How do u not grudge? How do u find forgiveness???:
Love MN ;-)
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How do u not grudge? How do u find forgiveness???:
Love MN ;-)
Like everything it is a choice. You can sit there right now, close your eyes, focus and put yourself in a state of anger, hate, frustration... Or grattitude, love, appreciation.... So you can choose to free yourself from the burden of a grudge too. It took me some time to learn how, but I chose to invest in me, by choosing amazing people to study, follow and participate in seminars. And I tell you, life couldnt be any better right now. I used to be a 'victim' all the time, I chose to be, I didnt know how not to be... But its truly as simple as that. Choose gratitude, so many beautiful things in your life to be grateful for. :)
I wish you all could have experienced what I have since Thursday. I even walked on fire!!!
Ok sorry for hijacking.
But.... How does that work, I can understand the thinking positive and concentrating on those positive things, this is something that I have been tying to do (but not getting very far some days) but when it comes to grudges, I don't know how to stop, I feel physically sick thinking of MIL. I can't help it I hate her actions, and it's going to sound horribly mean I hate who she is as a person for everything she did and didn't too.
Love MN ;-)
I understand what you mean and believe me it took me a while to get this, when I got it I kinda felt like a fool because I realized I was judging myself in away. What I realized first is when I thought "thats wrong", judging that person, the big "aha" moment was when I discovered that first of all that it was not true, it was only my opinion, thats it! And even my opinion was not even true, it was just me creating this illusion that what that person did is wrong and often we from that we create a story in our mind and get very attached to that story. There was a part of me that would not want to accept what I've come to realize (I was very attached to my story lol), but the more I thought about it the clearer it became obvious to me that when I judged someone, anyone, I'm only judging them according to my values and believes. We all have our own unique view of life and to judge someone saying "thats wrong" is like saying "your view of life is wrong" because it doesnt match our own values/believes etc. So accepting that, to me, was very powerful, relieving and made my life a lot more peaceful.:
I see what you are saying...
It is almost as if there is a part of me that doesn't want to move on. Does that make sense? I know the truth in what you say, but in that moment when I am angry, I don't care. I don't want to accept anyone else's view of life, I don't want to see how they might be that way, I don't want to understand. It is a very base kind of mentality that rears up.... and there is a prt of my mind that realises how base it is, and that I know better, but there is also a part of me that just doesn't care - I want to stay in the anger.
I just keep forcing myself up & over it & think that eventually with time my thought processes will change, I guess, but I'd like to understand what it is that makes staying in that down & dirty anger, so attractive....
ETA - it's almost as if sometimes it would be too easy to forgive & move on. Like I want to be angry for a bit longer first? why would I want to be like that? It's not a state that comes naturally to me, my inclination is more to empathise (and often because I can empathise, I can forgive more easily) but there is a part of me that fights against it...
sorry, didn't mean to hog the thread :/
I understand what you're saying here Colin and I do agree to a point. The stories we tell ourselves are amazingly powerful. I think this is very true in lots of circumstances but the times when people are most likely to hold grudges are the times when they feel harmed by another's behaviour. When a person actively puts another person at risk (physically, emotionally, whatever), then community standards would say "thats wrong". It's all kind of on the same continuum for me. Minor insults from another person or being snubbed etc are usually seen as being 'wrong'. I can see the value in changing my perception of that person to let go of the hurt. If I change my expectations of them (i.e. that they'll be polite) then I won't feel any grudge towards them. But what about if they rob me a knife point? Kidnap my child? Murder a family member? I'm going to have a grudge and it's going to be very hard to convince me that it's just my values or beliefs that create the grudge/ill feeling. I think there are some general, basic standards of behaviour that we all expect from others. And that will lead to grudges if those standards are not met. And I know victims of crime can forgive their perpetrators, but that is a process that can take a long time and a lot of hard work. The grudge is there initially.:
Tony Robbins talks about 6 human needs - will post more about it later (getting sick of iphone typing!). when we are out of balance with an issue like this, we're operating out of one of those needs too much. It fills a need in us and until we realise it and change it, we'll always be stuck there and not grow.
