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thread: circumcision decision?????

  1. #19
    Registered User

    Jun 2007
    ...not far enough away :)
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    Like everyone has said, you will get people for and against. It's another one of those debates that will go on for a long time unless they start doing it as routine when the baby is born you will always have to make the decision.
    We didn't get DS done, & yes DH is!!! I don't think it's exactly a gd reason to choose to do so to look like Dad to avoid explaining it down the track. When a child is at the age that they want to know why, you will also be explaining many other things......that's just the way of a child. When they are old enough they will understand the difference. And yes they may see Daddy's and wonder why their's is different, but Daddy's won't be the only one they see & unless you love to run around the house naked all the time LOL (would if I could) they will prob see the boys at school, footy & so on more than anyone else's and start asking about that too & that's just something else you will need to explain. And it seems less & less people do it these days so they would definately feel different there. Anyway, I don't care if people do or don't get it done, it's their choice but IMO for that reason it seems a bit silly.
    We had the discussion at our Mum's group just the other day & at the time there were 5 little boys there all the same age & only one of them was done.
    Also when a doctor refuses to do something & you have to actually find someone who will do it as not many do, that doesn't sit well with me either. But again, whatever you decide it's your decision & it will be right for you. I would love it if it was either routine at birth or not done at all, that would cut out one of the tough decisions we have to make for our precious little ones.

  2. #20
    BellyBelly Life Subscriber
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    Jan 2006
    Port Macquarie, NSW
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    There is a mounting body of evidence to suggest that cirumcision helps to prevent the spread of HIV but ofcourse it's nowhere near as effective as education and a condom. New Scientist had a really interesting feature about it a while back - if you're a subscriber you can read the online version.
    I did read about that, Chloe, a while ago. Much of that evidence comes from public health research into the HIV epidemic in Africa, which is indicating that African men who are circumcised have a lower incidence of HIV than those that are uncircumcised. I believe the WHO was considering recommending routine circumcision for third world countries where access to condoms and/or education about their usage was not available. The same situation doesn't apply to our society, and even the WHO were stopping short of making that recommendation because of the risks of the circumcision itself being performed in third world countries with inadequate public health standards.

    So, I don't really see the HIV argument as being an adequate one to justify circumcision. As you say, education and condom usage are far more effective ways to avoid HIV. However I respect your religious beliefs, and as a parent, your right to make the choice to circumcise your children.

  3. #21
    BellyBelly Life Subscriber
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    Jan 2006
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    Also when a doctor refuses to do something & you have to actually find someone who will do it as not many do, that doesn't sit well with me either. But again, whatever you decide it's your decision & it will be right for you. I would love it if it was either routine at birth or not done at all, that would cut out one of the tough decisions we have to make for our precious little ones.
    In a way, you've answered your own question there. The reason it is so hard to find someone to perform circumcisions is the same reason it's not done routinely at birth - because the available evidence shows that the benefits of the procedure are questionable, and are outweighed by the risks. The few health professionals that do perform circumcisions are, to a certain extent, going against the available medical evidence. This is risky territory for child health professionals, as it opens them up to legal action that they have no defence against - in a court of law, if they are sued for performing a routine circumcision,
    it is virtually impossible to justify it.

    I should clarify that I am not against circumcision for medical reasons - there are a few childhood conditions, such as phimosis (a tight foreskin that impedes the flow of urine and makes it painful to have an erection in adolescence and adulthood) that will require circumcision to preserve normal sexual and urological function. However, when you look at he statistics, if you advocate routine circumcision in an attempt to avoid conditions like these, you need to circumcise between 10 and 20 children who would not have developed penile problems, for each child who would.

  4. #22

    Mar 2004
    Sparta
    12,662

    Yael, I've saved you the trouble
    Male circumcision: A contentious cut
    23 November 2006

    Andy Coghlan

    "THERE are already queues of men demanding circumcision," says Mark Stirling, regional director of UNAIDS for Eastern and Southern Africa. His team has been investigating how to help African governments meet this sudden and unexpected surge in demand for male circumcisions.

    Last week, Swaziland became the first African country to make voluntary circumcision more widely available, eventually hoping to offer it to any man who is sexually active. Another four - Lesotho, Zambia, Tanzania and Kenya - have already consulted the public on the issue and are deciding whether to follow suit.

    So why are African men swarming to volunteer for a painful procedure that faces growing opposition in countries such as the US - where it has been practised routinely for decades - principally because of claims that it blunts sexual pleasure (see "To snip or not to snip").

