Dannii Minogue transfers to hospital...

^ Absolutely! I saw the same segment (channel 9?) and was waving my arms at the TV 'correcting' the sound bites ;) I believe that 'up to 50%' of FIRST-TIME mothers having homebirths are transferred to hospital (he left out the important part of the statement!), which is perfectly understandable to me as a mum who is doing it all for the first time may decide during the birth that this wasn't what she expected and that she would feel more comfortable in a hospital; or simply that a first-time mother may have unforeseen complications arising during the labour that nobody can account for - whereas a woman who has one or more children already can usually be confident of a complication-free birth if she's done it before with no problems, kwim?
As for the '4 times more likely to die'... I'm sure there IS at least one study 'confirming' this statistic, just as there are many, many studies out there that would say the opposite! You can pick and choose your 'results' and 'statistics' to suit any agenda you want, of course an AMA crony is going to insist that homebirths are 'always dangerous' when many other experts will say that's just completely untrue ;) Too right about the mainstream media being full of sensationalist cr-p... it gets ratings and sells newspapers when the scaremongering level is at 'extreme' ;)

I thought Pesche was saying seven times more likely :) Very dodgy use of statistics. It's quite safe for low-risk pregnancies I have no idea bout transfer rates.

Here's a quote from community midwifery in WA (note that they do domino births at hospitals sometimes too, so the 75% figure may not actually mean that 25% were transferred).

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Since its inception in 1996, over 1,600 babies have been born on the CMP. During the last year over 75% of CMP births have occured in the woman's home. The vaginal birth rate for CMP women is high at 88% and caesarean rates are low; 12% including women with a previous caesarean section and 9% excluding those women. Over the last year, 54% of women who birthed vaginally did so in water.

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One more stat:

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•97% wished to use the service during further pregnancies - and of those that didn't most weren't planning more pregnancies!

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Nothing like talking to an ob, who by the very definition of the role has a conflict of interest, for a segment on HB. Kinda like going to an arms dealer to ask about the peace process, really. ;)

Its funny, I thought that the fact that she had planned a home birth would help to promote home birthing, but there seems to be a big interest in not letting that be the case.
I have been thinking about a home birth if I get pregnant again and I have to admit that when I heard the report it really scared me. When you see a doctor on TV basically saying that home birth is very dangerous you can't help but to feel afraid. I still think a home birth is right (and safer) for me but I can bet that a whole lot of mums who have been thinking about it will change their minds now.

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"there's no way i'd be pushing out my baby on the kitchen floor with no pain relief. This isn't Africa! We have wonderful hospitals and drugs for a reason"

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Oi to your friend! I had a baby on the floor without pain relief on the weekend! In Australia! In a hospital!

Anyone see the segment on Today Tonight? They presented a reasonably balanced argument surprisingly. Andrew Pesce even spoke a little sense at one point..WTF!

Really? Oh, maybe I shouldn't have turned it off then. As soon aas Andrew Pesce came on I changed the channel :rolleyes:

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Andrew Pesce even spoke a little sense at one point..WTF!

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:o

I thought the world wasn't supposed to end until 2012 :rofl:

LOL PZ!

Yeah he kinda summed it up as ultimatley it's the woman's choice but she needs to realise that in some cases a HB will not be possible and a hospital, necessary.

But of course we already knew that Mr Pesce....why is it that pro homebirthers are always perceived to be somewhat selfish. Danni Minogue's birth is what I would call a responsible homebirth not one gone bad!

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(I hope its OK if I post here)
I was just watching the news and they did a segment on Danni Minogue. They then cut to an Ob saying that if you give birth at home the baby is 4 times more likely to die. I've never heard that before.

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The study this was taken from defined a "homebirth" as any birth where the woman had planned a homebirth at 28 weeks gestation, even if they had later decided to have a hospital birth during their pregnancy. Which means that they included women who had been diagnosed with major complications and streamed back into the hospital system, in their homebirth statistics. I've never seen a study which classified hospital births as homebirths before! ;) It was a very poorly constructed study, but because it was Australian and the AMA and the RANZCOG were involved, they push it pretty heavily.

