How true Jennifer: I would dearly love to hear that milk banks have become so successful that there is enough for every mother that can't BF her baby and that artifical milk is a thing of the past and infact banned.
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How true Jennifer: I would dearly love to hear that milk banks have become so successful that there is enough for every mother that can't BF her baby and that artifical milk is a thing of the past and infact banned.
I agree that it would be wonderful in the future Jen and Bath...
I too have to spread the love around Mayaness...
Just a thought... Wouldn't it be wonderful if communities understood the necessity of breast milk so much that milk banks were not needed... Wild idea I know! But I have by the nature of my personality and my strong community beliefs forged strong, loving and supportive relationships with other women. As said before sharing milk was not an issue... I haven't time to read back but someone mentioned that it wouldn't be feasible to ask a milk donor to abstain from certain foods.. I have to say to that that I have done this - it to me is not a biggy. A baby needs milk - I don't have cuppas whilst supplying my milk... I don't have dairy...
This (at the risk of getting a little off target) brings up for me the need for us to see that we are all in this together. We are a community - a village. What an amazing world if we just knew that there were all of these other women (and men/families) to lean upon when it's tough. Having a premature baby is absolutely gut wrenchingly tough. Boobs supply milk on demand - it's not really hard to express after each feed for a baby in need.
I know that this isn't about prems - but I cannot let the opportunity pass to say that premature babies need breastmilk - it is incredibly important. I put off allowing my baby to fed formula until I could feed her breastmilk (either mine or someone elses). If you are pregnant you need to be aware of the gift breastmilk is to a prem. It matters not much what that mother has eaten - it is still better. (of course let's assume the donor is not drinking a scotch with every meal and rolling hooters at lunchtime ;)). Of course medications also need to be looked at too.
Breastmilk is a bodily fluid like no other. It is milk for babies - as such it is complete, beautiful and alive. Share it around, make contact with other mothers in your community and offer your milk if it's needed. It is such a beautiful gift.
We need to get out of our houses, yards and create villages. In a village my boobs ar eyour babies boobs - my stash of ebm in the freezer is to be shared amongst those that are struggling to feed for whatever reason...
Villages are imperative. Necessary.
Flowerchild, I would actually trust you if you said you would abstain for me! But I have had friends offer to help with milk while drinking a 2L bottle of cola all by herself - and admit she wouldn't refrain even though just one little square of chocolate set DS off and I couldn't even have a normal coffee. Which is why I wouldn't trust the general populance.
I must admit that DS was probably given formula before I was given him and I was told that if he didn't have formula they'd take him away, against my wishes, and give it to him anyway (which is why I think they did it in the first instance, that and a newborn babe not being hungry for 24 hours is a bit unusual, even if his mother had drugs that stopped him breathing), so I'd not really see the difference between formula and EBM - it would still be me being told "you're not good enough for a baby you think looks healthy and happy so we have to take over, incompetent woman."
Maybe nicer midwives would bypass this problem altogether? For me, at any rate.
I think it would be a sad day when a woman was 'forced', due to the banning of abm (because honestly, in your perfect world there would be no abm would there?), to use another woman's milk if she didn't want to. I think a lot of the bigger issues are being missed here that extend further than simply a choice between ebm and abm - would you force a mother who was a devout Jehovah's Witness to use someone elses' body fluid? Or would you force anyone to use it who had concerns, religous or otherwise to use it? That's something to consider when tossing about Utopian fantasies of a world with no formula kwim?
I think milk banks have their place, although I do have to question the sterility of it Barb (a few pages back) as once it leaves the breast it is no longer sterile, so it isn't a given that what you are getting is of a good enough quality to guarantee the babe does not get sick from it kwim? Once something has to go through a process, there is a risk of failure of those processes and I would hate to think that there could be a nation-wide recall of breast milk that was sullied during production. This is all theorising of course, but I like to think outside the square when it comes to stuff like this and think of all possibilities. If it were ever to reach commercial proportions then I don't know how it could be 1 sustained in the long term - you are talking loads of women here expressing more than they would ever need to cope with the apparent growing demand for it, and 2 how will these women be compensated for it? Will they receive a financial incentive to donate milk and be a regular provider of milk for milk banks and will they eventually be exploited for it like the dairy industry has been of recent times? Its not that much of a leap to link the two as they are providing the same product.
I found it interesting to read in the Daily tele on Tuesday about 'black market milk' where women who are choosing not to try to bf are searching high and low to find women that can provide the bm for them. Now is this *right*? There is just something intrinsically wrong with a woman who can't be bothered trying to bf her own baby herself from birth, but yet has the common sense to know that breast milk is the best nourishment for her child, so she would happily part with her money to ensure that the child gets it. And is it right for a woman to have to go to the effort to keep a plentiful supply and take time to express and store milk for someone who simply couldn't be bothered? It just wouldnt sit right with me.
