Ethics of artificial sex selection

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That's interesting that its close to an even split. I have the same curiosity as you - is our desire for a particular gender linked to our own gender the driving force, or are particular people (and I don't mean that in any way to be a judgmental thing about a person's character) prone to just wanting each while others are happy with the same of whatever ITMS.

I can't speak for men everywhere, but I am confident in saying that my DH couldn't be happier with his brood of girls. He is not a bloke's bloke by a very, very long way but he is incredibly sporty. It is something we have talked about quite a bit and he has always consistently maintained that he has no disappointment whatsoever at not having a boy. His dad on the other hand, not so happy about our inability to produce someone to carry on the family name!!

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My Dh is the same. He is really proud to have a family of girls. He doesnt wish or want for a boy at all. I have asked him, and he says gender doesnt matter to him. I always say that hes the lucky one cause he has his daddy's little girls and Ive missed out on a mummas boy :)
In our situation though, we have broken a massive trend in dh's family... For 6 generations the first born of the first born has always been a boy. Going down the family tree on his dad's side there are very few males. Then along comes dh and he and I produce all girls. His family were so sure we'd have boys that we never got anything girl related before any of the girls were born! :lol:

I know my DH loves his girls more than anything in the world and always wanted daughters. But yes I totally believe he would have been a bit disappointed if we hadn't got a boy.

I don't think I would have minded all girls but now I have a son I do feel a bit sad that not everyone can experience loving a daughter and a son. It's so completely different.

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I know my DH loves his girls more than anything in the world and always wanted daughters. But yes I totally believe he would have been a bit disappointed if we hadn't got a boy.

I don't think I would have minded all girls but now I have a son I do feel a bit sad that not everyone can experience loving a daughter and a son. It's so completely different.

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Really?? Please do not feel sad for me, it is not your place. I have no issues not having a son, in fact I have slight preference for it being that way. Everyone life is different, what you value is not always what others value. Save your energy for those who do need it. I do not need your sadness, it just make me annoyed.

Just wanted to say there is a world of difference between gender disappointment, gender swaying and artificial gender selection.

I also wanted to add that I would love to have a little boy. DP is the only son of an only son so the line stops with him. Patriarchal concern perhaps but I know he would dearly love to have a little boy to carry on the family line (along with a million other reasons!) That said, we would be happy to be blessed with a child of either sex. Actually, 'happy' doesnt quite cover it.....maybe ecstatic is a better word!

And havng been where we've been, and having done what we've done with IVF, I don't think we would ever contemplate artificial sex selection through IVF, even if it was available to us.

Sorry Astrid that came across wrong. Perhaps I should have said I'm thankful I got to see what it's like to love and parent both. Seeing I was so certain and happy with the idea I'd get four of the same sex.

I don't really feel sorry for anyone that has healthy happy children.

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Just wanted to say there is a world of difference between gender disappointment, gender swaying and artificial gender selection.
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I guess that's where we are all different. From what I can gather from this thread there are a lot of people who don't see a difference.

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With BB being such a female oriented environment I wonder if there are many Dad's out there with all girl families that secretly suffer gender disappointment that we never hear about. It's such a secretive disorder as it is (and many people won't admit to it for fear of being judged) and males tend not to share those sorts of emotions as easily as woman. I guess I'm just curious if woman are more likely to experience "gender yearning" for a girl if they have all boys, and men more likely to experience "gender yearning" for a boy if they have all girls...

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I have directly asked DH if he yearns for a son. given our journey, other children are probably not going to happen, no matter the gender, so we've discussed it at length. he is the last in the family line, so unless DD decides not marry/change name, and any children of hers keep our surname, the line ends here. it is something that has plagued me. i have no yearning myself to have a male child. if i were to fall pregnant, i think i'd want another girl. i really don't know why though! but DH has said he is happy with DD - if we had a son, it would be a bonus, if not, then so be it

as a flip to the conversation, i have said to friends, and i stand by it, that if DH yearned for a son, and i could guarantee him one, i'd go through the hell of IVF and pregnancy again - i'd find a way to afford it so that he could have that. if we'd had a son first, i'd not contemplate it for a daughter though (even though i always wanted a girl - even when i was a kid myself). given he has no yearning though, we are just letting Mother Nature do her thing... i don't know why i feel that way - i can't explain why i would put myself through that for his yearning but not for myself. it's weird...

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I know my DH loves his girls more than anything in the world and always wanted daughters. But yes I totally believe he would have been a bit disappointed if we hadn't got a boy.

I don't think I would have minded all girls but now I have a son I do feel a bit sad that not everyone can experience loving a daughter and a son. It's so completely different.

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This echoes my thoughts as well. Had I had a second daughter I would not have been disappointed at all, but now I have one of each I after that it is completely different.
I am the first to admit my hubby would have been disappointed had we not had a boy, although I'm sure he would have loved a daughter just as mich. our girl is a complete daddy's girl and he wouldn't have it any other way ;)

BG - it's cos you love him :heartbeat: ;)

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BG - it's cos you love him :heartbeat: ;)

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yeah, i won't argue that! i was happy to be a kidless chickadee forever til i met him and seen him with my brother's three month old. he told me he wanted kids and i caved... i love my DD with all my heart, but i wouldn't have gone through what i went through had it not been for his desire to be a Daddy


i've ready back through this thread and the comments about discarding embryos that are otherwise healthy has struck a chord, and watching the comments - for the most part, i can see the people that have a major issue with it are either long termers that crave a child, no matter the gender - or those who, from my reading, have a religious issue with it. trying to be objective, it appears it is all coming down to "filters" - where our lives have taken us and how we see it for US - and therefore, how it feels like it should be for society as a whole. most long termers that i am friends with have a "leave none behind" mentality when it comes to frozen embryos - but then most tend to have a problem falling pregnant, success isn't guaranteed, and they go through many embryo's for one successful pregnancy - embryo's created for no reason other than for gender selection potentially have a much higher chance of successfully being carried to term...

personally, i do have an issue with IVF/PGD for gender selection based purely on a WANT basis. the technology is hard enough for the average person with a medical NEED to access at a reasonable price - if it's to become even MORE commercial than it is already, it's going to make it even more unaffordable for those with a NEED, and I have an issue with that. This isn't about me personally - although I know my experiences will color my view to a degree - it's about making access to medical technology fair and appropriate for those who have an actual need for it. It's about making sure there isn't abuse of available technology just because someone can pay for it.

i have grown up with this technology as something i was always well aware of. i was neighbours (and friends) with Australia's first IVF baby. So i've always known it was around, and what it meant to access it. I see it as a privilege to live in a society in which this has been available for the past 32-33 years. i am forever grateful that it has helped us to bring a child into the world. i would hate to see it abused by the "haves" at the expense of the "have nots" - for someone like myself, i cycle at a regional clinic - as it stands, with IVF just being used for those with a medical need, i had to wait a minimum of 3 months just for the clinic to be out here, and up to 6 months for a spot in the clinic when it was here - if those spots are taken by those who are having FET's for gender selection purposes, the access for those with a NEED could well be blown out to once every 9-12 months unless they travel...




i guess sperm sorting and IUI sounds like a more appropriate option - natural ovulation cos mum has no fertility issues, clean and sort the sperm and then still let it happen naturally...

Much as I want a girl for religious reasons, there is no way I would go through AC and discard an embryo just because it was male.

I just want a baby to be earthside and healthy, I don't care about the sex of it.

The only time I'd consider sex selection is for medical reasons, if my OH and I were both carrying the recessive gene that would impact on one sex, then I would consider selection then.

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personally, i do have an issue with IVF/PGD for gender selection based purely on a WANT basis. the technology is hard enough for the average person with a medical NEED to access at a reasonable price - if it's to become even MORE commercial than it is already, it's going to make it even more unaffordable for those with a NEED, and I have an issue with that. This isn't about me personally - although I know my experiences will color my view to a degree - it's about making access to medical technology fair and appropriate for those who have an actual need for it. It's about making sure there isn't abuse of available technology just because someone can pay for it.

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I totally understand that concern, and I specifically asked my FS about that at my first appointment. I expressed to him my feeling of guilt that I might be taking up time and resources from a couple that were unable to conceive without the IVF system. He responded by asking me "How long did it take you to get an appointment with me?". It took me just under two weeks, and that was even with him only consulting at the clinic 2-3 days a week. He then explained to me that the IVF system is generally only stressed for time and resources in more remote areas where clinics only run periodically. He said that if IVF with PGD for gender selection became available for any couples it would actually increase the amount of money coming into the IVF system (especially considering medicare and PHI wouldn't cover anything) and that it would result in added resources in the long run, and therefore actually benefit infertile couples. I was rather surprised when he told me all that, but it certainly made me feel less guilty.

in theory, yes, that might be the way they see it - but a FS is just another business person with a different skill set - they are going to be looking at the dollars coming in and how to expand their business. in a money based, rather than needs based "economy" for IVF, yes, it probably looks fantastic for them.

but your FS was also looking at the situation with appointments NOW - where there ARE strict controls on who and why access is made available - maybe user pays medicine might not change that - but the cynical side of me thinks it would. there is not going to be a triage system to make sure those with a need are guaranteed priority over those who want.... it's going to be first in best dressed, or the "business" side of things will drive the price up, so it becomes a case of those who can afford it will get preference, and those who are in need of assistance paying for treatment will make up a compulsory, but minimal, portion of "patients" to keep medicare/government/regulatory bodies happy. it's already like this, to a degree, now - but at least it's an even playing field for private patients with rebates etc (well for the most part - safety net thresholds aside) - if the regulation on cost etc that is controlled somewhat by medicare rebate amounts is removed by allowing "full fee paying" services, it is going to drive the price up and those that struggle but make it happen will find treatment they require is out of their budget - so the "wants" get their wants, cos they'll pay whatever it costs, the "needs" miss out cos they can't afford it or places are taken that shouldn't be...

again, personal filters from having been "in the system" for so long - and probably from looking a bit beyond AU and seeing the user pays system in the US - it's all about who can afford it, not who deserves to have access to the treatment...



ETA - i don't know the specifics of the gender linked issue you used PGD to avoid, but i know there was one - so your circumstances are the type that PGD should be used for!

FWIW - my first FS appt took 2 months, once i was "in the system" - it was generally about a month from ringing to getting appointment - and anywhere from 4 weeks to 6 months to get a spot in the local clinic. had the IUI the conceived DD not worked, it would have been May-November between treatment cycles as i couldn't be slotted into the clinic in the August due to limited places available...