That's OK. You're forgiven, you naughty voyeur. ;)
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That's OK. You're forgiven, you naughty voyeur. ;)
I don't think this thread has been that crazy at all. I think there are a great number of articulate, well thought out, respectful posts in it. I for one have benefited a great deal from pretty much all of the posts. They've forced me to think about my situation and the broader one from a different angle which can only be a good thing. It is a topic that's close to home for lots of us (mums and dads) and I think this thread is actually a great example of how controversial or emotive topics can be discussed and debated in a mature and productive way. Looking back over the thread, a lot of the posts are actually saying pretty much the same thing. We all have far more in common with each other than the differences between us.
I want to thank everyone who has taken the time to contribute to this thread. It's been enlightening :)
LOL thank you:
Kaz, I was referring more to the name calling than anything else.
KL I don't know if you can see this, but this clip I found yesterday sums it up beautifully :)
Videos Posted by Positive Thinking: Don't take it personally | Facebook
Name calling is all to do with where THEY are at emotionally. Some people choose to self soothe with drugs, food, sex, alcohol (this is not the way to do it if you want to move past it!) ... and then some people don't know how to do that at all and lash out, yell, scream, tantrum, abuse or whatever comes out from their hurt/pain. Learning how to is very empowering and imagine how those people would be without those other things in excess. Less weight, less illness, less depression and anxiety...
:think:
Im pretty sure that at the time when I had Miss Diva that I posted how great of a c/s I had had. It was the best one I had had to be honest. No pain...no stress....perfect!!!!
take c/s number 4....my baby almost died...I wasnt very far of it myself....and my c/s as a disaster.
but then vaginal birth's can end up being the exact opposite of what people expect. Just take recently a BB member who went and had a VBA2C's and was in shock about how she reacted during her vaginal birth. Another member went through 3 days of labour to end up having to have a c/s any way. BOTH girls recieved support, comfort and nothing negetive was said towards them.
I find it highly ammusing that one says they wont debrief at all before the fact. Wait until the moment has happened and see were your emotion's take you then. Its like all those who say their children will never watch tv and end up buying the latest movies 3 years down the track for them.
I also find one who HAS NOT had the experience, good or bad, should be able to comment either way on c/s'. All the studies and writing's cannot compete with actually having the experience of one.
It is a very touchy subject, one that has to be handled with kind gloves....both sides. Its not something to shove off, blame peoples emotional state....child birth is a spirtial developement in someone so there for people will be emotional about it.
I too have found this a wonderful post! I am curious as to why it is seen as a poo fight KL?
Only 1 poster has been abusive & name called.
Everyone has articulated their viewpoints, clarified the places they have come from & shared the emotions that came with that...
When someone name calls or becomes abusive it's NEVER about the other person it is always about what is happening inside that person.
I hope that has come at least out of this thread. That speaking about our own experiences, standing up for our ideals - even sharing them in a signature isn't about anyone else but us! It's about learning, educating, supporting and growing. :hug:
**looks around
what ****fight? What name calling? What flaming?
Ach skeeta! If you could be inspired someday to post your birth story, I think it would benefit others as much as any other story posted - this is a birth site after all.
If I had to have a c/s, I'd quite like to hear a positive story, Mazzies was great.
Indeed it is Maz :) Which is why I have chosen homebirth for next time, so I get that. But when it takes over your life and how you interact with people for an extended period, it can have detrimental effects. Like I said in an earlier post, we all grieve, digest and dissect. But when we use the negative resulting feelings to blame others for how we feel, then we're on the very wrong track to inner peace/healing. Only when you look inside can you do that, keep looking externally and you'll have those emotions for a VERY long time, and who wouldn't be happier without feelings of failure, judgement and all the rest?:
WTG Kell on the homebirth and next one :dance: something you wanna share :lol:
Some people can handle their greif others look for scape goat's and whether its due to a bad birth or something entirely different we have all been guilty of shift blame onto someone.
Yes...I agree fullheartedly hon about not allowing the emotions to take over our lives...depression is not a fun ride to be on. Reading material when your already in a self distructive state of mind can push you over the edge and can come across as a slap in the face from those who have never experienced what you have gone through physically and emotional. Everyone is different and there fore we process things differently.
What may come across to some as educating peoples choices may come across as preaching the unknown.
