product will fill their baby up better, treat reflux, make them sleep more, for eg, does tell them their breastmilk doesn't do those things - they are not going to stop and inform themselves about what's in a product. They will react to these basic messages (true or not), because that is how advertising works. I just don't think this is ok.
It might be different for parents planning to use formula. They have time to investigate and research. I wonder still how much actual information is available, though?
There is information readily available.. Its called the internet, library, GP, health nurses.. Friends, family.. If you are interested in exploring options then you do so.. I don't see anything wrong with advertising.. Tune it out if you aren't interested. My kids are taught that BF is best but I also tell them that sometimes either by choice or not some parents choose formula..:
aussienic - whislt i get what you are saying, it bears remembering that you are intelligent, educated and aware. Possibly even well supported in your parenting.
Not all parents are. Some are heavily influenced by these ads, and they truly mean to do what is best for their child, and they see this as a way of doing that.
Sometimes we all need to stand up for these mums and dads who are lacking the quality of support and awareness that we have.
Formula is already very normalized in society as demonstrated by MadB and Kaytee's thoughts prior to joining BB; I was another who thought moving to formula was what happened at 6mo before I had DD so I don't agree with flooding the advertising market with a product that will work to support this line of thinking when breastfeeding will be unable to match the exposure. Breastfeeding rates are increasing but they are still low, personally I cannot support something that might compromise this further as I don't believe it is in societies best interests.
Advertising formula will never stop, so why don't the government give some time and $$ into promoting BF and making people realize it's the norm?
( I FF not by choice but I know it's best but I also know that we deserve choice to feed however we see fit)
I educated myself on Breastfeeding. I thought breastfeeding was gross when I was pregnant with my first and my husband convinced to me at least try it. I can't say I enjoyed it but I was different then. I bf and FF at 6 weeks and stopped BF fully when he was 3 months old. and yes I didn't know any better. I educated myself when DS2 was born ill. I wanted nothing more then to offer him the best possible start and for that was BF. So in my opinion (this is not towards people who are unable to bf so no one take any offense please) you choose to do what you want. If people really wanted to BF then they would (once again read last sentence in brackets this is to the parents who "choose FF"):
Breastfeeding is in your face to a certain degree.. It is talked about in birth classes, when you have your bub ect ect.. You see people feeding.. you know it exists. It isn't hard to make things known to yourself.. I hope I am getting my point across here.
I do see where you are coming from with not advertising formula but I don't go and buy a product just because it is advertised. I don't like those toddler supplement things. I think they are a waste of money. I don't use nurofen even though that is shoved in your face when it comes to advertising.. Why not teach parents what to do before resorting to medications.. going off topic a bit but you get what I mean..
So to sum it up.. You choose to buy or do what you want.. you can educate yourself on what is best for baby and family.. I had a friend who BF her first child and hated it so when she had her second child went straight to formula. She didn't feel the need to make excuses and nor did I expect one.. She just made a comment one day when we were together feeding our bubs (19 days apart) me BF her FF.
I'm impressed! I must just be totally uncoordinated/weak in the arms!:
Put it this way I wouldn't be happy if the ABA started suggesting that if you breastfeed you will grow wings and fly... Some of the advertising around for FF is akin to that.
Nourishment for a child, be it natural or not should not be "Sold" because the practices that follow tend to be more about money and less about the benefits of mother and child. As a previous FF'er I can see that. ABA doesn't make money if you chose to BF, neither does WHO. I'm not saying there isn't an agenda. There is, but it's a lot more ethical IMO than that of most of the major formula companies. So this is why I tend to be jaded.
This advert just makes my head hurt... why offend your target audience in the first 10sec and dismiss your product, and then totally do a backflip and put down BF and insinuate your product is better after 12 months age.... which then offends a whole other group of people???!!! As a marketing student i think it's the worst advert ever
Advertising works. That's why it exists. We like to think that we make our own choices, but research shows we are swayed by advertising. Very few formula feeding mums (research shows) choose to formula feed. Most are driven to it, feeling that they have no other option. Because they don't feel their bodies are competent enough to make milk. because they are pressured by family, friends and health professionals or because they feel like their baby should sleep more, grow more etc. They don't choose. some countries have adopted the WHO code and don't allow the advertising of formula. And in some countries health professionals are educated about breastfeeding. What we have doesn't have to be the way it has to be
Actually yeah, completely serious. It makes me sick. A low socioeconomic area, full of immigrants, the poor, uneducated etc...and a poster advertising how much better formula is for your new baby. Wrongtown all the way. I was proud as punch when DH told me what he did. Not to mention it's just plain illegal. There are rules in place for a reason, they're not made willy nilly.:
:clap: well said.:
I read this late last night and just rolled my eyes and thought 'here we go AGAIN'.