Anybody watch the 7pm report?
They were talking about it there as well, they had some bigwig Ob/Gyn on (someone with a better memory can fill in the gaps ;)) ; even I with my limited knowledge could see that it was only one side of the argument and I want to know, when is the media going to speak to someone for the pro-homebirth side of the debate?
Seriously, it's doing my head in, I cannot believe this is all we have heard so far! :wall:

The AMA created some study that manages to support their claims of increased neo-natal deaths and they like to quote it. It includes births without assistance though and I'm pretty sure all sorts of other unreliable information. As for the claim that 50% of first time mothers transfer in a HB- this was also mentioned in the senate enquiry and they asked for the reference which wasn't supplied. I'm not sure that it's base don any fact.

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...I want to know, when is the media going to speak to someone for the pro-homebirth side of the debate?

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Well, they probably *tried* to get a hold of Janet Fraser... she's about the only 'pro-homebirther' the mainstream media is interested in thanks to the awful tragedy that she experienced - ie, they want to talk to people like her because she fits nicely into their little pigeon-hole regarding 'alternative' choices like homebirthing. It's biased, and it's bleeding unfair. :(

The whole thing is a complete crock. I'm not wasting my time with it. My aunty told me that my Nanna called her tonight to discuss it as she was scared of my HB now. My aunty reminded her that she, my grandpa and all of their siblings were born at home ;)

I did watch it fleur, it was a complete one sided argument, I was fuming watching it!!

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it was a complete one sided argument,

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That's what I mean! not so much an argument... more a soapbox for the anti-hb's :rolleyes:

And, like I said, I don't know much about home birth, I can't quote figures etc... i know BellyBelly, is all.. but even if I wasn't on BB; blind freddie can see that it's all one sided, I would STILL want to hear BOTH sides of the story. And it's not being put out there..which I actually find really disturbing.

I heard Amanda Blair on the radio this afternoon (in SA) make all sorts of negative comments "I don't want to give birth when the kids are hanging around wanting to know when dinner will be ready or have my husband ask me to feed the dogs". Hmmmm, *rolling eyes & shaking head*.

Good on ya Danni - and welcome Ethan :-)

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I heard Amanda Blair on the radio this afternoon (in SA) make all sorts of negative comments "I don't want to give birth when the kids are hanging around wanting to know when dinner will be ready or have my husband ask me to feed the dogs".

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Because a midwife hanging around telling you you have 15 mins to get the baby out or an ob hassling you onto the syntocin or c-sect because it's getting close to his home time is SOOO much better.

I just replied to the 7pm project thread but this one seems more general and buzzing.
The media is sinking to new lows. It made me laugh to read that Today Tonight seemed to be the most balanced on this issue...doesn't say much for the rest of the media.

As far as 7pm project goes
No matter what the argument or which side you fall it is bad journalism to present a story by saying its controversial and proceed to present a very biased, one sided patronising piece.
Schmickers made the good point that its a comedy news show, but the truth is loads of people watch it as a palateble way of keeping up to date, and there are other shows doing the same one sided rubbish.
I hope they give a right of reply to someone who can point out that the "evidence" quoted by Mr "doctor-knows-best" RANZCOG is flawed and that the kind of home births that are mainstream in many developed countries (including the UK where the NHS supports homebirth), that is low risk, healthy women are actually supported by the evidence,
Aaarrggh!
I am ashamed to identify as a doctor after hearing such patronising views presented. In Ina Mays Spiritual Midwifery there is a doctor who decides that her MD stands for midwife in disguise. We're not MDs in AUstralia but I think thats me too. It is this issue that will be the other thing that sends me to NZ should we have an Abbott prime ministership. Its a scary prospect to practice obstetrics (the way it should be practiced) in this country at the moment.

Also there is something so very wrong with someone who thinks that kids would be asking for dinner or a partner asking about feeding the dogs, when a life changing, amazing event was happening in their family and their home. That might be a sad reflection of her relationships, or a poor attempt at humour.
So frustrating to portray something so beautiful in such a blah way.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr! What a stupid article!! I commented it and it made the list. Here it is:

Regardless of whether it is safer to birth at home or in a hospital, shouldn’t us women have the choice?! It is, after all, our bodies and our babies. What sort of backwards country do we live in?

I gave birth to my daughter under private care in a private hospital as that was my ‘choice’. Why can’t those who want to birth at home have the same freedom of choice?

Babies sadly die in hospitals too. All women take a risk giving birth, regardless of where it occurs. To call homebirths ‘silly’, ‘fashionable’ and a ‘fad’ is downright stupid. Women all over the globe have been doing it for years and will continue to do it for many years to come. I only hope Australia will grow up and allow women to decide where we have our babies.

Stupid articles like that make me so damn angry!!!

I am very much over the blinkered responses all over the show that tout the same "There is doctors at a hospital" as though that is some earth shattering argument that no one before them has ever thought of and home birthing mothers are too stupid to realise. Sometimes that is in and of itself the very heart of the problem with a hospital birth. They feel like they have to do something! They cannot just stand back and let it all happen and ONLY step in when it becomes appropriate. They do things that are not required for the safety of the mother or child but can create complications because of their impatience.

It just irks me how they sit there on their computers spouting their morally superior nonsense when truth be told, the extent of their knowledge and experience is having read that one article in the daily telelgraph.

And don't even get me started on how on the other hand, DT runs stories about the soaring cesarean rate...

Grrr.I have no words.I am so over reading this kind of thing.

A really great article about the safety of HBs. It dissects the flawed SA article the AMA like to keep pushing and shows better stats such as:

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Only 1,141 of these were planned homebirths and they were found to result in a similar overall rate of child deaths compared to planned hospital births (7.9 deaths per 1,000 planned homebirths compared to 8.2 deaths in planned hospital births).
For babies born at home the news is even more encouraging. There were only 2.5 deaths per 1,000 actual homebirths making homebirth 328% safer for babies than planned birth in hospital.

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Statistics

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Oi to your friend! I had a baby on the floor without pain relief on the weekend! In Australia! In a hospital!

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Just shows how uneducated people get so scared at letting your body do what's best. Way to go RE!

There is no difference between this transfer and a person being transferred from a small hospital to a larger hospital. Doctors do this all the time and it is not a problem. Yet if a homebirth transfers to hospital then it is, apparently, a failure and a good reason not to birth at home.

Aghhh!! Why can the media never present a balanced view of anything! This fiasco now has DH doubting our homebirth decision and I am not looking forward to trying to convince him again :wall:

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There is no difference between this transfer and a person being transferred from a small hospital to a larger hospital. Doctors do this all the time and it is not a problem. Yet if a homebirth transfers to hospital then it is, apparently, a failure and a good reason not to birth at home.

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That is an excellent point Alan, never thought about it like that.

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Aghhh!! Why can the media never present a balanced view of anything! This fiasco now has DH doubting our homebirth decision and I am not looking forward to trying to convince him again :wall:

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Give him that stats link I posted for starters- refutes the exact claims that are being touted at the moment. And tell him not to read rag-trade rubbish before making decisions.

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Give him that stats link I posted for starters- refutes the exact claims that are being touted at the moment. And tell him not to read rag-trade rubbish before making decisions.

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Lol, Thanks :)

Y'know, there's actually a story/investigative jounalism angle on how this whole issue has been and continues to be misrepresented to the general public in Australia. Surely some of these so called journalists are actually breaching their own code of ethics? I wonder which media outlet/programme will be brave enough to do the story on their colleagues?