How do they know you've not experienced it Maz, and that you're not basing it on what helped drag you out of the depths? ;) It's really difficult to wait for a 'right' moment... because bad can quickly turn very serious without intervention, if it's that bad. The work I have based the advice on is successfully used with people going through one extreme to the other... loss of a family member, cancer... serious things. There's no waiting for those people. Sometimes we need a wake-up call (gosh knows I did) and for me, that came right in the middle of the worst of it.
*mwa*
Sheesh! I can't recall any post in here that has espoused everyone should have the same birth values as the poster - the only 'forecefulness' I have seen is the strong desire to let people know they are allowed to ask questions and take control of their own birthing choices (not the outcomes, there is always an unknown there, we have all acknowledged that).
I guess there are always going to be people who don't like a forum where every post is greeted with a "yes, you're so right, I agree with and accept everything you said because I'm too scared to say any different in case the discussion takes an emotionally immature turn and egos can't handle disagreement". Those forums exist at both ends of the birthing and parenting approach spectrum, I know cos I've been on them, albeit briefly! People get upset when there is a dissonance - some people will read this post and realise they ARE upset about their birth and they've been told over and over "don't worry, none of your trauma should matter to you because you got your baby" - their trauma existing but glossed over so that others no longer have to deal with the person's conflicting feelings. That's not what the OP article is saying, I don't think. She's saying that she felt fine with the process and outcome (medicalisation was necessary and not brought on by interventions that she accepted under duress and bullying by hospy staff) and she doesn't want judgment - good call, that needs to happen with all birth choices. The OP posted this woman's experience to validate people who feel similarly, that's what some of us do :)
As for being in the Men's Forum, if it comes up in my 'New Posts' then I'm allowed to post in it if I'm not breaching T&C's!!
I wanted to take part in the footy discussion, but never got round to it after having a very busy winter. Maybe this year.
Don't take my man comment seriously Maya. I was just beating my chest, amused by the action in the man's domain.
We're not used to exposure to testosterone, let alone chest beating on BB Slyder :p Hopefully we'll see more soon though, it's great having men's perspectives and experiences in here.
Slyder - I was serious about the footy! I'm used to chest beating...I'm a firefighter ;) I use unisex loos, I'll post in Men's forums, he he!
Me too. Lot's of chest beating and body hair in my brigade. Grunt grunt.:
Well none here but I can appreciate it in others! :hug:
Thanks for having us gals in your corner of BB Slyder! :hug:
You're most welcome. There's only so much that SB, Rich and I can talk about ;)
So what's the next topic? Vaccination, circumcision.... (just joking, just joking.... :rofl:)
Smashing idea!
OH how I love a man who can beat his chest :D:
beer anyone?
I think that the sense of division sometimes felt is a lot more subtle than that though Maya. True, I've likewise never seen a post that openly or specifically criticises another member's birth choices or experiences, but I've certainly seen posts where, in a general topic of discussion, a member will voice a strong opinion about an aspect of birthing or parenting , especially about an aspect of 'the system' which by inference, can be seen to be critical of people who have made that choice.:
Sometimes posters who are in a specialist area of the forum (eg: homebirth support, breastfeeding support, VBAC support etc), and feel safe in voicing their passion and determination to a likeminded audience, will say things that can potentially and unintentionally polarise, if taken out of context. Whilst this rarely causes a problem because the people who made the opposite choice do not frequent that section, some members do not always moderate their passion when in a general forum, and what can be taken as enthusiasm and passion by some can be seen as condemnation by others, depending on one's point of view.
Quite a while ago, not long after having my own c/s, I saw a post in the c/s debrief forum where the mother wondered if she'd had an unnecaesarean and what the likelihood of a repeat c/s was. A poster suggested that the mother succumbed to overwhelming pressure by a typically egotistical, scalpel happy ob and suffered from a cascade of intervention as a result. Whilst the poster was sympathetic to the mother's plight, and was critical of the ob rather than the mother, the implication was clear that the mother failed herself by trusting in her ob's recommendations.
For some reason this post really resonated with me (obviously so, seeing that I remember it years later), partially because it somewhat resonated with my own circumstance, but partially as a cautionary tale that criticism of a system can sometimes unwittingly flow on into criticism of an individual's decision. I doubt very much that the poster intended this, but her passion for preventing others from suffering a similar fate in birth to her perhaps blinded her somewhat to the impact of her criticism of the system on others who had their experiences within the system.
Having said this, I think it is equally important for members to understand context when they see a post that unintentionally upsets them (no easy task, I know, if the memory of their own experience is still a traumatic one), and perhaps avoid those sections of the forums that support and encourage choices opposite to their own if they are still coming to terms with their own choices and find it difficult to separate encouragement for another's choice, or criticism of the system in general, from tacit criticism of their own choices or experience.
