Is online flirting ok?

My advice to you is this. He needs to show you now he respects you. Reaffirm that. Till you trust him again. And if he doesn't do that no matter how you feel today, and if there is a next time or not, There will be a hole in your marriage. And surely but slowly the edges will continue to crumble and eventually you'll have a gaping canyon. Please take this seriously. Trust is huge. Betraying that is massive. This is not about you being patient or a better person. This is about you respecting yourself by expecting a level of respect in return. And it's about him not thinking this is just a little bump in the road and that you need to get over it. No way. Good luck :hug:

Ladybird, I totally get not wanting to thrash it all out now, but do make sure he knows this conversation isn't over and can be revisited as often as necessary "unless and until" you feel he gets it.
When I was much younger I was living with the man I thought I was going to be with forever. We were at the reception for a wedding where I was in the bridal party, and some trollop decided she wanted him (what is it about predatory females? Makes me sick). They got very drunk, disappeared together, my world imploded. It gets worse, but not relevant, except to say that the next morning he woke full of contrition, biggest mistake, so terribly sorry, whatever.
We tried to make it work after that, but I was supposed to just forget it ever happened and move on. I wasn't allowed to bring it up, I assume because he was ashamed, which meant I couldn't heal or move past it. Needless to say we never recovered, but I believe still that if we'd done the work things might have been different.
You didn't overreact, don't let him play this down or make you the bad guy.
Big hugs

Thank you for your wise words there Rouge and LittleLara...

It is funny you say that...since my last post it seems the 'bump' has been forgotten about and I was wondering if its 'okay' to bring it up again for fear of being the nag...I don't think there are any rule books here which I need to follow though.

Today I guess I'm showing some trust in that he's gone to the Adelaide Royal Show - a place where we ran into this 'so called friend' last year. So I'm a bit nervous he'll run into her there. I did mention it to him and he said he'd turn and walk in another direction and act like he never saw her.

I guess I'm just trying to act how I would want to be treated if the roles were reversed. I'm trying to be as true to myself as I can :)

Can you trust him when he tells you tonight that she wasn't there? Or will you doubt him?

How someone wants to be treated and how they deserve to be treated are often two different things. Everyone wants to be treated with trust and respect. Those who abuse the trust and disrespect others - they don't deserve the treatment they want. Hugs to you. You're doing such a good job, I'm just scared that he'll think he's "in the clear" or that you don't feel so deeply about it: he went from saying he knew it was wrong to thinking it isn't just in the life of this thread and you're still being lovely to him. I couldn't do that, kudos to you.

You are right on so many levels FlyingButter...

I'm wondering how I can instil that he's not yet in the clear, without going over the topic anymore? As I would like to keep this in the forefront of his mind for awhile without being so obvious about it?? Or is that being ridiculous?

He came home, I haven't asked if he ran into her - but I'm fairly sure if he had he would have told me. Don't even ask me why I'm so confident, its just a feeling!......Hang on, he did watch the cows today - maybe he did see her after all ;)

I actually think you're in a fair bit of denial over how much serious damage he has caused here, which is normal. I just worry that he will hope and expect this to fade into the past without him acknowledging that he actually needs to *do* proactive things to fix what he's done. If that doesn't happen, resentment will just build and build, even if you don't feel like it will now, I promise you it will :hug:

I've gotta ask a really silly question, what should he do to fix what he's done - because I honestly can't think of a thing!

What would it take for you to trust him again?

Do you, honestly, trust him 100% to go out on his own, be on facebook on his own, talk to certain people?

How can he earn that trust back? Texting you to check in every couple of hours? Culling certain people from his life and allowing you to check this has really happened? Internet site blocks, or you having full access to his FB/email?

Actually talking in full about how he is going to avoid the temptation to be stupid in the future, how he will put you first and seeing that this is not on, rather than just "ooopsie".

I agree with TFB, having full access to 'him' In essence, to be able to check up on him when how and where ever you feel it necessary. But I also think that is why counselling would be important. You need to redefine boundaries. You need full disclosure. He needs to realise the seriousness of his actions. You both need support and help. Together and alone.

Well for one, I wouldn't be happy with him going somewhere he knows full well the woman whom he wants to see in a bikini and likely a lot less could be. I wouldn't trust for a second that he'd tell you if he saw her tbh. Also, allowing you to talk about it whenever you needed to, not being dismissive or shutting the conversation down. He wants you to just get over it. That's not trying to me. His reasons for doing what he did were shonky and weak, he's not owning up to what he's done.

:

---

I've gotta ask a really silly question, what should he do to fix what he's done - because I honestly can't think of a thing!

---

Only YOU can answer that. Perhaps ask him what he thinks he can do to help repair the broken trust too.