From a pro-BF who also dabbled with formula (when all the expressing became too much), these threads are just so boring and quite frankly annoying. So much of this has been said (and argued) before.
Off topic, but why doesn't the WHO advertised bf on tv then? If advertising 'works' (I am not a person who will just go out and but something b/c of an ad on t.v., sure it might make me think but I don't rush out) why doesn't the WHO or ABA etc... advertise bf then? Just wondering... this is not a go at anyone:
Who is going to pay for it?:
Hopefully that disgusting poster was taken down before these poor, uneducated immigrants were scarred for life.
:rolleyes:
Just in answer to this question, the WHO is far from poor and the ABA could run CSAs at no cost.:
I also find nothing wrong with the ad.:
In general I also agree that a healthy balanced diet, fresh air and exercise are the key important elements and that formula isn't nessecary for toddlers. However there are exceptions to the rule - My DS1 was one of these exceptions, where health issues actually forced us to introduce him to formula as a toddler: when he had been breastfed and then put on cows milk prior to this (he self weaned from the breast at 16months). It was actually a real struggle to get a toddler formula that would help with his issues, and which he would willingly drink (most of them being 'flavoured').
But then advertising is really all about convincing people a) they need something they don't really or b)the product does something (or provides something) it doesn't really. So therefore nothing much out there really should be advertised - think of all the totally crap breakky cereals, snack bars, etc that are constantly promoted as healthy when all they are is a pile of sugar.:
I don't particularly like this ad, but I think we as adults should be able to use our brains enough to educate ourselves and not rely on advertising to do it for us.
Haha oh I'm such a racist. Seriously? There were commas between, three separate categories. And yeah, some people did fall into all three. Kinda missed my point I think?:
I think our govt needs to be doing a HELL of a lot more to promote And educate about bf.
I have to say, that comes across a little bit 'ist' - what 'ist' I am not sure, but just because people come from poor or immigrant or 'uneducated' backgrounds does not make them idiotic......I've seen alot of very well educated, rich and australians who make equally poor life choices.:
I agree that educated people can make these choices too. It isn't 'ist' though. It's just not, it's a solid fact, people from lower socioeconomic backgrounds are more likely to FF.
Well, ABA have run CSAs free of charge about 3 times in the last 20 years. CSAs generally run midnight until dawn, and very rarely in prime spots. ABA is a not for profit. The sort of one it takes to run an advertising campaign is out of their reach.
So well said.:
Advertising is not about information - it's about marketing, and yes there are a lot of products which are marketed to us, but not necessarily products which have such an impact on health. And what bites me the most is that this kind of thing (a lot of children's products actually) plays on 'mummy guilt' and the need to do the best thing for your child. Coming from sources that have a vested interest in the choices you make.
The add only annoys me beucase it is so condecending really. Magic powder in a tin to protect my childs immune system? Dosen't make much sense to me but I switch off alot for these things. I get what they are trying to say, but the whole add is just annoying. No kids I know are that clean :D
I'm pro BF but think it's the way they are advertised not so much that they are advertised that annoys me. I would hate to be in a situation where I couldn't BF and I had noone to talk to about forumla becuase it's become the new taboo. I really feel for anyone that has been placed in that situation becuase to me that is just as bad as being advised against BF for one reason or another and feeling totally lost. There has to be a way that both can co exist, because people need to feed their babies regardless of circumstances, however sadly unless there is formula produced by not for profit organisations I don't see this becoming a reality sadly.
I understand the post about PZ DH reporting the store for having a FF poster up. Some companies have an atrocious record for targeting people in certain socio economic and low levels of education groups, both here and over seas.
