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No offence meant, but him telling you he doesn't know why he did it when he knew it was wrong is a cop out. He did it because he liked it, because he liked the idea of 'playing' with another woman, and he liked the attention and ego boost. Blaming you or your work situation at the moment are all just him deflecting blame onto you :hug:
And that's what it really boils down to - what YOU think is not ok, and to be honest, it sounds like you're not ok about this.
I have no issue with my man looking at porn, or having female friends, or going for coffees with other women, but would definitely have an issue with him saying to another woman that he wanted to go visit her so he could see her in a bikini.
I don't think I'm particularly tolerant either (just ask my DP). I expect my man to 110% for me too, as DP knows this and tbh, I think I expect nothing less than worship (lol). If I don't get that, I'll walk and he knows that. But I have never considered porn or being out with female friends cheating. So each to their own.
So YOU need to decide if this is not ok, within your relationship.
And to the other thing: I think any unwelcomed and uninvited touching of a woman in a sexual way IS assault. If some parties are ok with it, it doesn't make it less an assault. It just makes it seem that it's an acceptable thing to do, and the ones might even think of objecting will seem 'precious' in comparison. Some might laugh it off, other may not, but either way, not acceptable behaviour.
Sorry I posted at the same time. PZ is right. He may not care about the woman and it may just be an ego boost but he cares about you and that should have been the warning bells telling him to stop.:
My answers, no no no, it's never ok:
Sorry, I don't mean to derail the thread, but this just has me stumped. So you're telling me that despite my being ok with someone touching me in a particular way and giving them permission to do so before they did it, it's still assault. I'm sorry but that is just ridiculous. What is ok for me doesn't need to be ok for anyone else, and just because someone else may not be ok with it, doesn't make it assault if it happens to me and I am ok with it.:
It's just like the issue of porn. Mrs Nerd Burger stated that porn is not ok for her and she kicked her DH out for looking at it after she had their DS. You have said that you are ok with your DP looking at porn. Should you object to it simply because someone else may seem precious if they have a problem with it? No. This is no different. Just because someone else may not be ok with a certain behaviour, doesn't mean I should also not be ok with it. I am my own person and can decide what happens to my body.
I actually said if it was unwelcomed and uninvited. In your case it seems clear that it was not the case. And when I say that 'some parties are ok with it' I meant ok with someone touching them even if it was unwanted and uninvited, which wasn't the case with you. You have said you gave the person permission to touch you that way. You are in charge of your body and I certainly don't want to be in charge of it, so as long as it was all consentual. it wasn't what I was actually talking about.:
An example of what I was talking about, I have an uncle who used to be rather 'gropey' when he'd had a few drinks. His gropes were not invited, and not welcomed, but some of my cousins thought it wasn't that big a deal that he was doing against their wishes, and while they preferred for him not to do it, they didn't think it was worth saying anything about it.
I still see that as assault, even if they don't think it's a 'big enough deal' to actually do anything about it.
Is that clearer?
It doesn't have to mean the end of your marriage. Many relationships survive this, but only by addressing it head on and getting into really uncomfortable territory before getting to the other side. You will need to get your hands dirty.
I especially think you guys could be ok if you keep with your approach of being cautious. Cautious with your own reactions and not just losing your block. Breathe and think. You can't think if you're in panic-mode, which it doesn't sound like you're in.
You are doing really, really well, babe xx
This may not add anything. Whilst being black and white about where the line stands, my DH has female friends. He'll catch up with them for lunch or chat on FB but it's no different to him catching up with male friends. Except he doesn't talk constant sport with female friends.
We don't have a perfect relationship. We've hurt each other at times. Usually over misunderstandings. But nothing that would breach our trust. For us, there is a line.
I hope you can sort things out. Just because, for me, it would be an irreparable breach, doesn't mean that for someone else, they couldn't live with it. Your values and beliefs are your own.
Sushee, I think we were both misunderstanding what the other was saying. I definitely agree that the situation you referred to with the gropey uncle was assault. Just cause someone doesn't say "no", doesn't mean they are saying yes.
ladybird, I totally understand you wanting DH to see someone privately so that he can get everything out, rather than possibly keeping things bottled up so as not to cause you further hurt. Would it be possible for you each to see someone, and then come together for a joint session? That could be more effective than only seeing someone as a couple, or individually.
