4 year old kinder - or 3 year old again? (VIC)

[Lenny]

DS1 is late March 08 baby. He is small (height and weight).

He has been attending 3 year old kinder this year (well, really, it's just 3 year old playtime). He loves it. He always asks if he can go. I have been parent helper 3 times and I know he loves the structure and the variety and he genuinely seems to enjoy the routine etc.

He'll be turning 4 in March next year and is on the waitlist for a 4 year old kinder spot.

There seems to be immense pressure NOT to send him. Bearing in mind i am not a local, so the pressure i feel i'm getting is from mother's group and from the 4 year old kinder programme. I get the impression that they are struggling with numbers and would prefer less kids in 2012. There seems to be this magical date of having your 4th birthday before the end of december 2011, and then you are 'old enough'.

I realise that DS is small. He's capable though - very physically capable and certainly keeps up with his peers in other regards. And the start of next year is 5 month away, which is a lot when you are not even 3 and a half! I think if he went to 3 year old kinder AGAIN next year, then he'd be bored.

Is 4 year old kinder a huge step up from 3? I don't know any 4 year olds, nor have i seen a 4 year old group to 'compare'. I have no desire to throw him in to something he's not ready for, but I don't know about holding him back. I don't know that i'm getting a straight answer from anyone i ask.

This turned out to be a LONG post! Any advice appreciated!

[Amity]

Funding wise, in Victoria, if he was to do 2 years of 4yo kinder you have to apply for special funding. I think it's probably more about making absolutely sure that he is going to be ready for school the following year - rather than having to repeat 4yo, it's easier for them to repeat 3yo. And cheaper from the kinder's perspective too.

It really depends on the child. I know some children born in November/December who were already six when they started school. And I also know kids who were born in April who were 4 when they started. It's such an individual issue.

Personally - if it were me, (and having parents who were both teachers, my Mum specialising in gifted/talented and special education) I would hold him back another year. He's small, and he's a boy. You can extend him at home much better than they would extend him at kinder.

And if he does go to school - he's going to be 16 turning 17 in the March of Year 12. It makes such a difference at that stage. All his friends will be almost 18, he's going to feel left out, and academically and socially that extra year is massive. The maturity difference between kids who will be up to 15 months older than him, will be huge.

My brothers and I were all born in March, April and May. The cut-off dates for our years was June 30. My younger brother was at least 15 months older than some of these kids, and my other brother and I were a year older than some. There was a significant and noticable difference between us and those kids. They were obviously younger, both emotionally and physically, and there was a distinct difference in our academic achievements, even though we were from similar backgrounds.

However, I haven't spent much time with your DS and it's such an individual thing - you are his Mum, you are probably in the best position to make that decision. Good luck!

[Lenny]

That's good Divvy, that's what i wanted to know. I guess I am thinking in the short term - his needs now. Not thinking about that fact that he'll be young at high school.
So, do we think it's better to be older and maybe need extension work at school than be younger and struggle a bit. I guess if i look at it that way, then yes, perhaps it's a good idea to hold him back.

[Kmn]

My son is also one of the youngest ones in 3yo kindy (March) and he will be going in to the 4yo next year. Being bored in school isn't much fun either, and we felt that unless he was struggling we didn't want to hold him back. His 3yo teacher pointed out that he would be one of the youngest (and we had the impression that she thought it was unusual that we would prefer that he move to 4yo), but that "there were no red flags" that made it necessary for him to do another year at 3yo.
Next year we will see how he goes - if he needs to do 4yo kindy again then it will be more expensive for us than repeating 3yo, but so be it.

I'm not sure that there is a correct answer for this - more that you need to stay involved with the kindy (as you obviously are) and see how he's going.

[Khaleesi]

My DD2 is a late March 09 baby & i've spoken to a lot of teachers and everyone of them has said i'm better off keeping her home the extra year.
They all seem to agree that do they fine up till High School then a lot of them start to struggle & fall behind.