Rosehip - I don't get angry often - actually rarely and reading your post I felt angry. I pictured you all sore and with the Aura of birth and being treated with such inhumanity. I am so sorry that a fellow health care provider did this. It is wrong. There is no right in how your Liebling was given food not approved by you - it's wrong. :hug:
I don't liken milk banks to the dairy industry Trill - but I did chuckle out loud at the likeness I guess.
I liken milk banks to blood banks - we happily trot along to donate 3 bags of 0+ 'cos after all we have plenty of blood and what we don't replenishes give it 24hours... Nobody does it for financial gain - we do it as an act of kindness and compassion. I think for me that' swhat I hope to get across here. That sharing my breastmilk is an act of simple kindness - much like donating blood - without the sharp *****!
Milk remains sterile provided it is expressed into a sterile container. It is at risk of contamination - absolutely but by it's vibrant nature it's a pretty sure bet to be just a okay - so long as it is expressed into clean containers and refrigerated / frozen.
I actually personally like the Utopian outlook - it's aiming high and for me that is important. I don't think it's out there to think that communities of women will gather to help their 'Sister" feed her baby. It's not as I have such a community and know of many who do - especially homebirth communities. Interestingly I got a phone call just this afternoon (gotta love synchronicity) to help a mothrer at our school needing milk. She is sick in hospital and the baby needs to be put to the breast. I couldn't help but a text just confirmed someone with the right goods has come forward.
It needs to come out of the closet. Breast milk is a bodily fluid but it is not like my saliva or my mucous. It is a living gold for human babies/children. JW's I am almost certain would not have an issue with sharing BM - their rules are blood products as blood is sacred... I'd be surprised if that was against their faith - but of course I may be wrong.
Either way - I hope that nobody has suggested that EBM should be forced on a baby - just that it not be so outrageous a thought or option.
I really love that this thread has helped to have some of these issues debunked and discussed and looked at from different perspectives...
I love that we do that here on BB - we all come at the world from differing angles - and I fully accept that my angle is often Utopian!:D
I don't know of any group who for religious reasons cannot use the ebm of another mother. JWs are certainly not in this category - you're right FC, it's only blood and blood products. But I could be wrong about other groups!
i thought breast milk was a blood product :think:
ETA by the way deb i love your post!
A blood product is defined as being from a venous or arterial vessel... No it is not a blood product. It is a bodily fluid... Just like your wee or your snot or your cm... Sorry but wanted to draw a picture. :rofl: It is a rather graphic pictuew... :lol:
ETA: Definition of Blood
Blood: The familiar red fluid in the body that contains white and red blood cells, platelets, proteins, and other elements. The blood is transported throughout the body by the circulatory system. Blood functions in two directions: arterial and venous. Arterial blood is the means by which oxygen and nutrients are transported to tissues while venous blood is the means by which carbon dioxide and metabolic by-products are transported to the lungs and kidneys, respectively, for removal from the body.
I'm only supposing that there could be - I don't claim to know the ins and outs of every religion, but it is something to consider. I say forced upon, because a page or two back, there were calls for abm to be made illegal, now wouldn't that then *force* you to use ebm, simply because you had no other choice?
Not everyone has the luxury of being surrounded by a village/family that can give BM if you need it, so there will always be a need for abm to some extent. I totally get that you give it because you have it to give, but how long before it is commercialised? Because it will happen. ABM was initially introduced as a last resort option and look at how ingrained it has become. Personally I would think it would be morally wrong to not give some sort of compensation to women who would give ebm at a commercial level. It wont be long before someone starts to cash in on it and why should the source of it miss out? It is one thing to donate to a milk bank for the purpose of using it for prem and ill babies, but if this is a trend that catches on and you have more and more women wanting bm for their babes, then it is only fair and right that the ones providing it in the first place get something for the time it takes to do it.
In trying to find the psot wanting abm banned I came across a post suggesting that we don't question what the cows eat. My answer would be that we SHOULD! I do! I suppose in a way that's what a lot of this discussion is about. That we need to think about what we put in ours and our children's mouths... Where it comes from - even the milk we putin our tea comes from a girl in the paddock that may or may not be dipped in poisons thus excreting it into her milk, injected with antibiotics that may or may not be excreted into her milk, fed feed that has been sprayed etc et. All of that goes into formula AND every day cows milk.
I agree Trill that we all don't have a village - another point - to gently encourage the formation of a village of like minded folk to help you raise your families.
They don't come from luck - they come from intention - just as they did in our grandmothers/great mothers days... WE can have it again... :hug:
Deb, farming practices have changed so much in the past decade that we are really not the bad guys we are made out to be.:
I think I've been misunderstood Trillian. I don't think farmers are bad guys. However, I do know that there are pesticides, insecticides and sprays used in many commercial farms. When cows milk is tested it has content of chemicals. I personally choose not to expose my self to that. Many people do and it's a choice - my point is that ABM uses cows milk that may or may not have these as trace elements. Likewise EBM that is donated - it's not controlled.
I have strong feelings about farming practices & I can see that they clash with yours - I live smack in the middle of a dairy and I choose not to buy milk that is not organically farmed. However, the way the "girls" in our surrounding paddocks are treated is kind and compassionate. It's the additives that worry me. I worry that there are additives in everything from the fabric in our clothes, the cleaners in our kitchens and bathrooms, often the water we drink, the juice and milk in our fridges etc et. I worry about that both personally and as a society that we are being immersed in additives...
I love my local farmers - I love the kind way they treat their animals. I dont like some of their practices but I never would think of them as bad guys...
I just want to be clear - I did not mean to offend you or any other farmer... :hug:
None taken :) I think it's just that generally people assume that things haven't changed at all.
Anyway, I agree, if you are concerned about what you consume, or wear, then you are going to endeavour to source food and clothing items that support your ideology. I think the issue with ebm milk banks is that this is relatively new territory in this country as far as consumption outside of a hospital setting is concerned. I think there needs to be more research and testing done to prove that it is 100% safe and that the quality is not altered during the pasturization stage. For me it's just not enough to take at face value that it is and scoffed at when I suggest otherwise kwim? I think that's what the concern is for many people that if you can't provide, then you want something that is going to replicate that almost identically and that means having ebm of a quality that is very very high.
This then begs the question of why so much trust is put in artificial milks.. which are far removed from the real thing. They are rarely questioned for their safety & sterility. Yet we are demanding THE highest quality for real breastmilk?:
I find it interesting that even 'lower quality' breastmilk is more nutritious than formula. A malnourished mother in a 3rd world country will still produce milk better than formula (not that the formula companies would ever tell you this!!). It's interesting to read that very few components of the breastmilk are affected by her malnutrition.
Commercialisation of any milk bank would attract the wrong kind of 'donators' and I would hope it wouldn't ever go there. Left as donations only, then it's people who are passionate about breastfeeding and would at that time be feeding their own babies and looking after themselves while feeding that would inclined to donate. So voluntary donations already weeds out a lot of the "nasties".
I think that we need to start somewhere. When I was in NICU there were so so so many women - demographically they were very young. They tried so damn hard to make their boobies produce milk. The stress, sometimes illness and sadly the lack of support made it tough. I saw babies die from gut problems that are related to the ABM - we know this. Formula is usually given as a last resort in NICU because of the problems it can cause.
I know that we walk around exposed to chemicals, radiation and pollution every day. What I am passionate about is decreasig my and my childrens (and other children's) exposure to this. A way to do this is by decreasing exposure in my home.
EBM is a better choice for prems than formula - and I think milk banks will be like blood banks in time to come. That the energy exchange will be all that is needed. Like ther eis cals over the radio for A+ there will be calls for more EBM in the milk bank. Yes, you will get some problems, with diet,with medications, alcohol in some but in general I think it's gonna be a dang side better than the options that many women now have.
We don't have options for our NICU babies in most hospitals. We have to either express it ourselves or risk the effects on our beloved little dots in their plastic cribs. It's a toughy.
Liz yyou raised excellent poimts. From an ethical perspective I would believe it extremely unlikely that there would be payment for breastmilk. Just as we won't allow payment for blood domatioms. Our medical ethicists would have an absolute field day with that one. I would be blown down iwth a feather if it were allowed...
I too find it confronting that we as a society accept the safety of formula but are so cagey about EBM. Especially when the additives and purity of ABM is not always clear...
Probably not the right place to be asking this... Does it become less of a problem with not-so-premie bubs? In the SCN it was put to me that formula was the best option for Sam with his low blood sugar levels and that it would be best to give him formula through an NGT rather than put him on a glucose drip. It still frustrates me that they didn't send someone then and there to help me try to express, but waited over 24 hours before the subject even came up!:
BW
It's the perfect place to ask... :hug:
The problem is usually immediate - so your Sam is fine. My Eva had some formula on fingers post birth because her BSL was so low and even though I fed constantly she just wasn't getting enough colostrum.
