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Should home births be banned? Debate with Susie O'Brien, 1pm
12:54
Welcome everyone
Well I know there are lots of passionate views on this one. I guess I am concerned about home birthing in light of the Government's decision not to give home birth midwives professional indemnity. The Govt review noted that this may lead to a rise in freebirthing, where women give birth at home without a registered midwife. We discussed this on radio MTR this morning and a few callers said they would actually choose this option. Amazing it seems to me.
Why put your baby's health at such risk?
Susie
1:02
[Comment From Watchman James ]
Hi Susie, isn't it hypocritical to support abortion in the name of women's rights - an act which definitely ends a child's life, but then say we should limit women's rights in choosing how to birth because there is a risk a child might get hurt?
1:02
Hey Watchman James
Not in my eyes.
1:02
[Comment From Dr. Jones]
Hello, Susie.
1:02
[Comment From Sticky]
There are several large well conducted studies which show there is no extra risk from home births in low risk pregnancies.
1:03
Yes but how do you know you are low risk? There is no guarantee. I was low risk but my baby nearly died. Thank god I wasn't home birthing.
1:03
[Comment From Charlotte]
Couldn't agree with you more Susie. I had an easy one then a very hard one and the rest have been easy (due to having to have a c-section) however I would not be here if I had not been giving birth in a hospital
1:03
[Comment From Sally]
Like you said in your article, Susie, young/fit/healthy women who have normal pregnancies can still be at risk. No pregnancy is "low-risk". They can all turn "high-risk" in the blink of an eye. I should know, I lost my first baby to stillbirth at 40 weeks 5 days almost two years ago. I support women's right to choose, but I just think homebirth is too dangerous because as good as we are not at getting better birth outcomes, there is still so little we know about the process and there is still so much that can go wrong. No one wants to go through what I have been through.
1:03
Thanks Sally and thanks for sharing your story with us. Good luck. I can't imagine what you have been through
1:04
[Comment From mum of many]
can you telle me why you think the government should have ANY say whatsoever in the way / place a woman births her baby? We live in a country where a woman can freely choose to abort her baby and cannot be prevented from doing so as it is "a violation of her right to choose" explain to me how it is not ridiculous to give a woman the right to end her baby's life and not give her the right to choose to give birth to that same child at home where she feels safe and is supported by a professional in natural birth?? The mistake here is not that home birth is legal, but that it is not easily available - the restrictions on midwives insurance are wrong and a direct violation of mother and babies rights.
1:04
Yes but given that there are restrictions, should we reconsider home birth as an option? Without midwives women will be too much at risk. adn the babies.
1:04
[Comment From lauredhel]
To clarify, Susie, are you not against homebirth with a suitably trained midwife in attendance? And do you believe that freebirth should be criminalised? (I can only assume "banned" means "criminalised".)
1:05
Actually I don't even support home birth with a trained midwife, but I more understand that choice. Freebirth should be criminalised - like people who don't immunise their kids without good reason/.
1:05
[Comment From Chrissy]
Some people don't have the 'choice' of hospital. For example me... 2 very quick labour and too far from a hospital to make it. What you have me do? Be induced at 38 weeks and suffer the same trauma that you and your son did, no thank you.
1:05
You are right to point out that the hosptial system is far from perfect
1:06
[Comment From Kelly]
I'm confused, are you concerned that women wont be able to sue midwives if they dont have insurance, or that women are being irresponsible in your eyes?
1:06
Both
1:06
[Comment From Michelle]
Hi Susie, I was one of those callers (from Ballarat) and I could have said a lot more if we had more time. For me I see the risk is birthing in hospital, babies die there too, so if we are calling for a ban to save babies die then let's ban unnecessary inductions (I was induced as I was 9 days overdue, no other reason) and also elective c-sections which are risky than normal vaginal birth - if we want to make this a police state then let's go the whole way, yes?
1:06
Hey Michelle thanks so much for calling. You are right that there is too much medical intervention in hospitals. I am pro a woman's right to choose but think thesafety of the baby should be key. Birthing units are a good way to go and we need more of them
1:07
[Comment From D]
instead of making homebirths illegal we should be lobbying to ensure independent midwives can have professional indemnity insurance. Some women are always going to opt for homebirthing, we need to make it as safe as possible.
1:07
But why are they choosing this option? What will happen now? The govt had the choice to do it and chose not to. end of story.