[nothing2lose]

My mum is a kinder teacher (has been for about 40 years now ) who is also qualified for primary teaching. She always recommends that kids start school when they are a little older, in preference to starting early. Again, she cites the high school thing. With my DD she missed the cut-off to start school by one week. I could have pushed the point (as she was "ready") but I decided not to start her until the following year.
If you like, I can ask her opinion on whether your DS would be better to do two years of three-year-kinder or four-year-kinder....

[peanutter]

personally, I think it depends so much on the child individually, and the learning environment provided in both the school and the home.

I'm a June baby, my sister is May, we both started kinder at 3 and school at 4 - but there's a difference between our ENTER scores of about 20 points ... we both worked hard, we both picked the best subjects for us, but we just have different aptitudes ...

my brothers are December and January babies - so they were both 4 at the start of kinder and 5 at the start of school ... and there's a difference of about 12 points between their ENTER scores too.

personally, I think a kid who is going to perform well is going to perform well whether they start at 4 or 5.

I reckon they'll mature and progress socially and academically based on what they're exposed to ... not whether they're born in month a of month b ...

[Caz1971]

Im confused. My DS who is turning 4 next yr in March goes to daycare three days a week. Next yr they go to kindy (in the daycare), so will he be in kindy the whole time (3 days a week), is it a different kind of payment to daycare. Should I keep him there for 2 yrs (start school to be in 2014), turning 6 that yr. Im am so so confused. i cant even remember with my first DS (he is now 14 in yr 8) how I went about it. Although we had moved from sydney to qld now to melbourne so the eldest has changed school alot. He also had to go back a yr when we moved from syd to qld.

[Beach Mama]

If he turns 5 in March you can start him at school in 2013 if you want to, if he goes to kinder at daycare it should be included in your day care fees. Sessional kinder/preschool is a different payment, we pay around $250 a term and they go for anywhere from 10.5 hours to 15 hours a week depending on the kinder. For eg. my dd will be going to 4 yr old kinder and doing 8:30-12:30 Monday, 8:30-1:30 Tuesday, and 1:30-4:30 on a Thursday but they are all different days and times. You will find that if he goes to 4 year old kinder or daycare they will let you know if they think he will be ready for school the following year.

[myturn]

I know that most of this thread was written a few months ago, but I just wanted to put my two cents in for what that's worth

I'm going to be a bit of a devil's advocate here, so please bear with me - I will preface what I am about to say with the fact that I hear everything everyone has written here, and I agree with the sentiments. I understand why most people have suggested holding a child back is a good idea... however....

I wonder if it has occured to people that the reason there is such a large age gap between students is BECAUSE people hold their children back. If NO ONE was able to pick and choose which age a child started school (and as a consequence kinder) then there would always only be 12 months age gap between children.

From a research perspective the evidnece is actually clear that in the long term (i.e. by the time a child is 14) the gap between the child and his/her peers is the SAME is if they had not been repeated, and in fact the negatives at this time can be/often are quite substantial - in terms of self esteem/confidence etc. That is not to say that there are no short term positives - there can be some positives, but the negatives in the long term, for the most part, outweigh the positives that do occur.

Having said that, if you are going to repeat - best to do it before they start school - and at the latest prep (or whatever your equivalent is if you are not in VIC).

If your child is going to struggle academically - then holding them back is not going to 'fix' that - they need support to acheive to their potential, but there may always be a gap between their ability and that of others - thats okay!! we all have strengths and weaknesses, and there is a distribution of ability in, and between, all of us, no matter how old we are.

kindergartens and teachers often suggest repeating for children who are not ready - but what are you going to do if your child is 'not ready' every year? He/she can't repeat more than once! You can't stay at primary school or high school forever if you are "not ready".

