Oh, the pigeon pair thing!! Don't even get me started on THAT!! :duh:
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Oh, the pigeon pair thing!! Don't even get me started on THAT!! :duh:
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Because I don't? Are we arguing over semantics? I don't like labels. For fun maybe, but generally no. I see someone who most people would label as Transgender, maybe even they themselves identify that way, I see them as Him or Her depending on what sex they see themselves. Why exactly does it matter? I thought I asked a pretty genuine question, that being, if a child doesn't live up to the stereotype their sexual organs suggest, would one still feel the same about bothering with gender selection?:
That's Transgender. Not something anyone has any control over, as there is no control over personality, sexual preference, fertility or whatever. The child comes as they are, to be raised to be the best person they can be.:
I've always wanted a daughter. I couldnt imagine life without one. But life happens anyway. I never imagined 2 dead sons either.
I suppose the case that truly distressed me was the family asking to be able to do IVF for a girl. I think it went to court. They had 2 healthy sons. Their daughter was stillborn. They tried again and conceived healthy boy twins, who they aborted because they wanted a girl.
I can see the argument in favour of IVF sex selection to prevent the termination of babies of an unwanted sex. I'm not going to debate the pros and cons of abortion here at all. Maybe they should be allowed to sex select for a girl. IMO, they need to mourn the baby girl they lost, cherish the children they have alive and learn to live with their grief. Just because we want something, it doesnt mean we're entitled to it, however much the lack hurts us.
I know what the differences are. I have a few Trans friends. As kids, we thought they were tomboys. So did they before they realised they weren't girls. Yikes. Am I making no sense? Maybe not. Any who, pretty OT from the OP. does the head meet wall guy still exist? ;) :wall:
I could never imagine having anything other than boys. Both times I thought I was having boys. Everyone else thought I was having boys.
I have two girls.
Now I can't imagine having anything other than girls.
I do think that we have a certain idea of what our "son" or "daughter" might be like. I imagined my boys to be cheeky, smart yet sensitive and kind to their mother. DD1 is exactly that personality yet in a girl's body :). She climbs trees taller than the house, describes things as being "nice and dirty", tells off boys twice her age and winds down the car window to yell hello to people as we're driving around town.
Tonight the bedtime stories of choice were The Titanic Story (for DD1) and Railroader Magazine (for DD2).
If I'd had a certain image in my head of what I thought my girls would be like, I think DD1 at least would have turned that on its head.
To answer the question rather than waffling about my children ... I can't imagine wanting a particular sex sooooooo much that I would be prepared to discard embryos of another sex but I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say that it shouldn't be allowed. Dunno.
Sorry PZ, I was slow in my response. I hadnt read the other posts about gender definitions before I hit submit. Irrespective, I think you asked a relevant question, which is why I labeled this thread the ethics of sex selection. You may choose an embryo with an XY blend and get a female in a male body.
You cannot select for gender. You can select for sex. Beyond a medical reason, such as haemophilia, is it ethical to do so?
Yes! Thank you L&B for wording my question in a hopefully understandable way, perfect :) You can choose the sex, but you can't choose the gender. What happens if you go through all of that and still have the wrong gender?
This is such a touchy subject and one that people who suffer gender disappointment struggle to tell the world.
I personally could not go through with this as I don't agree with it but I could never judge anyone who wanted to do it.
I have shared my story in the platinum section before but after having my second son I fel in love withhim but. Also mourned the daughter I didn't have. I still struggle with it when someone has a girl or says they want a boy and get a girl.
Before it happened to me I never understood how you could feel like this but when It happened it sucked and I fell into a depression. Yes I hope mynextbaby is a girl buti am ok if it's a boy hopefully.
Pof you want to spend the money go for it, you will never get judgement from me :-)
I think I struggle more with the concept of sex selection when a family already has children of one sex and wants the other. Probably because it feels a bit much like they have an image of an ideal girl/boy that they then, subconsciously, put a lot of pressure on to be that child they dreamt of. Sometimes it will work but when it doesn't, I dunno it just feels like to much work for the child.
However I do know of a woman who feared having a boy so much that she almost terminated her pregnancy just in case it was a male child. At 20 weeks she found out the gender and when it was a boy she dealt with it so badly that she was medicated and in severe emotional distress. When her child was born she eventually fell in love with him, but in her case would it have been better to avoid the risk and sex select? What if she had never bonded and that child had grown up loved only by his father? What if she had aborted, would it have been better then if IVF had guaranteed her a girl for her mental health?