    The reason is a welter of new evidence suggesting that circumcision protects men against HIV and other sexually transmitted diseases. A study published this month showed that in a group of 510 men from Christchurch, New Zealand, who were followed from birth to age 25, cases of sexually transmitted diseases (STDs), including syphilis, could have been cut by half had they been circumcised at birth (Pediatrics, vol 118, p 1971).

    The most robust evidence that circumcision cuts transmission of HIV came from a study of more than 3000 men living in Orange Farm township near Johannesburg, published last year. Volunteers who were newly circumcised at the outset of the study were 60 per cent less likely than uncircumcised men to be infected with HIV (New Scientist, 29 October 2005, p 5).

    "It means that if you have 10 infections in a group of men, you'd get only four infections if they had been circumcised," says lead author Bertran Auvert of the University of Versailles in France. The results were so stunning that the trial was halted early to let uncircumcised volunteers receive surgery too.

    “The results were so stunning that the trial was halted early to let uncircumcised volunteers receive the treatment too”
    By mid-December, interim results should be in from two similar studies in Kenya and Uganda to see if the benefits can be replicated elsewhere in Africa. Panels at the US National Institutes of Health will check the results - unknown even to the researchers themselves so far - to judge if they are so unequivocally positive that these trials too should be halted early to offer circumcision to everyone.

    Other African countries considering routine circumcision are holding fire till these results from Kenya and Uganda are in. But ever since the publication of the Orange Farm study, UNAIDS (the Joint UN Programme on HIV/AIDS) has been anticipating huge increases in demand for the procedure and working feverishly to draft background information, guidance and advice to governments who want to offer it more widely. Currently, around two-thirds of African men get circumcised for cultural reasons, either at birth or puberty, but the remaining third are often in the belts of southern Africa worst affected by HIV.

    However, the concept remains controversial for several reasons. Few countries in Africa presently have the facilities or staff to meet a huge surge in demand for male circumcisions, which until now have largely been carried out by tribal leaders. The procedure can sometimes result in fatal bleeding, cross-infection or even accidental amputation of part of the penis - especially if not performed by trained medical practitioners.

    For this reason, UNAIDS is making safety top priority for countries considering such programmes, and has drafted guidance on the logistics and surgical options, as well as legal and ethical advice. "We're concerned we don't give opportunities for quacks and charlatans to injure and mutilate young men," says Stirling.

    “We're concerned we don't give opportunities for quacks and charlatans to injure and mutilate young men”
    This week it presented its latest advice to interested governments at a meeting in Nairobi, Kenya. The gathering was intended to help them decide whether circumcision is likely to prove acceptable, whether they can afford it, or whether alternatives such as more free condoms would work better. Other countries considering such programmes include South Africa, Mozambique and Botswana.

    "We're not trying to stampede any countries into a particular policy, but to look at what suits them," says Catherine Hankins, chief scientific adviser to UNAIDS. Practical options might include mobile clinics, for example, or equipping hospitals to carry out the procedure, while allowing traditional practitioners to manage ceremonial aspects.

    Aside from the surgical risks, there are other hazards to consider. The most serious is "disinhibition", the possibility that circumcised men may overestimate the protection it provides from HIV, forsaking other methods of defence such as condoms and having fewer sexual partners. Using fewer condoms would pose an even greater risk for women, who already account for the majority of Africans infected with HIV (see Chart). UNAIDS says it is vital that this doesn't happen, and believes men need to be educated about the risks. "Circumcision doesn't mean any less emphasis on condom use or partner reduction," says Stirling.

    If countries do decide to introduce circumcision programmes, it will have to be done with great political and social care and sensitivity, adds Hankins. "Countries will need to know what proportion of their population is already circumcised, what the current complication rates are, who's doing the procedure and what people's attitudes to it might be."

    In Kenya, for example, 80 per cent of men are circumcised, but not members of the large Luo tribe. Their attitudes must be taken into account if voluntary circumcision programmes are to meet their goal of cutting HIV infections. "We're trying to assist countries to be ready for decision making for what they want to do," says Hankins. "But there's no single solution."

    Meanwhile, researchers are debating whether the findings in Africa strengthen the case for circumcision to help halt HIV and other sexually transmitted diseases in western countries. Last week the UK's Health Protection Agency warned of a dramatic increase in cases of syphilis, while HIV and other STDs are also on the rise. Auvert doubts that there is a strong case. "All these factors imply it's very important for Africa, but it's not so clear for the rest of the world," he says. "You need high HIV prevalence to make circumcision programmes worthwhile."

    The American Academy of Pediatrics says it is not yet ready to shift from the conclusion it published in 1999 that any evidence of medical benefit is too weak to merit routine circumcision of babies. However, Jack Swanson of the McFarland Clinic in Ames, Iowa, who co-authored the policy, says the academy would be revisiting it in the next two years to take account of the latest evidence from New Zealand, Africa and elsewhere. "Maybe it will lead to a change," he says.

