Would you use someone else's EBM??

[Trillian]

How true Jennifer: I would dearly love to hear that milk banks have become so successful that there is enough for every mother that can't BF her baby and that artifical milk is a thing of the past and infact banned.

Deb, farming practices have changed so much in the past decade that we are really not the bad guys we are made out to be.

[Inanna]

I think I've been misunderstood Trillian. I don't think farmers are bad guys. However, I do know that there are pesticides, insecticides and sprays used in many commercial farms. When cows milk is tested it has content of chemicals. I personally choose not to expose my self to that. Many people do and it's a choice - my point is that ABM uses cows milk that may or may not have these as trace elements. Likewise EBM that is donated - it's not controlled.

I have strong feelings about farming practices & I can see that they clash with yours - I live smack in the middle of a dairy and I choose not to buy milk that is not organically farmed. However, the way the "girls" in our surrounding paddocks are treated is kind and compassionate. It's the additives that worry me. I worry that there are additives in everything from the fabric in our clothes, the cleaners in our kitchens and bathrooms, often the water we drink, the juice and milk in our fridges etc et. I worry about that both personally and as a society that we are being immersed in additives...

I love my local farmers - I love the kind way they treat their animals. I dont like some of their practices but I never would think of them as bad guys...

I just want to be clear - I did not mean to offend you or any other farmer...

[Trillian]

None taken I think it's just that generally people assume that things haven't changed at all.

Anyway, I agree, if you are concerned about what you consume, or wear, then you are going to endeavour to source food and clothing items that support your ideology. I think the issue with ebm milk banks is that this is relatively new territory in this country as far as consumption outside of a hospital setting is concerned. I think there needs to be more research and testing done to prove that it is 100% safe and that the quality is not altered during the pasturization stage. For me it's just not enough to take at face value that it is and scoffed at when I suggest otherwise kwim? I think that's what the concern is for many people that if you can't provide, then you want something that is going to replicate that almost identically and that means having ebm of a quality that is very very high.

[Liz]

I think that's what the concern is for many people that if you can't provide, then you want something that is going to replicate that almost identically and that means having ebm of a quality that is very very high.

This then begs the question of why so much trust is put in artificial milks.. which are far removed from the real thing. They are rarely questioned for their safety & sterility. Yet we are demanding THE highest quality for real breastmilk?

I find it interesting that even 'lower quality' breastmilk is more nutritious than formula. A malnourished mother in a 3rd world country will still produce milk better than formula (not that the formula companies would ever tell you this!!). It's interesting to read that very few components of the breastmilk are affected by her malnutrition.

Commercialisation of any milk bank would attract the wrong kind of 'donators' and I would hope it wouldn't ever go there. Left as donations only, then it's people who are passionate about breastfeeding and would at that time be feeding their own babies and looking after themselves while feeding that would inclined to donate. So voluntary donations already weeds out a lot of the "nasties".

[Inanna]

I think that we need to start somewhere. When I was in NICU there were so so so many women - demographically they were very young. They tried so damn hard to make their boobies produce milk. The stress, sometimes illness and sadly the lack of support made it tough. I saw babies die from gut problems that are related to the ABM - we know this. Formula is usually given as a last resort in NICU because of the problems it can cause.

I know that we walk around exposed to chemicals, radiation and pollution every day. What I am passionate about is decreasig my and my childrens (and other children's) exposure to this. A way to do this is by decreasing exposure in my home.

EBM is a better choice for prems than formula - and I think milk banks will be like blood banks in time to come. That the energy exchange will be all that is needed. Like ther eis cals over the radio for A+ there will be calls for more EBM in the milk bank. Yes, you will get some problems, with diet,with medications, alcohol in some but in general I think it's gonna be a dang side better than the options that many women now have.

We don't have options for our NICU babies in most hospitals. We have to either express it ourselves or risk the effects on our beloved little dots in their plastic cribs. It's a toughy.

[Inanna]

Liz yyou raised excellent poimts. From an ethical perspective I would believe it extremely unlikely that there would be payment for breastmilk. Just as we won't allow payment for blood domatioms. Our medical ethicists would have an absolute field day with that one. I would be blown down iwth a feather if it were allowed...

I too find it confronting that we as a society accept the safety of formula but are so cagey about EBM. Especially when the additives and purity of ABM is not always clear...

[butterfly_warrior]

Formula is usually given as a last resort in NICU because of the problems it can cause.

Probably not the right place to be asking this... Does it become less of a problem with not-so-premie bubs? In the SCN it was put to me that formula was the best option for Sam with his low blood sugar levels and that it would be best to give him formula through an NGT rather than put him on a glucose drip. It still frustrates me that they didn't send someone then and there to help me try to express, but waited over 24 hours before the subject even came up!

BW

[Inanna]

It's the perfect place to ask...

The problem is usually immediate - so your Sam is fine. My Eva had some formula on fingers post birth because her BSL was so low and even though I fed constantly she just wasn't getting enough colostrum.

This thread isn't about mothers feeling bad for feedig their babies ABM - we all do what we have to do at the time. I made the choice as did you Butterfly not to have glucose administered IV. My baby needed something to increase her bSl quickly. It worked - she's now 5 and has the tummy lining that wouldn't know the difference.

I don't think anyone in here thinks that ABM is better - or that if you use ABM you are lesser of a mother. What it highlights is that women have no other choice for their babies if there are no milk banks OR supportive women who will donate EBM.

In an ideal world BW I would get a call from you and whizz up there and give you my breast milk for Sam. That can and does happen and we can choose to build that type of village. It's not goig to drop in our laps. We have to work at it.

You are doing a great job of mothering your son BW - don't second guess your decisions. Reflect on them as that is what makes us different from the cows in the paddock - but don't second guess. He is thriving - your breasts are doing a great job as are you.

[Trillian]

Liz, I guess it boils down to it being the only option you have if you find yourself in that situation. I don't trust it, but what else can I do? Can't get milk out of breasts that didn't produce it and like I said earlier, not everyone has the luxury of endless lactating women at their beck and call to give them milk on a casual basis, let alone a full time one. I never did - not once over the past 8.5 years have I ever had someone who could give me breast milk. And don't forget that even though it is not on the top of their list, even the WHO sanctions its use. They aren't that foolish to not see that it does have its place - far too big a place atm for sure, but it is there. I think if women had a choice between ebm and abm, then why can't she be assured that the ebm is of the highest quality, otherwise where is the incentive to choose it over the abm? see what I mean?

And maybe if there was an incentive to donate, there wouldn't be such a huge shortage of blood would there? Same as with ebm banks- not everyone who is lactating would be able to donate, or even willing to donate. I'm sure there would be women who would not entertain the idea of donating milk, just as there are those that choose not to donate blood.

I think a lot of the cagey-ness comes from the situation arrising from the need for it in the first place. If you have a situation where a mum can't continue to bf for a short time so chooses to get friends to give her ebm, then thats a completely different situation to someone who really struggled with bf from the word go only to have it not work out and is carrying tons of mother guilt - to suggest to someone like that that she must use ebm from another woman, well!, you may as well just slap her in the face, because that just adds to the guilt kwim? And I think that needs to be respected a little more than it has been in this thread. If someone says they do not want to use it, so be it, that's their choice and I don't feel that is being respected enough.

[Inanna]

The problem with paid suppliers of blood/organs and likewise breastmilk is that it is abused. Poverty causes people to give their kidneys, their blood, their milk.

I understand that I see things differently - how I see it is there is an energy in givimg - in helping another human being. That is actually how blood and organ donation work. It is the only way that breast milk banks will work well.