I guess there are too many what if's in this situation for me to really know what I feel.
I think this is a great ethical discussion, and I really see gender selection as an extreme case of our ability to control fertility.
IVF has the ability to help people control their own fertility in a revolutionary way, and it creates more embryos than are ever used, and helps people conceive babies they would never have conceived otherwise. Its all part of the same continuum for me, and if people can choose to create embyos and only use some and implant others who gets to control that decision? Because somewhere along the line, someone is deciding which embryo to implant: the specialists can look at development, health and chromosomes and ultimately someone is making that call...why not the parents?
People have tried to control their fertility for a long time, and I know lots of people who have tried natural gender swaying...not that they would abort the other sex, but its a strong preference, so they try all the tricks.
We as a society cannot control other people's fertility. We cannot tell those on the poverty line to stop having children, or those under educated, or even those with enormous families to stop having children (even if it would be a detriment to the other children...and their ability to have a holiday or piano lessons etc). China has tried very hard to control fertility and it has lead to some terrible examples of infanticide, surrogacy and neglect.
Children are something that is personal to that couple and that family, and I don't think we can dictate how people either consume IVF, or practice gender selection naturally.
On the ethics of whether one gender should be more valued than the other, I also think that is personal and people have very complex reasons for wanting children of a particular sex. I think it would benefit those people to have counselling to address those issues, but i also think they have a right to access the same fertility options as anyone else. A healthy baby is obviously the ultimate, but if you could decide to have a particular sex, then why not?
Kids crying, so hope that all made sense...
It's an interesting read. Currently PG, I don't mind either way right now, as long as I am able to carry a baby to full term, would be great.
As for the genders, a friend has one of each. DD first, DS second. DS is far more sensitive and placid than DD. Mum often comments and says yes I got one of both but the other way around ITMS. DD is energetic, loves reptiles, mud and riding her bike. DS loves kittens, playing on his scooter outside but hates getting dirty or falling off.
You never know what you're going to get!! Even when you get it.
Dear Friend, is more fearful for DD, as being a girl she will require more grooming as she grows, ie appropriate behavior, dressing and general protection skills (she is tall pretty faced blonde blue eyes) As for DS his appearance as he grows will help protect him (he's a solid stocky kid)
As far a selection, personally I agree with it for a medical reason.
But also in a modern world, Australia for one, is growing up with new cultures that have a reason for there belief systems, but being in Australia, allows the notion of weaker sexes to change for their cultures. Some cultures, if no restriction to the number of children, they have a preference for which sex comes first. A boy would help the family by working and providing, a girl by cooking, sewing and looking after the parents.
And in other culture, the notion of having a girl is changing dramatically, so much so it's feared in that country there will be a shift in the future leading to problems later.
I guess I'm trying to say is being that Australia is growing and changing, it will adapt.
I am quite undecided about this. I think there have been a few threads where I have touched on my own inability to quite reconcile the use of ART at all, let alone to gender select.
I am curious as to how those opposed to gender selection with IVF based on the "nature/natural meant to be"-type arguments reconcile the use of IVF AT ALL if that is the thinking. Why is ok to manipulate the natural process to GET pregnant but not to CHOOSE gender?
I honestly don't understand that. Surely if we were to leave everything up as nature intended, then IVF and ART avenues are closed off. Surely it follows logically on the same argument that if you were *intended* to be able to reproduce, you would infact, be capable of doing it and therefore have no need for IVF in the first place.
Like I said, I am undecided about this and the whole IVF thing itself, and I have said it before quite openly, because I am a bit more of a "as nature decides" kind of mindset and *I* myself have trouble reconciling the two...so these are genuine questions, as to what rationale one uses to have both the natural process argument AND accepts IVF use at all. DTMS?