Oh that's bad :(
He's broken your trust and he's hurt you and it's up to him to fix this, if that's what you guys want.
Oh hun, I am so sorry you're going through this.
Like the others say, it's not ok, nor should you have to put up with this. The fact that the kids were mentioned in the pm's must be heart breaking for you.
I just wanted to give you big squishy :hug: and let you know I am here if you need anything, feel free to pm if you need to get anything off your chest!
PS - Are you still on fb??
xxx
I agree that it is wrong of your partner to have been chatting to this woman, in the way he was.
I think the thing which is concerning is that he did it behind your back. In secrecy. As well as knowing you don't like the person and continuing on with the relationship, and telling her things that are private about your relationship, despite it not being an 'in real life relationship' with her. He continued despite him admitting he knew it wasn't right to be doing it. He knew it would hurt you and did it anyway.
I think anything done in secrecy, which he would not have done in front of you is deceiving, disloyal and dishonest. Kind of cheating by omission; 'What she doesn't know won't hurt'.
I believe if something like this happens in a marriage there are unresolved issues. This relationship he's had with her has fulfilled some need in him which wasn't being met.
May I ask, is he still friends with her on FB? If he is that would be my first port of call, insisting that he defriend her, possibly even deactivate his FB for a while, whist you work on this issue.
I do think counselling of some sort is needed, whether it's you and him together, or each of you apart, and then working with each other in your own time on your marriage. Ideally, (if you can), I would suggest doing both, couples counselling and individual.
Good luck hun. I'm sorry this is happening, it must be truly suckiful! I hope things can be sorted out with you.
In my books, that's cheating, end of discussion.
Personally, I would want individual counselling and couples counselling, and I'd move hell and high water to organise for us to be able to do that - provided my DH was going to participate with dedication in the process, and as long as we both were willing to strive to recover the lost trust.
Without two dedicated parties - and an understanding of what boundaries, trusts and so forth were broken - this would in my opinion be futile.
I suspect I would also be expecting that he would need to cease all contact with the woman involved, after telling her not to contact him again, but I'm not positive ...
I don't have an issue whatsoever with my DH contacting women, being friends with them, catching up with them - my husband is a full time SAHD, and he goes to playgroup, has playdates, and whatever else - but it's all out in the open. He doesn't need my permission to meet up with one of them, or for them to come over or a trip to the park or the play centre, in the same way that I'll catch up with male and/or female friends for lunch / coffee / breakfast / a drink / a walk / etc. But it's in the diary, emails are sent to our home account, there's not covert communications.
As soon as there's secrecy, there's the question of why it's that way ...
I'm really sorry this is happening. I'm glad you've found out, and I hope he's man enough to do whatever it takes to earn your trust back, and to help you to feel as loved and special as you did before this happened.
I hope you're ok soon, even if you're not right now :hug:
So the drunk person asked the permission of every woman who's boobs he squeezed? Nothing in the original post led me to believe that he did, so to assume it's okay is assault.:
Not only is it not the topic, but it's completely incorrect. How can it be sexual assault if all parties involved were OK with it.
Not ok in any way shape or form. But that is my personal opinion and you need to put your own filters on the situation.
Nope not okay in my book for our relationship.
Anything he does that could possibly hurt you is not ok. He knew very well that if you found out about this you would be hurt. He knew it was wrong. He knew exactly what he was doing. The fact that it was hidden proves it.
If he's going to fix this, he needs to be honest & open about everything. He needs to put in the effort. He needs to regain your trust any way that you need him too.
I didn't specify either way in my post. That wasn't the point I was trying to make and that information was completely irrelevant to this discussion. You are making assumptions. The behaviour that night was not considered inappropriate by and no one was assaulted. I mentioned it to make the point that a certain behaviour that may not be acceptable for one couple, will be for another. It comes down to the couple and what they feel is or isn't OK. Getting back on topic, ladybird is (understandably) hurt and betrayed by her DH's behaviour which makes his behaviour totally not OK.:
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Soooo, I mentioned counselling yesterday (for me) to warm him to the idea of HIM going soon (DH is notorious for running away from problems). I said that I don't have the tools to overcome this, and that until I don't understand why he did this I don't think I ever will'. Then he started on the 'it was only a few times' line...which infuriated me inside (didn't show it on the exterior).
Reading your responses makes me wish I had a wiser vocabulary - I'm just not great at putting my words so succinctly!
In a text msg last night he said he wished we could just move on and that he learn from it! Although I was unable to reply to that due to work, I feel I need to respond (just to clear up, I saw him briefly after work last night but was so tired I didn't want to bring the topic up. What should I say to the effect of NO ;-)
I would understand it more if I ran him down, nagged him, was mean to him etc - but I have only ever been positive in dealing with his low views on himself. He always said he was scared of some guy trying to steal me from him due to his looks. Seems I was the one who should have been more concerned!
Nope not ok ladybird, I wouldn't have acted as calmly as you full stop. The things he is saying are a cop out. And these issues really need to be talked about, they can't be swept under the rug. The mistrust has now been planted, and if nothing is done it will grow into a massive problem. Hugs, and I hope you guys can work through this together.
Sent from HTC wildfire using TAPATALK, so forgive any spelling errors its a small keyboard.
i would need him to be shattered at his behaviour and feel like an absolute fool for what he had done (for this to come from him, not from me) to be able to see a strong future.
good on you for looking into counselling, it could be the trigger to fix things, and will help you to be strong to make decisions for you and your family.
I'm going to go against the grain here, of those saying you should remain calm and in control; and say that maybe you should be loosing it at him a little. It may give him a wake up call about how serious this actually is! Because from what you say, he really has no clue! It was cheating. Full stop. He should be grovelling for your forgiveness and bending over backwards to try and mend the situation, not downplaying the situation! He obviously doesn't understand the gravity of the situation, of what he is done; and you keeping your cool and keeping things inside doesn't show him how his actions actually impacted upon you. Not to mention that it isn't good for YOU to bottle up your emotions like that! It sounds like he needs a good tongue lashing, a meltdown and to shown just how much emotional termoil this has caused.:
:hug: I agree with Misty, I think it's ok to show him how much he has hurt you by losing it at him, it may be the only way he "gets it" :hug:
You're doing so well and I think your vocabulary is perfectly fine, believe me none of us would know the words to say if this happened to us, it's easier looking in from outside.
I think you should just tell him, not in a text but straight to his face:
"you really messed up and if you can't see that, you have a problem. I'm getting help from a counsellor because I'm a responsible adult who cares about doing this right. Whatever decisions you make about how you deal with this, you need to know it is serious and your choices will have consequences. My suggestion is, you get counselling as well. What you did is not normal and it isn't acceptable. I've lost faith in you. What are you going to do about it?"
Something like that. I'm not an expert, but you do need to express that it's really not OK.
I'm just trying to work out what it is you are meant to "learn" from this - other than the fact that he is a cheat who cannot be trusted.
He is trying to blame shift which just makes the whole thing worse and destined to be repeated.
:hugs: for you.
my x blamed me for his cheating, even though he couldn't keep his **** in his pants the whole time we were together, even when dating.
trust is something that if it is broken, is the end of the relationship and I will walk away
but you need to do what is best for you and your family, in the end what happens in your family is your own business and you will have to live with whatever decisions you make
Doesn't even sound like he knows what he's supposed to be 'learning' :rolleyes: How to not get caught, perhaps? He needs to take a much harder look at himself and to why this happened in the first place. He needs to talk to you about it because you are the biggest stakeholder.
You guys need a third party. When you started this thread you wanted to believe him, you wanted to know what to think from other people. Now you're acting on what's inside you and it's bringing up important things - you guys need to navigate this together if you're not inclined to give him the boot and if he's inclined to stick around.
You don't deserve this, by a long shot. Get angry if you need to, cry if you need to, let him have it if you need to.
Do what you need to do xxx
What Cat said.