The six needs are 4 main essential ones and two ideal ones for real growth:
Certainty
Uncertainty/Variety
Significance
Connection/Love
Growth
Contribution
Maybe Colin can give a second opinion, he's been doing this much longer than me, but I think this situation fuels your need for certainty. I'll explain it more tomorrow but basically we all need certainty, but at a high level it can be destructive.
What does your anger give you Fleur? I think it must be giving you something positive in the short term to want to hold onto it.:
For me, when I am angry with others and holding onto it, my anger gives me a sense of (false) energy about the situation (especially if there isn't actually anything I can do to change it) and it keeps me feeling like I am in the right, I am ok. It's kind of self affirming in a way. Anger is usually a cover-up emotion for something else. It is the great pretender and hides a multitude of other feelings, like an iceberg, most of it is submerged underneath.
A criminal is a perfect example of someone who has a lack of human needs being fulfilled or operating at high levels of needs, so you can begin ti see how powerful this is:
imagine someone holding another at knifepoint. He has met a need for significance, clearly, someone holding a knife at my throat would be pretty significant in my life at that moment. Uncertainty/variety, as who knows whats going to happen next. Blood adrenaline pumping away, the rush. Connection with another human, one on one, even though its not possitive connection. Certainty fits in there as well.
When you seek to meet all those needs (I think Robbins says 3 or more) at high levels its highly destructive.
We all have needs to be met, its natural, a criminal no example, they just dont have the tools to help them, so they resort to desperate measures. We all have one in that list that is most important to us. But it can get out of control and result in dramas.
Fear also stops us from moving forward, taking action, being our best. But in order for things to change for you, you must change.
Fleur, I see what you are saying and I will post more about this tomorrow, Im super tired and just about to fall asleep lol. Good night everyone, sweet dreams :-)
Btw, awesome thread! :)
For me, I reckon the person I would grudge against is hurting themselves enough without me helping. In fact, me holding a grudge against them allows them to say "I was wrong, but look how bad she is being to me" - painting me as the villain.
I am not a nice, selfless, happy person. I have planned my panoramic lounge on my volcanic island base, how to cross-breed sharks with turtles (just want to see people swim to the edge of the pool and the shark get out too...), how to threaten world governments... I am basically a supervillain. Whose minions all have photo ID and helmets that show the face. And believe me, niceness kills people who I would normally grudge against. Realised that years ago. (I think the Bible puts it as "heaping hot coals on your enemy's head" which I like.)
Having said all that, I cannot forgive my mother over some things. They hurt, even when I try to "get over" them. I don't know what to do about it, save just know in my heart that I'm better than the people she loves more than me. Don't I just love being the better person (!). But then again, she's unrepentant about these things. If she were at all ever sorry for hurting me, I could forgive her and move on. She doesn't see a problem when I highlight it for her, and keeps doing what I request she stops doing. I figure it must be hurting her that she doesn't even know where I work, because I cannot trust her enough to tell her even that. She is hurting herself by being untrustworthy and mean. And I am relaxed because here is part of my life she cannot try to walk into and throw into chaos.
It's another perspective. If you want to hold a grudge well, let it go. See the other person sweat even more. Works for me!
I struggled with this as well. I spent years being upset and hurt over her (and his families) actions but in the end I just had to let it go, they are who they are, they will always be that way and never be the grandparents I want them to be. I don't like her but I don't give her enough thought to hate her.:
I remove my kids from situations where they can be hurt by them, I don't hold a grudge but I don't play happy families because they do not deserve that from myself or my children.
MummaNurse - I don't think that it is about forgetting everything that has ever happened to you and living in a land of sunshine and lollipops :) I think it is about not putting your energy into trying to get revenge or finding a way to hurt the other person or punish them ... if that makes sense. It wouldn't be right to keep putting yourself in a position where you can be continually hurt, all the name of not holding a grudge - you have have to have self respect as well which means not letting people walk all over you or treat you in a way that you find unacceptable.