Good point Kaz- maybe we should contact media watch too. The papers are just quoting the obs, but they're quoting incorrect information so it needs to be investigated.

what i find frustrating is that we just need ONE person to get on the media and explain that what happened in the Minogue case was an example of the effectiveness and safety of a homebirth. that the moment a qualified care provider (in this case the midwives) were able to assess that there needed to be a transfer that one was done. It could also be really helpful in mentioning that many HB midwives have 'planned homebirth transfer bookings' in place through major hospitals. (for example, i have a 'transfer booking' with the RWH here in melbourne...that way they know how i am and have all my pregnancy info on record if the need arises that i and/or bubs needs to transfer). I think the common misconception for those against HB is that women and families that choose to have baby at home are anti-hospital....because i for one am not. I believe that hospitals have a valuable role in the care of mothers and babies, but i dont for a minute believe that it is the best (or safest) place for a baby to be born in a normal birth scenario (this is why we chose to go HB...not because it is 'fashionable'...cause is it really?) Also, i guess the mainstream anti-HB representatives are all too keen to portray those of us that choose to have baby at home as 'ignorant' of the risks that can be part of pregnancy and childbirth. to me, that only highlights that they have NEVER actually been apart of a HB and seen the extensive, involved prenatal care that is provided by an IM. I had a private hospital birth with DD and I was informed of NOTHING regarding her position, her heartrate, my BP etc. The 10-20 minute appts with my OB didnt allow for any involved information or discussion of how i felt the pregnancy was progressing or how he felt it was progressing. BUT my 2 hour + appts with my midwife do. during the course of our appts i am able to properly synthesise any queries/concerns etc that i may have with the pregnancy, myself or bubs and TBH i have a MUCH better understanding of what is happening and going on and can feel a hell of a lot more confident of knowing if something is not feeling right.

But i guess until we get more people seeing more normal, non-managed births there will continue to be a fear of the 'unknown' as it challenges far too many preconceived notions of modern childbirth and obstetrics.

Ooright I finish my journalism degree next year....first thing on the list, write a positive article about homebirth LOL

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There is no difference between this transfer and a person being transferred from a small hospital to a larger hospital. Doctors do this all the time and it is not a problem. Yet if a homebirth transfers to hospital then it is, apparently, a failure and a good reason not to birth at home.

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Exactly Alan! I commented and used the example of 'no different to being a private patient in a private hospital that doesn't have emergency facilities, you would be t'ferred to a public hospital if it is an emergency/warranted.'

Sorry i dont have time to read all the replys but can someone tell me if its been released yet why she needed to transfer?

I hope she is still pro HB!

Congrats Dannii!

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Also there is something so very wrong with someone who thinks that kids would be asking for dinner or a partner asking about feeding the dogs, when a life changing, amazing event was happening in their family and their home. That might be a sad reflection of her relationships, or a poor attempt at humour.
So frustrating to portray something so beautiful in such a blah way.

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My thoughts exactly.

Seems to me like some of the homebirth opponents think it's all about squatting on the loungeroom or kitchen floor with no doctor or plans for emergencies, & hoping for the best.
When in reality it is the homebirthing mothers who are going to be among the most educated and aware. You don't decide to homebirth without a lot of thought & consideration - how can they not understand this?

The vice president of the NSW college of Midwives was invited to speak on ABC radio Sydney the other day. I was really impressed that they chose a professional actually experienced in HB to comment. There were some great calls - people who shared how valuable HB is, but there were a couple of nutjobs too of course. Here's what upsets me the most about some of the media's and some of the public's assertions about HB:
1. That IM's are somehow not medical professionals. (I think this has already been well-covered in this thread!)
2. The assertion that women who choose to birth at home are somehow selfish. Everyone is up in arms because they are putting their own 'silly' needs before that of their child. Besides being outright incorrect, I find this intensely hypocritical. Do we criticise mothers for choosing to have analgesia/epidurals during their labours? Not likely. We trust mothers to weigh up the risks of analgesia to their babies versus the benefit to themselves. And so we should! It's a woman's choice and I think that's very widely recognised. Why can we not allow mothers the same choice in where they birth?

We may never know why she transferred, and I guess it isn't anyone else's business.

If anything, stories like her's just renews my faith in the homebirthing process. That it does work. Transfers do happen from time to time. And no midwife is so gung-ho to see anyone have a homebirth that they won't transfer if the need arises. Just my thoughts.