There is no "friendly" flirting. If you are both single, it's fine. If either or both are in a relationship (committed or otherwise*) then it's wrong.
And, can I just say how much I dislike women who will actively make a play for another woman's husband/partner/boyfriend/fiance just because they can.
* I say "committeed or otherwise" as I was once the person who didn't realise that my partner had moved on.... pity the narky soandso forgot to tell me about it first.
I agree with Misty. If he's not going to do everything to fix this, are you willing to stay? If not, he needs to know. It sounds like he has no idea how serious this is to you.
My ex also blames me for his cheating while we were together. Alot of it was just texting. If I'd known about it, that would've been enough for me to walk away (the relationship wasn't worth saving).
If he doesn't see how hurt you are, he won't think its a big deal & he might just do it again. If he thinks he's risking his whole life, it might scare him enough for him to really wake up.
:hug: I had so many times I forgave my ex for little things like this. He made all the promises in the world, but never followed through.
Just as I expected, the only sense I can get from him is "there was nothing in it". The defensiveness is coming out as I suspected would happen and I'm blowing it out of proportion.
I couldn't bare to split with him purely because of this alone, but right now I feel like I wanna just run away for awhile.
No, you're not. He needs to man up to this. I'm sorry, he did this & he has no right to down play your feelings. He's guilty, but doesn't like the feeling it gives him. So he's trying to justify it to himself, not just you.
Turn the tables on him. Ask how he'd feel if you'd done it to him.
Wow, I am really surprised at his response. Would he feel the same way if the tables had been turned and it was you who had been making plans with another man? Do you think he really doesn't get how much he has betrayed you? or that he is just trying to deflect the attention away form himself. Honestly, I would have kicked him out over that. I see it as a real breach of trust. I don't blame you at all for wanting to get away. :hug:
I think he knows I'm pretty hurt - I just don't think he believes he has done anything wrong...
if you wanna run away for abit then say so, tell him you need some space and he or you can go stay somewhere else.
It may help him to realise what he has done REALLY affected you.
doesnt matter is you are over reacting or not, its your reaction, your feelings. and he has to fix what he broke. NOT YOU FIX, he fix.
Hugs
Maybe show him this thread? Show him that your reaction is actually fairly lenient, compared to what other people would do given a similar situation. But also to show him what your real feeling are. I also think it might be a good thing if you lost it with him. Show him that you really have taken this VERY seriously and that his actions are not nothing. This situation isn't to be treated lightly. This is your relationship and your feelings he's playing with.
And if you can, get away. Be alone. Really take the time to meditate over it all. Think for yourself, without anyone else (him/children/family/friends) being part of it.
I think that if you were inclined to let loose on him, you would have done it already. Just be true to yourself, and if that means being cautious and not melting down at him, then keep doing that. As you said, he already knows he stuffed up, and no amount of yelling and crying is going to change the reasons he did it, or the fact that he doesn't seem ready to look into how to fix things.
Definitely get away if you can. Not to teach him a lesson, but to give yourself time and space to think about what you want and what you need from him that are non-negotiable.
Don't do things for his benefit, and that includes uncharacteristic displays of emotion.
I think you're still going about it very well, under the circumstances :hug:
Well 3LM - DH did read parts of the thread, he stumbled upon it rather than me pointing him to it (history setting on the laptop). And I feel relieved that he has read it TBH. It provoked conversation which helped me ascertain why he did what he did - because if he couldn't give me an answer it'd really bother me and kinda leave the door open for a repeat. I am still a bit dumbfounded by his actions!
Where to from here? A day at a time. He is quite aware if there is a next time that it'll be the last time. I stand solid on that one. Thats a non-negotiable, a promise I made and I stick to my promises.
Thank you all for your support, hugs, honesty, wisdom and patience! I really appreciate it!
xxx
Good luck
Are you still going to get counselling? I think it would still be beneficial for the both of you.
I am still unsure on that one. Now that I have somewhat of an explanation - which certainly doesn't negate his actions - I don't feel like I want to thrash out the details agai (well, at this point in time anyway - I'm leaving the door open to change my mind)!
:hug: