What happens to the sisterhood when you FF?

MR, I agree with so much of what you've said. That pure luck you were talking about. The lack of support and information out there for mums is simply astounding. I come to realise this more and more with every week, and it just breaks my heart. Mothers deserve better. We know that breastfeeding initiation rates in Australia are very high, mothers WANT to breastfeed their babies.......but the numbers drop off very quickly. This is mostly due to that lack of support, and knowledge, and I find that very distressing. It is not the fault of the mother!

I personally think that BB does a wonderful job of promoting breastfeeding as being the norm, and most members are very encouraging of those struggling :). I know that my experience would have been a lot different had it not been for BB. As someone who has BF and FF at the same time, for most of my baby's, well, babyhood, I know the trauma involved with opening that tin. Yes, I was bl00dy determined, and worked extremely hard to be able to continue breastfeeding in any way, but like MR some of it was just luck. If my MCHN had been less supportive, our paed, my family, any of those people telling me to just make the switch, it could easily have all been over.

TBH, I saw the comment referred to and thought 'OUCH'. But I'm sure it wasn't meant to hurt. PB, I hope you can go back to feeling comfortable around here and know that you have much support :hug:

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I'll start this by saying I have never FF but I have to admit, I think the comment made was completely thoughtless. It wasn't about the benefits of breastfeeding in a general sense at all, it was quoting a formula feeder and saying a part of breastfeeding that they never got to experience is the most wonderful thing. THAT HURTS. Even as a breastfeeding mother, I can see that that is hurtful. The person KNOWS they missed out, they don't need it shoved in their face.

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Thankyou Jitterbug, Responses that express effective listening, help to build understanding and compassion essential for some kind of meaningful interaction. Unfortunately some people have completely missed the point. Genuine attempts to help new mothers through the disorienting first few months have been abandoned in favor of unrellenting prejudice posed by some BF'ders. I know this is a gentle parenting forum which promotes BF'ding. However it doesn't make it ok to put down a new mother for using formula. And those who cannot BF, or choose not to, may feel inferior, perhaps believing that they are failing as mothers. Lecturing FF mums is unhelpful and possibly even cruel – especially as many women who feel under pressure to BF actually find that they cannot do it. To BF or not to BF should be a mother’s choice, and no one else’s. To bully pregnant women and new mothers into making 'the right choice' in the way that current BF promotion campaigns often do is to add to the burden of anxiety and guilt that new parents already have. Is that best for baby? I don't think so.
As for the baby milk companies - yes, they are powerful, and yes, they want to sell their products. But they are not brainwashing anybody: they are selling something that women clearly want and need. It is hard to see who benefits from the range of promotional restrictions and 'no platform' policies that are currently applied to these companies, and the official moves to tighten up these restrictions: including restricting the availability of formula milk on healthcare premises . Despite the tendency of some BF promotional literature to hype the magical qualities of BM and to expose the alleged dangers of formula, it should be remembered that formula milk is a safe and nutritious alternative to, or addition to, BM. FACT.
To argue that women are incapable of choosing to BF simply because of the existence of the alternative, is really patronising . If a mother is incapable of sticking with BF because they can see tubs of powder on TV or on the supermarket shelf, how are they ever to be considered capable of withstanding all the other pressures of parenting, or making other choices about feeding, and raising, their children?
But from the number of healthy people walking around who were FF as babies, and women's experience of FF'ding their babies today, it is quite clear that formula milk is not poison and FF'ing your baby does not amount to sending them to an early grave. Not that you'd know this from the culture perpetuated by some posters on this forum.
I accept Bf'ders and FF'ders alike, but not everyone is that open minded I guess?

This thread started because of a hurtful comment but it got me thinking about people who choose to ignore the dangers of hurtful comments in a world where PND is on the rise and where the claim to be "The Friendliest Online Forum" falls much below that standard.
Before some people jump down my throat and tell me to go elsewhere if I don't like it here, I'll say this.... Judging by both responses and PM's I have received I am certainly not the only one that feels compelled to comment on how judged they have felt for FF'ding. However, all the PM's I received said they did not want to post publicly for fear of retribution.... Something to think about...