In my personal experience and mine only. We wanted a child, we wanted a little human to guide and teach about the world, to see what a child made with our DNA created. We couldnt get pregnant we went to IVF. It didnt work! No matter how much we tried (11 goes and no BFP), our baby just wasnt going to be. If you are already 'fertile' then I guess the reality is that IVF is going to be more 'likely' to work for you than someone who cant get pregnant no matter how much they try. So in a way if you are willing to keep paying the funds out you WILL get that specific gendered child kwim? Where as someone struggling to concieve may NEVER get a child fullstop. Its kinda 'more' guaranteed so imo playing with fate more......this just isnt coming out!!! Does that make sense?? I guess having been on the side of the coin of aching to carry a child, no gender preferred, no care of hair colour, eye colour, as long as its part me and part DH it didnt matter I feel that IVF specifically was designed to assist couples to achieve that not to pick and choose so to speak. I can understand the want of couples wanting one or the other, I really can. I mean it must be incredibly great to even contemplate IVF, because the pain and heartbreak of that is more than anything I have ever experienced (i have miscarried but never lost a child ive held in my arms either). I kept going back because I was determined to get that baby, is that something others will do to get their prefered gender....because it does become an absolute complulsion to get that baby. As has been mention disposal of the other embryos is a whole other ball game but something that doesnt sit well with me either.:
Please dont shoot me down to much :hide:
One thing that hasnt been touched on is that if it's open slather on gender selection we will inevitably end up with a population that is not balanced in terms of sex. This causes lots of problems.
It's in Wikipedia so it must be true.... ;)
:
In addition to the ethical concerns mentioned, issues of demographics arise in societies where social sex selection is common. A society may exhibit a widespread bias towards having children of a specific gender, either due to cultural biases or economic concerns (e.g. male children may be more employable in the future and thus provide more financial support). When combined with frequent social sex selection, this bias may produce a gender imbalance that has undesirable consequences. This phenomenon has been observed in many nations in the Far East, such as India and China, where social sex selection has produced unnaturally high male/female ratios in the population. China's gender imbalance is further increased by the One Child Policy, although applicable only in most urban populations. In these nations, a lack of opportunity for many men to marry is believed to be producing increases in crime, demand for prostitution, mass emigration, and the selling of brides.[23][24]
Major demographic changes have occurred in China because of sex selection. Chinese government reports show that the sex ratio for newborns is 118:100 (boys:girls), higher in rural areas such as Guangdong and Hainan (130:100) compared to the average of 104:100 in developed countries. It is believed that the ratio would increase further to the point that, by 2020, men of marriageable age would be unable to find mates, resulting in large social problems.[25][26]
Some nations, such as India, have attempted to curtail these gender imbalances with criminal statutes.[27] In contrast, bioethicist Jacob Appel of New York University has argued that governments should pay couples to choose to have female children.[27] According to Professor Appel, "if female babies [were] worth their weight in rupees and yuan, economic and educational opportunities for girls would soon follow."[27]
In contrast, actual experience in Western cultures provides no evidence for any degree of gender imbalance from technologies which have long been available and legal - such as selective abortion or preimplantation embryo testing. When used for family balancing indications in such countries as the United States, pre-conceptual sex selection is widely sought without any preferential selection of males. Thus the right of individual families to determine whether or not to balance gender of offspring in their families is not and will not become, in many countries, a demographic issue. Furthermore, in countries where such demographic issues exist because of strong gender preferences in a segment of the population, regulatory and legal control of, without denial of access to, sperm sorting technology can be utilized to provide individuals
with choices while ensuring that equal numbers of boys and girls are produced for population demographic equality.
Although problems such as rising crime rates may be associated with high male-female ratios (more males than females), it is not clear that such problems would arise in connection with low male-female ratios (fewer males than females). In addition, cultural practices such as polyamory and polyandry may reduce or eliminate potential problems. Also incentives for emigration of young singles out of gender imbalanced nations into more gender balanced nations, has often been seen as another solution to reduce potential social problems.
I dont think that a gender imbalance would occur N2L, not in most western societies but its definitely something that could be an issue. I think its hard to separate those genuine people who wish to balance our their families with BOTH gender children from those who might have socially or morally unacceptable reasons for gender preference (not inclusive of genetic or mental health issues!). There would have to be stringent guidelines for non-genetic gender selection for it to even be remotely acceptable; and rightly so. I dont think there is a strong sway to one gender preference here in Australia; for every person I meet who, like myself after several boys, would like a girl there is another I meet who would like a boy after several girls. It seems more common to have both genders, esp so if you have several children. I don't think anyone truly believes they would get all one gender; and then when it happens its quite a shock.
For someone like myself, who may very well end up going down the ART road to have our last baby; would it be harmful for us to request only female embryo's put back in? If we are there in the moment, why not? What if there are only male embryo's - well we would use them. What if there were embryo's left that were male? I know my DH would want to discard them irrespective of gender, Im not sure what I would do irrespective of gender.