    From issue 2579 of New Scientist magazine, 23 November 2006, page 8-9
    To snip or not to snip


    Whatever the scope for circumcision to prevent the spread of HIV in Africa, it is doing little to silence groups in the US and elsewhere who oppose the practice. "It will doubtless become the latest excuse to justify circumcision," says John Warren, a retired consultant physician who chairs Norm-UK, a group that opposes routine circumcision of babies. Like similar groups, Norm is principally concerned about two things. One is the (contested) claim that circumcision robs men of sensitive tissue important for sexual pleasure. The other is the ethical objection to circumcising healthy babies who cannot consent and also suffer pain from the procedure.

    "In America, we've mutilated most penises by taking off the best part," says Marilyn Milos, founder of the National Organization of Circumcision Information Resource Centers in San Anselmo, California. "We don't have a right to cut off normal body parts."

    Opponents and backers of circumcision do at least agree on one thing - there has been very little research into the effect of circumcision on sexual pleasure.

    Sensitive issues

    Warren cites a postmortem study published in 1996 in the British Journal of Urology (vol 77, p 291) that found particularly high numbers of sensitive cells called Meissner's corpuscles in the folds and ridges formed when a foreskin is retracted behind the glans. But the extent to which these findings mean that circumcised men experience less pleasure is not known.

    Backers of circumcision say that given the history of the practice any widespread problems with sexual pleasure would have come to light long ago. A study in Turkey in 2004 found no negative impact on sexual function; circumcised men did take longer to reach orgasm, but this was considered beneficial.

    Meanwhile, a separate study in the US found that circumcised men were less anxious about sex, especially elderly men, and suffered only half the amount of penile dysfunction as they aged (The Journal of the American Medical Association, vol 277, p 1052). And a study of 15 men in 2002 in The Journal of Urology (vol 168, p 2134) reported no difference in reported sexual drive, ability to achieve erection, ejaculation or overall satisfaction.

    Gateway for disease

    Better understood is how circumcision prevents the transmission of HIV and other sexually transmitted diseases.

    A recent study by Betty Donoval and her colleagues at the University of Illinois in Chicago describes how HIV targets and infects specific white blood cells found on the inner mucosal surface of the foreskin. These are not present on the surface of a circumcised penis (American Journal of Clinical Pathology, vol 125, p 386).

    "It's easier for the virus to enter these cells in foreskin," says Helen Weiss of the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, lead author of a pivotal review in 2000 demonstrating the benefits of circumcision. "No one is saying that circumcision completely protects, but the evidence suggests it at least halves infection," she says.

    The area under the foreskin is also a warm, moist environment favourable to pathogenic organisms. This helps explain this month's findings from New Zealand that circumcision offers protection against other sexually transmitted diseases, including syphilis and chlamydia (see main story). "My study strengthens the case for general susceptibility to a range of infections in uncircumcised men," says David Fergusson of Christchurch School of Medicine and Health Sciences, who carried out the research.

    It also stokes the debate about whether all men - not just those in countries where HIV is rife - could benefit from having the snip. One claim used to justify routine circumcision of newborn babies is that it reduces their risk of infections of the urinary tract in the first year of life. But these are rare - for every 1000 babies, up to 14 uncircumcised infants would get infections compared with two circumcised babies. Circumcision also reduces the risk of penile cancer, but again this is very rare, affecting just 1 in every 100,000 men in the US.
    I did a search for circumcision to find the article and thsi came up too.
    WHO hails circumcision as vital in HIV fight
    31 March 2007
    NewScientist

    IT MAY not seem like the kindest cut, but circumcision has been hailed as a vital new way to combat HIV. In a report issued on 28 March, the World Health Organization and UNAIDS issued a series of recommendations to increase rates of circumcision in countries where the HIV problem is most serious.

    "We reviewed all the evidence, and the evidence is compelling," says Kim ****son, coordinator of the joint WHO/UNAIDS working group that produced the report.

    Studies in South Africa, Uganda and Kenya have recently shown that circumcised men are on average 60 per cent less likely than uncircumcised men to pick up the virus (New Scientist, 25 November 2006, p 8).

    “Circumcised men are 60 per cent less likely to pick up HIV than uncircumcised men”
    ****son says promoting the procedure would have greatest impact in countries where more than 15 per cent of heterosexual men are HIV-positive, but fewer than 20 per cent are circumcised. Swaziland, for example, where 40 per cent of adults are HIV-positive, has held two "circumcision Sundays", on which hospitals have offered the procedure.