BF is such a wonderful thing if it works. BF'ders are wonderful . There is a distinct difference between mothers who BF and mothers who also happen to be BF'ding but judge another mother for FF'ding. The latter don't interest me.
Finally,I don’t want to be part of a culture where I cannot express my own personal experience and offer open minded advice, only to be shot down.

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And I FF my first child (after many struggles), so I do know what it's like to feel the disappointment that goes along with not breastfeeding. At the end of the day own your choices, and allow others to feel happy in the choices they have made for themselves. Just because someone is happy about BF'ing doesn't mean they are attacking your, same for if someone doesn't like the idea of FF'ing.

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I absolutely adored breastfeeding so why on earth would I choose to FF over something that felt so nurturing and loving to me ??? I am ecstatic for anyone who BF but having your beautiful child fall asleep at your breast while you feed her, I mean it must be the most wonderful thing on earth and not something I chose not to experience? I wasn't hurt because Kelly had experienced that, that would be totally silly.

It made me feel like crap.

The saddest thing I have found for mum's who have 'failed' bfing their children need to justify why they cant :( and why they have had to use forumla as its not like they want to...the choice sometimes is taken away. Its hard and upsetting when we have tried and tried only to feel like a failure within ourselves, let alone have someone's words make us feel even worse about the situation.

Unfortunately a baby handbook doesnt pop out of the placenta at birth to let us know exactly how things should go. We have to feel our way through motherhood and do what helps, whats best for ourselves and our children.

PB - im really saddened that someone made you feel terrible :( Its an extremely sensitive time when your child isnt doing the 'norm' and it feel's like something is a miss. We all walk differnet path's but we're all heading in the same direction. Your doing a wonderful job as a mum, please dont doubt your ability. Forget about the post or poster, concentrate on the joy of motherhood is much more rewarding.
:hug:

PB - I understand you're hurting and you need support. There are a lot of people on this site who will support you. But attacking someone personally in public isn't acceptable hon. Regardless of who they are. It's not the way things are done on this site. Perhaps PM or email Kelly if you have an issue with something she has written - but not publicly. I'm not saying don't express your opinions or anything like that - just that personal attacks aren't very nice or accepted on this forum. Besides, you're better than that!

Remember, you are supported. There are heaps of people on this site ready to support you.

:hug: MG

PB i hope you stick around.

whilst there have been a couple of times when i've felt like i wasn't part of the sisterhood on BB (nothing nasty directed at me or anything, just posts overlooked etc) there have been many posts on this forum that have hit exactly the right spot for me they have helped me through a tough time. i hope that maybe one day, one of my posts can help do the same for someone else.

one day you may be able to help another mum who is facing a similar situation & it might be sharing your experience that helps them through. to me, that's a great reason for you to stay & i really hope you feel able to :hug:

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The saddest thing I have found for mum's who have 'failed' bfing their children need to justify why they cant :( and why they have had to use forumla as its not like they want to...the choice sometimes is taken away. Its hard and upsetting when we have tried and tried only to feel like a failure within ourselves, let alone have someone's words make us feel even worse about the situation.

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Perfectly said Maz.

The point that PB is trying to make with this thread, I believe, is not that FF or BF are better than each other. The fact is, a comment was made. And I'm sure it isn't the first comment that PB has been exposed to about the topic, if she's had an experience like mine. And sometimes you just reach breaking point. Whether the comments are intentional or not.

Inanna - from the sounds of it, PB didn't choose to FF. Sometimes bo'obs don't work. It's a physiological thing. My inability to BF both my babies after months of trying everything is witness to that. So to say that someone should be responsible and own their decision, when they had the decision taken away from them in the first place is a little harsh. Also, to use the analogy of a woman backing over her child in relation to the topic of this thread....?

PB - I am so sorry that you are so upset. When this forum started, I didn't realise how heated the debate can get. It is so unfortunate that there is an "us and them" mentality within some circles, as someone said previously. This will probably never go away. Just take comfort in the fact that your baby is now nourished. FULL STOP. Like I said, BF isn't much good when your baby is losing weight and you've tried everything....drugs, expressing, naturopath....the list goes on and on. But like Maz said, we shouldn't have to justify the fact that what is in our baby's bottle is formula rather than BM. Sure, some women choose to FF when they could have BF. The main point is, they choose to FEED. Only 20 years ago (not long at all in the grand scheme of things), it was common place to put cereal in bottles! Ahhhhh, we could go on forever. The different opinions don't end with feeding. Soon it will be discipline, dummy or not, toilet training. The list goes on. The fact is, you are hurting. And it does hurt. But take comfort in the fact that your baby loves you for loving her and that's all that matters x

Lovely comment sloane. So true.

:hug: pb.

I think MR puts it the best when she says you can support someone without actually agreeing with them 100%.

I feel terrible you don't feel supported in your decisions. That is really tough. It is also hard when you turn to a place like BB, often for some light reading or fun and come across a post by accident that is really hurtful. That has happened to me before on other topics...and it made me realise I had something I wasn't letting go of.

You're doing a great job, and only YOU know what is best for your child. I think BB can be a little overtly pro-Bfeeding at times because to be honest, society IRL is pretty non-supportive of Bfeeding, especially long term Bfeeding (and we only need to look at at Bfeeding stats to know FFeeders are actually in the majority).

:hug: Being a mum is so hard sometimes...especially when you feel unsupported.

Double post

MotherGoose, I really am not attacking just replying to any posters which were made in the public forum that's all. I actually really liked this site, but have noticed over the years this lack of sisterhood, when BF mothers need to use formula (or God forbid choose to use it !) Initially I tried to laugh off the whole thing about never having had the experience of DD settling on the breast, but it came back at me in such a way that when I read that I felt so....so....low. I don't expect anybody to agree with everything I said, but don't be mean, YKWIM?
Anyway I really have had enough of this forum being like this and the superiority expressed by some people towards others ( Really, again, not anyone in particular but the collective attitudes by certain people) expressing their hardnosed attitudes towards a mother who has made the decision to BF eg being told in the chat room that you are selfish because you are FF'ding, even though your journey which took you to that point was horrendous !) I don't think that should be acceptable. But it gets overlooked because this is a "gentle" parenting forum. Sorry but there is nothing gentle about that.

I guess I've just had enough and judging from the PM's and public posts, it's clear that I am not the only one who feels this. It's just that I am the on who has raised the topic that people are coming forward in how they feel. But it is evident that it is defnitely NOT because I posed this question that made people feel unsupported, those feeling were already there. Sure promote BF'ding because it is wonderful and beautiful and nurturing but don't push and push and push and then when it's not working push some more. That's not fair and only leads to feelings of "despair and resentment" and those are words I took from another member who felt like that.

Honestly thank you to those who have expressed their opinions with a level understanding which has in turn promoted meaningful conversation.
To anyone who feels like I am angry, hurt and that I wanted to feel like that....well then I guess all I can say is, if I said something hurtful to you on a public forum would you not feel....anything. I think "feeling" is what makes us human. Please don't de-humanise that.

Anna perhaps you are right, perhaps I haven't let go of the desperate yearning I had to BF my DD. That's why I need to leave and heal and go on living my life loving my daughter, rather than feeling like I need to hide my experience because I might be shot down. Thankyou to you all those who have been kind enough to acknowledge this journey.
Good luck to all mothers who choose to nurture their child the best way they can and the best way they know how whether it be Breast or Formula. I believe that every mother wants the best for her child not just the ones who choose to breast feed.

PS, NikiW, you have hit the nail on the head. Thankyou

Argh, PB, I gotta spread the love dammit! I just wanted to say :clap: you have said what ALOT of members have been thinking and just not saying. I like you have recieved NUMEROUS pm's about alot of issues/attitudes but no one says anything to stand up for themselves or their beliefs! Good on you for saying exactly what your feeling and why it has upset you. Imo, this isn't about 'how we individually perceive or interpret ones comments', because it's pretty clear that it's not just the OP who looked at it and went 'errrr incensitive'. Like I said hun, it's always going to be something that you do as a mother that people won't agree with. You just learn to form a thick skin

Only YOU can let someones post affect you......its your interpritation of what they have said and allow it to fester that will damage you.

In all honesty..this thread is starting to become like a ***** session......if you dont like what someone say's report them, PM them or be the bigger person and just simply turn the computer off and walk away

PB- hun, just for the record, i was one of those people who PM'ed you with support. It wasn't because I was afraid of retribution. It was because I wanted to give you the support I could see you needed, but I didn't want to publicly contribute to a thread that was effectively slandering someone who was not online to defend themselves, and probably not even aware such a discussion was taking place. Now pb I know that was not your intention. When I read you OP, i was not aware that it was a specific comment that upset you, it was someone else's post that alerted me to that. But that seems to be what this thread turned into.

I understand what was said was hurtful- like I said in my PM, that would have devastated me. But this would also devastate me- if I made a thoughtless comment, after a long and stressful day, (who can say they haven't done that?) that was interpreted the wrong way by a lot of people; then there is a public thread about how insensitve I've been, without me having a chance to explain myself. That would be quite hurtful as well.

Just my two cents. i think it's important to take everything everyone says online- no matter who they are- with a pebble-sized grain of salt. I hope you can find some peace with this pb- it almost seems like the person who is being hardest on you about ff is yourself. You did the right thing for you and your baby, deep down you know that- take it, own it, be proud of the mummy you are :hug:

im so sad to see that this thread has become more about mother AGAINST mother than mothers SUPPORTING mothers, were women, mothers and nuturers, lets leave it at that, go cuddle and love our kids no matter how we feed them, why not come up with ideas on how we can as a group help others, create more awareness about the lack of help many get when it comes to breastfeeding, why not try and make a difference even if its to just one other mum?

I sympathise with someone feeling attacked over something that has been said to upset them.

But starting a thread, bagging out a person for what they said and not dealing with this directly with the person involved - not cool. :(

OK here we go.

it was Me who said those "things" to KL, SO KL i apologise for not putting things elequently, as a BFer who FFed too i wanted to say that i put my bfing before my own feelings as providing the best for my child was more important to me! that was the point behind what was said. I have the grace of a brick! when it comes to the written word and making my self clear.

18 months has passed since then, KL is happy with her choices.

like what has been said many times on BB only the reader can interperet the posts made, how the reader on that particular day feels changes it to.. so posters can not be held accountable for others feelings. but are accountable to themselves and to provide factual information.

pretty butterfly - you know i am still bf-ing bilby, so i can't say i have been in your shoes with this one.

but i did feel similarly with
- having a emergency c-section when i had my heart set on a drug free homebirth
- the post c-section complications that stopped me using slings/carriers

both where things i felt passionately about (just like you wanted to bf)
both where things that ended up, decided for me, out of my control
i felt like a failure in both instances
and constantly reading about
- successful home, drug free waterbirth stories
- mums using slings.carriers all the time
really did get under my skin.
i'm sure i read plenty of comments, from people doing these things, extolling their virtures, that put "salt in my wound".
They weren't to know my individual circumstances
How hard to tried to make these things happen, but they didn't

I have had a "journey" with bf-ing.
It wasn't easy.
So when i talk to women about bf-ing, i try to slip in "i feel very fortunate that i was able to do it (product milk) and that bilby was able to breastfeed (able to suck)". cos i DON"T take it dfor granted, either that we would be able to do it, or that every other woman is able to do it.

i see it as an IDEAL.
(just like the water home birth, and the using baby slings, were ideals for me also).

mothering seems like a lucky dip to me.
i researched and aimed at different things.

some worked out
(using cloth nappies, breastfeeding)
both took time, effort and constant learning

some didn't work out
(natural birth, slings, EC-ing)
regardless of how much i researched, life intervened.

so i really hope, none of my pro-bf-ing comments have upset you hon, to me, bf-ing is something to AIM for, something to TRY, but it is not suitable for every baby, not suitable for every mum, not suitable for every family (support from your dh and relatives is very important, to make a go of it i think).

if something i said upset you, please PM me, i would like the chance to explain, make it better, apologise etc.

i still feel devastated that i didn't have the natural birth experience, so much emotion attached to these things, so i get why you are upset about wanting to bf and things not working out, to carry out that wish/plan/desire.

Breast may be best, but formula was invented for a reason.
BF-ing is not always possible, and in those cases, babies still need to survive.
Formula is a brilliant invention for those instances.
i have met some mums in this boat, for whom it took a long time to find a formula that their bub's stomache could handle, so it's not an easy alternative. I know a particular bub whose mum tried a Holle organic formula and that one her tummy could handle.

Whether you feed formula way or breast way, you need support.

i've been dissed plenty of times FOR breastfeeding bilby. Very upsetting. Been told, ever since she was 5 months old, "Why isn't she on FF"? even by medical professionals!!

so WHATEVER you do, support is needed.

it seems, as soon as you have a child, EVERYONE and their dog feels like they can force their opinon on you! it's really hard! especially to cope with those words, when you are tired, overwhelmed with looking after a baby etc.

but people who love you, people who count, will think before they speak, take the time to find out WHY you are doing what you are doing. The truth is, whatever you do for your child, you HAVE thought about to the nth degree, you know your own history. i know it's exhauting explaining that to all and sundry. Choose your battles. Only explain it to people that it's worth explaining to (not just one-offs who you will never see again).

your child
your body
your decision

if it's too painful to talk about it, think of a comeback to use, to brush them off, or just change topic. "This is what works for us". "We tried our best, and this is what we need to do". whatever works/suits you to say.

you only have SO MUCH emotional energy, conserve it for things that matter (like explaining the situation to someone you WILL have an ongoing r;ship with, who really needs to know).

thinking of you.

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I sympathise with someone feeling attacked over something that has been said to upset them.

But starting a thread, bagging out a person for what they said and not dealing with this directly with the person involved - not cool. :(

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:clap::clap:

Spot on.

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Despite the tendency of some BF promotional literature to hype the magical qualities of BM and to expose the alleged dangers of formula, it should be remembered that formula milk is a safe and nutritious alternative to, or addition to, BM. FACT.

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*watches the pendulum swing back & forth*

for a thread that was supposedly started about feeling unsupported and complaining about bullying... there's been a fair bit of bullying of those providing support for breastfeeding.. now to the point where it's being spouted that benefits of breastfeeding are only magical hype and any risks or dangers of formula feeding are only "alleged" because formula is as good as, if not better than breastmilk? :think: Why bother trying to breastfeed at all if this is FACT.

And I totally agree that if there are issues with what someone has said.. take it up privately. Mob mentality can get out of control very quickly. No one deserves to be tarred & feathered, whether there are higher expectations on them or not.

Wow!

I dont normally like to comment on these threads and its not because of the content, but I read the other thread and I think that this thread was totally unnescesary and should be closed.

In the other thread, the poster apologised for the misinterpretation and explained themselves and this thread slandering someone was still opened.

I really do agree that a PM is much better than a public slandering. Just my opinion of course but I am sure many would agree.

One of the main things that make FF mums feel like crap are when ppl say "formula feeding is dangerous and risky" Just stop and think about being told that how you feed your baby is risky and dengerous. It makes you feel like crap weather you have choosen it or had it forced apon you. Evey mum WANTS to do what is best for thier baby, I had no choice, Bella would have died. I get that it was out of my control and alot of other mums control - yep I get that breast is best. Many cant do that and when you already feel like a failure its a very very very hard thing to hear that they way you HAVE to feed your bub is dangeous and risky.

Kate

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Just stop and think about being told that how you feed your baby is risky and dengerous. It makes you feel like crap weather you have choosen it or had it forced apon you.

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I would feel the same as I do when people talk about the risks of immunising and I have my children immunised. I'm glad to know the risks that are involved. I'm not sticking my head in the sand about it and hoping no-one ever speaks of the risks of immunisations ever again.

PEOPLE!!!!!! FFS

The part of BB is titled

FORMULA FEEDING DISCUSSION SUPPORT

PLEASE consider that before you post..man. Motherhood is hard enough without having to justify yourself in a section especially made for the stated reason

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PEOPLE!!!!!! FFS

The part of BB is titled

FORMULA FEEDING DISCUSSION SUPPORT

PLEASE consider that before you post..man. Motherhood is hard enough without having to justify yourself in a section especially made for the stated reason

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Well said Maz.

I am going to close this thread as I have received numerous reports about it, but since I just found it this moment and read a few comments, I just wanted a chance to comment.

As I mentioned in the post of the specified thread, I had a very long, tiring and stressful day, both with the BB server and in my personal life in a big way, and I was trying to escape online and be positive, which failed dismally - I wasn't thinking straight but I did get online the next day and explain myself.

The feelings we create within ourselves, about anything in life, are our own self imposed feelings, our own reactions based on our past experiences and based on rules we set ourselves. Some people feel that they have failed when they choose formula. Some people are fine and know it's what the needed to do, water off a duck's back.

I have recently read a great book, 'Heal Your Wounds and Find Your True Self' by Lise Bourbeau and it talks about this. I take no offense to this thread because I know the poster has her own wounds (the way she feels) and the resulting behaviour, thoughts and actions are the 'mask' as they call it (which protects the wound that she feels). For those who feel like they have failed, at birth, breastfeeding or anything in life, I really recommend this book. I have been able to deal with my own and others emotions and feelings of failure, guilt, worthlessness, depression and all the rest that we hate living with. Who wants to keep going on in life feeling like this, carrying our wounds to the grave? I had an epidural once, I had a drip once. I tried formula before. But I don't feel like a failure. I did what I knew at the time.

All I can suggest from a practical level (for those who want to avoid it before it happens) is that if you have a goal for a normal, natural birth, or to breastfeed - then do your research and set yourself up for the best chance possible at that. For example, if you don't want a c/s, research says that you're 50% less likely to have a c/s with a doula and less likely if you homebirth. You are more likely to succeed at breastfeeding, less likely to have PND etc. It's up to you to choose options to give you the best chance at something important to you.

I believe BB provides a great platform for this and it's not about to change. It never will. It's empowering and educating where there is a major lack of it, in a time when doctors have more and more control over women and birth. It is challenging for some people what we talk about... but its amazing the life changing experiences some people have had as a result. The amount of times I have been thanked for being able to provide a platform to learn about certain things like doulas (loads of BB members have them now or are doulas themselves), vaginal breech birth or homebirth. Many people tell me they wouldn't have had or done these things without the help of BB, and are so grateful for the incredible experience they didn' t know existed before.

For those of you who weren't able to breastfeed for whatever reason, and they are all valid reasons, then you need to do something to help deal with the emotions it creates in you when you read these things or you will keep feeling negative, unsupported and like a faiure. The more you do this, it breeds more of the same, you attract more of it because you are hypervigilant to it. What you think about, you bring about. Your interpretations and what it creates in you is a result of an emotional wound not someone else's words. No matter what someone says to you in any walk of life, how you choose to react to it will effect your own feelings and emotional wellbeing. Yet it can be fixed and repaired so it never bothers you again... as the book says, you need to expose your wound for what it is - for example imagine a wound on your hand, wrapped up in a bandage... then when that bandage starts to come off, you need to stop pulling your wounded hand away and yelling that it hurts when someone tries to touch it - you need to allow it to be and retrain your thinking that this doesn't hurt and someone is just touching your hand.

Im sure I will make some people angry, especially those who are struggling to come to terms with how they feel and who have a brick wall up in defence. But think about the real reason you feel anger. I have not insulted, abused or flamed anyone in this or a previous thread. I have not been nasty or sworn at anyone or told anyone they are useless. Maybe inside you believe that, but I didnt tell you. Someone reacted to what I said and you just have to understand that we are all in control of our reactions and emotions and the sooner we realise that, the sooner we can be harmonious and comments will no longer effect us. Someone could tell me that babies who have had epidurals at birth have a shorter life span - well I wouldn't hate myself for it. I just didn't know, and I couldn't cope with the pain of the induction. In the same situation, I don't think I would have coped with the induction without an epidural even now. Personally I like my thoughts to be challenged, I like emotional growth and will never block the opportunity to do so.

People: We can choose to get angry and defensive or we can reflect and choose to prevent our ego from putting our mask up resulting in all these emotions and lashing out. Your choice.

Have a read of that book I suggested - it's life changing, especially if you are struggling with something in your life or an emotion that just keeps coming back up. Its empowering to have contol over that emotion.