There is variability amongst us all, and whether we like it or not, some of us will have children who cope, and some of us will have children who don't. Best thing is to set up a positive environment at home where learning is fun, enjoyable and part of every day life, keep regular routines to ensure your child can be the best they can be, and choose a school that has values that are important to you and consistent with your beliefs - Be your child's advocate (cause not one else will for you!), but accept and work with their strengths and weaknesses the best you can. This variability will occur, whether we have a 1 month, 6 month, 12 month, 24 month, or 5 year age gap between people - all we can hope for is to reduce the variability as much as possible so children can learn the best they can.

I am convinced that repeating is not the answer. We need to make sure our curriculum is catering for these diverse needs - and to be honest teachers need to do this whether a child starts at 4, 5 or 6. Different children will be 'ready' to learn in their own time - so lets just provide the opportunity for them to learn.

How can you know what a child is going to be ready for when they are only 3!!??!! There is so much development going on at this time, and while you DO need to think about the future, you also need to KNOW the future to make accurate decisions.... as you can't possibly know whether your child will cope with starting school, being 11 in year 7, being 18 in year 12 or starting uni at 17, you just have to do your best to help your child be the best they can be in the moment you are in....

and I come back to my original point... by holding your child back, you are helping to actually CREATE the bigger age gap, that needn't be there in the first place.

For a well researched article about the actual research on repeating - please check out this link.
http://www.bounceback.com.au/sites/d...epeat%3F_0.pdf

I hope this information gives everyone some food for thought and a different perspective on their choices.

Ultimately as others have said, the needs of the individual child MUST be taken into account -- but I would argue, that there are very few genuine reasons for repeating - if you must, do it at kinder - but be aware that you are helping create the problem that worries you in the first place.

sorry if this has gone on a bit - best of luck whatever everyone decides - I hope this sparks some thoughts about the other side of repeating

[Beach Mama]

I am really tired and need to go to bed but need to reply and probably come back to reply properly.. but ....

kindergartens and teachers often suggest repeating for children who are not ready - but what are you going to do if your child is 'not ready' every year? He/she can't repeat more than once! You can't stay at primary school or high school forever if you are "not ready".

Well kids have to start by 6 so you can't keep doing it forever, however as a teacher of many kids in prep who really, really aren't ready I have to say that we don't see problems related to kids ages and the gaps in age, there are academic gaps regardless. Teachers DO cater for individual needs based on what kids need regardless of how old they are. When we are teaching them we teach to the child -we don't stop to ask or think about how old each child be before we teach them.

If kids are genuinely struggling at kinder though, chances are that will continue at school and if they get half way through 4yr kinder and are still struggling it is worth looking at holding them back if possible (in some cases it's not because of age - for eg. my DD cannot start school next year in 2012 and has to to start in 2013 which is the year she turns 6. We don't have a choice, however some people who fall outside of that do have a choice and it is reasonable to expect them to look at if their child is ready. If DD was born in April she could be going next year, she would academically be SO ready, socially close to ready, but I would have huge concerns about how tired she would get because if she has no nap right now she is beside herself I am super glad the choice is out of my hands.

Not sure I have response as well or as eloquently as I wanted to so might have to be back in the morning with a fresh brain on.

ETA: We should be looking more and more to Europe and countries like Finland, where kids don't start to learn to read or start school until they are 7 because they are not developmentally ready to do so. Instead we look to the US where we are going more and more down a data and statistic driven path where kids individual needs are not looked at, and where kids level of reading takes precedence over the fact that they are kids and simply need the chance to explore, play, develop curiosity and create their own learning. Off my soapbox and into bed now

[Lenny]

Thanks to everyone for the replies. n2l - if you can ask, that'd be great, but don't go to any trouble.

Given DS1's size, DH has always said hold him back. I had to convince him that letting him go was a good idea.
You've given me lots to think about.
I googled montessori, because i know they have the 3-6 year olds together in one learning group. I don't know much about it, but my mum has done a placement in a montessori school in NZ and liked the whole atmosphere.

[Beach Mama]

MOntessori is great, you will find that he will need to do the 4 year old stream in kinder to go to a Montessori primary school though so make sure you enrol early if you decide to go down that path.