(Oh, and gentlemen, I'll happily beat my chest with you all, but will leave the beer drinking in your capable hands. And Maz's too).
I hear you Suse - but again does that mean we all need to keep a lid on our opinions, feelings & thoughts & experiences "in case" someone else is unwittingly offended?
I mean I am pro breastfeeding... So, if I read a post that says: forumula milk is as high quality as breast milk... I "could" be offended. But I wouldn't be! For it's an opinion. It's not mine - & I would challenge that opinion in someone else... I would challenge it as this is a forum where people come to be informed, educated & supported. So therefore I think there is a responsibility to be factual...
I just don't know how far you can take the criticising a system could be seen as criticising an individuals choice...
I had an epidural - I succomed to pressure. It wasn't the fault of the system it was a choice I made albeit in an informed manner. I could blame the doctor, the midwife, my husband the weather for my choice. But in the end it was mine. I got an epidural headache as I chose an intervention.
But I criticisie the system all the time - and will continue to as the system doesn't serve women well in my opinion. '
Just some thoughts whilst juggling eating kids - so excuse diction and spelling!
I feel the same way Inanna, I don't blame anyone for my births unfolding the way they did. I was angry at the way I was treated, but I soon learnt that I did the best that I could at the time, as I only had a certain amount of information/eduction/empowerment. Which is probably what makes me so passionate about making this information accessible to the wider public now. It's not to pee off the medical profession or the general public. It's because women deserve the right to be able to have access to it. I would have wanted to know it, but I was part of a forum which didn't even go there. The forum (community) you hang in does influence your journey, I agree... lack of information is worse than loads of information (which you can pick and choose what you want to read/follow).
We're in a very messy state of our maternity system where births are very highly intervened, so in providing this information and trying to help make a change to the status quo, there are going to be feelings involved when people discover this for the first time. And yes sadly there are some people out there who do like to gloat and rub in their births - both natural and c/s.
You have to know when to challenge post's or peoples opinion's and when to stand by and let them vent out or say what is on their mind without voicing your own thoughts.
As passionate as one can be, you need to be able to bite your tongue and allow others to speak.
The system let me down....yes and if I knew then what I knew now I bet my bottom dollar things would have been totally different.
Its not just about educating people, its about maturity as aperson, experiencing bad, good or ugly and listening with your heart. Becasue no matter how much someone tell's you something, if your heart doesnt hear it it has fallen on deaf ears.
True Maz, like I said in a previous post, some will be ready to challenge their comfort zone and others not, and thats perfectly okay - we all go through growth and change at different times. I used to think I needed the best Ob, in the best hospital, and definitely private! Then I did some research in my own time and it changed... but not before two private births!!!
The beauty of a large forum like this one is that not only are you replying to one person, you are replying to a whole forum. So while I may not help the OP, there may be many others out there, all along different parts of their journey in terms of acceptance. Like you said, if you knew what you knew now.... so everyone's journey starts somewhere... maybe it's just one post that makes the lightbulb go on... and sometimes it's not even the one you expect. :)
Yes Kelly & I come from that place too. I was in the enviable position of having a large knowledge base having my first baby. I knew hospitals, I knew birth. I chose a homebirth. I was ridiculed like you wouldn't believe. It was enough at times to make even I who had attended homebirths to wonder...
I transfered to hospital - I agreeed to an epidural to stave off the demands of the obstetrician that I needed a c/section. IF I had not the knowledge I had I would have crumbled. In thr throes of cx with a posterior baby being told I had to sign my chart to acknowledge the RWBH would not be responsible for a still birth or neonatal damage...
I knew that if I had a c/section my road to birtth more babies was fraught with "high risk"... I knew that it was better for me and for her to come out vaginally. I founght like a hyena.
Now, had I not had the knowledge base I absolutely would have given over my body. But I didn't.
I vowed at that moment that if I could prevent only 1 other woman this "fight" that if I could prevent 1 other woman from having to have mysogynistic energy enter her sacred birthing space, if I could prevent 1 other woman from having fear used as a lever to toe the systems line. Then I would.
Now, I really had to work on myself after her birth. Really really hard. It was tough. Because I was angry. But I was angry the most at me... I was angry at the system.
Now, I am not angry at the system - I want to change it... I want to change it so my daughters have a place, a choice & a voice.
For regardless of what many women think. The reality is that many women don't get given a voice in the system... (IMO)
Ok, so it may not have turned out into a 'poo' fight. Just looked like it was heading that way kwim? Im sure we've all seen threads where it just takes one little word or one 'name call' and that's it it's on for young and old. Thankfully this wasn't one of those occasions.
But just in the topic of people getting offended by something someone else has said. I think, and I know this has been said numerous times, that sometimes when your having a crap day, screaming toddler, crying baby whatever and you already feel lousy as a mother (come on we all have those days) and you sit down to read a post and something digs at you and it offends you and you bite back. Im sure with a clear head, and having a wonderful day you'd just go meh ok whatever. But I am sure we're all guilty of reading something that has given us the irrates, i know I am. But on my time in BB i've learnt to just let stuff roll off my back. Everyone has different opinions and like i've already said numerous times. Someone elses experience isn't going to 'tarnish', for lack of a better word, the birth that I had or how much I love my daughter. Just as a Vbacing, breastfeeding, cloth nappying mother wouldn't give to hoots about what any one elses opinions or views on their experience ( i mean negative like) Why should I ? Just as a lot of people don't accept my views on religion and the fact I am a bit of a paganist. That's their issue, not mine. I was actually, funnily enough having this conversation with one of my IRL BB friends the other day about why people can't be tolerant of other peoples views/religions/ opinions etc. It's quite weird to me. People are who they are no matter what color etc and that's it. Anyway, I digress. I get what you mean maz about your csection being a good experience etc. I remember after my birth (which by definition was traumatic) I still wasn't upset about it or depressed (for lack of a better word) by what had happend. And please don't misunderstand me and think I don't think debriefing after traumatic births is something people should do. I was just confused as I didn't have that kwim? And I know alot of people were shocked by that and pressured me into "dealing" with it. But when it came down to it, I dind't feel I had to. My baby was here no matter whether through my hoo hah or out the "sun roof" as i've heard it been referred too (lol, vicky) it didn't bother me. So I guess, it's just different strokes for different folks eh?
But when you're having those crap days with screaming toddlers, raging head and all that KL, you should stop what you're doing and calm down first. Thats also a really good idea for real life heated discussions also. If you don't think you can be constructive or your head is not in a good place, then make an effort not to post. Heck even stick a post it note on your monitor:
" I shalt not post while in a hairy mood "
or perhaps:
" I shalt not get on/remain on the computer with a screaming toddler and settle him / her down first "
:D
I meant after the screaming was over. Not during the screaming. I meant more along the lines of having a crapola day in general etc..
I understand Kirsty that we all can react badly when our heads are in a bad space. We all have bad days, touchy days - all of us.
However, again, that's our responsibility! We need to say: "only I can control my mouth (or fingers!)"...
It's just uncool & unkind to yell at others - it doesn't matter how bad our days are... YK?
Could not have said this better myself!!:
I was reading a birth story the other day (another site) where the mum had felt a strong pushing urge before she was fully dilated (she knew she was 7cms), knowingly pushed without being told to, then opted for an epidural - continued to push because she could still feel pressure then BLAMED THE EPIDURAL AND DR FOR HER CERVICAL TEARING!!
Everyone agreed it was the Dr's fault and considered it a result from the "cascade of intervention"!!
This really rubs me the wrong way because many women are fighting for Birth Choices and the right to make informed choices without pressure for intervention (home birth etc).
When women blame "the system" or the "cascade of intervention" because of choices they make in labour - then subsequently scream and complain about their treatment - they are giving OB's more reason to be more adamant about taking choice away from women out of fear of women making bad choices then suing them!(and I'm not talking about the cascade where women are pushed into intervention)
With every decision comes a consequence and it is up to WOMEN to make the decisions and read the pros and cons for themselves to every general scenario well before her first contraction. It's only then that she can remain adamant and confident when a scenario plays out in labour.
The system is made up of indiviuals not a mindless mass or collective. We need models of care where the woman works in partnership with her care providers with this comes the need to be informed and be responsible for your own decisions too.
The whole structure needs to change. Our whole society is set up for us to not take responsibility and experts and power figures to control us. We have all grown up in this culture and it is hard to take back the power when you dont realise it is yours to have . We have become dependant on approval and permission from authority figures such as doctors and other experts. The power was always there we just didn't realise it. What about the recent story of the hospital sending the police around to a womans home when she didn't turn up to a booked induction that she had told them she wasn't having. That is imtimidation the hospital later appologised and the woman had a waterbirth at home the next day.