How would I feel if a daughter I chose specifically for gender decided she identified with being a male more? I would be fine with it, just as I would be fine if one of my boys identified as female, or was homosexual. These things are out of our control no matter the circumstances. I think thats something to think about when having children in general. I am certain no daughter of mine would be 100% girly girl with 3 older brothers anyway :lol:
Gender balancing doesn't just affect adults too. Ds1 is nearly 6 and thinks it is unfair that he does not have both brothers and sisters. He is adamant that we must have a girl next because he wants a sister; he already has his precious brothers. Everyone else (in a 6yo eyes) has one of each, why not us? I find it hard to deal with because I agree with him, why cant we have both boys and girls?
We would love a daughter the experience of both genders and differences.
Of course not having extra money to spend we can't go down the ivf route (mortgage bills etc) I would love a lil tomboy I'm not the most girliest we all into cars heavy metal I'm on my way being covered in tattoos!
But what is hard is explaining to my ds1 that chances are he'll never have a sister. He regularly askes for a sister I just recently mc and he started up saying when can I see my baby sister in hospital, and will baby sister come out of mummy's tummy too?
Then last week we explained we as a family will go for a weekend holiday soon he said and baby sister too? I explained he doesn't have a sister ad he replied he wanted mummy to have a baby sister in mummy's tummy!
And now last night he was whimpering in his sleeping saying he wanted his sister!
You can't say to a 4yr old no you most likely never have a lil sister, instead all I know what to say is maybe oneday.
How much that breaks my heart. From this point of view it not just parents who what each gender/sex in their family but siblings too. I grew up with 3 other sisters and when my brother came, we were estatic (my mum also suffered many mc's too including twin boys at 20weeks)
I do not think its wrong for families wanting to balance and specially the genetic side of things everyone wants a healthy baby in the end. Me or my boys wouldn't be here if technology and people didn't evolve.
Do you think he might have picked that up from you? Neither of my boys have ever expressed any desire for a sister. DS1 went though a clucky phase but he just wanted a baby he wasn't fussy about gender.:
For me personally, it's the fact that embryos are created until you get the gender you want - what happens to the remaining embryos? I know in IVF that can happen too, to some degree you may end up with fertilised eggs that are unused- but that's a different thread! For me it's quite different to have 'left over' embryos to having left over ones because they are the wrong sex.:
Why is ok to manipulate the natural process to GET pregnant but not to CHOOSE gender
"to some degree you may end up with fertilised eggs that are unused":
I know in IVF that can happen too, to some degree you may end up with fertilised eggs that are unused- but that's a different thread!
Are there different degrees of unused eggs?
Is it OK to tell someone who is medically infertile that its OK to destroy the embryos they don't want because they are only "fertilised to some degree" (so as not upset them I imagine), but not OK to tell someone they can destroy them based on gender alone? There is a bit of political correctness at play on this forum.
My boys asked if they can have a sister after their first female cousin was born. They have all played very well with little girls at kinder so I'm guessing that it came from their experiences there too. I never said that I would have liked a little girl out loud. Ever. The same can't be said for nosy old loud mouth biddies at the supermarket though :wall::
That distressed a lot of people regardless of what side of the fence they are sitting on I imagine :( What about the selective reduction story on 60 mins a few weeks ago? Is wanting a specific gender actually worse than just wanting one and killing any extras?:
I am on the side of allowing it to be available. I really don't see it as being achievable for the great majority of the population of Australia anyhow due to cost. Also the desire of more balanced families seems to be the way over here, so I don't believe it will cause a great gender imbalance either. In the countries that it could cause a gender imbalance...well they murder their baby girls at birth anyway so it won't change anything. I actually would prefer for embryos to be discarded at fertilisation than to think about a screaming newborn baby being thrown in a bucket of water.
What I meant was 'to some degree' as in, in some cases or at times, there will be unused eggs. Not all IVF cases will have lots of fertilised eggs - they may only have a few that are used during transfer, others may have several left over....like I said, that's a different thread.:
"to some degree you may end up with fertilised eggs that are unused"
Are there different degrees of unused eggs?
I didn't mean that they are fertilised to some degree at all - sorry if that was unclear.
And I am sorry, but that is a extremely distasteful example to use.:
I actually would prefer for embryos to be discarded at fertilisation than to think about a screaming newborn baby being thrown in a bucket of water.