It is a choice to put your energy into appreciating what you do have and focussing on that. I have huge issues with my PIL - who would not treat us with any level of respect no matter how much we asked them to. We put our energy into letting them know how we felt for a while - in a very respectful way, we didn't play their games. There is nothing wrong with feeling how you feel either. It is okay to be upset/hurt/angry etc and acknowledge how you feel. Nothing is every going to be solved by pretending that you don't feel that way. I think it is about expressing those feelings in a way that is appropriate though. We could have tried to 'get back' at my PIL for being so rude or even outrightly mean, but the only people that would have hurt in the end was us. There was no point.
Life isn't without pain. No amount of positive thinking will change that fact, but it is how we handle the pain that will make a difference to ourselves. My PIL will never realise how they have hurt us and I have gotten to a point where I don't care if they do or they don't realise. They are so busy being victims at the moment and that is their choice. I can't change them, I can't make them feel a certain way. All I can do is express to them how I feel, tell them what I want them to do differently and leave it with them to make the choice. They chose to be victims and never change. It is not a healthy relationship for us or for our children so we have walked away. I am not punishing them or trying to get revenge - it is simply that the relationship is so one sided and we are always losing. We needed to free ourselves from it - the decision was completely about us and what is good for our family and really nothing to do with them at all.
We just focus on making our lives as great as they can be and focus on appreciating what we have. We don't put time or energy into relationships where we aren't respected. Nothing to do with the people who aren't showing us respect and everything to do with us having the freedom to enjoy life.
We make our choices with what is best for us in mind and not because we are driven by hurting other people (which is holding a grudge). Hope that makes sense :)
Great thread Onyx. I don't think holding a grudge so to speak is really that healthy. I think what's more important is for people to learn how to to honor themselves. If someone genuienly does something which is disrespectful or hurtful to you and isn't sorry or put in place steps to make sure it doesn't happen again or if someone is just a repeat offender why do so many people choose to keep those people who make them feel like crap in their lives? It really is OK for those people to behave like that, that's obviously just where they are at. You do get to choose however who you share your life with, family, friends or otherwise. Even if they are to stay in your life due to necesatiy you can certainly limit contact with them without it eating you up inside that that person has wronged you in some way. I have a great ability to not be angry but to really let go of it and let go of the person to whatever extent is necessary. Some may look at this as running away from the problem but I don't. If I was burning mad inside then yes culling anyone from you life that upsets you is not dealing with things. I tend to more just honor what path others are on and most importantly honor what works for me and what doesn't. An example of this is that I haven't spoken to my brother in a couple of years now. We were VERY close growing up and for much of our adult life. I tried to gently help him with his personal growth whenever 'he' asked for it. An incident happened where he made up the wrong thing, we didn't have an all out argument, in fact one sentence was said by him and as a result I have cut him loose to live, grow and learn without effecting my life. That is not a grudge at all as I hold no anger over any of it and I'm pretty sure he doesn't either even though 'he' was p!ssed off at the time. One day when he has moved forward I will still be here as I still think he is worthy of my time and love. Other people who do things that are wrong or hurtful I can still forgive and not hold a grudge but I will still distance them from my life if they have shown themselves to be someone I don't want to spend my time with.
When something is fuelling our need, we will defend it fiercely, and even get upset at anyone who thinks differently or tries to mess with it.
We're in a society where we focus too much on our pain in doing/changing something, when we should be realising the (long term) pain of NOT doing anything. Look at how it makes you feel. Think of all the other people around you that you could possibly be hurting/changing their experience because of this. Look at how quickly you can make yourself angry and bitter if you think about it or focus on it. Now imagine a life where you never ever feel that ever again... If you can't, you're addicted to your pain/meeting your need.
I'm like you Onyx, can't hold a grudge, I honestly couldn't be bothered - it takes too much energy. At the same though, I don't really let things go as is per se but nut it out until it is sorted - you know the whole don't go to bed still angry.
I am, or was, a big grudge holder. I was still hanging on the anger about being bullied in high school. Which was years and years ago.
However I recently went to an information session for a kind of "course" I'm planning on going to at the end of the month (It's called Healing Your Life through the Quest For Life Foundation). The lady who was running the session said something about feeling anger towards another person is like drinking a cup of poison and expecting them to get sick from it. They aren't usually affected too much by how you feel, but It's eating away at you the longer you hold on to it. And that if you forgive them, It's not so much for the other person's sake, as much as it is to make you feel better.
That really stuck with me. I've had some issues with my sister where I was really upset with her over a lot of things, but I never told her because I didn't want to upset her. I just kept holding on to anger and I felt like I was going to explode (lucky she lives in the UK now haha). But now I know that It's not my place to be angry at her. I really do love her, I just had held on to the way I felt when she said certain things to me, and couldn't let go of that. But now I have some how managed to forgive her, even if she has no idea! I have also been doing other things to boost my self esteem so that I don't let other peoples opinions get to me and then I won't let myself get so hurt and angry about so much stuff.
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I wouldn't really call it a grudge per se, but I refuse to ever forgive what my father has done. I no longer have any contact with him and believe that the best revenge is to live well and enjoy life.
In everyday life I have made a commitment to deal with issues as they arise assertively rather than bottling everything up. I slip sometimes, some days I have my rant and rave a bit then move on. Holding on to all that emotion is way too stressful and really doesn't help either you or anyone around you.
Isnt refusing to forgive, a grudge? Even the word revenge; its such a negative energy isn't it? When you think about revenging someone, it doesnt bring you peace or love, it winds you up and makes you feel angry.
In the past it was who we were. Now, we are a result of choices and decisions we made in the past. Who we were is not who we are. We're just living in to outcome of that - the food we ate, the jobs we chose, the grudges we held...
I held some grudges for a long time, until I realised those people I was angry/unhappy with did the best/all they could at the time based on their own state and tools they had. We cant change or undo that, neither can they. We've all done or said crappy things then worried it made us look like a worse person than we really are.
Im totally at peace with my past, and it feels awesome. If anyone is struggling with those things, try and get yourself along to Anthony Robbins seminars (I just did Unleash the Power Within) or his relationship/life DVDs or Byron Katie's or Abraham Hicks' work. If you can get the original copy of The Secret (with Esther Hick - love Abraham Hicks) thats great too. Living with such peace and acceptance of what is, is blissful. Choosing to invest in me and my happiness by following and studying these people was the best thing I ever did, and have grown soooo much as a result.
I can only hold a grudge if someone has given me a seriously big reason to basically hate them. I don't hate many people, and most of the people I hate are the obvious, war criminals and alike. I have a huge grudge against my old boss from Anaconda, because if she had've been doing her job properly, the last 13months of my life wouldn't have been the daily struggle they have been. I wouldn't have been prescribed medication to deal with stress, and I wouldn't be unemployed.
She cut my hours to 0 or would constantly roster me on days that EVERYBODY knew I couldn't work because it was on the availability sheet in the break room. Then when I'd remind her she would simply remove the shift and not give me any others to replace it. After a while I'd just not go to uni, or whatever else I had on because I needed the money so badly. The other staff felt so bad for me they would give me their hours. Whats more is nobody even knows why, to this day. She has done it to a few people now, about 8 of us, and the only thing the other staff can come up with is that she simply didn't like us. If thats the case, I'm sorry but be and adult and speak to me about it. I used to go out of my way for her, and for my customers, I'd stay back after work and not claim it on my time sheet, I'd drive to other stores to get items customers needed urgently - on my own time and once even on Boxing day of all days! - and never ask for anything in return accept gratitude from the customer, which I always got. I was a damn good employee, no complaints against me, the state manager even came across me in the store one day and told me how impressed he was with how neat and orderly my section was, and how well I was dealing with my customers. She cut my hours until it had been 2 months since I'd last worked. My name wasn't even on the roster anymore. I tried to ask her about it and she avoided me multiple times. When I finally did catch her, she was like "Do you even work here anymore? I thought I made my point clear when I removed you from the roster." That was news to me - I'd been fired and nobody even bothered to tell me. Since then I've had trouble finding a job anywhere. If she hadn't have done that, if she had've talked to me, or just put up with our apparent personal differences, I could have simply transferred to the Townsville store when we moved, and my life wouldn't be the constant struggle it is now. DH and I wouldn't have had to go some nights without dinner, or forgo going to the doctor, or be stuck in the house because we can't afford to put petrol in the car. I'm coming close to thinking she seriously ruined my working life and for what? I don't even know, she wont even speak to me about it.