Im not sure I would agree that by making poor decisions ending up with undesired outcomes then complaining about them is a justification for obs to be more adamant to control or limit the decisions of women. That sort of smacks of women being silly little things and so they deserve to be controlled and told what to do. Is that how you see it ?
I really dont think it is possible or should be expected that women should research every possible scenario that could occur be informed yes but having to research every scenario some women might not have time for this others dont care it is the manner in which this information is presented at the time of an emergency so as to leave biases out of the equation present the facts and allow the woman to decide what she wants and then support her through the experience.
When we are bombarded with messages that epidurals are a godsend, that docs know exactly what they're doing, and that we must be good little girls and do just what the doc says, no wonder women get angry when they realise just how disempowered their whole approach to reproduction has been. It is NOT an individual failing if a woman chooses interventions that harm her or her baby - it is societal and something that has been actively thrust onto us all our lives. So, yeah, I have to disagree with that, too, though I can see how it appears that way on the surface.
Not what I said or meant. It doesn't justify their want to control however whether or not we like it we are in a litigious society and because of this choice has become limited.:
See it from the viewpoint that we are in an age right now where women want control of their birthing choices (rightfully so) and let's be realistic - OB's are crapping themselves thinking of the money they'll lose if control is gone.....yes I see this BUT when someone stands up to an OB and goes against their advice then things go wrong, you've just handed them the very justification they need to control the next woman.....
I am all for women speaking out about the injustices this maternity system causes (high intervention, c-section rates, no choice for birthing options such as home birth etc) however I think there is too much blaming when an informed choice is made by the woman and then something happens so they blame the system or the OB automatically.
Not every single possible scenario - that would mean she becomes an OB - I am talking about being informed about general scenarios such as epidural, premature pushing, alternatives in monitoring, induction, c-section - general options within those situations so that informed decisions can be made....I am not talking about unforseen circumstances that are treated as an emergency with little time to consider the decision prior to making a choice THEN having time to reflect after the fact....:
My whole point in all of this is where there is choice there is consequence. We are not in an age anymore where Dr knows all and women are happy to let them run their birthing experiences. BUT with the demand for birthing options to be given back to the women in our society comes a new responsibility for knowing and being responsible for the consequences - it's only when you know the risk vs benefits can you make a birth choice that is right for the individual.
No see I agree with that - my point has been missed.:
What I meant was it's unfair of a woman to blame her direct action (in this example pushing prior to being fully dilated) on an epidural which clearly had no bearing on whether her cervix would have torn or not. I agree that it isn't a failing if a woman chooses interventions - my first labour was filled with them by my own choosing!
I just feel that where there is blame on interventions for blames sake, we are giving the OB's exactly what they want!
I think I get what you are saying Mumma... I also agree with your sentiment.
However, I think the two separate issues are overlapping & causing some confusion..
I believe our maternity services are medicalised & driven by fear - I believe that as mothers we will do anything to protect our babies - so when emotive language is used in the throes of labour this fear can propell a woman to make decisions for her body & her baby that she may not have otherwise made.
When I said the above quote I made a choice to have an epidural as I was being harassed to have a c/section - I was in quite horrendous pain. I made the choice to have an epidural that was fully informed (because I was educated in epidurals)
I cannot lay blame on my care provider for the outcome of my epidural as it was a risk I took, a fully informed one... Hoever, had the doctor not been so agressive & pushy about a c/section I would not have made that choice.... However, I am responsibile for my choice... Do you get me?
The system failed in that my wishes were not listened to. That is I will not have surgery unless my baby is showing signs of distress. I was hounded & harassed.
I too believe that as consumers we need to take more responsibility for our choices & our decisions.
I read and hear often about women having tests, interventions, c/sections, operations etc because it was deemed best. However, there seems to be a thread of handing over our power, choice to a those that are seen as in a position of 'authority"... We have a society that seeks to lay blame for any bad feeling that comes up for us. I feel bad because you said breast is best. I feel bad because you said medicalisation of birth takes away a sacred rite/right. I feel bad because you said..... Nothing is brought back to the I... I am feeling something - why would that be... I am responsibile for my feelings and thus my reactioms...
That doctors will "save us" from dealing with the hard stuff. There is a fear of the hard stuff. I challenge always that the hard stuff is our mettle. It forges us. We have a respomsibility to be informed - to seek our the information that will inform us. Not just say: "whatever you think is best"... Now, clearly one who has studied for countless years and worked in a field has more experience & knowledge - that's why we seek them out to care for us. BUT again there is a problem. Women hire doctors and midwives & systems of care that they have doubts about. They don't like his or her manner, or some of their views but he or she is the best or whatever reason they have. Women need to listen to their doubts and their concerns & seek out care and care providers that marry with their own ethos...
We cannot engage a high risk obstetrician for our birth in a private hospital and wonder why we got a c/section. For statistically that's what you'll likely get.
Just as you cannot engage a homebirth midwife to assist you to deliver a baby at 32 weeks at home. You will likely run into grave problems. (not that a homebirth midwife would do this but just to illustrate)
This handing over of power happens in all areas of health care.
Ill or injured clients defer to the knowledge of others without seeking out information, stats and experiences. It is this labile mind set that causes issues.
Whilst we continue to hand our health/maternity care over to others without owning responsibility for our decisions we will have unsatisfactory care.
I have not made a single decision withoit researching it first. So many occassions whilst Imogen was in NICU and special care. I was pressured to make decisions that my intuition screamed no at... I was steadfast. At times I was treated like a fool - but mostly I was treated with respect as I clearly knew what I was on about...
We all need to foster that sense of self responsibility for our care. It's like smoking and wondering WTH you get cancer or cardiac disease, then suing the company... It's not okay (IMO) You smoke you die and take those that passively smoke around you down with you...
You educate yourself and make a choice that doesn't pan out - you accept that you made an error in judgement. You can't then search for a scapegoat... Do you get my illustration?
Similarly with my first birth I had a midwife that didn't gel with my spirituality... She was a very openly evangelistical Christian. She also was not good at responsibility. She was one who blamed the system, delayed transfer etc etc. I overloked it all as she was the only homebirth midwife available to me at that time.
I know that I was unable to progress largely due to my discomfort with her... That's not her fault! She was who she was (beautiful and kind - just not on my wavelength) - I made a choice against my better judgement. I didn't listen to my inner voice... I set myself up for difficulty & I got them!
It's really about that - self responsibility for our choices and actions... :hug:
YES !! Exactly!!! Sorry - I have a foggy head today from a 2 year old that kept me up last night (toddler bed transition):
But exactly!! Women want more control over our maternity health care choices - and I think it's brilliant. But with that choice comes responsibility. You're right - while we have no control we have no choice. Dr's will do what they will do and then it's the women that feel like the victim (which I totally get!).
And yes, Obstetric choices are based on fear - unfortunately this is all too common and happened with me as well in my first labour. I was told with external monitoring that one thing they look for before inducing is heartrate and Cooper's heartrate was enough to go straight to a c-section.
I fought with everything I had to have my vaginal birth - and he was fine. Had I have listened or consented his birth would have been a very different one!
Oooh, yes, I did miss the bit about her not being fully dilated! To me, that illustrates how little a lot of women trust their own instincts to birth, because the messages are getting all screwed up in our heads between well-meaning advice from people we know and self-interested advice from a lot of Obs (not all, I realise). I still can't blame an individual for that erosion of inner knowledge and trust in the birth process that is the product of decades of telling women they don't actually know how to do birth without the help of someone with a certificate and fellowship of a particular doctors' college :(
We ARE still in an age where the doctor knows all and the woman just does as instructed...I KNOW these women! There is resistance to it and some of us are working against this, but we're not the norm by a long shot, or the system would be like the UK's, the Netherlands, Scandinavia, Canada and NZ, where c-section rates are lower because women have truer choice and greater access to real information. When interventions happen in these contexts, it's got a far more genuine reason than unnecessary interventions in the first place.
Anyway, that's my perspective. I don't condemn women who choose interventions, because that's not fair. I look to the wider context of what led her there and I'm not happy with that context in this country :(
You're right - and it's crap in this country. It boggles my mind why we (along with America) are so stripped of choice when it comes to birth BUT with rally's like Canberra and reform reviews underway - we are going to get there.:
I absolutely agree with you too Maya! I am speaking from my perspective... Because I am informed and I am empowered.
There are women like you and myself that are informed and empowered.
However, the erosion of women's belief in birth and their own bodies has happened over a long time. I cannot "blame" women for that. I can hold the medicalisation of birth responsible - however remembering that women often didn't give over their belief in their bodies quickly. It happened insidiously, based on womens own need to keep their babies safe. It happened I believe in the beginning based on the superiority of men's minds to the innate knowledge of women - however that's a whole other thread.! So blame is defunct. It happened - it's history. Now let's make new history. Let's breed and nurture a whole new wave of woman that questions, makes informed choices and owns her part in this decision.... :hug: