The concept of 'choice'

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Control to me is not about being able to determine exactly what happens (of course I can't do that), it's about being an effective agent on my own behalf.
If my wishes were respected, if I had a truly collaborative relationship with my OB in making decisions, i would feel I had control, even if things happened exactly the same way.

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This is beautifully said Marcellus and really what I'm trying to get at here... What we are talking about here is not so much trying to control the elements of birth that are out there, but how we can improve the way things are now. I think we need to feel a sense of genuine collaboration with our care providers, which is too often lacking.
I am sure that there are some wonderful Obs out there who are working together with mothers to give them a wonderful birth - I know this is true. But this was not the experience that Marcellus and I had. Even though my guy was apparently great, he was busy beyond belief, and seemed to think, probably rightly, that his involvement in my rather bland textbook pregnancy was a bit redundant. So the sense of collaboration, of being known and understood was lacking. I imagine that relationship of being known, understood and collaborating to bring a baby into the world is what homebirthers experience with their midwives.
Inanna I agree that our system does not respect the sacred nature of birth, and this is probably one reason why many of us are left feeling vaguely ripped off. And I love your Crazy Clark's analogy BTW :rofl:

Thanks Pixie. :hug: I'm feeling pretty misunderstood lately so it was nice to get some kudos.

I think the reason some obs do't get too excited about "bland pregnancies" is because they are practitioners of medicine, they are there for when there is a medical emergency not for when a woman is in her sacred space of birthing her Baby! He or she trained for 10 years to be a lifesaver not a midwife!. This is part of the problem!

The system is not set up for sacred spaces. It's set up for stainless steel autoclaved birthing kits. We were not meant to be birthing in institutions just like we weren't meant to die in them. We have to bring back the sacred into birth & this is when our needs will be met. because birth (I don't care how much I am labelled a fruit cake :nahnah: ) is just as much about a sacred initiation into motherhood (each time) as it is about the physiology of how to get the baby from the uterine sac out of the vaginal opening!

Inanna, gorgeous post, makes me soooo wish there were more babies on my horizon :D

I know that's why birth can be addictive Fleur! But we can learn so much from digesting and reflecting on our births even years later. I had an "aha" moment about my first birth just this week! 15 + years down the track! That's why birth is so magical as it becomes part of our Being, who we are & it helps form us into the Women we are. Even if we are not conscious of it. When we ARE conscious of it it is even more magical! :hug:

This is why I find it sad when there is defense about talkign about wonderful birthing experiences for fear of upsetting those who didn't have great experiences. For me my less than great births were just as powerful as my earthy births. They required more work to get through the layers, the lessons were harder at times but powerful mothering experiences none the less! None is better or worse. Just different. :hug:

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If you want to have your personal birth choices recognised you NEED continuity of care. There needs to be relationship building before, during and after birth for the best care for babies and birthing women. This does NOT happen in the public system.
I stand by my comments that birthplans should perhaps be more realistic if bothered with at all. There is little room for choice unless carers intrinsically understand the wishes of the birthing woman. A birthplan does not create intrinsic understanding of general wishes............

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I disagree with the first part. I had continuity of care in the public system with each of my pregnancies. It is rare, i grant you that, but i did have it through the public system through a know your midwife program. I had the same midwife throughout prenatal, labour and postnatal care.

I have always hated the term birth plan... so agree with the 2nd part to an extent. Birthing prefrences is a term i prefer to use. I had a better one, but can't remember it now! lol

Yes I have heard excellent things about the MGP programs in my nearby hospitals - but they just seem too few and far between. I think the 2 programs I know of have catchment areas which rules many people out before they even get out of the starting blocks. I think a lot of good things could come from these programs being more widely available.

I am a public girl through and through, The public system is not without its problems but neither is the private.
I have met angels in my two births who absolutely respected and were in awe of me, my body and what was happening.
I also met some wonderful people in the public system a couple of weeks ago when my appendix perforated.
Midwives can be great support but some are full on supporters of the medical model
Likewise some doctors (I like to include myself here) fully respect the sacredness of birth. GP shared care offers the best of both worlds sometimes if you have a doctor you trust and a great team of midwives, birth centres can be amazing, homebirth programs are great continuity but I happened to get a midwife who didn't have confidence in my my body (I did) and ended up in the back of an ambulance at 9cm for 40mins and at the mercy of many of my collegues trying to intervene on my perfectly normal wornderful birth, yelling at me, telling me I wasn't pushing properly and pressing on my belly.

There are so many sad stories and I would not ever wish to minimise people's suffering but there is no one answer, no magic bullet
We can only try and find support and a care environment where we feel safe, this will of course be different for different people.
I think the number of replies to a thread has a direct correlation to the complexity of the issue
BB is a great base of support to work through issues, disappointment and celebrate the joys.
But I don't think there are any magic answers here... or anywhere

Polly I hear you & agree. There ARE so many sad stories - sad for me is when a Woman feels that her birth was not her own that she was not heard & her body not honored & trusted.

I also totally agree (& I see in one of my posts that it may not seem so) that some midwives follow a very medical model. I had a private obstetrician in a private hospital. A woman who like myself honors Woman's bodies, the sacredness of birth & can manipulate a mean shoulder out of dystocia when required! Has a fine surgical technique that I have also been at the end of. So YES. It's about seeking out what is right for you the individual woman.

I always say our care providers need to be interviewed for the job. Your birthing of your child is one of THE most important things in your life. It is not to be handed over. It is to be understood. We as Women need to educate our peers, our daughters our daughters in law to be fully informed about what birth means. Getting the baby from the uterus to the air is one part of it but oh my there is so much much more. If we do not honor & see that we are missing a very important aspect of birth.

Polly I applaud your post as there are no magic answers. However, if we as women learn to listen to others experiences, help to support others through their absolute triumph & their absolute tragedy... We grow. We grow our hearts bigger, we learn how complex & yet how simple birthing, parenting & being a Woman is.

When we can hear each experience for the individual experience that it is for each woman without comparing. Without defense. I would be so incredibly sad that a Woman not share her story for fear of judgement. There is not a birth that is not beautiful because it's a miracle. Every birth is a miracle. It is beautiful. Because a Mother is made & a child is birthed. :hug:

Inanna you rock:

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Firstly birth is an unknown & we cannot control it. Part of the wonder of birth is that we need to "give over" our bodies, part of our Being. It's what we do when we birth. Birth is a line between life & death - a "little death" is known to describe orgasm & as such it describes birth as well. I always say death sits in the corner of each room that birth is in. By that it can be the death of the mother or child I guess - a reality. But more part of us dies - & is born. This is the letting go. It is my honest, deep & experienced belief that until a Woman can accept this in part birth will be very very difficult for that Woman. Women get "stuck". We talk about our heads giving birth before our body does. Well in part this is why. We really have to accept this handing over of part of us to a higher self, to the birthing process or whatever it might be. But it's letting go.

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This just speaks to my soul...it is EXACTLY how I felt while birthing. I felt the approach of death, feared it, felt the love and encouragement of my midwife and DH and faced it...and then she was born. AMAZING.

I think there is also not enough written about how THIS kind of intense experience traumatises some women...so that no matter how you experience birth, you still somewhat face this precipice, and many do it alone.

YES!!!!!!!!!!! Arcadia there is not enough written. Partly because many women don't even want to know about it. :sad: Partly because it's seen as some wierd type of hippy thing... :sad:

Until we do embrace this more Women will continue to have trauma & pain. We meet those Wise Women of birth when we face the precipice. We need to "see" them in the faces of our midwives/supporters. Sometimes we meet them & they tell us to turn over and be on all fours. To hang from the handles of a cupboard. To squat & dance and swivel. Sometimes they tell us that "something is not working"... Whatever it is we need to be taught it's safe to listen.

Birth is about listening. For a supporter of birth weather she be an obstetrician or a Doula. An experienced woman can know where a Woman is in her birth. She can know what might help. She can know by the way a Woman is holding her mouth or her hands. Her voice.

Women stare into the distance as transition closes in... They are inviting the little death that occurs. This is when you DO NOT speak or touch unless it's invited. It's like a trance & we Women fight it because it's so unnatural to invite the expulsion that uncontrollable thing that overtakes our bodies. It feels so "wrong". When we accept it, invite it and embrace it we have met the little death as we begin to work with our body again...

This is I believe why so many women get stuck. I have heard so many women with high pitched screams - the fear and terror. When our voices are high they are working against our body we need to be guttural. Like the cows that birth in the paddock. high voice is fear.

I am saddened over the past few days over some comments on birthing. I am a Woman who has had many different births. Even when I birthed my soft, still son the birth was beautiful. My daughters surgical birth was beautiful. There are many ways that are necessary at times to birth.

What I will one day see is a Society where Women are taught in birth classes not about the positions of labour but the sacredness of the act of birth & pregnancy. Of what the whole process is. That it is the birth of a Mother each time as much as it's the birth of a child. That it is an initiation into this. It's an absolute blessing that is awe-some in the true sense of the word. Please know that in saying that I am not belittling or undermining a woman who does not know this. In knowing one thing I don't undermine another. I feel sad that it is hard for people to hear that without comparison or hurt.

We are all birthing Goddesses. All of us. :hug:

Inanna- SO true, and beautifully said! :clap:

hitting on the point of 'little death' that inanna speaks of is, i believe an important concept. transition is not just about the cervix dialating from 8 to 10 cms. it is a transition where the conscious mind is not needed, and in fact can be the hinderance. and like inanna mentioned, that is where problems can occur for a birthing woman. At least this is how i experienced it the first time around. during this critical time of transition (and yeah i am talking from a holistic POV of the mind, body and soul itms) a woman needs , gentle guidance and the knowledge that she is protected so that her conscious mind can be put at rest (this, to me, is also a moment of 'little death'), so that her subconscious can take over and she can fully surrender to the transition of her baby and her body to bring a new life earthside. I am of course, speaking from my own personal experiences and have noted the difference that care and the right to 'choice' has had on my two birth experiences. my first transition represented fear, agony and a surrender...BUT the surrender wasnt to myself and my baby it was to the system. during transition my OB was called, the lights went up, they all got kitted out in gowns, gloves and massive goggles (true story lol). there was no reassurance for my conscious mind, in fact, quite the opposite. the system that i found myself in required my conscious mind there: to answer questions, to shift onto my back with my legs up, and importantly to PUSH. i became exhausted. my subconscious was needing to be allowed in, my physical body was tired from the struggle and transition and birth was a fight against myself, something that i had no way of knowing was going to happen until it did.

my subsequent birth and transition i can honestly say was the most beautiful moment i have yet experienced. the transition between my daughter and I birthing that day is highlighted by the silent support and guidance of my care-providers who respected and recognised when my subconscious was taking over and helped gently guide me through that process of accepting the 'little death' that was sitting in the corner. All my DH can really recall of transition is the quietness that was interspersed by gentle laughter (at my babies antics as she descended into the birth canal) and my simple declaration that 'the baby is coming'. transition this time was without fear, pain, pushing. Instead it was about welcoming my baby and gently talking to her as we achieved that moment of birth together. there is nothing so beautiful as talking sweetly to your unborn child in that moment. honest.

this then brings us back to the concept of choice and what that means in a birth space. can we achieve a transition without fear when placed in settings that are less than ideal (ie, when there is a cascade of intervention or a planned/unplanned C/S...i believe the answer is YES!). this is where (again) i agree with Inanna that we need to understand birth not only in physiological terms (i believe that this is also important...especially in understanding the phsyiology for example of labouring with a posterior baby and understanding those mechanisms, not to mention the role of the uterus in the process of birth, but i digress) but in terms of the spiritual journey that mother and baby are taking (and for me personally that each member in attendance of the sacred act of birth...which is why i feel choosing who is in your birth space is the first BIG step in owning your choices).

in terms of my personal birth plan this time around, i chose carefully from the get go. from the moment that BFP came up. i chose my carers, my support, my space and i spent the journey of pregnancy preparing as best as i could to achieve the outcome that myself and my baby and my family needed. people may laugh at the depth of of my birth 'plan' as it included all varieties of wildcards. but in the end it was a precious document that was tailored to our needs as a family and made my conscious mind feel secure and at peace: come what may. and that for me, is the important concept contained within 'choice': peace.

I just wanted to say how much I have enjoyed reading your discussion here - I so wish I had access to such material prior to having DD1. xxxxx

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I just wanted to say how much I have enjoyed reading your discussion here - I so wish I had access to such material prior to having DD1. xxxxx

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:yeahthat: I think I have learned as much from this thread as I could from reading a million books. Thanks ladies :grouphug:

Inanna, I must admit I used to cringe a bit at the idea of the goddess' spiritual birthing.... but after a lot of reflection and reading, I am getting on board now :) I have an inkling - only an inkling - of what it could be like. I want that too. Not just for me, for the babies I birth and for their babies.

Cassius - your description of transition for your first birth is (sadly) exactly what I experienced also. Can something that became so distressing, actually be wonderful? I hope so.

Thanks for your honesty Marcellus. I know a lot do cringe. :lol:

It can be wonderful. When you greet it & know it. Recognise it. I can't talk right now as there is stuff happening here. I hope that like you others get a bit more on board. Embracing the sacredness of birth truly is an awakening. :hug:

Inanna, in your posts you have spoken deeply to my soul.
I desparately wanted choice with the birthing place for my daughter and unfortunately home birth was out of the question.
I "see" things and I knew deep in my heart how spiritual the birthing process would be and how I needed to have things I felt right about. I believe that due to having my choice of place of birth taken from me my body delayed labour and I caused the death of my daughter. I tried and tried to make alternative arrangements for my daughters birth place and nothing I could do or say swayed the "system". For this reason my birth plan seemed pointless to me.
I was never afraid of birthing my child. I was afraid of birthing my child at the hospital that had treated me soooo poorly in the past on several occasions.
Choice was removed from me and deep in me I knew there would be a poor outcome. By being referred to the FMU I even had "shared care" with my GP taken away from me.
Pregnant women are considered by many to be "emotional and overly demanding" due to this label the choices they ask for are not taken seriously. Due to the fact I was teary because I "saw" a poor outcome in the birth place I was forced to use I was ignored.
If I had come across as in control, stable and unemotional perhaps I would have been listened to and my choices heard........this did not occur.
While I was in labor my room was invaded by two mental health workers. I asked for them NOT to come into the room and they did anyway. I was coming to terms with birthing a dead baby and having contractions and they did not recognise the very private spiritual journey I was taking with my daughter. Again even my choice of who should be present at this important time of our lives was not honoured by our archaic and paternalistic system.
Women DO know what is best for them. They become very in touch with their bodies when pregnant and they do know a lot about outcomes for themselves and their children. Choice about how they are treated is essential. I believe the fact choice was taklen from me was a contributing factor in the stillbirth of my precious daughter.

Oh Kateo I want to reach through this screen & just hug you so tight. :comfort:

I am hearing you & I trust that if that's what you truly believe it is your truth. :comfort:

I can't begin to imagine how it felt to not be heard & have your sacred space invaded while you were birthing your child. I can't imagine & when I try it feels so painful to me so for you it must have felt intolerable. :hug:

This is probably crossing over issues & threads. But I'll just go with what feels right for me to say... I believe even in death our babies journeyed with us through birth - you gave her the best birth you could under extra ordinary circumstances. I have absolutely no doubt that you gave her what she needed in her birth. :comfort:

Your story illustrates tragically how when we enter some institutions we become a patient rather than a client. Know that not every system. Not every midwife. Not every doctor would dis honor yourself & your child & your family so integrally.

I can only say I am so very sorry that you were dishonored so overtly.

You knew how you felt. You knew what you wanted. You weren't listened to & if you were anywhere else it would not be accepted. You are right much is written off as "hormonal". Again it can be part of the patriarchy. I share that view too at times. Though I try to be careful to acknowledge that there are many amazing care providers in systems that really do serve the Women & babies that come to them for assistance to birth their children.

I am so very very sorry Kateo. I want so much for you to have a different experience if you choose to again be pregnant. :hug: