Well said:
I think it is beautiful how we can support each others decisions even if we haven't experienced their preferred way of birthing.
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Well said:
I think it is beautiful how we can support each others decisions even if we haven't experienced their preferred way of birthing.
Wow, this one has exploded today while I was away! Can we please be more supportive of one another, else I will have to close the thread. I think it's great we've all been able to have a say on how we feel on both sides, but I think the points have been made. Thanks ladies.
It has blown up! I feel sad to read your post Rachel. I too agree that a c/section for no reason is not optimal and again as I said above it's not within my radar...
I can't imagine comparing a birth choice to not strapping a child in safely... I find that offensive personally. But, again it is your opinion and that's what's so wonderful... That we all share our opinions respectfully.
Jovie said she would never contemplate a c/section but she has not been put in the position... I totally understand that. Until I had the recent experiences of the past 2 years I wouldn't contemplate an induction - but it's certainly something I will consider... Trust me I am fully aware, understand the risks... And believe me this baby growing in my belly is just so incredibly precious. I would never do anything to risk his/her health or wellbeing. BUT my head is also important. My head gives birth. If my head can't get around the fear that my baby will die in utero because I am no longer on antiocoagulants than trust me my hoo haa won't be able to push it out!
Sometimes Rachel women have perceived risks... They may not be there but they are very real for the woman... Yep, those risks can be talked through, counselled but sometimes that fear is just too great... I remember a time when I thought similarly to you... A time when I believed that all women can birth vaginally. Being with women, and living my journey has taught me some stuff. Some of that is "before we judge, walk a mile in my moccassins (or someone else's) I remember being with a woman in labour, she was having a vbac... She just couldn't push... She just couldn't. Her body wouldnt' let her. This woman had worked tirelessly for 2 years to have a vaginal birth. She had the props, the support. The vbac friendly doc. The water. It was beautiful. But the trauma was so great. I told her that I could see her baby's hair and it sent her into a spin... She was afraid she would die. The baby would die. She needed to hear the heartbeat - continually but to do that we had to get out of the water. Her face was white with fear. Eventually we made noises. Just like the cows in the cow paddock next door to her house. We laughed and soon we coudl see a forhead. The doppler sounded beautiful and her husbqand said. I believe you can really do this... She did. Now, this was a replication of her first birth. But during her first biarth she had no continuity of care. No support. A sterile room. No knowledge. She says now she feels blessed to know of how we can overcome the fear. BUT that even had she had not been able to she was still the woman she is. We need to remember this. For some of us birth is a walk in the park. For others of us it's not such an easy thing. As women we need to support and love each other. We have much wisdom to impart to each other but it needs to be done respecting that we don't know what is happening for women all of the time.
We do a great disservice to women not to fully inform them. Education needs to happen, loving support and strength of advocacy... But ALL care providers need to be mindful that it's not your birth it's the woman's... If a woman makes an informed choice that is her right... EVEN when we don't think we would make the same choices for ourselves.
Do I think elective c/section should occur because of convenience. My answer to that would be no... Would I support a woman in her choice? Well I have and I would but not without being very clear about risks and my own opinion... That's my right...
Yes, I think that our c/section rate is unacceptable in Australia... BUT we need to look at why... Most women dont' have continuity of care. They don't have a careprovi\der they know and trust... Women enter the birthing room with a stranger... "It's like saying okay take off your clothes and let's get jiggy with it but don't mind us!"
Choice is limited. We are socialised to believe that the doctor knows best. That we are safer in the hands of a doctor in ot than squatting on the floor of a birthing suite or at home, or in the water... This is changing but we need to be gentle.. We need to be loving. We need to be strong and supportive.
We need to involve our children more in the birthing process (I believe) they are the parents of the future. But again for many this isn't acceptable - for many reasons that we may not understand but they are REAL for that person...
MIdwives and Doctors debating their case without considering the WOMAN is detrimental to the cause of swinging back to a more natural approach to birth...
I think it's wonderful that folk can speak their minds in here and be heard... Some of the stories that women have told I know would be hard so thankyou for sharing... :hug:
Good luck Keira in making your decision.