I am not sure about the holding back from 4 being worse than 3 year old? I would think that going to 4 year old kinder 2 years in a row might be better because it is more hours than the 3 year old kinder? If the only reason you are looking at holding him back is his size I would have a chat to your kinder teacher as I wouldn't be holding back on size alone - yes boys do better in general if they are held back a year, but you need to look at fine motor skills (writing etc) as well as social skills, and academic skills. If he is developmentally ready in all those areas I would be inclined to send him to 4 year old kinder next year - in 18 mths he may have a big growth spurt and reassess at the end of 4 year old kinder, or this time next year.
Good luck hun - it is so hard to know what to do and I am a teacher, plus thankful my kids are born in May and October and the decision is sort of made based on when they were born!

[Ginger]

Hi Lenny
my ds2 is a late feb baby and we could send him to 3 yo kinder next year but have decided to defer it until the year after.
have you spoken to his teacher about it? what is their advice?
personally, if i was in your position (without knowing your ds at all) i would be tempted to do 2 years of 3 yo kinder. reason being is that he will make friends there next year that he will go up to 4 yo with.

[melbel]

I agree with Divvy, as a primary school teacher myself I would be inclined to hold him back....we will prolly hold Connor back as well depending on how things are at the time. There is a good montessori kinder just behind Lloyd park here hun....it is not cheap but I have heard awsome reports about it.
Google Montessori childrens house langwarrin....

[*EJ*]

DS1 is late Jan, he turned 4 this year and is currently attending 3yr old kinder. He loves it but i do see he could have done with a little more stimulation (more so this second half of the year i have noticed) than 1 afternoon a week which is all our 3yr old provides. But having said that i'm really happy with my decision

After much discussion with various friends/teachers i decided to keep him back, i was aware that he may get a bit bored but i figured i am at home and i will provied the extra stimulation if i have to to get through that time. The thing i have been told most commonly about holding them back that extra year is that they may be fully capable academically but it's the social side of things that they can often struggle with. Hopefuly that extra year of maturity will be a benefit in many ways.

DS2 is March also and i have done the same thing, i have him down to hopefuly get a place in 3yr old kinder in 2013.

DD is Dec and i'm not too sure about her yet, they say they girls tend to be a little more mature but my SIL held my niece (March) back and she said it was the best thing for her.

I understand it comes down to the individual a lot but for me i have the option with each of my children and will most likely be taking it. I was 4 when i started school and struggled all the way until i got to Grade 3 and they decided to hold me back. Yes it may be been the best thing for me academically but my confidence really suffered. I'm just trying to avoid that right from the beginning for my children.

Good luck in getting a place, i'm in a similar area to you and it's not easy. DS1 was just offered a place in 4yr old at my first preference!! Yay I'm really excited for him becuase i know he's going to love it.

Happy decision making

[Lenny]

Thanks Nelle. I really want to do swimming and we did one gym class too which was good. I find it tricky with DS2 in tow. I think i might try to get 3 hours of ODC for the little brother, so that i can feel like i really have time with the big one.
We do have a lot of variety with mother's group and ABA and ODC and one kinder session a week.

99% sure of keeping him home. I never worry he's bored at home - just thought he'd be bored (and possibly disruptive) at kinder. I'd miss him next year anyway, i think!

There is a good montessori kinder just behind Lloyd park here hun....it is not cheap but I have heard awsome reports about it.
Google Montessori childrens house langwarrin....

It's gone into liquidation, i think. There is still one linked to Karingal Primary though.

MadB - mum's a head teacher at a kindy in NZ. Bless her, she thinks her oldest grandchild is wonderful and totally gifted!!! Bias for sure.

[Lenny]

I believe the 'official' cut off is 30 April.
I felt really good about my decision and knew my reasons and I was sure it was the right thing. I spent some time finding a great 3 year old kinder for DS1 for next year. Turns out i'm too late already. Their lists closed 30 June. Grrr.