Advice needed - thinking of giving it up

[Lisa B]

Hi there,

I'm in tears as a write this but I just don't know what to do and am beginning to think I need to move on from the idea of BF and consider my options of EE or FF as the way forward.

I saw the LC yesterday and they consider that it's a confidence issue and nipple/suck confusion but I know there is something wrong. The LC I saw yesterday said that I need to stop the top up feeds and just use the breast as DS is capable of feeding based on what she saw. The reason I do the top up feeds is because DS falls asleep or comes off refusing to go back on the breast and it was recommend to top him up with EBM bottles to ensure he continues to gain weight.

Yesterday after the LC I began to just BF exclusively until about 5am. DS was waking every 2 hours o/n for a feed which could take 45 minutes. At 5am DP and I decided to give him an EBM bottle and I would express. I expressed about 200mls in 15 minutes when normally I would get maybe about 100mls and I took this as a sign along with the frequency of feeds that DS wasn't extracting enough milk from me. I then started again with BF at 7.30am and by 8.30am he was still slowly drinking from one side and still hungry. I rang the LC and she said to give him 50mls of EBM which I did and he was still hungry so I gave him another 50mls and I'm sure he was still hungry after that. I was feeding via one method or another until about 10.30am constantly.

I phoned the LC and explained what was happening and she said that it was up to me if I wanted to persist with BF or not. The truth is that I do want to BF but I can't feed constantly around the clock and I don't want to see my baby hungry. I'm beginning to wonder how long I should try and BF before saying that it isn't going to happen.

What do you think of the advice I was given? Is there any other methods for dealing with moving him from a combined BF/EBM to only being BF?

[onthefly]

Ah, that's a really tough gig LisaB

The first thing I would say is this - your little one is still very young, and you're still finding your way here. You have time to figure this out.

A few things - 2hourly overnight, yep,, my DD does that too, though thankfully she's a quick feeder. Does your DS take both sides in 45 mins? If he's just sticking to one side I'd give him about 20min, then burp and switch him. He may drink some more then fall asleep, or if he's still going after 20 mins switch him again to the first side. He'll get a lot more milik that way. I ended up doing that with my DS, as he would feed forever. But when I started switching after 20 mins or so he would go for about 15 minutes on the second side then fall asleep full. (as compared to feeding for 1 hour plus on one side, then wanting another feed 30 minutes later).
I think, in theory, stopping with the bottles is probably a good idea, but obviously you need to find a way to ensure your baby is getting enough milk. What have his weight gains been like? How many wet & dirty nappies? Just wonder how far off you are. At any rate, it sounds like you have enough milk for him, so that's half your battle right there.
I think the fact that you got so much during the night doesn't necessarily mean he isn't taking enough. Not sure.
You want to continue, right? So try taking it one feed at a time and reassess each day. If you need to use a bottle to get you through then do that, but keep feeding him if that's what you want. Take care

[Lisa B]

Hi MadB,

The 2 hourly feeds o/n is concerning for me because when he has EBM bottle he only feeds every 3-5 hours o/n. This in combination with having to feed him for a couple of hours straight this morning.

His weight gain has been fine since the top up feeds started about 3ish weeks ago. This has held him at just above the 50 percentile. He has plenty of wet nappies with his top up feeds and only poos every 4-6 days...an explosion this morning..lol.

I have no issue with supply. My freezer is full of EBM and an I'm running out of storage room and just tipped out 2 lots this morning as I have just way too much.

I haven't tried swapping sides as yet because I know he hasn't anywhere near drained one side. I will give this a shot and see how this effects things.

[onthefly]

I see. You may even have an oversupply with all his feeding and pumping. They do change their feeding habits btw, DD was going 4-5 hours for a while there But you'll know best how your baby is doing
You mayneed to take a eap of faith and just not use bottles for a fwe days and see if he gets the hang of it.
/but only you can decide what is going to work best for the both of you

[Starfish]

Have you tried calling the ABA helpline? (1300 MUM2MUM) You can ring them 24/7 for all feeding issues.

As MadB said - your LO is still very young. 2 hourly feeds at this age are very common and normal. This stage will pass and as he grows he will beed less often. It seems to me that the reason he is drinking less often when you give him EBM is because from a bottle, milk flows quicker - therefore he doesn't have to work as ahrd for it. For this reason, I agree that stopping the EBM top-ups is a good idea, as you don't want him to get used to getting his milk so easily. It is harder for a baby to suck from the breast, but this is beneficial for their jaw development, etc.

The amount of milk you are able to express is not an indication of how much milk you have and how much your LO is drinking. Breasts are constnatly making milk, therefore they are never fully "empty" and over the first few weeks of a bub's life, you suppy adjusts to how much your baby drinks. It sounds like this is happening fine with you.

Those first few weeks and months are tough, as both your baby and you are getting to know each other, getting used to each other, etc. It will pass (I know at the moment it probably doesn't seem like it ever will, but it will). You sound like you are doing really well. It is hard, but it will get easier.

[Sammiejane]

I agree with madb, you need to switch sides... With DD#1 she use to fall asleep, so I was told to do the nappy change between sides to wake her up again, after starting this she took much more.

You don't have to completely drain each side with the feeds before swapping sides either, your body will adjust to what is taken.

2 hrly feeds sound sorta normal, but frustrating over night, how many weeks are u at now (can't see tickers on phone) may also be a growth spurt?

Goodluck Hun xx


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[courts&munchkins]

Oh I couldn't read and not reply. I know how heartbreaking it can be to be at that point. I know because I am nearly there myself. I honestly believe that dd's attachment will never get better and feeding her will always be frustrating and painful. It'll be just for how long o can put up with it. I'm not going to give you any advice on what to do. Only you can know where you are at and how much more you can take. And the other girls will be able to give you much better advice on how to continue.

What's getting me through each day at the moment is trying to find one thing, no matter how small, just one reason every day to keep going. For eg dd smiled at me whilst on the breast the other day, first time she's done it and she hasn't done it since but that moment kept me going. Or I got her weighed the other day and despite our problems she's thriving so that was a reason. My reason today is a big one. Our town has flooded again and when that happened in Jan formula stocks ran really low so today I am glad I don't have to worry about that. So instead of focusing on the frustration, the pain, the tears each day I try and find one reason to keep going.

It won't help with the actual mechanics of it but its getting me through each day. Whatever you decide hun bub will be loved and nourished and that's what's most important.

Someone once said to me never give up on your worst day. So that is helping me too. You can pm me if you want someone to talk to. I'm going through the same thing so I understand

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[MantaRay]

Hun, you might not realise it, but you have already come a long way. I know it has been a tough time for you, but from your post it seems that you are nearly there. Sometimes it take someone outside your situation to see it! Your little one is attaching and feeding - that is awesome!!

There could be a few reasons why he is waking more often when you are not giving top ups. The one that sounds most likely from the information in your post is that you have an oversupply of milk and he is getting more of the watery milk at the start of a feed and less of the fattier milk. This means that he doesn't stay full for as long. I think expressing so often could perhaps be contributing to the oversupply so if you can have faith in your body to keep your little one nourished as it has for the last 9 months (and still can), and reduce or stop the expressing for a while, it should soon settle down. In the meantime, I would try one-sided feeding for a couple of days, and if need be, block feeding. MadB is spot on with the 20minutes too. Babies get most of the milk they can take in the first 20 minutes. So one idea that might work for you is to feed for 20 minutes from one side, then pull him off. Try and keep him settled by wearing him in a sling if he still seems hungry, and then offer the same breast again in about 30 minutes. Milk is fattiest about 30 minutes after a feed, so that would be a good time to give him a top up at the breast. Again, for no longer than 20 minutes. If that side still feels a bit full, express enough for comfort, and then re-offer that side at the next feed. If the breast feels quite empty after the top-up, offer the other side at the next feed. If at any time a breast feels uncomfortably full and lumpy, express just enough for comfort (and you can keep this EBM for later use if you like).

Does that sound like a plan that could work for you? It might still mean frequent feeding for a few days until your supply settles down, but it won't be forever. You really don't sound like you want to give up so it could be worth it for you. Other things can wait for a few days while you get this important relationship with your little one sorted out - and taking some time to just rest and feed will probably make you feel a mile better as well.

If at any time you are worried about him getting enough milk, just look at the nappies. 5 or more wet nappies a day and poo that is soft or runny are great signs that he is getting enough. I think if he was dehydrated you'd notice - he'd either scream a lot or become extra sleepy, his skin tone would change (it should bounce back when pinched), he would stop doing any or many wet or dirty nappies, and the urine that did come would be dark in colour and smelly. If he seems mostly settled and well, then it is a good sign that he is getting enough to drink.

All the best hun. You really are doing well And also, don't forget 1800 mum 2 mum (1800 6862 686, drop the last 6 for VOIP) is 24 hours a day if you need reassurance or information at any time.

[ellasmummy]

Lisa my dd was taking that long to feed, then wanting 2 hourly feeds. Damn near killed me! I started cutting her off after 20mins on each side, with a nappy change in between each side. Huge improvement! Good luck, and like pp said maybe give the aba line a call see what they say.

[Barb Glare]

You have already gotten some great advice. You are closer to turning the corner than you even know!
I would like to know *exactly* how much weight your little one is putting on (pedantic, I know! - you can pm me if you like.)
Breastfeeding is a confidence trick. As the others have said, it is normal to feed at least 12 and more times a day (it's a tough gig, but it doesn't kill us!) After he has had one breast for 20 mins or so, take him off and after a burp and a nappy change, offer him the other side? Express if your breasts still feel uncomfortably full.
Why don't you just breastfeed him during the day (when frequent feeds are easier to deal with) and top him up after that last feed at night? At least for a while until you feel confident enough to phase that out?

[MummaSue]

Couldn't read and not give you some

You're doing a super job babe.

[Lisa B]

Thanks for your encouragement.

I did try the 20 mins on one side and then 20 on the other but DS was still hungry. He pretty much hasn't slept all day. He fed for most of the morning only taking about 10 mins off here and there for a cat nap. I really believe there is either something wrong with how he is sucking or my breast in how it provides the milk.

I caved this afternoon and gave him some EBM bottles, he was so hungry and tired it was hard to watch him. He has just drank so much and now he had gone to sleep (4.45pm) for the first time today.

I hear what you say when you say we are so close but I also think we are so far. I'm not sure we can turn this corner, at this point in time anyway. It really upsets me and I've been in tears for most of the day. Maybe i should try again tomorrow, or maybe in a couple of weeks I;m not sure. I feel so stuck in no mans land and unable to make a decision about which way to go with feeding. I'm also wondering if I should see a counsellor to work through my decision making and try and arrive at some peace with a decision.

In the next couple of weeks I have an Osteo and paediatric appointment for DS so I will at least keep expressing until I see these people and get some more opinions on what is going on.

[MantaRay]

Hun, you don't need to make a decision yet You have time on your side hun. Right now your baby needs to be fed, so do that however it is working best for you. If you are not feeding him from the breast - at all, or for a feed - then expressing to keep up your supply will help keep your options open. Each feed is a different story, not an all or nothing decision. Just take things one feed at a time, and when you have some more information and some time to think, you might like to make a decision then. Some mums take weeks or months to get things working well and still go on to feed for a year or more. Take your time and give yourself some rest if you can. If you decide you want to keep feeding, there will be a way with the right help. If you decide that breast is just not right for you at this time, that's ok too and you can make that decision knowing that you've thought it through and have tried your best.

If you would like to find a private Lactation Consultant, PM me with your suburb and I can try and find someone in your area for you.

Hang in there hun. You are doing really well

[Lisa B]

Hi Manta,

You're right I need to focus on one feed at a time. I guess because I see the LCs at the hospital with a view to getting BF established that I feel the pressure to get it going. The service at the hospital is good in that it is free and I have had weekly appointments. It's not so good in that you can see a different LC every time so you get a lot of different approaches. I did see a private LC which the hospital recommended and feel that I wasted my money as the advice wasn't any different from the hospital and it was a one off thing where I need more input. I also saw someone from the council who is a BF specialist but she stopped seeing me after a few visits saying that the problems were unusual and referred me off to the osteo and paediatrician.

I do want to BF but I just don't know whether it is achievable and whether I'm putting too much stress on myself and DS through prolonged trying.

[courts&munchkins]

Hi Manta,

I also saw someone from the council who is a BF specialist but she stopped seeing me after a few visits saying that the problems were unusual and referred me off to the osteo and paediatrician.

.

That really annoys me for you because that is exactly what I am going through. I just keep being told yes you have a problem, no I don't know how to solve it, go see this specialist. I am so sick of seeing specialists. I just want someone to actually FIX the problem. To actually give me an answer on what I can do, to give me some hope that things will get better. When you are struggling so much its so hard to hear we don't know what we can do to help you. You are doing great, keep telling yourself you are doing great.

[Sammiejane]

Lisa, I will be interested in the Osteo appointment, miss A is having her last one on Thurs (3 in total) and she us a different baby and is sucking sooooooo much better now. I know lost of people may nit believe in them, but I truly have seen great results.

You are doing an awesome job xx


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[entreat]

You're right I need to focus on one feed at a time.

You have the key right there, hun. One feed at a time. It got me to where I am today. For a whole month, my mantra was "If I'm still doing this tomorrow, it's a good thing". Every feed. Follow that up a few months later with one-sided breast-refusal... now we're 10 months strong, even if I only feed one side.

MantaRay & MadB gave some excellent advice. I can only follow it up by saying DS needed to be burped & nappy change after 10-15 mins for almost 2 months. Some baby's sleep - and it's really hard to keep them awake, but we need to do it, or we take the other track, and just feed them more frequently.

Have you tried laying down to feed baby? It's so relaxing, I found that I wasn't as worried about how often I had to feed Jack if could get a bit of rest. And I think (memory a bit faded here) you make more prolactin, which encourages better breastfeeding.

Anyway - it's late at night here, so my ramblings are a bit disjointed - but I'm sure you get the idea. ((hugs)) You are doing a great job. Coming here & asking for support is a brilliant step to a long journey of breastfeeding. Xx

[MantaRay]

It really sucks that you have been given the run around hun I can understand if you don't want to see any more lactation professionals. Do you happen to know if the private LC you saw is IBCLC qualified? If not, and you think it's worth a shot, IBCLC qualified LCs are the gold star - they have to have extensive training and examinations, and their training covers all those "unusual" problems. I might be able to help you find one if you are interested, but no pressure. This is an offer if it is something you want to do only. Actually, I will be away for a few days so if you do want to try, could you PM Barb with your suburb. She is an IBCLC qualified LC herself.

You are doing really well hun, and there is no pressure to get this going. If you get there quickly, well and good, but for many mums it takes time and that's ok too Hang in there