Would you be comfortable with sperm sorting (sorting x sperm from Y sperm) and then only using the selected sex sperm to fertilise the egg?:
No I dont think he has picked it up from me. Ive never let on to them that I would love a daughter, but as Raven said I cant say the same for nosy rude people who constantly hound us as to wanting a daughter or trying for a daughter. He has had quite a few friends of late have baby sisters, and we are only one of two families he has contact with that has only one gender; everyone we know and associate with have both boys and girls. He feels having another brother would be greedy, he already has two, in his mind let someone else who doesnt have one have it and we can have a sister. Simplistic thinking from the mind of a child. He's wanted a sister since his youngest brother was born.
ETA: HotI, I was under the impression that sperm sorting was one way to determine gender (or try to atleast)..................is it not an option at present? Id rather opt for sperm sorting than PGD if I were taking the ART route to gender select.
OK I get what you mean, but if there is still unwanted embryos left over then the two situations are similar. We're discussing destroying unwanted embryos here so why does it matter the reasons they were created. If it's unethical to discard 5 embryos because they aren't the desired gender, then why is it OK to discard 5 embryos because someone might not want more than one child?
Thanks to everyone who has added their opinion. I am genuinely interested in both sides of the issue, even though I have my own opinion. Reading other perspectives has helped me see that this isn't black and white and like many issues, it depends.
I still don't know if it's ethical, but then some people don't think it's right that we try for another baby with our history.
Thanks also for not turning this into a slinging match.
I just wanted to pipe up and say that more often than not there are not unwanted embryos left after an IVF cycle or cycles. Sure, it happens, but not all the time.
Yes, certainly more comfortable than discarding fertilised embryos. But I can't see myself ever going down the gender selection path at all - but sperm sorting would be my choice if I did.:
I agree with n2l on this but I also dont think it is 'ethical' to dispose of unwanted blasto's either regardless of reasons created.:
I guess it's slightly off topic, but personally I feel it's all part of the same issue. Society does currently control other peoples fertility. By refusing tests or treatments to a woman over a certain BMI, you are denying her fertility. What I'm saying is, our fertility is controlled anyway, but everyone has their sticking points. There's always going to be someone disadvantaged by a rule. I don't think you can say a woman can abort a baby at any gestation for any reason, and then say she can't destroy an embryo because it's the wrong gender.:
Basically, you either make sure people are fully informed of the possible consequences of their decision and allow them their choice, or you ban it all. I don't think there's a middle ground, not one that makes ethical sense, anyway.
*'You' is not Arcadia, it's a generalised 'you :)
I personally don't have any problem with gender selection for any reason. I think the easiest way to explain my reasons for feeling this way is to state why I disagree with and comment on many of the arguments that are often used against it. I'm by no means saying that I'm right and others are wrong, because I think each individuals view on a topic like this is a product of their beliefs and experiences.
I'll take other people's comments only in order to comment on them as they are what many people think, not to be personal with that poster.
"To create life in the form of an embryo and reject it based solely on sex seems abhorrent to me."
I can certainly understand why people would feel this way. Of course it depends on when you believe a person is created. Some think it's at conception, others when the embryo becomes a fetus, others when the baby is born. Personally I believe a person is all they can be after conception takes place as they now have the total genetic makeup that could make them into a human being. Having said that you might think that I am against creating embryos that may be destroyed. But that would mean I would have to be against all forms of ART/IVF procedures that may result in extra embryos that never get used and ultimately are destroyed, and I'm not. I don't see much difference in destroying embryos for gender purposes versus destrying them because more fertilised than were needed. I guess I tend to ask the question of those against embryos being created that may not be used is, if you went through IVF to conceive and had extra embryos would you use every single one even if you felt your family was complete? Yes there is certainly a difference between couples undergoing IVF for fertility reasons and those for gender selection, but the end outcome of destroyed embryos can be the same in both.
"culture like China or India, where one sex is valued more than the other"
I've read many times that people are against gender selection because if it was allowed in countries with a gender preference the population would become saturated with one gender. This is possibly correct to some degree, but no culture would ever get to the point where they only have one gender left and are unable to procreate. It's almost a situation of supply and demand. If one gender became extremely short in supply, the demand for it would go up. Surely the gender in short supply would become "more desirable" than previously and the imbalance would level out at some point. Also, in a country like China where there is a severe over population problem I don't see how a lower population growth rate due to gender imbalance would necessarily be a bad thing.
"If the choice was supposed to be ours, it wouldn't be a biological process."
I guess this is largely a religious sort of dilemma. If God wanted the choice to be ours then he would have made it possible? Perhaps he did by giving us the mental capacity to be able to create the process to do what we can...
"I think the children who were genetically selected have an enomous amount of pressure on them to fulfill their parents dreams of them"
I believe we all have hopes and dreams for all of our children regardless of how they are brought into the world. Would a parent who was able to fall pregnant naturally once, then needed to use IVF for a subsequent child feel any differently toward each of their children? Would the IVF baby feel more pressure to succeed due to the finances that were spent on conceiving it? I personally don't think so based on my equal love, affection and dreams for my three kids. If you mean that a parent would be disappointed if a child they gender selected didn't fit the stereotype for that gender (like pink, fluffy, girly or blue, rugged, and rough), I also don't think this would be an issue. Like someone else said, each child is individual and some girls can be tomboys, whilst some boys can have very feminine qualities. I think the majority of people are aware it's the "luck of the draw" in the personality department.
"I couldn't help thinking that what if after all that, the pregnancy never progressed to full term..getting pregnant and staying pregnant is so emotional anyway, but to go through all that extra emotional and financial strain, just for a particular sex?"
I hate the term 'Gender dissapointment' because I feel it applies that someone doesn't love an existing child of a particular gender because it's not what they wanted. I don't believe this is true in most cases. The parent loves the child, but can't help but mourn the dream of a child they may never have. I mention this because the above sort of statement implies that the emotional stress of IVF and pregnancy and the finances involved would be greater than those that might possibly be experienced by having a child of the less desired gender and suffering gender dissapointment (which may include PND) and possibly require proffesional counselling.
"The cost..... it's not really fair on your existing children is it?"
What if finances are not an issue? Is it ok then?
"I think god, the universe, our higher power only deals us cards that we can deal with."
This is similar to one of the comments above. It makes me ask the question of whether people with this belief think that infertile couples shouldn't be able to use IVF either?
"why would anyone put themselves through that if they didn't have to"
"I just, as many others on here want, a healthy full term alive baby so I guess I don't understand why the gender would drive people to do this"
The fact that people are willing to go through the process to achieve their dream should show how passionate they are. The desire that many couples feel to simply have a live baby might be very similar to the desire someone feels for a baby of particular gender. Our emotions are so individual that there is no was to quantify desire and say that one person's desire is greater than another's.
"many of us might not be here if our parents got to choose our sex"
If you father ejaculated even a fraction of a second later a different sperm (or none!) might have made it to the egg instead and hence you might not be here... No further comment ;)
"I just don't get how someone could love/want one sex more than another"
What about if a woman had been subjected to rape and molestation at the hands of a male and was desperately afraid of having a girl for fear it would also hapen to her? Or on the other hand, desperately afraid of having a boy that might DO the same? Surely in some instances it's completely understandable to see why some people may prefer one gender over another (not just in cases like this, but other situations as well). Of course I believe that those psychological issues may be overcome, but I also believe that it could be an easier path for some if they were able to gender select. It's similar to the case that Traveller mentioned.
"I realise that gender disappointment is real, but it's something I don't understand.."
I think that is a really crucial point when it comes to an issue like this. It's very hard to see the other side when you haven't walked another's path.
"it made me very judgemental of people who have a family all the same gender who don't realise the gift they have"
I don't think there are many parent's out there that don't realise the gift they have. It's more about grieving the gift you don't have. You can love your children to the moon and back and still feel that something is missing.
"but the wrong gender is NOT a medical issue"
Techinically it sort of can be. A study has shown that males who have more than one of a particular gender is more likely to conceive the same gender again. The results showed that a male with 4 of one gender already had at least an 80% chance of conceiving the same gender again. The 50:50 ratio isn't medically true and many factors can make it more likely for a father to produce more (or healthier) X or Y sperm. So it raises the question of whether it's ok to use science to correct this medical issue that may or may not be caused by nature in the male.
"The IVF journey to conceive a baby is hard enough, let alone trying to get one of a particular sex"
The journey simply to conceive is difficult too, as I know you know. But it took me 9 months (and a heart breaking miscarriage) to naturally conceive my baby boy, and only 3 months (2 cycles) of IVF to get my first daughter. For me personally the 9 months and the loss of my first precious baby was harder than my IVF journey. At least after having PGD I knew my embryo was chromosomally healthy and had a better chance of survival and not resulting in miscarriage than a baby not PGD tested (which as a 3 day old embryo has about at 50% chance of chromosome abnormalities which make it "incompatible with life" according to my IVF geneticist).
"she has categorically decided with her doctors to terminate if its male"
I believe that access to gender selection would reduce infanticide and abortion rates. A plus in my books.
" Because somewhere along the line, someone is deciding which embryo to implant: the specialists can look at development, health and chromosomes and ultimately someone is making that call...why not the parents?"
I agree. If there are two suitable embryos for transfer and they happen to be of differing genders, what does it matter if the parents decide which they would prefer?
"Would you be comfortable with sperm sorting (sorting x sperm from Y sperm) and then only using the selected sex sperm to fertilise the egg?"
A very good question! Many clinics in America use sperm sorting techniques to gender select, therefore there are no extra embryos to potentially be discarded. The success rate is no where near as accurate as PGD though where the sex chromosomes are looked at and the only error can be human error. I'm sure if you told a clinic that you only wanted one egg per cycle fertilised with a sperm that had been sorted, they would probably do it. But your chances of fertilisation, correct growth, implantation and successful pregnancy would be greatly affected. But, would that be ethically ok because there are no extra embryos?
"What next? Want only blue eyes, only tall children?"
I don't think most people realise what a massive leap it is from gender selection to so-called "designer babies". With gender selection you are talking about having a particular chomosome looked at to determine the sex. At the same time they usually look at a number of other chromosomes to make sure the embryo is chromosomally normal. We only have 23 pairs of chromosomes (so 46 chromosomes). Each of the chromosomes are made up of hundreds to thousands of genes to make up a total of over 25,000 genes in our genome. Specific traits are not defined by a single gene on a single chromosome. Even something like eye colour is defined by a number of genes. In order to make a baby with a particular eye colour you wouldn't simply be talking about looking at a single gene and selecting an embryo with that gene, you are talking about science advancing to the point where we are able to splice every single gene involved in a particular trait, create the genes we want, and replace them in the genome. Not to mention that many genes affect more than one trait as well. We are so far away from that technology that gender selection and designer babies are so different that they are not even distant cousins.
I think I should stop my essay now. Once again I want to mention that none of my comments are directed personally at anyone, and I respect each person's thoughts and beliefs. Like I mentioned, it's an extremely personal topic for everyone and is based on individual beliefs and experiences that all have merit. There is certainly no right or wrong with a topic like this. But it certainly makes for an awesome discussion!!!
I have NO issue whatsoever with gender selection for family balancing. That is, once a family has had one child through natural gender selection then I think they can go for their lives and have IVF to select the gender of their child if that's what rocks their boat. I seriously just don't see the problem with people doing that if they want :dunno:
For me personally, I have two sons and I have suffered gender yearning for a girl. It doesn't seem to be as strong now but I am still intrigued by using IVF for gender selection and given that it's legal where I am currently living I am going to actively research it just to know what it costs and what is involved so that I fully understand my choices.
I am well aware that IVF is difficult physically and emotionally and I am very blessed not to need it. I do not take the idea lightly and I think it would be this point that would be the biggest factor in stopping me from doing it as I really don't want to go through IVF.
Then there's the cost. Yes, the idea of limiting my family's lifestyle for gender selection does also concern me. If it cost $5K then maybe? My homebirth cost $5K and I didn't HAVE to it but I saw it as a time in our family where my baby & I were worth the money so we spent it. I'm pondering at what cost my longing for a daughter, and bringing her into existence, is worth it. But whether or not we can even have another baby is an important consideration for our family. My eldest son needs a great deal of my time and having a baby would deprive him of that time so he would lose out and as such we wont be having baby any time soon, if at all. Creating babies is always a consideration for the whole family, so I think just saying the cost is not fair on the rest of the family is a moot point.
As for discarding embryos- if there were any more embryos than the one it took for me to get pregnant then I wouldn't want to use them, regardless of gender. I have no qualms with embryo donation so I would donate them. If I only had boy embryos then I would still happily donate them and either try another IVF cycle or decide it's time to TTC naturally and get whatever we got. Which still excites me, because I love my little boys SO very much and another one would never, ever be a hardship.
As to why I feel gender yearnings for a girl. No, it is not so I can dress her in pink or go girly shopping. I don't do those things myself and I don't want a girl so she can fit the stereotype of being a girl. Men and women ARE different. When I picture having a girl I envisage having a woman. Having a child who I have that life long parent/child relationship with who is a woman and relates to me from that perspective. If she has children, then discussing my labours & breastfeeding journies with her, and having her relate because I'm her mother and it holds a personal meaning to her. I wouldn't care at all if she was a tomboy. If she turned out to be transgender then yes, I probably would have a quiet chuckle to myself about why on earth we went through IVF to have her (not that we had her at all, just that we used IVF to do it) and I wouldn't bother if I knew that in advance, but naturally I'd still love her, now him, because he would be my child and that would be the main thing.