This thread isn't about mothers feeling bad for feedig their babies ABM - we all do what we have to do at the time. I made the choice as did you Butterfly not to have glucose administered IV. My baby needed something to increase her bSl quickly. It worked - she's now 5 and has the tummy lining that wouldn't know the difference.
I don't think anyone in here thinks that ABM is better - or that if you use ABM you are lesser of a mother. What it highlights is that women have no other choice for their babies if there are no milk banks OR supportive women who will donate EBM.
In an ideal world BW I would get a call from you and whizz up there and give you my breast milk for Sam. That can and does happen and we can choose to build that type of village. It's not goig to drop in our laps. We have to work at it.
You are doing a great job of mothering your son BW - don't second guess your decisions. Reflect on them as that is what makes us different from the cows in the paddock - but don't second guess. He is thriving - your breasts are doing a great job as are you. :hug:
Liz, I guess it boils down to it being the only option you have if you find yourself in that situation. I don't trust it, but what else can I do? Can't get milk out of breasts that didn't produce it and like I said earlier, not everyone has the luxury of endless lactating women at their beck and call to give them milk on a casual basis, let alone a full time one. I never did - not once over the past 8.5 years have I ever had someone who could give me breast milk. And don't forget that even though it is not on the top of their list, even the WHO sanctions its use. They aren't that foolish to not see that it does have its place - far too big a place atm for sure, but it is there. I think if women had a choice between ebm and abm, then why can't she be assured that the ebm is of the highest quality, otherwise where is the incentive to choose it over the abm? see what I mean?
And maybe if there was an incentive to donate, there wouldn't be such a huge shortage of blood would there? Same as with ebm banks- not everyone who is lactating would be able to donate, or even willing to donate. I'm sure there would be women who would not entertain the idea of donating milk, just as there are those that choose not to donate blood.
I think a lot of the cagey-ness comes from the situation arrising from the need for it in the first place. If you have a situation where a mum can't continue to bf for a short time so chooses to get friends to give her ebm, then thats a completely different situation to someone who really struggled with bf from the word go only to have it not work out and is carrying tons of mother guilt - to suggest to someone like that that she must use ebm from another woman, well!, you may as well just slap her in the face, because that just adds to the guilt kwim? And I think that needs to be respected a little more than it has been in this thread. If someone says they do not want to use it, so be it, that's their choice and I don't feel that is being respected enough.
The problem with paid suppliers of blood/organs and likewise breastmilk is that it is abused. Poverty causes people to give their kidneys, their blood, their milk.
I understand that I see things differently - how I see it is there is an energy in givimg - in helping another human being. That is actually how blood and organ donation work. It is the only way that breast milk banks will work well.
I didn't know until now that you also struggled with breastfeeding Trillian. I guess that is what discussion is about - throwing around opinions, thoughts, beliefs and ideas. Some we won't like, some we will. Some will resonate, some will strike a chord. Without open discussion though we learn little about other people and what makes them tick.
I would like to know more from Bathsheba on what she meant - or if she could enlarge on her comment. Maybe there is more to what she meant? I don't know of course. Just throwing it into the ring.
ABM is a great thing if you need to use it. But right now there is no choice. I am a lover of choice!
Big hugs Trillian... :hug:
Dont get me wrong, it would be wonderful if it were to become a mainstream alternative, but it's early days and I just dont think the govt has any idea what they could be in for if this takes off as an alternative to abm. I mean, its such a struggle to even get a milk bank in every city to cater for prem and ill baby needs, so no doubt it would be well into the future, but I would like to think that if my own daughters could not bf that there is that option available to them just as easily as it is to walk into a supermarket and buy abm.
Hi,
This is a great discussion. It interests me that there is a demand that EBM be of the highest quality, untainted etc. But no similar call for formula to be sterile and untainted. The marketing companies have surely sold us a pup on that one - that we believe formula, the chemically alterest milk of another animal is the norm, and we wonder if human milk "might" be as good!
We;ve talked about what the mothers choice is - what about the baby's choice. What would the baby want to be fed?
Processing:
Scrubbing
Each pasteurization team member thoroughly scrubs her hands with antimicrobial soap before putting on gloves; gloves are always used when handling milk as part of the pasteurization process.
Pouring
Milk from a donor mother is carefully transferred from milk storage containers to glass flasks.
Mixing & Pooling
Each Pool (which usually includes milk from 3 to 5 donors) is thoroughly mixed to ensure an even distribution of milk components.
Filling Bottles
Four ounce glass bottles are filled with milk prior to pasteurization
Pasteurizing with the Holder Method
Milk is gently heated in a shaking water bath using the Holder Method of pasteurization. Pasteurization eliminates bacteria while retaining the majority of the milk's beneficial components
Lab Testing
Milk samples are taken during the pasteurization process and cultured to check for bacterial growth. Contaminated milk is discarded.