Just remember to base your decision on the advice of your medical team not on the advice of people posting their own personal opinions on a website. While it is great to hear others' opinions, at the end of the day, you have to be happy with the choice you have made. Every woman who has birthed a baby whether via c-section (elective or non-elective) or vaginal birth should be proud of the fact that they have grown another human being and brought them into the world...even if for a short time as has happened with some of the ladies here who were brave enough to tell their stories. IMHO from that moment on, the focus should be on raising a healthy, happy and secure human being. No-one (strangers, relatives, whoever) should continue to harp on about whether or not that baby was brought into the world via surgery or otherwise. Once you become a parent, how you birthed that child doesn't seem so important (assuming all went well no matter what choice you made) as you have so much to focus on in getting used to your new life and adjusting to all the little stages that your little one goes through.
Good luck Keira. I'm sorry an innocent question has probably added to the confusion that you were already feeling.
Thats pretty nasty!!!!:
Lets face it in the private system, I don't know anyone who would be turned down for an elective surgery, afterall the surgeon is just looking after his own (or
Kellie I would stop this one soon.
This is getting into the land of liable suits.
I haven't posted one opinion on here that I haven't backed up with facts and links, even if they were taken off. It's not just a personal opinion on a website.
It's actually not nasty to say that you wouldn't be turned down for elective surgery in the private system. On average private hospitals have over a 50% rate of c/s. There are many things caught up in business, health is only one of them.
I agree that it's unfortunate that this discussion has become a cat fight. I have never been rude or unruly. I hope that all personal attacks are dealt with equally.
Lisa Barrett
Today I went to my Ob. expecting a routine check-up...
All along I've told him I've wanted a natural birth...I've read alot about active birth...booked in for an active birth workshop...absolutely love the concept of it...and so want to have the opportunity to have one...
EXCEPT...today I was told, that because of my history of fibroids and fibroid surgery in the past (embolisation), I probably have to have a c-section...I was devastated...cried all the way home...
The reason I may have to have a c-section is due to scarring of the uterus...which could then rupture in vaginal birth...causing problems for both me and the baby...
Some of the gentle comments on this thread have been very encouraging to me...thankyou so much!!! Some of the harsher ones have honestly, been quite distressing...
12 hours ago I would never have considered a c-section...now, I have to think differently...I've read the research papers on embolisation and pregnancy...I'm educating myself as much as possible...
I think it is so important to respect people's choices...and know that sometimes those choices are devastatingly hard to make...
Oh Monnie :hug: I'm so sorry. I don't know anything about fibroids, so no advice, I just hope you are doing OK. And it's good you are looking into it all now so that you have lots of time to make a decision & know you are doing what's best for you & bub.
Big hugs Monnie :hugs: that is distressing... I am sure you will research thoroughly your options... Could you perhaps get a second opinion??? Sending you lots of love :hug:
Hi Monnie, I'm sorry to hear that your having a hard time. I agree with flowerchild a second opinion. Plus, didn't your Ob know you'd had this done before? I wonder why it wasn't mentioned in a prior visit.
I can certainly send you lots of information if your interested. You can contact me off list. Also there are midwives in your area that could help with information too.
Good Luck
Lisa Barrett
Kiera, I really hope this thread has not totally confused you, and you are able to arm yourself with enough facts to come to a decision as to what you want.
Monnie, good luck in making your choice, I hope you are able to get all the info and opinions that you want.
Lisa, I think the term "nasty" was in reference to the comment that the surgeon is just looking after his own, not that private hospitals have high c/s rates. I don't disagree with any of the statistics you have quoted. I have read the French study that showed the 3.5 times highly maternal mortality rates.
It seems to me a lot of angst is coming from the implied sentiment that no one who had read all the facts and educated themselves would choose an elective c/s, or that someone who does hasn't got all the facts or has not educated themselves enough, when neither of those are actually true.
I know there are a lot of women out there who may be steered towards an unecessary op without haveing all the facts, and that many of them, when presented with all the facts, would possibly not choose surgery.
I do see the necessity for accurate information to be available, and understand the scare tactics that are out there. I've had the crap fill in OB who refused to attend active birth becuase he's 'not a vet' and that, and get this, its too risky, its much safer to have surgery or be flat on your back.
But it comes down to choice. If someone has none of the facts, is misinformed because someone wants to influence their choice, or only some of them becuase they don't know that they're available thats one thing. I'd get worked up about that becuase their entitled to all the factual information they want.
But if someone has done all their research, and chooses to have a c/s, well it's their choice whether we agree or not.
Hi guys
Many thanks for your words of support...much appreciated!
My Ob. did suggest to me that he would more than encourage me to get a second opinion...which I guess is good!
Shannon...he wasn't sure about the % risk of uterine rupture. I asked him whether they could do a scan to see how much scarring is on my uterine wall...but he said that generally the scans aren't accurate enough.
Although embolisation was a great procedure for me back in 2002 (I had severe heavy bleeding and was very anaemic due to my troublesome fibroids), it's a relatively new technique (ie. 10 years old) and therefore there really isn't much known about the impact on pregnancy and birth. In fact in many of the scientific papers I read, it suggested that the pregnancy rate is much lower for those who had embolisation, with a m/c rate of 30%...it took us 3 years to get pregnant! This baby really is a miracle for us!
In the biggest lit. review on embolisation (and it's not that big), 70% women who had embolisation had a c-section. The article certainly acknowledges that Obs. are very conservative when it comes to women with embolisation as they just don't have enough information on how well their uteruses deal with the surgical technique...especially when the uterus has to work hard in contractions! Most of the women in the article were in their mid-30's too (just like me!)...
So...although it is ultimately my choice (that's what the Ob. said)...I guess it's about weighing up the risks of rupture and the risks of c-section. The risks of rupture include emergency c-section, and surgery on the uterus (if it ruptures) which could ultimately (worst case scenario) lead to hysterectomy to stop the bleeding...
I also wonder how "natural" they would let me vaginally labour, given they would need to be monitoring the possibility of rupture fairly closely...
I have so longed for the experience of child birth...but more than anything, we've longed for a baby...
I've been thinking that the birth-baby concept is similar to the wedding-marriage concept...if I had to have a choice, I'd have a great marriage any day over a fantastic wedding...(thankfully I do have a great marriage!!!)...ultimately I'd love to have a great birth and baby...but if I had to choose...the baby is what I really really want!
Wishing you all the best with your decision. Take care :hug:
Thankyou Lynn...and Lynn, I'm so sorry about Cooper...wishing you all the very very best.
Monnie - it must be hard that it is such a new thing & there isn't much to go by. I really don't know what I'd do. I think you're analogy of the wedding/marriage is perfect, it really does make a great comparison. I think you are being very sensible about this. I look forward to hearing more about this if/when you get a second opinion. :)
Thank you Monnie. That means so much to me :hug:
I disagree. My labour and subsequent c/s had massive implications for me, physically and emotionally. I now have my hospital notes too and what the ob said was happening to my ds during labour was not true! It is like saying, 'as long as the baby is healthy that is all that matters', well of course it is but it is not the only thing that matters. My ob took away my right to a healthy natural birth, and i more than likely have some form of post traumatic stress from it. So women being informed about the risks as well as the pro's means they won't be pushed into decisions that can affect them for the rest of their life, including following pregnancies and labours.:
Once you become a parent, how you birthed that child doesn't seem so important
Of course sometimes decisions are taken out of our hands if things take a turn for the worse, but to have another human being talk someone into having surgery is just wrong, especially when they are not being totally upfront about the repercussions(and I am only referring to my own situation, and that I do think what happens during birth matters later).
Bec, I know what you mean. I think what is being said though isn't that the birth isn't important - it SO is important. But just that (& I'm sure we all agree) that the baby is the most important thing. But yes, I do agree, the birth is a very important part, particularly to the woman. I know that this next birth for me is going to be a huge hurdle, both physically & mentally and it is very important to me that the experience is a more positive one.
Hi Monnie,
I had to reply to your post. I've had a c/sec, 2 VBACs, and another c/sec. I have a long and very complicated history which includes infections and uterine surgery.
Have you ever had a hysteroscopy, just to check the uterine cavity? As your doctor said, a scan can't tell you much about scarring but a hyst should disclose it (nothing is 100% accurate). Obviously it's not possible now, while you're pg, but I thought you might have had one in the past. It depends where the scarring is. If it's low down in your uterus, then the risk of rupture is very low (similar to a VBAC). If it's up in the fundus, which gets a big workout during labour, then the risk is higher.
Having done both, I encourage you to keep open the idea of vaginal delivery. I would view the monitoring as nothing. Both my VBACs were totally natural births, carefully monitored for my and the baby's safety. However, a vaginal delivery is definitely not something to do "at all costs". The marriage/wedding analogy was so good! I am very grateful for BOTH of my caesareans.
In my opinion, if your doctor is saying that ultimately it's your decision, then he probably thinks a vaginal delivery is fundamentally OK. If he didn't, he would be laying it on the line for you & would probably say that he wouldn't feel comfortable handling your care unless you planned a c/sec. Also, as others have said, I think he would have made it clear from the start.
I think a second opinion is a great idea. It might help you feel more at ease EITHER way. Even doctors like mine, who is widely known for supporting VBAC & minimally assisted delivery in general, will tell you if they think you really should have a caesarean.
I will be so interested to hear what you decide. BIG HUGS either way...it's very stressful to have something like this come up during pregnancy. Happy to chat more about this if you need to!
Just want to add is anyone else offended but Private OBS apparently looking after there own pockets???
I find this pretty disturbing Myself.....
I don't agree with it, but I'm not offended.
I don't know anything about your condition Monnie, but will be having a vbac so do know about the uterine rupture(though it may be different for you), and in my situation I actually won't be having close monitoring. I don't think it is effective, the efm's have proven false positive rates, and cause women to not to be able to move freely, therefore inhibitting progress of labour. Watching a women closely and trusting she knows what is happening with her body is a much better indicator if things are going wrong. Also there are other signs apart from foetal heart rate that indicate a uterine rupture. And it isn't something that happens instantly, so if you have a midwife watching you closely then they would pick it up way before a machine.
Good Luck with your decision!
Lose a baby and it really doesn't matter how it comes out, just being able to take your child home and watch them grow is the most important thing. Sure the birth is up there but having lost babies, it is definately not on my priority list.
I think that when presenting ones view on issues we should refrain from sweeping comments like "all women who..." or "the majority of people"... because quite frankly I take offence at that and it really does detract from your position.
I think the ultimate birth is one where the mothe has the birthing experience she desires, is comfortable with and is best for her, and therefore her child. Personally I'm a pain junky... I'd do a vb again, knowing full well that my hips will dislocate over having an a/c/s... but hey I just don't like being cut. But you see that's the crux of it.. its about personal choice. I prefer the pain of dislocation to a surgeons knife but thats me.
Ultimately I think you should look at ALL your options, write yourself a pros and cons list for both then go with the option YOU are most comfortable with. Honestly, if you are happy and confident with your decision then what other people thing is really not that important, they aren't the ones who have to live with your decision.
Thanks again guys...
Castle...that was really helpful information about the position of the scarring...I'll check it out...
I haven't had a hysteroscopy...so unfortunately can't access those results...
Thanks Shannon and becmc...much appreciated!
You guys have really been incredibly helpful...and supportive!
I'm so sorry to have hijacked your thread Keira...I hope that you are still finding some good information here.
Thank you Jo....yes a woman getting the birth she desired is the correct experience for HER., but somewhere along the line this has been totally lost.
I;m totally offended by this whole thread..............
Hey we don't need to get angry at myself or the moderators for this... everyone is so quick to judge us and that we are doing this for agendas... well I will tell you why I have kept this open in the hope that one day, you'll have some respect for myself, and the moderating team.
I posted in a midwifery list a few days ago and I said, this is not how to respond to someone you are trying to get your message through to. The message was posted in this thread early in the morning so none of you were able to see if, because of course, that message was quickly removed from moderators because we felt it was too harsh. Nothing harsher than this, but on par. So you are wrong.
I got alot of support for what I said, offline - they replied to me in private. But I also got lots of negative feedback on how I shouldn't stop free speech and how it needs to be heard to get through to people. Well, I didn't reinstate that post, but more posts were placed on this thread. I wanted them to see what would happen if they all joined in posting the way that original poster did - and clearly, it's not working is it ladies? Which I have said so.
So before you are so quick to jump down my throat or that of the moderators, please give us some credit. I am a mother like you, I have had an epidural, syntocinon, used formula and tried controlled crying too.