This really is about what YOU can live with, what you want to happen from here and how you want it to happen.
The only person who needs to be satisfied with his answers and explanations is YOU. We can't tell you what to believe or how to feel.

Yep. Allowing you to see his FB messages whenever you please. Check his phone if you feel the need. Not going places she'll likely be, or if he has to, you going with him. Being honest & telling you if he does see her.

I agree that you need to get him to see this is more serious than he thinks. Otherwise he won't see anything wrong with doing it again. You need to set a boundary now. If flirting on facebook is acceptable, he won't see anything wrong with pushing the next boundary until he's caught. Then what? Getting over it & waiting for the next boundary to be pushed? You need to draw that line now. Make it very clear that if you ever catch him doing any flirting like this, of ANY kind (FB, text, in person) that its over. Not another word will be said. Even if you think you wouldn't walk away, make him believe it anyway. If he's going to risk you walking away, then you will know where you stand & that you probably shouldn't be there in the first place.

I agree with much of what's already been said.

I've put up with a lot of things from my DP that I wasn't happy about. Not the same as your situation but bad temper, emotional manipulation and various other things where nothing is big enough to walk away but there is enough to really weaken the relationship and cause a lot of resentment.

DP has 'got away with it' for a very long time because I didn't set a boundary - I didn't say 'if you keep treating me like this, I will walk away.' And I should have done.

I know from experience that it's really tempting when the other person says 'let's move on' to think, 'yes, that sounds sensible' - why keep going over the same old ground. DP is a master at saying 'I can't change the past, I can only work on the future'. Sounds appealing doesn't it? But the problem is that the actions of the past cause hurt and resentment.

As to what to do - well yes, that's entirely up to you. I haven't said to my DP - 'if you talk to me like that again, I'm leaving' because I think that's too big a call but I have made it very clear to him that what he's done has seriously damaged the relationship and there needs to be change if I'm going to stick with it.

He needs to work out why he was flirting/making arrangements in the first place, what made him feel he wanted to do that and how can he avoid doing it again. Saying, "I won't do it again," doesn't really cut it and wouldn't give me much reassurance.

He has gone beyond flirting and what he was doing is wrong. All that has been said already.
But he cannot do anything to gain your trust, only time and you letting down your guard will get that trust back. But he needs to realise he was doing the wrong thing, that its not acceptable, that he crossed a line and has hurt you.

"I've gotta ask a really silly question, what should he do to fix what he's done - because I honestly can't think of a thing!"

I agree with what the others said above. Also something else a friend of mine did when this happened in her relationship was she told her DH he had to 'woo' her again.
Basically show her she was his only one, take her out on dates, Buy her special things, let her know he cares about her. Think about it as 'starting from scratch' again. If he wants time from you then he needs to organise time to be with you.

Hugs, I hope things work out for you.

:hug: I know this has sucked for you and in sorry I've only just found this thread. I think you've handled it so so well. I wouldn't be so calm. Trust your gut but don't be afraid to tell him exactly what he needs to do to earn your trust again. Spell it out. Make him block her if you feel it's warranted.

Call me any time.

Ooh, I really like chrispe's answer. Time together doesn't just magically happen, not when you're working so hard. If he wants it he can make it happen. It's the least you deserve. Let him woo you.
What he did was the actions of a spoilt baby who's feeling neglected. He needs to be a grown up.
Also, has he removed her from fb? Do you have his passwords? Even if you never want or intend to use them, it might be good to know you can, iTMS.
I really believe in transparency in all things.

My x went to counselling once and sat there and basically stated he wasn't going to cut the person out of his life because they were friends. He couldn't see what was wrong with what he'd done. They were in an emotional affair way before it became physical (this time, he'd done it numerous times before with her with past partners which I found out after we totally split). The emotional affair part was way more damaging to us as a couple than the physical was. I could never trust him again & he wasn't prepared to do anything to help rebuild that trust.

We had a lot of other issues (abusive relationship, his undiagnosed narcissistic personality disorder), but the betrayal of trust was the worst by far.

Now, for me, in relationships, trust is the most important thing, if they do anything to erode the trust they are sent packing. This is something they are told about at the start, they know there are consequences to their actions, I am now a strong enough person to follow through.

Sorry, I did reply yesterday but lost the post :-/

I agree Limeslice, I guess I have to sit down and have a bit of a think about what I need to happen. I honestly feel that it will just be time. As much as as I love presents, the happiness associated with them are usually only temporary.

After this incident came to light he deactivated his FB off his own back and hasn't been on since. I don't mind him being on FB at all now (due to being busy with our schedules we get little time to interact with our real friends, FB is a means to maintain somewhat of a connection, as long as its with the right people!), thus I've told him he needs to de-friend her if he does choose to reactivate FB - but he is pretty dead set that he doesn't want to go near it again.

I don't want passwords and access to his accounts. I will happily ask him and hope he gives an honest reply as a means to help rebuild trust, if I learn of any lies then there is big trouble - possibly irreconcilable IYKWIM.

As for the ladies who've had it much harder than me, I send you my virtual hugs. You must be so strong - I wish I had half your strength!

The way you are handling this has nothing to do with not having enough strength to do anything else. It's a lot to do with the strength to be true to yourself and do what you need to do to see this time through.
I would be doing something similar. For me it would be a matter of hoping he'll tell the truth and if he doesn't then until I get the gut feeling that he's hiding something it's up to him to reconcile within himself and decide where he wants to be. If he wanted to stay with me and still felt a pull towards to someone else then he would really need to work on what was going on with that, and that may also possibly mean I'd have to decide where I wanted to be, under what terms and weigh that up with what work we'd BOTH have to do to achieve our goal, or separate goals.
I guess I'm just not into forcing a relationship for the sake of a relationship if one or both people have departed from it. I was nearly there and I was going through the motions of the relationship and DP was stubbornly sticking to it even though I wanted out. He stuck to it long enough for me to realise there was a glimmer of hope left in what we had. Sometimes I still have to look for that glimmer. It's still there, so I am too.
It's not about some idea of strength, but about what you need to do xx

I don't think I would ever ask for access to my partner's FB accounts or phone. I don't think trust is built that way personally. I think him deactivating his FB account of his own back was a good start, but I agree, this is going to take time. If he doesn't do it again, it'll happen. If he does, then I think you will decide then what you will do.

It's not that I think you SHOULD check up on him, it's more that for me, at least, knowing I could would give a some small comfort in the wee hours when these things become larger than life, itms?
It's like when I gave up smoking. I kept one in a packet knowing that if I really 'needed' to, the option was there. I never did, but I would have got more anxious and probably had to buy a packet without it.
You handle things the way you're comfortable hon, I hope he proves you right x

If I were caught flirting/cheating on fb. To prove myself I'd probably give it up freely. Me and DH know each others passwords for everything. Not because we are worried or stalk. Just because it doesn't make a difference to know them. But we aren't normal. I know that :)

DH and I have access to each other's FB accounts and phones anyway: not that we use it (or at least I don't), but as there's nothing to hide there's no point in changing passwords or suchlike so the other cannot access it. (DH did freak out when he logged into my e-mail instead of his and started shouting that he didn't know who X was who was e-mailing him: my friend e-mailing me. All happy again.)

However, if you're happy without access then don't ask for it. If you don't want it there is no point.

As someone whose partner broke my trust with online stuff, complete transparency is essential. That means access to FB, emails, texts, everything. It may not be for everyone and certainly isn't necessary in an undamaged, normal relationship, but for us it's been a huge help in healing and regaining trust. It's what every counsellor we've seen has advocated. But it only works if both people are on board. If one or more parties don't want that/aren't happy with that, that's fine.

It's easy to give someone your FB password, your email password, access to your phone, your Internet login.

The only thing easier is to have other FB accounts, email addresses, even phones...Ones that your other half know nothing about.

Trust is not built through constant surveillance or monitoring. If anything it breeds mistrust.

No of course not. But I guess that's why it's never occurred to us to keep it private. Because we trust each other. And if I thought for one second my partner would be creating false accounts to mess around I'd probably call it a day ;)

:

---

It's easy to give someone your FB password, your email password, access to your phone, your Internet login.

The only thing easier is to have other FB accounts, email addresses, even phones...Ones that your other half know nothing about.

Trust is not built through constant surveillance or monitoring. If anything it breeds mistrust.

---

I completely agree. DH has betrayed my trust with an online emotional relationship and a real life one (not that he sees it). Even with that, I would not demand his passwords etc, Whilst a part of me would want to control that much, the major part of me actually feels sick at the concept. They are grown men, not little children to be monitored and if I felt the need to monitor every move, then for me the damage as gone to far.

I agree Astrid. It also feeds paranoia.

DP has the password to my phone. And as he hosts my email account, I imagine if he really wanted to he could read my emails. It doesn't occur to me that he would, and if he did, I guess my biggest worry is him finding out how much I spend on shoes.

But it's different if he demands it, or I do. I don't think I could do it. And I don't expect him to. It's just one of those things I don't agree with, and that's me. So I get where ladybird is coming from.

:

---

Me and DH know each others passwords for everything. Not because we are worried or stalk. Just because it doesn't make a difference to know them. But we aren't normal. I know that :)

---

I'm not sure how that isn't normal? I thought most couples shared passwords etc, maybe we're not normal either :dunno:

:

---

DP has the password to my phone. And as he hosts my email account, I imagine if he really wanted to he could read my emails. It doesn't occur to me that he would, and if he did, I guess my biggest worry is him finding out how much I spend on shoes.

But it's different if he demands it, or I do. I don't think I could do it. And I don't expect him to. It's just one of those things I don't agree with, and that's me. So I get where ladybird is coming from.

---

We are pretty much the same. No demanding, we can get on each other computers any time. I only every log out of all of my stuff when he takes my laptop for work travel and that is more of a security measure in case someone steals it. The only thing he says is that he does not want access to the bank accounts, as he is crap with money. Yes, he has been a stoopid boy in the past, any snooping to find more stupidity takes way to much emotional energy (I know how obsessed and psycho I can become ;) )

Well I disagree with that :) I'm certainly not paranoid, and I trust DH more now than I did a year ago. It's a variable thing; lying was a big part of DH's problem. Accountability kept him honest until he decided he could do that on his own. I certainly am not snooping constantly or paranoid...I have software that tells me if ever i need worry about what DH is doing online to do that for me ;) But if I feel the need, I can check whatever I please. So can DH with me. I have nothing to hide. And it's finally at the point where he doesn't either, I can say that with 99% confidence. I don't think I'm breeding anything like that, and I don't think there is anything wrong with that.

:

---

I'm not sure how that isn't normal? I thought most couples shared passwords etc, maybe we're not normal either :dunno:

---

We're the same in this house. Possibly because my "standard" password has become our wifi password and several other things too, so he knows it by default.

I agree. When my ex was up to no good. I had the freedom to go through the phone & fb if I wanted. I chose not to, because I wanted to prove my trust to him & that we could get through it.

But then the phone was even going into the shower with him, when he was trying to fix his family. If I didn't take his phone while he was asleep, I wouldn't have known he was telling this girl he missed her while he was trying to fix 'us'. For me just leaving the phone out in the open would be necessary. Even though i probably would't go through it.

I guess my point is that liars are going to lie, cheaters are going to cheat no matter how many passwords they give you.

Relationships have to be built on trust and monitoring is not trusting behaviour.

Of course though, people are free to do what they like in their relationships :)

I don't think getting the passwords is going to make you trust anymore. With me it made me feel a little more paranoid. Especially since I caught his just deleting anything he didn't want me to read. He would still be doing the same things just got better at hiding it. It didn't help with the trust issues we had and ultimately just served me more pain and heart ache.

I hope that in time your DH proves that you can trust him, there is no awesome answer to how that will happen, there is no magic cure to make it all go away - for you I wish there was a way to take away your heartache and make things better. Xoxox


Cat xox

I find it suspicious that he deleted his facebook account. Was he burying a lot more history than he was prepared to risk you finding? Why couldn't he just delete her what will stop him starting a new facebook account with a clear history?

I just... That doesn't ring true to me, we all use facebook as an extension of how we communicate. To delete his entire account smells rotten to me.

I hesitated for days before writing this, I don't want to upset you or make things worse when I know this is really really difficult, but I'm just not sure that was a positive move he made.

Yeah well, my husband didn't deserve trust, he have away that privilege after the millionth time lying to me. I'd have been a fool to trust him any more than I did. Those sentiments don't really apply when trust has been forfeited by lie upon lie. When you don't have trust to build from, you've got to start from somewhere. You don't just trust an alcoholic to walk into a bar and not take a drink. Not for a very, very long time. He sets up accountability so that if that happens, people will know, he will get help, and he can keep trying to recover. That's how addicts get better. The fact that I can now trust what my DH says to me is the truth is because of the fact that I know, through hard evidence, that he is not lying. With time, I will be able to do that again without the need to check every now and then. 6+ months ago, I needed to check every day. Now, maybe once a week. Trust is slowly getting restored, working towards that holy grail here, but after what we've been through, it would be sheer idiocy for trust to be implied. And how awesome will that be? Until then though, this is actually a legitimate way for us both to recover from what has happened, and I'm so glad I haven't been told what a relationship does and doesn't 'have' to have (by someone else's definition) before now. How awesome is it that not everyone's relationships are all the same though? :)

I think that's the difference here, PZ - this seems to be a relationship issue, and not an addiction one, which requires a very different approach. With an addict you almost become a carer. With infidelity you're not caretaking the other person and what they do with their freedom is really what will determine the outcome.
Kuraiza raises a really good point. Depending on what his FB use was before, he's cutting loose a lot of other ties, not just his tie to her. It raises more questions than it puts to rest and may be worthy of a further conversation.