Pasteurized Milk
Milk is now ready for freezing and storage. It can be dispensed after samples are cultured and show no bacteria growth. Milk is shipped frozen overnight to hospitals and individual recipients at home.
Human Milk Banking Association of North America
1500 Sunday Drive, Suite 102, Raleigh, NC 27607 - (919)787-5181
? 2005-2009 Jibboom, LLC
All Rights Reserved
I am glad you replied Barb - I too am concerned at the trust given to ABM and the distrust given to EBM. Above I copied and pasted from a website from North America.
They have happily banked their breastmilk with much success it would seem. It is done by donation - as they have even stricter medical ethics there than here...
What has troubled me over night is the feelings that some posters have that it's hard to get someone to donate you their milk. I gently suggest that be turned into a can do rather than cannot statement. It is possible - and you don't need endless lactating women. Just 1 or 2. It can be done.
In my situation I have lactated beautifully - eventually! I had a rather hideous birth with my first with a failed epidural and a resultant epidural headache. ABM was never going to be an option for me - I was super determined to feed my baby with my breasts. I was very educated about the benefits. I literally couldn't sit up after she was born due to the headache that remained undiagnosed until a week post birth. I used nipple shields so that she could attatch lying down. It was horrendous. It truly was. My supply was low as a side effect of the shields. I did it really really really hard for about 3 months. I expressed after every feed for 3 months just to get my supply up to speed. She fed continually as my supply was low. I was in a homebirth community ad was offered milk but I wanted to get it right. Anyway I idid. Eventually but it was a hard and painful journey. I had affirmations on every available wall - I constantly muttered to myself: "my breasts are full of life giving milk"!
My point being that it was really hard and I know how difficult breastfeeding can be. I don't want anyone thinking that it was all a walk in the park - I want to establish I truly get how hard it can be. However, I also know how beneficial it is to babies and how important it is for babies to have a choice too!
I remember the little trisomy 21 babe we expressed for - his mother was heartbroken that she couldn't produce enough milk for her son. She also knew that for her ABM was a poor cousin that couldn't give her sick little fella the very best chances. It was a slap in the face that she couldn't supply enough milk for her child - I remember well her torment. However she was able to choose the next best thing. I only wish that for every baby.
We have to stop the belief that artificial is best and of high quality just because Mr Nestle says it is! He is selling his can! Dach pointed out that we don't know if the milk is manufactured on equipment that produces nuts etc. We also don't know the pesticide, sLE, herbicide content. Yet we believe it's okay as it comes in a sealed tin!
Thank the Universe for ABM as it can help - but it is used with much more frequency than is good for our little people. This is NOT blame placed at mothers. It is damn hard being a mother in our society. We are not treated as the Goddesses that we truly are. We are not surrounded by sisters, mothers and aunts so that we can establish our breastfeeding. We are often told by our "sisters" - I was up and walking around 10 minutes post birth". I never think I am in the midst of a wondorous thing when I hear that - for it makes me sad. Because we are to rest - to snuggle, to be alone in the dark with the arms of our loving man to support us, with strokes from our sisters. We need quiet falling in love time. Just as we don't make love to our men in a bright room with noise and visitors and food trolleys - nor should we "make love" to our babes in such an environment.
Wehen we put our babes to our breast - I dont know about you but I feel love, gratitude, joy, thankfulness... Every time.
If milk banks can have a living food available to babies that need it - they have that rsonance of love in the milk! It's alive. (has anyone read the "messages in water") I know that is out there for some but I truly believe that.
We have got choices. There are not many women who woldn't express for another woman's child if she could. I really believe that. Because us mothers are amazing - we will do all we can. I gently urge us as a community of AMAZING women to step outside of our circle and see HOW WE CAN rather than how we can't. Even on here - you know we have prems born here in BB land - maybe we can start by expressing for them - we need to believe in Utopia! Because without a belief that there can be change it aint gonna happen!
As with many discussions on BB this has come back to the Village - it is up to us to build a village, with like minded women and men - for whom 15 minutes expressing 4-5 times a day is a gift given with love... From a mother who has accepted anothers milk (granted I didn't need it as just having the pressure off me to produce - allowed my milk to come in)
I still would like Bath to enlarge on what she meant - but for me trusting in the milk our bodies make is a far safer bet than on a can. Not withstanding that sometimes it is absolutely needed that can - just putting out there that why do we trust a can before the milk our female bodies manufacture for ours (or others!) babies.
I would love to see a day that AMB was "canned" as our milk banks were full! I see in the US the EBM is by prescription and couriers deliver it frozen to homes and hospitals. Wouldn't it be wild if Mr Nestle had to take up a new venture - imagine if every lactating woman donated 1 feed per day to the bank? I think it would be amazing!
We all make our decisions based on what's the best for us at the time - this isn't about that - it's about looking to the future and making the milk that nurtures our societies children the best possible when a mother cannot produce it for her self... :hug:
Oh Deb, what a beautiful post. So full of hope and 'can do'. I love it :hug:
Just regarding this and a previous post about the milk bank requesting prem milk..:
Does it really matter what sort of breastmilk the prem baby receives? I appreciate that our bodies produce special milk for our prems, but really, if it was a choice between say my "toddler breastmilk" and a formula that is the same as what an older baby sucks down, surely the breastmilk would still be better?
Would, say, my breastmilk at this stage be acceptable to donate to a fellow mum with a newborn/prem?
I can tell you now, if I have another prem, and I express the unbelievable amounts I was doing last time, I will be seriously looking at ways to get that prem milk to other prem babies. I don't know if there's a milk bank around here tho? And the chances of me actually knowing someone at the same time to personally offer it to are pretty small.
I also think it's a really tough subject to broach. I mean when I was in hospital with Kayla and filling up the freezer with my breastmilk, there were other mums with their bub in SCN that I got to know a bit, who were resorting to formula because they were struggling so much.. how on earth do you offer for them to have some of what's in the freezer without them taking offense or feeling guilty?
I see it here on BB in the punching bag threads and the like, people JUMP to be offended by things. It's tough to break through the mum vs mum coz people are so sensitive about things like this. Instead of seeing it as someone trying to help or make suggestions, so many people take it as an attack on their own efforts. Just read all the MIL threads LOL... and see how sensitive people are to offers of help and how they take it as an attack on their parenting!
Awww I agree Liz - sometimes it's hard to speak your truth when others get defensive. However, I think it is absolutely necessary to speak our truth - but kindly.
I actually took a while to press send with my above post as I didn't want to cause any defensive reaction. However, I think it's important to continue to discuss difficult issues even when they press our buttons. Otherwise we stay firmly in our circle and can't see anything but our own viewpoint.
I think if you just kindly offer: "you know I seem to have more milk than I need right now - if you would like you can have some of mine"... If that is offensive than so be it - but mostly when we act from a heart space it's pretty hard for another to behave angrily.... :hug:
I think I'd have trouble giving my bub someone else's breast milk. It's like I eat lamb, but the thought of kangaroo I dont like... IYKWIM, just a psychological thing. Also my kids have allergies and intolerance's and DD2 and DS1 have both had a really hard time with my; breastmilk. They had breastmilk jaundice to start with, and then reacted to everything I ate and drank. Im currenlty not allowed have dairy/cocoa/eggs/soy. I would therefore not know what is in someone' else's milk and thus not be willing to use it.
Im not anti formula even though I've never used it for my children, but my nephew is a picture of health (way more so than my kids) and he was premmie and formula fed from the beginning.
It would be nice to be offered the choice but it's totally an individual decision. As for donating, I'd love to,but like blood Im not allowed as I was in the UK at the wrong time! Such a pity they can't test for mad cows because they're missing out on ALOT of blood being donated.
I think Liz, and trillian, have both made very valid points there. IRL, I don't know any other mother who wouldn't think I was just plain weird if i offered her my EBM for her baby. Before we can get any kind of Utopian village structure happening, women need to be more educated about the absolute goodness of BM and the somewhat dodginess of formula. Most of the women i know haven't been presented with the kind of information most of us in this discussion have- and if they have, it has been associated with the guilt of not bf'ing 'perfectly' or their milk not being 'good enough', or it's simply been overwhelmed by the mammoth amount of information that new mothers are given, the stresses a newborn baby can place on a person (and that probably comes form our lack of a supportive female communtiy as well). The only reason I know what I do about bf'ing is the research that i've taken upon myself to do, and not everyone has the time or inclination to do that. The only way for any kind of village structire to happen is for our society to reach a point where breastfeeding in the norm and formula a very last resort. Most of the mothers I know IRL would never question giving their baby formula over EBM. If i needed EBM for my baby, the only place I would feel comfortable asking for it would be on BB :lol:
Also seconding Liz's point of- wouldn't 'toddler' bm still be easier to digest and more nutritious than formula, no matter what the age of the baby? Not being facetious (sp?), I'm quite curious about this one.
In answer to the premmie breast milk/toddler breast milk. Barb Glare would be best to ask but I really think breast milk would still be a superior option than ABM.
If you don't know women in your physical community that feel the way you do - join a breastfeeding support group or a homebirth support group. You will find many likeminded women there.
I disagree that most people don't educate themselves - I think many do but because our society is set up as such that we live insular and separate lives we don't share this information as readily. The change has to start somehwere - so you could be the change!
I have lived in 2 communities since becoming a mother and have found a large and varied group of likeminded women in both. I went searching, I joined groups - it's the only way to make connection by intention first.
I must have misundersstood but I don't think Liz was suggesting she doesn't have likeminded women in her physical life? Just that she wouldn't know how to offer her milk to another without offending?
I am answering quickly as it's bath time... But willl be back later... :hug:
Actually, my breasts don't work at all. But I'm hopefull that they will next time if we can remove premie baby and SCN from the equation and have things a bit more relaxed and not need that God-forsaken pump!:
BW
I don't think the prem milk v the toddler milk would make much of a difference in the scheme of things would it? If it is going to a milk bank to be processed before use, then aren't separating it out are they? Otherwise you would need different categories of milk for each stage of infancy and toddlerhood.
That's what I would have thought too Trillian, that it all goes into a big vat and is processed hehe. Maybe not?
I asked the question because the milkbank specifically asked for prem milk.
I *think* the Mercy milk bank will only be accepting milk from mums with babies of a certain age ie. under 12 months. Don't quote me on that though ;)
ETA I think the preference for prems would definitely be premmie BM, but I'm sure other BM is considered almost as good ;)
FC I wasn't actually complaining there, just making a point along the lines of what Liz had said- sharing EBM is just not something that would generally come up amongst your average group of women, even if they were in need (say, a mother with a premmie baby)- it is just not a subject people broach freely, either because of fear of offending someone or making them feel inadequate, or because of the general social taboo.
There is the continual message of 'Breast is best' that most women know, and most women know the advantages of breast feeding. However, even amongst the handful of women I know that are pro breastfeeding or long term bf'ers, they would still offer their baby a formula feed instead of someone else's milk, and definately instead of someone else's boob, in the case that they couldn't feed in the short term and couldn't express, or at the time of emergency. For most women I know, it wouldn't even occur to them to ask somebody else for milk, or to offer their own. Many mothers in my mother's group believed other mother's milk was inherently unsafe for babies and forumla would be the much preferred option. The concept of sharing milk is just not one that is at the forefront of people's minds, and the taboo associated with it might be enough to make a lot of mother's shun the idea deswpite the benefits to their baby.
Most women don't seem to educate themsleves any further then the concept of 'Breast is best, but formual is safe and trustworthy and the next best thing'. I'm not putting the blame on mums here- most of them aren't offered the information about how bad formula can be compared to BM, most of them aren't offered a communtiy where bf'ing is accepted, refered and shared. The attitude of our society towards formula feeding is not one that promotes questioning of the product, and the concept of bf'ing is a very private one to one most people, iykwim. I'm just saying that for us to have a society that sees BM as a donatable resource and a neccessity, something that can be shared between babies in a time of need, there needs to be a massive shift in the thinking of most people, and the way we think as a society about the concept of nourishing our babies.
i think some difficulty also comes from your own circle of friends - due to DH's age, most of our circle of friends are significantly older and well past BF age - none of them could help us even if they wanted to. yes, i know one person locally who has a bubba she is BF (thanks to meeting on BB!) but i haven't actually "met" her, and would find it very difficult to ask for help in those circumstances. having said that, there are members on BB who, if they had a baby now and needed help with EBM or feeding their baby, i'd travel halfway across the country to be there for them! i would love to be able to help by providing milk to a milk bank if i could, but i don't think there is anything locally
FWIW - my SIL had a premmie (4 weeks) that she was expressing for and had copious amounts of milk (bubba number 3 - her boobies knew how to do their thing!) - a middie asked her "off the record" if she'd be prepared for them to use some of her excess EBM for a set of twins born a couple of weeks early - their mum wanted to BF but her milk just wasn't in. SIL jumped at the chance. she also said if i got sick or anything and needed help with EBM she would look at options to relactate - but it would have to be something we were in dire need of...
That's sweet of your sister BG!
Thanks for the great discussion all! So many good points, particularly on how much we take for granted about the safety of abm (let alone so many other things we consume).
I would donate ebm and use it. I would also feed another child or let someone else feed my ds in an emergency situation. Beyond that I think I'd feel a bit uncomfortable about it, just cause actually breastfeeding is an intimate act between me and my baby.
So yeah, if anyone out my way needs milk - I am a clean nonsmoker....mind you, I don't actually have a pump.
I LOVE this thread, such a fabulous discussion. No, it's more than a discussion, it's an exploration into all the deepest corners of this concept.
FWIW I would donate and accept milk from a milk bank. I would donate and accept unauthorised raw EBM. I would suckle another's baby and allow my baby to suckle another mother. Of course, all depending on the circumstances.
But yes, IRL these issues and situations have just never come up in polite conversation. The ever present, easily accessible formula option is just all too pervading.
I propose a terminology change: what we know as "milk" shall be known as "extracted udder fluid of bovine origin" and "expressed breast milk" shall be known as "human milk". If we can all use these new terms I'm sure it will go a long way to changing the mindset of what society thinks about milks of all kinds. :D
Hehe.. good idea! Cow's milk shouldn't be so normal.. human milk should be!:
:rofl: Epacaris - I loved the bovine milk... Very quirky! :lol:
Firstly BW I now do remember your breast milkstory - I am sorry in all honesty I often and I don't know why this is... Get you mixed up wth BG and this is what happened. My sincere apologies if I upset you in any way. :hug:
LR - my experience has been different. Breastfeeding and birth have always been huge topics in playgroups, homebirth meets and ABA meetings. So, it's certainly been an issue (sharing human milk) that's been discussed.
BG I understand that friends may not be feeding - but joining a group like ABA or even just a first mothers group the discussion can be broached. Education and change happens with us first.
My whole point is that we need to build Villages that don't think feeding a baby human milk from a donor is wierd. Remember in our mothers "day" having a baby in a tub of water would have likely incurred a stint in a psychiatric facility (at least for mine - my mother is almost 70 - I forget I am an "old bird"). We have to remember that a large proportionof our mothers did not feed at the breast as it was "too sexual"... My husbands's mother with all the very best intentions in the world on a doctors suggestion fed him vitamized steak at 6 weeks old!
We cannot afford - especially at this crucial time in human evolution to just say why we can't. For it's yin and yang. For every can't there is a can.
Being courageous in our beliefs but always kind and compassionate in our stand is imperative. The amount of women feeding their babies human milk (thanks Epacaris!) at 6 months is shockingly low... MantaRay and Barb may know the recent stats - if I rattle out what I believe it to be I may embarass myself further! :redface:
There is outrageously negligent support for breastfeeding mothers - in fact for mothers post birth. We are expected to birth our babies under fluroescent lights, often drugged - or in an OT. We are told to 'get up an at em". We go home and continue on struggling to fit this new person into our homes. Our bodies are sore, our hormones raging - the demands are huge. It is an impossible situation and it's shocking that so many of us get through it without a major crisis... We don't many don't get through it without giving up on BF. NOT because we are not great mothers but because we need nurturingin that first 6-12 weeks. We need to think about breasts and baby - we need a VILLAGE.
How many of you had meals arrive on your doorstep after the births of your babies? If you didn't it's not because no body cared - it's because our lives are too busy to build comunity and because we now have a generation of people that are so overloaded we can only focus on what's going on in our yard.
The change happens when we know a new baby has been born - we take a meal. We don't have baby showers we have Blessing Ways - the formation of a group of women who will watch over the mother and her child in the post partum period.
If we don't change the way our society functions our daughters and sons are going to be in a sorry state.
I have that community - not because I am any more special - but because I work at it. My kids know that when a baby is born we arrive with food. Not flowers (tho these may be optional!) Whenever someone is sick - we arrange a food roster, mowing roster, school drop offs. We need to epand our thinking.
It is awkward to say "do you want some of my milk" - say it 3 time and it's not awkward any more. That tin of formula is the best solution in the middle of a dark night when a mother is so tired her body shakes, her nipples are so cracked that the baby chucks up blood streaks and her body still hurts from her birthing. That tin looms large because we have been told it's healthy, sterile and "screened". Many women buy formula and bottles prior to birthing their babies "just in case". The marketers are doing their job well. The newborn cries a lot, fusses at the breast, has difficulty attatching - the CHN suggests a bottle - or your MIL does or your sister or friend. We are talking marketing that plays at our heart strings - because we will do ANYTHING for this new little person.
This thread is far more than EBM and would you donate. It's about how we can support mothers so that they have the best possible chance of feeding their babies at their breast or break down the barriers and feed them someone elses.
For goodness sake we suck in on average 1.5 litres of bovine milk or it's products on average daily... The bodily fluid of a rather smelly beast. We baulk at feeding our children the milk of another human... Think about it.
We cannot continue living insular lives. This thread attests that hter are many women with likeminded views in the relatively small community of BB. There ARE women in your towns and suburbs who have these values - they just have to be found.