That's the only grudge I have and I think its justified, I think some grudges are. If she would just help me understand it though, give me some closure - and stop saying bad things about me to other Anaconda employees (or so I've heard) - I know I could let it go. If I had the money I would take her to court, but because of her crippling my income, I can't do that, but whats more I shouldn't have to. I guess some grudges are justified, but the people who follow the guy home who cut them off 2 streets ago, or hate someone because back in year 8 they "stole" some boy from you, thats just silly. If its something that has drastically altered the course of your life, if you were bullied to the point you developed a mental illness for example, I could understand a grudge like that, but even then all one really needs to get over it is closure.
For me, refusal to forgive someone is not the same thing as holding a grudge. Holding a grudge entails expending the effort to do something about it, holding onto the poison and anger rather than moving on with life. Refusing to forgive however, is to me saying that what he did will never be ok. That he has forfeited his right to have a relationship with me or to play any part in my life.
My father abused me as a child for a number of years, sexually and emotionally. For years I was made to feel stupid, bad, hopeless and worthless. Like it was my fault, or that I asked for it. So for me to say that my revenge is to live well it is more saying I am not going to internalise those messages, I am not going to believe that I am those things. I am going to prove to myself that I am worth something, that I am a good person and deserve to be happy.
I don't believe that anger is necessarily a negative emotion. Poisonous, destructive anger is, but there is also positive anger. Being angry about something and taking definite action to right something that is wrong can be a very positive thing. It can bring massive but necessary change. Finally being able to feel anger at what had happened for me led to being able to finally lay the blame where it belonged, instead of blaming myself and everyone else around me. It led to my saying no, I am not going to sit by and allow him to do this to anyone else.
And now that the criminal case is done with and finished, I can let go of that intense anger. But not forgive.
For me, it depends on the situation.. and sometimes the person. Like if DH and i have a disagreement, then its forgotten in a second. But someone else.. depends on the situation.. for instance.. my mother.. ive had a few problems with her in the past and gave so many chances.. and the last instance was the last straw kinda thing.. i just cant get past being treated the way shes treated me, even though shes been sucking up my butt since i said something about it. If someone i thought was a friend has said stuff about me behind my back and i find out.. then i think its more of a trust issue. I think im a pretty fair person and give a people a lot of chances... i just think that those people who once did you wrong, will continue to do it if you try to forgive them as theyll know theyve gotten away with it the first time iywkim..
ShootingStar - I know what you mean about mothers. I have many issues with my mother and I give her chance after chance after chance! I know I should be able to trust my mother and I think thats why I keep giving her chances, but by the same token I find myself becoming harder and harder on her because she is yet to show me that she deserves those chances - and at her age she should just plain know better. I think when its someone in your family that you have a grudge against it can be a deeper grudge because the hurt is probably deeper than it would have been if it was just someone you could cut loose - your family is your family and you're stuck with them as well as the constant reminder of how they hurt you if you catch my drift. Which is why you give them more chances than you would others because you have to live with them constantly being in your life. I think forgiveness comes a lot easier when its family but if there is a grudge or resentment for whatever reason, its often much more severe.
PS - congrats on your new little bundle! :D
I love this clip about mothers:
YouTube - Byron Katie - My mother is selfish and controlling 1/2
YouTube - Byron Katie - My mother is selfish and controlling 2/2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5vw2mtD-wo - My Mother Doesn't Listen
The one on her DVD is even more powerful and amazing.
Something I learnt, through a very painful journey, was to release things.
I have, in the past, written down what the issues were, like you've written a letter to the person, but instead of sending/giving it to them, I've burnt the letter and then thrown the ashes into the wind, so they blow away from me, as I did that I visualised releasing those issues with the ashes.