1:08
[Comment From Fran]
Hello, Susie. I am quite concerned about your state of Journalism. Do you think that some mothers have a choice about where they conceive their newborn? Some people can't help it if little Mario pops out so soon. I have been through this experience and let me tell you, its hard to get the stains out of the carpet. I propose that the Rudd Government gives every mother a Home Birth Kit. In this kit, there will be scissors, bandages, water, and some Preen oxy-action to clean up this bloody mess. What do you think Susie?
1:08
[Comment From DAnne]
Tell me Susie, what are you basing your view on other than your own anecdotal experience?
1:08
[Comment From Kelly]
Your baby became high risk when you induced it.
1:08
Unfortunately no choice there...
1:08
[Comment From Guest]
Your baby probably nearly died because of the early induction!
1:08
[Comment From Charlotte]
Sticky - sometimes you don't know until you are in labour that you are no longer low risk
1:08
[Comment From D]
your induction and forceps on a stuck head were what nearly killed your baby.
1:08
what's the alternative? Have him die inside me?
1:08
[Comment From Chrissy]
How do you know the same thing would have happened at home. Inductions don't happen at home firstly!!!
1:09
Look I am not pro unnecessary medical intervention. I am not for elective inductions.
1:09
[Comment From Jay]
hey Susie. Personally I woud think you would want the best facilities about just in case something went wrong. But as a male I know I have very little say in the matter lol
1:09
Actually as a Dad you should have a say./
1:09
[Comment From ish]
The thing is Suzie is it really the Governments place to legislate over women's bodies? Surely not and if women were being forced to have major surgery we should equally be jumping up and down no woman who chooses to homebirth does so without taking into consideration her and her babies wellbeing to suggest so is blatant disregard for the well informed choices she is making
1:10
Is it well informed? Would the mother of the baby in SA who died say the same? Or the birthing expert who went public about safety of home births and her baby died. Horrible, horrible experiences.
1:10
[Comment From Sticky]
They seem to be able to manage to assess low risk in the Netherlands and the UK OK.
1:10
Sure, pity we don't have a system like they do. But we don't .
1:11
[Comment From mum of many]
you say "not in your eyes" to it being not hypocritical to support abortion in the name of womens rights and not allow her to choose to birth where she feels safe... honestly how is it ok to directly kill a baby but not to birth her at home???
1:11
Because I believe in a woman's right to choose, not woman shoudl be forced to have a baby she doesn't want
1:11
[Comment From D]
Sally my heart breaks for you but regardless of home birth or hospital birth, sometimes babies will be stillborn. i work in a hospital and have tragically sometimes a baby cannot be saved no matter what we do
1:11
True
1:11
[Comment From Trudy]
Should all women who have quick births be admitted into hospital at say 37 weeks or so, just in case, wouldn't want them birthing at home or on the way to hospital?
1:12
of course sometimes things don't got to plan...
1:12
[Comment From Student Midwife]
Its about choice and control - without these two factors we are taking away basic human rights, are we not?
1:12
It's about the safety of the baby as well as the mother's rights.
1:12
[Comment From Rural Mum]
Susie please tell us your view on preventing c/s with no medical indication?
1:12
what does that mean?
1:12
[Comment From AF]
In the US where Private cover is a have to to go and have a baby in hospital alot of people get refused there for private cover for one reason or another, or can't afford it, those people often end up homebirthing because they have no choice. I know we aren't talking about that, but it will probably end up like that here.
1:13
yes and doulas are more common there too. non medical midwives.
1:13
[Comment From MLE]
Homebirth isn't about risks - it's about rights!
1:13
What about the rights of the baby?
1:13
Dan Prigg I am not printing your comment.
1:13
[Comment From Chrissy]
Susie you support births in birthing centres, why do you not support homebirths when there is nothing a homebirth midwife can't do at home that is done in a birth centre?
1:13
Birthing centres should be attached to hospitals like the one at Sunshine,
1:14
[Comment From Charlotte]
mum of many - I too am a mum of many. You can not just choose to abort your baby at 20 weeks (which is when if the baby does die they say you have had a stillbirth and the baby is registered as a birth and a death) there is a huge difference between aborting a fetus at 10 weeks and putting her 40 week old child at risk of being stillborn
1:14
yup
1:14
[Comment From Guest]
OK, so you think pregnant people who give birth at home should be jailed. How long for? And how will you decide whether they did it deliberately? A lot of people make basic preparations in case their birth happens very quickly. Will they all be separated from their nursing babies while in your Homebirthers' Jail?
1:14
I don';t think they should be jailed. But what if the coroner finds that the mother of baby was wrong to choose home birth because she didnt get the care she needed? What then? How do we stop dangerous decisions?