Mylitta- thank you for your essay. It's certainly helped me see the other side better. I dont know that I'm
convinced, but I dont feel as judgemental as I originally did.
As always meow you say things so well, with honesty and respect. Evan tho I still do really get it, I can see exactly were you are coming from.
I think it's great also that you could embryo donate. Would you consider donating your eggs?
As long as the ivf didn't mean you couldn't afford another Hb :)
Thanks for putting your pov out there meow
Mylitta my DH and I have discussed it and yes we would use all fertilised eggs if we had had to do ivf. The thought of discarding/donating embryos is that upsetting for us that if that wasn't a choice I believe we wouldn't start ivf.
For sure. I have looked into egg donation in the past and I was very keen to do it one day. But I'm already 36, still BFing, not sure I've finished my family and was born with a cleft palate so the chances of me ever being able to donate are pretty much nill.:
Oh. It's a bit rough to think your eggs aren't wanted lol :)
Good point!:
No matter what you're beliefs are, life is still a biological process.
The use of any technology to assist, alter or amend is simply an interference of this process. Regardless of whether it's needed or not. (Not at all a snub at those needing IVF etc at all)
Take away the technology and mental capacity is still but a thought.
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I find the thought of gender selection quite awful personally. I can't imagine rejecting a child based purely on its gender, although I guess that comes back to when you believe it becomes "a child", as opposed to product, tissue or whatever. I've also had a bumpy ride along the TTC/pregnancy road, so again am just grateful for three healthy children.
I have had a ton of comments throughout my pregnancy from people expressing how disappointed they are for me that I'm having another girl. I have found those comments to be extremely offensive because I was just thrilled to be carrying a healthy baby. I am now totally in love with my newest girl, and can't imagine our family being any other way.
What I have found interesting reading through everyone's posts is that those that have expressed a desire or an understanding of others' desires to use gender selection, or feel their family is incomplete because of same gender children have all been women who are mothers of boys, whereas most of us with only girls have expressed satisfaction. I wonder if there is some sort of biological reason for that? Maybe it goes a little way to explaining why there is such a strong view in society about the whole "pigeon pair" thing. Sorry - I don't think I've worded any of this very eloquently but I hope you know what I'm trying to say.
I read a study that was done in Australia that basically did a population survey to find out if people would use gender selection to get a boy or a girl. They found that there was a small preference toward selection of a girl. It wasn't a huge difference though. From memory it mentioned that many western cultures had a slight preference for girls, whereas eastern cultures preferred boys.:
With BB being such a female oriented environment I wonder if there are many Dad's out there with all girl families that secretly suffer gender disappointment that we never hear about. It's such a secretive disorder as it is (and many people won't admit to it for fear of being judged) and males tend not to share those sorts of emotions as easily as woman. I guess I'm just curious if woman are more likely to experience "gender yearning" for a girl if they have all boys, and men more likely to experience "gender yearning" for a boy if they have all girls...
That's interesting that its close to an even split. I have the same curiosity as you - is our desire for a particular gender linked to our own gender the driving force, or are particular people (and I don't mean that in any way to be a judgmental thing about a person's character) prone to just wanting each while others are happy with the same of whatever ITMS.
I can't speak for men everywhere, but I am confident in saying that my DH couldn't be happier with his brood of girls. He is not a bloke's bloke by a very, very long way but he is incredibly sporty. It is something we have talked about quite a bit and he has always consistently maintained that he has no disappointment whatsoever at not having a boy. His dad on the other hand, not so happy about our inability to produce someone to carry on the family name!!
I've just realised I've never actually asked hubby if he would have been disappointed if we hadn't had a boy. Maybe it never crossed my mind because he has two boys from a previous marriage that live with us, so it may not have been as important to him to have one with me as it might for other Dads. I know he was almost as keen as me to experience parenting a girl as well though. He recently admitted that our DD1 is his favorite child at the moment. I told him off for admitting to it even though I already knew it was the case. Lol, she has him wrapped around her little finger at only 17 months! He adores all the kids, but she just knows how to work him at the moment with the looks she gives him and her super snuggly personality. His preference might change when she's a teen haha!