I didn't know until now that you also struggled with breastfeeding Trillian. I guess that is what discussion is about - throwing around opinions, thoughts, beliefs and ideas. Some we won't like, some we will. Some will resonate, some will strike a chord. Without open discussion though we learn little about other people and what makes them tick.

I would like to know more from Bathsheba on what she meant - or if she could enlarge on her comment. Maybe there is more to what she meant? I don't know of course. Just throwing it into the ring.

ABM is a great thing if you need to use it. But right now there is no choice. I am a lover of choice!

Big hugs Trillian...

[Trillian]

Dont get me wrong, it would be wonderful if it were to become a mainstream alternative, but it's early days and I just dont think the govt has any idea what they could be in for if this takes off as an alternative to abm. I mean, its such a struggle to even get a milk bank in every city to cater for prem and ill baby needs, so no doubt it would be well into the future, but I would like to think that if my own daughters could not bf that there is that option available to them just as easily as it is to walk into a supermarket and buy abm.

[Barb Glare]

Hi,

This is a great discussion. It interests me that there is a demand that EBM be of the highest quality, untainted etc. But no similar call for formula to be sterile and untainted. The marketing companies have surely sold us a pup on that one - that we believe formula, the chemically alterest milk of another animal is the norm, and we wonder if human milk "might" be as good!
We;ve talked about what the mothers choice is - what about the baby's choice. What would the baby want to be fed?

[Inanna]

The History of Milk Banking

Introduction

At the dawn of the twentieth century, nearly all children were human milk fed - either maternally breastfed or provided with donated human milk. Over the next one hundred years, a number of dramatic changes took place including the replacement of human milk by artificial feeding products. By the beginning of the twenty-first century, human milk feeding was once again the recommended method of infant feeding. Experts recommend breastfeeding exclusively for six months and the introduction of age appropriate foods with breast milk to remain in the diet for two years and beyond. When maternal milk is inadequate or lacking particularly for high risk or premature infants pasteurized donor milk is the next best option. Donor milk banking plays an important role in meeting these recommendations.

Wet Nursing

The roots of donor milk banking reach back to earlier times when children were either breastfed by their mothers or breast fed by friends, relatives or strangers - a practice referred to as "wet nursing". Evidence of the support for "wet nursing" is present in the Code of Hammurabi from 2250 BC where the attributes needed for good wet nurses are described. In those early days, children were thought to inherit the physical, mental and emotional traits of their wet nurse through the breast milk so selection of the nurse was felt to be very important. In the 13th century, European women made more money working as wet nurses than any other occupation open to women. By early in the twentieth century, awareness of the possibility of disease transmission, difficulty finding wet nurse particularly in North America and an increasing number of artificial feeding products resulted in increasing interest in artificial feeding.

Artificial feeding

Throughout the ages, when maternal milk was unavailable and wet nursing not possible, many different substances were tried in order to feed young babies. Prior to the mid 19th century most of these products resulted in the death of the infant. By the late 19th century, with the beginning of milk analysis, the first infant "formulas" were developed. Due to its availability, cow's milk, although very different to human milk, was used in the development of these "formulas." These early infant "formulas" often provided by the individual physician, involved complicated methods of modification of cow's milk. Improvement in food processing led to the development of condensed and powdered formulas which were easier to use. "Formulas" have continued to evolve and are still a "work in progress" over one hundred years later.

During the first half of the twentieth century a number of cultural changes resulted in the replacement of human milk by artificial feeding as the normal method of infant feeding. These cultural changes included medicalization of birth, changing physician and women's roles, increasing influence of science and increasing advertising of "formula." By the 1950's, most hospitals and health professionals in the developed world promoted artificial feeding as the feeding method of choice.

The marketing of artificial feeding products, begun in the late 1800's, has continued until the present day with the consistent message of physician endorsement, scientific development and good nutrition. This is the most successful marketing campaign ever undertaken resulting in the complete cultural acceptance and the perception by both the general public and many health professionals of a safe optimum product equal to or better than human milk.

Donor Milk Banking

Over the last hundred years, breastfeeding and the use of human milk has been promoted by various groups. The emphasis on use of human milk including donor milk banking has waxed and waned throughout this time. Early in the twentieth century, milk banking blossomed and grew with increased use of donor milk for ill and premature infants. Mothers with abundant milk supplies were asked to provide milk for ill infants by either nursing the babies directly or expressing milk. With technological and hygienic advances, milk banks were established as collection and storage of milk was possible with the development of refrigeration and a greater knowledge of safe food processing. In 1909, the first milk bank was established in Vienna, Austria. By 1919, two additional banks opened - one in Boston and a second in Germany.

Some of the most famous North American consumers were the Dionne quintuplets, born premature in northern Quebec, Canada in the 1930's and provided with 8,000 ounces of donor milk from both Canadian and American donors. A year later, British quadruplets received donor milk from the Queen Charlotte Milk bank which is still in operation today. Most of these early banks collected and distributed unprocessed milk to ill and premature infants.

Throughout the developed world, donor milk banking grew as pediatrics progressed and increasing numbers of ill and premature infants survived. In some cases mothers provided donor milk by nursing babies directly but in many other cases, there was no contact between donor and recipient.

In 1985, the Human Milk Banking Association of North America (HMBANA) was established with one of the main goals being to establish standards for all North American milk banks. These standards, first published in 1990 form the basis for many other milk banking documents around the world and are reviewed and updated annually by HMBANA.

Also in the mid 1980's, with the advent of AIDS, the number of milk banks was dramatically effected. Concern for the unknown and the need for increasing complex screening of donors and milk processing resulted in many banks closing, almost overnight. Donor milk banks in North America were reduced to about eight or nine banks by the end of the 1980's.

By the 1990's with evidence of safety and increased research on the benefits of human milk, donor milk banks are again increasing globally. Many developed countries around the world either have established donor milk banks or are considering the establishment of donor banks. In North America, the interest in donor milk banks is also growing. Many families, aware of some of the problems associated with artificial feeding products, are requesting donor milk, particularly when they have an ill or premature infant and maternal milk is insufficient or unavailable. In addition, with increasing emphasis on informed choice, family centered care and best practice, health professionals are also seeking information on establishing banks.

Over the last one hundred years, the interest in human milk has come almost full circle with the understanding that although artificial feeding products are continually improving, human milk provides factors not replicated in any other source of nutrition. In addition, provision of a safe source of donor milk, supports breastfeeding by clearly indicating that human milk cannot be replaced. In the twenty-first century, donor milk banking is once again blossoming.

F. Jones
October 2003

Human Milk Banking Association of North America
1500 Sunday Drive, Suite 102, Raleigh, NC 27607 - (919)787-5181
? 2005-2009 Jibboom, LLC
All Rights Reserved

Processing


Scrubbing

Each pasteurization team member thoroughly scrubs her hands with antimicrobial soap before putting on gloves; gloves are always used when handling milk as part of the pasteurization process.



Pouring

Milk from a donor mother is carefully transferred from milk storage containers to glass flasks.


Mixing & Pooling

Each Pool (which usually includes milk from 3 to 5 donors) is thoroughly mixed to ensure an even distribution of milk components.



Filling Bottles
Four ounce glass bottles are filled with milk prior to pasteurization




Pasteurizing with the Holder Method

Milk is gently heated in a shaking water bath using the Holder Method of pasteurization. Pasteurization eliminates bacteria while retaining the majority of the milk's beneficial components




Lab Testing

Milk samples are taken during the pasteurization process and cultured to check for bacterial growth. Contaminated milk is discarded.


Pasteurized Milk

Milk is now ready for freezing and storage. It can be dispensed after samples are cultured and show no bacteria growth. Milk is shipped frozen overnight to hospitals and individual recipients at home.


Human Milk Banking Association of North America
1500 Sunday Drive, Suite 102, Raleigh, NC 27607 - (919)787-5181
? 2005-2009 Jibboom, LLC
All Rights Reserved

[Inanna]

I am glad you replied Barb - I too am concerned at the trust given to ABM and the distrust given to EBM. Above I copied and pasted from a website from North America.
They have happily banked their breastmilk with much success it would seem. It is done by donation - as they have even stricter medical ethics there than here...

What has troubled me over night is the feelings that some posters have that it's hard to get someone to donate you their milk. I gently suggest that be turned into a can do rather than cannot statement. It is possible - and you don't need endless lactating women. Just 1 or 2. It can be done.

In my situation I have lactated beautifully - eventually! I had a rather hideous birth with my first with a failed epidural and a resultant epidural headache. ABM was never going to be an option for me - I was super determined to feed my baby with my breasts. I was very educated about the benefits. I literally couldn't sit up after she was born due to the headache that remained undiagnosed until a week post birth. I used nipple shields so that she could attatch lying down. It was horrendous. It truly was. My supply was low as a side effect of the shields. I did it really really really hard for about 3 months. I expressed after every feed for 3 months just to get my supply up to speed. She fed continually as my supply was low. I was in a homebirth community ad was offered milk but I wanted to get it right. Anyway I idid. Eventually but it was a hard and painful journey. I had affirmations on every available wall - I constantly muttered to myself: "my breasts are full of life giving milk"!
My point being that it was really hard and I know how difficult breastfeeding can be. I don't want anyone thinking that it was all a walk in the park - I want to establish I truly get how hard it can be. However, I also know how beneficial it is to babies and how important it is for babies to have a choice too!

I remember the little trisomy 21 babe we expressed for - his mother was heartbroken that she couldn't produce enough milk for her son. She also knew that for her ABM was a poor cousin that couldn't give her sick little fella the very best chances. It was a slap in the face that she couldn't supply enough milk for her child - I remember well her torment. However she was able to choose the next best thing. I only wish that for every baby.

We have to stop the belief that artificial is best and of high quality just because Mr Nestle says it is! He is selling his can! Dach pointed out that we don't know if the milk is manufactured on equipment that produces nuts etc. We also don't know the pesticide, sLE, herbicide content. Yet we believe it's okay as it comes in a sealed tin!

Thank the Universe for ABM as it can help - but it is used with much more frequency than is good for our little people. This is NOT blame placed at mothers. It is damn hard being a mother in our society. We are not treated as the Goddesses that we truly are. We are not surrounded by sisters, mothers and aunts so that we can establish our breastfeeding. We are often told by our "sisters" - I was up and walking around 10 minutes post birth". I never think I am in the midst of a wondorous thing when I hear that - for it makes me sad. Because we are to rest - to snuggle, to be alone in the dark with the arms of our loving man to support us, with strokes from our sisters. We need quiet falling in love time. Just as we don't make love to our men in a bright room with noise and visitors and food trolleys - nor should we "make love" to our babes in such an environment.

Wehen we put our babes to our breast - I dont know about you but I feel love, gratitude, joy, thankfulness... Every time.

If milk banks can have a living food available to babies that need it - they have that rsonance of love in the milk! It's alive. (has anyone read the "messages in water") I know that is out there for some but I truly believe that.

We have got choices. There are not many women who woldn't express for another woman's child if she could. I really believe that. Because us mothers are amazing - we will do all we can. I gently urge us as a community of AMAZING women to step outside of our circle and see HOW WE CAN rather than how we can't. Even on here - you know we have prems born here in BB land - maybe we can start by expressing for them - we need to believe in Utopia! Because without a belief that there can be change it aint gonna happen!

As with many discussions on BB this has come back to the Village - it is up to us to build a village, with like minded women and men - for whom 15 minutes expressing 4-5 times a day is a gift given with love... From a mother who has accepted anothers milk (granted I didn't need it as just having the pressure off me to produce - allowed my milk to come in)

I still would like Bath to enlarge on what she meant - but for me trusting in the milk our bodies make is a far safer bet than on a can. Not withstanding that sometimes it is absolutely needed that can - just putting out there that why do we trust a can before the milk our female bodies manufacture for ours (or others!) babies.

I would love to see a day that AMB was "canned" as our milk banks were full! I see in the US the EBM is by prescription and couriers deliver it frozen to homes and hospitals. Wouldn't it be wild if Mr Nestle had to take up a new venture - imagine if every lactating woman donated 1 feed per day to the bank? I think it would be amazing!

We all make our decisions based on what's the best for us at the time - this isn't about that - it's about looking to the future and making the milk that nurtures our societies children the best possible when a mother cannot produce it for her self...

[Janie]

Oh Deb, what a beautiful post. So full of hope and 'can do'. I love it

[Liz]

Even on here - you know we have prems born here in BB land - maybe we can start by expressing for them - we need to believe in Utopia!

Just regarding this and a previous post about the milk bank requesting prem milk..

Does it really matter what sort of breastmilk the prem baby receives? I appreciate that our bodies produce special milk for our prems, but really, if it was a choice between say my "toddler breastmilk" and a formula that is the same as what an older baby sucks down, surely the breastmilk would still be better?

Would, say, my breastmilk at this stage be acceptable to donate to a fellow mum with a newborn/prem?

I can tell you now, if I have another prem, and I express the unbelievable amounts I was doing last time, I will be seriously looking at ways to get that prem milk to other prem babies. I don't know if there's a milk bank around here tho? And the chances of me actually knowing someone at the same time to personally offer it to are pretty small.

I also think it's a really tough subject to broach. I mean when I was in hospital with Kayla and filling up the freezer with my breastmilk, there were other mums with their bub in SCN that I got to know a bit, who were resorting to formula because they were struggling so much.. how on earth do you offer for them to have some of what's in the freezer without them taking offense or feeling guilty?

I see it here on BB in the punching bag threads and the like, people JUMP to be offended by things. It's tough to break through the mum vs mum coz people are so sensitive about things like this. Instead of seeing it as someone trying to help or make suggestions, so many people take it as an attack on their own efforts. Just read all the MIL threads LOL... and see how sensitive people are to offers of help and how they take it as an attack on their parenting!

[Inanna]

Awww I agree Liz - sometimes it's hard to speak your truth when others get defensive. However, I think it is absolutely necessary to speak our truth - but kindly.

I actually took a while to press send with my above post as I didn't want to cause any defensive reaction. However, I think it's important to continue to discuss difficult issues even when they press our buttons. Otherwise we stay firmly in our circle and can't see anything but our own viewpoint.

I think if you just kindly offer: "you know I seem to have more milk than I need right now - if you would like you can have some of mine"... If that is offensive than so be it - but mostly when we act from a heart space it's pretty hard for another to behave angrily....

[Mumma2three]

I think I'd have trouble giving my bub someone else's breast milk. It's like I eat lamb, but the thought of kangaroo I dont like... IYKWIM, just a psychological thing. Also my kids have allergies and intolerance's and DD2 and DS1 have both had a really hard time with my; breastmilk. They had breastmilk jaundice to start with, and then reacted to everything I ate and drank. Im currenlty not allowed have dairy/cocoa/eggs/soy. I would therefore not know what is in someone' else's milk and thus not be willing to use it.
Im not anti formula even though I've never used it for my children, but my nephew is a picture of health (way more so than my kids) and he was premmie and formula fed from the beginning.
It would be nice to be offered the choice but it's totally an individual decision. As for donating, I'd love to,but like blood Im not allowed as I was in the UK at the wrong time! Such a pity they can't test for mad cows because they're missing out on ALOT of blood being donated.