1:15
[Comment From mum of many]
no we should NOT reconsider home birth as an option. The restrictions are WRONG don't go making things worse just because the government made a collosall mistake.
1:15
[Comment From ish]
but isnt that opinion largely based on your own experience of childbirth
1:15
Yes and reading a lot of research. There aree stats both for and against.
1:15
[Comment From Mara]
I find it all very interesting how the media tend to discuss home birthing and the dangers. What's the research done on hospital deaths for both the mother and the baby - you will find that it is much higher. There are so many risks associated with hospital births - just as equally with home births. But the less intervention, then with a low risk mother, a home birth is just as safe - if not safer - than a hospital birth because the mother is in her space and power to birth at her pace, in the safety and love of her home.
1:15
[Comment From Tak]
If you think the Government's decision has anything to do with the safety of women and children you are sadly mistaken. I suggest you do a lot more research before you print such material. This is about power and control over women.
1:15
What about the rights of babies?
1:16
[Comment From Me]
why can't women have the choice? I had a high risk first baby, perfect birth second and for third was told I was high risk and had to birth in major hospital, we chose a homebirth at 34 weeks after looking into the pros and cons and was glad with our decision we had a midwife who brought everything with her and was just as professional as my hospital births, I would have had her in the car otherwise which I think is much more risky....
1:16
Sure, but what if you can't get a midwive like now - what then?
1:16
[Comment From Guest]
Isn't this an issue of having well trained mid-wives who can recognise danger signs and get pregnant mothers to a hospital if need be? If homebirths are made illegal then we increase the small risk that exists. If we set up a system for mid-wives to be properly qualified doesn't that allow women to have the right to choose how to give birth?
1:16
They should make safe decisions. Giving birth without a midwife is not safe.
1:16
[Comment From Dan Prigg]
Susie, really? All your points have no substance.
1:16
[Comment From AF]
I had one of my babies at home by accident, it was the best birth I have had. I support people who do homebirth and know alot who do, but would be hesitant to choose it myself if something went wrong. That being said, this is turning into a nanny state where we do not get any choices on how we do things, how we raise our kids, how we surf the net......sounds like it's edging towards communism.
1:17
[Comment From lauredhel]
And if it's all about risk, do you also support jailing people who choose unnecessary inductions and C sections? Hospital birth raises risk of injury to both mothers and babies, including major injury. ( cite
Hutton’s Ontario Homebirth/Hospital Birth Study ) Do you also support jailing pregnant people who smoke, drink coffee, don't eat quite right?
1:17
[Comment From Kelly]
I believe its vaccination not immunisation.... you are not pro-women's right to choose... unless it's anything based on your own experiences, clearly....
1:17
[Comment From mum of many]
Michelle i agree completely... if we are going to ban homebirth on the basis of it being dangerous then elective c sections, forced induction without medical reason and unnecessary interventions for the sake of "time" and "hospital policy" should also be banned as they are even MORE dangerous than HOME BIRTH.
1:17
I agree that there is too much medical intervention. there needs to be a middle ground that respects women's choices.
1:17
[Comment From ish]
Suzie are you away that birthing unit were shut down to be a part of hospital settings therefore removing yet another choice women had
1:18
I agree there is not enough birthing or women'centred spaces for women to give birth in. But home without midwife is not an option,
1:18
[Comment From Michelle]
There is no birth centre in Ballarat and our only midwife lead program has closed down, my only choice is 3 OB's who all have c-section rates of 50% or more, is that a safe choice for me?
1:18
Yes but you don;t have to have a c-section do you?
1:18
[Comment From Karen]
I'm offended that you seem to be implying that my plans for homebirth mean that I care more about myself than my baby. If I only cared about my comfort level, I'd go into hospital and have the drugs! I've looked at research and based on my medical history and current medical status during pregnancy, a homebirth with a midwife is best for my baby. I'm so sorry you had such an awful hospital birth - interesting how your pelvis was too small for a baby but big enough for forceps...
1:18
[Comment From Mara]
And how beautifully run is the birthing system in NZ - why can't we have a system like that. 80% of women are choosing a midwife in NZ - so what does that say in regards to what women prefer.