    There are caveats, however. The procedure must be done by a trained physician, and men must realise that it doesn't provide full protection, so they should carry on using condoms and having fewer partners. "It's not a virtual condom, so you can't assume you're protected," ****son says.

    Newly circumcised men should also avoid sex for at least six weeks, until they're healed.

  5. #23
    rolymogs Guest

    .....
    Last edited by rolymogs; March 20th, 2008 at 01:05 PM.

  6. #24
    Registered User

    Jul 2006
    In Doula~ville
    1,112

    I agree with everyone else in the fact its such a personal decision.

    My DH is done but our 3 boys are not and that was my DH choice. He said that there is no need to, they are born like that for a reason so why change what God chose in the first place. A penis is a penis and they all work in the same way and do the same thing wether or not they are intact or not. We just chose to keep our boys intact as it just seemed to be natural. My oldest is going on 17 and has not had any problems and does not even run aorund questioing why his dont like like so and so's he just knows some men are done some arn't no big deal. Doesn't pose any questions that can't be answerred, to me that is not a reason to have it done. Religious reaosns didn't do it for me either as God made him that way so why change it, and for gygiene, nup didnt do it for me either as can one not clean themselves? And for Aids? well come on now really? Any doo doo can get it wether or not they are circum or not.


    So for us there wasn't enough good reaosn to have it done so we have 3 boys intact and my hubbie chose that even though he has been circumised himself!

  7. #25
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    I had Noah done on Thursday last week with the plastibell, it should be known that there is still cutting involved with the plastibell and there will be pain afterwards. I don't believe they feel any pain during the procedure but they most certainly do after. The crying during is most likely a result of being separated from their mother and being naked and restrained.

    I have only one regret, that I didn't get it done right after birth. I am very attached to my little man after 3 1/2 months together and seeing him in pain after the local wore off broke my heart. It isn't the prettiest sight either and I have to wait up to 10 days until it starts to look better. Juz's mum and aunts work in the nursing field, and one comment they said that cemented my choice was the amount of elderly men they had seen having to have a circ done because they were too old to clean themselves properly.

    If you have any doubts you are better to wait; but if you don't then I would get it done sooner rather than later like I did.

    Good luck!

  8. #26
    Registered User

    Feb 2007
    230

    This was something I agonised over during my first pregnancy. If I weren't Jewish I would definitely not have circumcised - even though DH is - but after much discussion I decided to do it for cultural/religious reasons. We had it done the traditional way, which is quick, but anaesthetic-free, and it was certainly traumatic for our son if only for the moment of the op (he seemed fine shortly after). However, we had problems in the following days with a burst blood vessel and it was extremely distressing. For about a year afterwards I had every doctor/nurse DS saw check that his penis was OK - they must have thought I was crazy! I'm now pregnant again and hoping for a girl so I can avoid putting a child through the whole thing again. Plastibell sounds like a good method if you're going to do it, though. Whatever decision you make, I think it's important to think it through as you're doing, and come to an agreement that you and your DH can both accept. In the grand scheme of things it's probably not the most important decision you'll ever make, but you do have to feel OK about what you do.

  9. #27
    Life Subscriber

    Jul 2006
    Brisbane
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    I agree that there is not conclusive medical evidence that it should be done. However, there are some medical experts who believe it should be, just like there are some who believe it should not. There are also statistics, which might or might not be flawed, which show lower rates of certain medical problems such as UTIs (which can be fatal in babies), penile cancer, AIDS and cervical cancer in female partners of circ'd men. At the end of the day, as I said previously, it is up to each parent to read the information available and make the right decision for them. Just like vaccination (where there is also no conclusive medical evidence, but there are statistics which are enough to convince the government to fund vaccinations), it is an individual decision, and there is no right answer for everyone.

    For me, having the boys the same as DH is not a good enough reason in itself to have the procedure done. It makes the list of pros and cons, but for us, it was medical reasons that carried more weight. However I don't think it is fair to say that it's not a good enough reason for anyone, as there will be some people for whom it is enough of a reason. And that's ok too. We are all different and so will have different ways of doing things, and different reasons for doing so.

    Also, I wonder at the figure of 90% which has been quoted as the percentage of baby boys who are not being circ'd. I have heard this figure before, but I question it. I wonder if it includes circumsions for religious reasons, as I would have thought that that would account for quite a lot of boys in itself. I also wonder if it would regionally affected - eg it seems to be more common in Brissy where there is a high profile dr doing plastibells. I don't know what year that figure is for, and what is included, it would be interesting to know. As with any statistic, I think you need to question the make up of the figure and any contributing factors.

  10. #28
    Registered User

    Sep 2006
    1,223

    Hi JoJo
    It sure is a difficult thing to decide on isn't it. Dh and I are having a little boy and we've both agreed to get him circumsised too. Dh is done as is his brother and father. We are going to do it as soon as we can. I think it idealy needs to be done before bub is 6 weeks old(info from a friend who had her son done). Also one of my nephews had to be circumsised for medical reasons at 6 years old and it was embarrasing for him as he had to miss out on playing sport for a couple of weeks and a few other things. I would hate my son to have to go through that at that age.
    I also work with kids and I would have to say that I'd disagree with the percentage rate of circumsised and uncircumsised. I would say its about 50/50 either way so don't feel like your little boy would be the odd one out in the change rooms at school or sport.
    Good luck with your decision.

  11. #29
    Registered User

    Dec 2005
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    I assume they get some of the stats from medicare? Or do Dr's have to report in when they do the procedure? I don't know. I wasn't even aware the stats were that high in favour of not having it done until I saw the 60 Minutes reports.

  12. #30
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    I think the stats come from circumcision at birth and not in the following weeks or months after birth so statistically they are misleading us, I have to agree with Mako that it is really 50/50 or at worst 60/40 majority being uncirc'ed.

  13. #31
    Jodie259 Guest

    Juz's mum and aunts work in the nursing field, and one comment they said that cemented my choice was the amount of elderly men they had seen having to have a circ done because they were too old to clean themselves properly.
    I had never thought of that situation - but it's very true. And although everyone says "it's easy to keep that area clean"... you hope that your boy maintains his cleanliness as he gets older... but you really have no control over what he does as he becomes an adult. There are some pretty skanky guys out there...

    I wonder at the figure of 90% which has been quoted as the percentage of baby boys who are not being circ'd. I have heard this figure before, but I question it. I wonder if it includes circumsions for religious reasons, as I would have thought that that would account for quite a lot of boys in itself.
    As both Jewish & Muslim boys are circumcised (for religous reasons)- I imagine that would be a large percerntage of boys. Still many people circ their boys for non-religous reasons... So I also question the 90% figure being quoted.

    I assume they get some of the stats from medicare? Or do Dr's have to report in when they do the procedure?
    My son was circ'd by a Mohel (rabbi) - so there was no contact with medicare on that one. And the Mohel didn't have to report the procedure to anyone. So at a guess - none of the Jewish circ's would be "reported" to any medical or government body. It's possibly the same for Muslims as well ? It would be interesting to see where they get the stats from... because if it is from medicare or government departments - there there is a HUGE % not being reported.

  14. #32
    Registered User

    Aug 2005
    Melbourne, Victoria
    1,635

    I never claimed through medicare, because like Jodie said, we had a mohel not a doctor do it. Although there is a few who are both in my community, we went with personal recommendations.

    And we didn't worry about it as they are properally trained, and have done so many more than doctors would have anyway, so i think there is even less likely to be problems having it done from a mohel etc.

    Dach - how is it done in Muslim circles?

  15. #33
    Life Subscriber

    Jul 2006
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    Thanks for that info. I didn't think that figure could possibly be including all circs. I suspect it might only be those done at birth. Like Mako said, the teachers I know are telling me that there are now more boys who are done than not (apparently the kids talk about what they see in the locker room LOL). Three years ago when I was first researching this a teacher told me that in the higher year levels more were not circed, but in the lower year levels it was the other way around. I think it is starting to become more popular again. It would be interesting to see accurate figures on this but I guess it would be really hard to collect the info.

  16. #34

    Mar 2004
    Sparta
    12,662

    FWIW the BellyBelly Poll indicates that about 30% of the BB members circumcise thier sons.

    We get a Dr to do it - usually a Muslim Dr. In countries that have a Muslim majority there are usually surgeons who only do circumcisions.

    I tend to think that the 90% figure might be incorrect. The Drs who did my boys both billed medicare for a consultation and I paid the balance in cash so it wouldn't have been recorded as a circumcision by medicare. Both of them do 100's of circumcisions a year and medicare wouldn't be notified of any of them.

  17. #35
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    Thanks for the link to the poll Dachlostar! I just put in my vote!

  18. #36
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    Oct 2006
    Sydney NSW
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    Another health reason for us in having our DS done was that although now hygiene is very good and boys can be taught to clean themselves when DH was in the army and "out bush" where there was no access to water for washing yourself he saw uncirced guys with really bad infections just because they had no facilities to clean themselves, a friend who was married to a submariner said her DH saw the same thing. (i realise not many of our sons may enter the defense force but just another point)

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