The LBGT movement gets CSAs in primetime by celebrities... if you've seen those adverts on Ch.10.:
So maybe there is something we can do for similar exposure?
I was thinking about this more and I think that in many ways lack of factual information about formula feeding (not advertising necessarily) actually works to the benefit of some formula companies.
With no real information on what to look for in a formula or how to pick it, or even what is available, parents have to pick by looking on the shelves. I think that price plays a huge part in this. Parents who want the best for their kids would assume that the more expensive formulas are better and so would choose to buy based on price only. It's a whole mentality about getting something quality because we are paying for it.
Advertising would not stop this from happening but I think a lack of general information and it being the only viable alternative to BFing means that formula companies can mark their product sky high and parents will buy it assuming that high price means that best product for their babies.
Feel free to disagree, because I am interested in what other's think but I picked formula based on price. To me the cheaper ones didn't seem 'as good as' the more expensive ones and it didn't even occur to me at the time, that the shelf price is probably designed that way. I have heard cosmetics companies say that they give their products high price tags if they want to be valued in the market because people think it is cheap and nasty if they aren't paying top dollar - though cosmestics cost nothing to make. I think formula companies are the same.
Just a thought anyway :)
Completely agree JM.
FWIW my DD absolutely LOVES that toddler milk :lol: She doesn't have a very balanced diet only because she wont eat anything so she has up to 4 bottles a day and is FINALLY starting to gain weight. I honestly don't feel comfortable introducing cows milk to her yet and the formula works great for her.
What i find annoying and ill be completely honest is the lack of trust in other parents to make good choices for their children, yes there are some parents who probably don't know as much as others but they aren't all completely clueless, just because a friend of a friends SIL (for example) chose not to BF doesn't mean she's an uneducated silly billy she made a choice that will work for her and her baby, who knows maybe there is an issue that shes not willing to share. I just see so many comments that i think "hang on thats not fair" i know myself that i HATE hearing other people mouthing off my parenting choices or comments of "your DD is so little you know if you BF she wouldn't be so skinny" that doesn't help me as a parent and its a comment i dont want to hear. Anyways don't have to like or agree with me just adding in my two cents.
I agree with you Little Miss Summer. As I said it's the whole "I educated myself and know whats best but what about the other poor people who didn't do that and are forced by advertising?"It's condescending and I think a bit patronising. The whole comment about the poster in the store because it was a low socioeconomic area. I must admit- my reaction to the comments was "Well, they can't have the ads telling them what to do but thank god they've got pz and her hubby telling them what to do.- I know that this might sound very unfair to you PZ and I understand where you're coming from but it just reeks (and other posters as well) of the whole "nanny state" thing that you can't trust other parents to make decisions so you'd better make them for everyone.
Also- if everyone who stated that they are so passionate about this donated money to the ABA, I'm sure they would be able to afford an advertising campaign. Just saying.
It's not about trust. It's about fair education. If all people are seeing is formula in the supermarket, mums bottle-feeding in the street and posters in their stores (which are not meant to be there), what do you think a possibly vulnerable feeling, uninformed person is going to choose? Heck, I AM informed and I STILL contemplated running out and grabbing a tin at 2am in those times I was struggling. If on top of struggling, I believed my BM was somehow inferior to formula (which was what the poster was inferring, that the formula would get your baby settled and sleeping through the night) then ofcorse I would switch to formula in a heartbeat, thinking it was better. Gosh, education is not condescending. If having correct, proper, and unbiased (selling a product for $$$) information is patronising...well, I don't even know what to say to that. It's not patronising to see people who ARE uneducated, ARE in a lower sociodemographic and ARE more likely to FF, and be concerned on top of that about a poster in a pharmacy window peddling untrue information about a product owned by a company who only seeks to make a profit, and couldn't give a rats about your child's welfare (Nestle, in case you were wondering). Eh. The right thing was done. I feel a little disheartened that so many of you think that is somehow condescending. I assure you DH an myself are not. Just concerned and angry at the owner for trying to take advantage. The area I'm talking about is Sunshine, btw. If they were stocking honest and true informational leaflets about FF, with info on all the brands etc, along with BF info, that would be awesome. That's true information. An advertisement should not be what you are basing a decision like feeding your child on, and it happens far too much. There's a huge difference between making a choice uninformed and making that same choice with all the info on hand. That was my point which seems to have been overlooked.
I do get your point PZ- I really do and I agree to a certain point. I agree that the information/publicity is very one sided. I guess I have a sore spot when it comes to people (do-gooders) trying to make decisions for the rest of us. I'm not just talking about this issue now- I'm talking in general. I may not be explaining myself very well, I'm having trouble putting my thoughts into words. I guess the other thing is- you can disagree with the advertising, you can complain to the companies but I think it's the storming into a store threatening to report the owner (who was probably a poor, uneducated immigrant just trying to make some money for his/her family) that has upset some people.
I'm just trying to get my point across- as you did so well last post PZ. I completely agree with your last sentence and I know I went off tack there a bit and missed the main point you were trying to make.
My problem with the ad is it is not truthful. Baby Milk Action and the IBFAN (who's aim is to protect formula feeding mothers as well as support breastfeeding) have been tirelessly fighting the formula companies for years about unsubstantiated claims that their formulas support the immune system. To me it is like saying that a certain aftershave will make you able to pick up hotter women! However advertising aftershave is a completely different world to advertising infant nutrition and telling parents that formula supports their immune system when it doesn't. Don't mums who formula feed deserve the truth and proper information to help them decide, rather than lies??
I think the problem with trying to fight claims like this in advertising is proving that they are outright lying. Formula DOES support the immune system- so does air. Just not to a huge degree, and not as well as BF. Sayint formula supports the immune system better than BF would be a lie. Saying that it supports it without giving definite figures/degrees is not a lie. Yes it's misleading and yes it's sneaky but it's advertising- and that's what they do. Their job is not to provide information- their job is to sell a product. Advertising uses as one of it's main tools the ability to manipulate information/facts to support their product.
I think more would be achieved by picketing government etc about advertising/promoting bf rather than complaining about ads for formula. Technically the ad is doing/claiming nothing wrong. Especially since they begin the ad with "we all know that breastfeeding is best for baby"
Just Me - that is a very good point and it sort of follows onto a point where someone was talking about it being patronising to say that lower socioeconomic are targeted to buy formula.
Unfortunately in the past generations there was a belief that only the rich could afford formula and only the poor breastfed. I have heard older women discussing a breastfeeding mum and saying things like 'surely she can afford formula' My dad still boasts about being a 'Cow and Gate' baby (a UK formula brand) because Cow and Gate used to be fed to the Queen's children and had a crown on the lid to advertise the fact and was more expensive (and still is today.) So where I live in the UK there is a bit of status attached to the brand of formula you use.
On the other hand in a completely contradictory way there is also a status/class association with formula feeding and breastfeeding here in the UK. I have heard of women talking about breastfeeding mothers as posh, middle class, stuck up etc. One friend of mine while quietly trying to get her newborn baby to latch, had a stream of abuse hurled at her from a mum in the postnatal ward because 'that posh b**** is looking down on me with her breastfeeding' She had never spoken to my friend but she assumed that they were in entirely different social classes because my friend was breastfeeding. Even recently there was a documentary about breastfeeding and a group of young mums and mums to be said they wouldn't breastfeed because only 'posh/ middle class /older women breastfeed.'
So how is it patronising to say that these people don't need proper formula information? Surely it is patronising not to give them truthful, factual information about formula rather than the lies and misconceptions that are being passed around by those of the older generation and the formula companies.
Glenny - according to the code they are not allowed to have any unsubstantiated facts. So it is not a case of degree of truth. This is not just run of the mill advertising where anything goes and it is up to the consumer to 'buyer beware' This is infant nutrition and there is a code that needs to be followed.
And there is an argument that probably belongs in another thread about the whole 'breast is best' advertising. It doesn't work. Promoting breastfeeding does not work while formula companies lie about their product. Everyone knows breast is best...what they don't know is what formula actually is.
Just as a side note...my DH strolled casually into the pharmacy (I think he was buying my haemorrhoid cream after DD lol!!) noticed the poster, and told the guy it should not be there. He said tough, DH said he would report him. The guy was Australian...not that that should even make a difference.
I too don't like the 'breast is best' campaign. There needs to be something more information-based, not just a sweeping statement.