1:19
I agree that women want midwives - my column said that. I just don't think it needs to be done at home
1:19
[Comment From Guest]
I almost died after a hospital birth because the nurses didn't have the time to look after me properly, so does that make me irresponsible for putting myself in that situation
1:19
I am going to stop commenting and just put in a whole lot of your comments;
1:20
[Comment From D]
Women often are forced to choose homebirthing as the only means of having midwife lead care. I am a miwife in a birth centre and every month we turn away dozens of women because we are not big enough to accept them all. Let's lobby the government about that!
1:20
[Comment From Rural Mum]
So what about banning elective caesarean with no medical indication Susie? Babies are put at unecessary risk, a large percentage end up in NICU and Special Care as a direct result of the c/s with no need in the beginning, thoughts?
1:20
[Comment From Sally]
That is ridiculous to sugged her baby nearly died BECAUSE of induction
1:20
[Comment From Student Midwife]
And if you are no longer low risk your homebirth midwife should facilitate a transfer to hospital
1:20
[Comment From Mel]
Wow such a narrow mind
1:20
[Comment From Nikki]
i birthed in a hospital once. It has cost taxpayers thousands, both in hospital fees and charges, and in the psychiatric care that came with the post traumatic stress syndrome afterwards. My homebirth cost taxpayers nothing.
1:20
[Comment From ish]
A one size fits all rule doesnt suit all circumstances and the diversity of our society
1:20
[Comment From Charlotte]
Michelle - I have had "natural births" been induced and had elective c-section. I may appare to have not have needed to be induced or have a c-section however the worst labour I had was the "natural one" I was so scared about what was going happen and about what was going on.
1:20
[Comment From Simon]
Hi Susie. I have to say your article really, really annoyed myself, my wife, and many others I know.
1:20
[Comment From Simone]
Hello, I have been wanting to have a child for a long time. Due to my struggle of having no legs, I am unable to drive myself to the hosiptal to deliver the baby. What do you have to say to us legless people?
1:20
[Comment From lauredhel]
And do we criminalise the choice of an obstetrician who will lie to you? Cephalopelvic disproportion is an absolute contraindication to forceps delivery, and always has been. You _cannot_ delivery a baby with forceps when the pelvis is too small. Your doctor's lies put you in a terrible position, and I'm sorry that happened to you.
1:20
[Comment From Tak]
Oh and given your desire to see women's choices outlawed with regard to homebirth I gather you are also going to push for women who have elective csections to be charged given that it is KNOWN that they pose a much greater risk to women and babies???
1:20
[Comment From Sally]
My baby is the one who was stillborn and induction WOULD have saved her life. I was determined to do it naturally, and after a prolonged early labour for three days, she died from an infection.
1:20
[Comment From ish]
the thing is with that birth you also need to see that you were fed unnesscessary information in order to play the 'dead' baby scenerio
1:20
[Comment From alice]
whatever happened to informed choice? If I want to choose hombirth that is my choice not the governments as long as my choice is informed. And I would rather have a midwife there who knew about me then to go into hospital and have one who didn't
1:20
[Comment From mum of many]
the alternative susie would have been to let him grow till he was ready, not induce for no reason, and to move around and get into a more open and productive position for birth not laying on your back which is not helpful to the baby's progress and makes your pelvis smaller.
1:20
[Comment From lauredhel]
"Actually as a Dad you should have a say"?! Holy moly, guess we're returning to the days where men and the State have total ownership and dominion over women's bodies. This is chilling.
1:20
[Comment From Charlotte]
Kelly - that is a myth. After a certain amount of weeks it is actually less likely of risks if you induce then if you just wait and see. (38 weeks has a less chance of being still born then a 41 or 42 week baby) Also sometimes babies need to come out - say they are wrapped or not getting enough food
1:20
[Comment From Tak]
This is about women's bodies. Men dont get to tell women what to do with their bodies. Full stop.
1:21
[Comment From Simon]
Your birth would not have been considered a low risk birth to begin with due to the low weight
1:21
[Comment From Cherie]
I am offended at your comment that a woman would put her own needs before that of her unborn child by deciding to have a home birth. As a midwife and mother of 3 healthy children born at home, this decision was based on both my needs and that of my unborn babies. A woman is not going to risk the health of her unborn baby. Homebirths are safe for low risk women and this legislation is going to force woman who want there babies at home to not have the appropriate care of a trained midwife assisting.
1:21
[Comment From D]
Abortion was illegal, but women did it anyway and with disasterous consequences. If homebirth is illegal then the same thing will happen> Let's give midwives indemnity insurance so that homebirthing can remain SAFE
1:21
[Comment From Karlie]
So you want the government to FORCE me into hospital when I choose to birth at home? Where is my right to refusal? We have a right to refusal in ANY medical situation!
1:21
[Comment From Chrissy]
So you believe induction for intra uterine growth restriction IUGR was necessary? I would love to hear an independent, privately practicing midwife's take on that!!!!
1:21
[Comment From ish]
absolutely it is and have you spoken to the women in question which you mention to get their story or is your information their hearsay
1:21
[Comment From D]
And with people like you Susie we're never going to have a system like the Netherlands!
1:21
[Comment From Allie]
In fact the mother of the baby in SA, I happen to know, DOES still say the same. You have clearly not done your research at all, Susie!!
1:21
[Comment From Anon]
I don't understand why we are debating something that has been done to death - babies die in hospitals too... the major studies have shown (including a 500,000 woman strong study) that homebirth is as safe, if not safer than hospital birth for low risk women. So why try and get rid of it, instead of lobbying to make it better?
1:21
[Comment From Jay]
Susie I think we both know when it comes to things like weddings and pregnacy the male will talk and then we do it the females way ha ha
1:21
[Comment From Student Midwife]
The hormones in childbirth are so sensitive, if a woman is feeling in any way threatened or afraid the hormonal system driving normal childbirth is interrupted, and as such can change the way her birth unfolds. Women at home are more likely to feel comfortable and secure, which is why there are less interventions and problems in this environment. If there is a problem a transfer to hospital is not a problem - I witnessed this a few weeks ago - mum and baby were perfectly fine and happy in the end.
1:21
[Comment From Zee]
What is the difference between the system in Australia and that of the Netherlands?
1:21
[Comment From Mara]
A friend of the family gave birth in hospital and minutes after the baby was born, it died of an apparent "heart attack" and there was nothing the hospital staff or all the technical equipment could do for this baby. There's always risks. Babies will die and perhaps even mothers - but at least give women the dignity to at least choose where they want to birth.
1:21
[Comment From Alison]
Hi just joined, Suzie are you basing your opinions on solid evidence which compares death rates of babies born at home to babies born in hospital?
1:22
It's hard to get concrete data. There are studies that show low risk pregnancies at home are just as safe as hospital and studies that show home birth is more risky.
1:23
[Comment From ish]
that is just it though babies do die in hospital too look at the statistics
1:23
Yes that is unfortunately true
1:23
[Comment From NSW Mum]
Susie it is actually against international human rights conventions to prevent a woman from adequate health care or from making decisions around her health. Perhaps you should look into it. AUstralia is a signatory and it is known as CEDAW the Convention Against the Elimination of Discrimination Against Women
1:23
[Comment From alice]
but as a responsible journalist, do you not know have a responsibility to publish the other side, the good side of homebirths?
1:23
I am an opinion writer expressing my opinion. I would support Justine having a chance to put her views - home birthing association.
1:24
[Comment From Kelly]
I believe a woman should not be forced to have a baby in a place she does not want. Just as a woman will not birth well at home if she doesnt feel safe, same applies to hospitals.
1:24
[Comment From Nikki]
my plan was to stay as far away from hospital as possible
1:24
[Comment From Milly]
If it's about safety of babies then we need to ban late term abortions again?
1:24
[Comment From Chrissy]
Why is it automatically assumed that homebirthing mums don't have the safety of their baby at heart? Show me how you came to this conclusion or how society does please.
1:24
[Comment From Sally]
Yes well D, you don't know my whole story, and I laboured for three days at home and my baby could have been saved, with an induction or emerg c/s.
1:24
[Comment From Rural Mum]
Well elective c/s without medical indication hurts babies no if it is about babies let's ban that, yes?
1:24
[Comment From ish]
that is EXACTLY it safety of mother and baby and their rights....... It is NOT safe to throw women tot he wolves of our hospital system so they can control the outcome it is safe for mothers to feel safe there babies will too
1:24
[Comment From Allie]
I find it interesting that you didn't include any links to viable studies or statistical information in your article, Susie. You clearly didn't research your article.
1:24
[Comment From alice]
do you propose to close midwifery led birthing centres as well then?
1:25
no you are misrepresenting me.
1:25
[Comment From Guest]
If babies had rights more would be left alone to come out the way they are supposed to
1:25
[Comment From K]
I don't understand how your pelvis was diagnosed to be too small and then the doctors managed to get a couple of pairs of forceps in there, in addition to your baby's head and then pulled your baby out. Does that diagnosis seem logical to you?
1:25
[Comment From mum of many]
you think no one should be forced to have a baby she doesn't want? she could always give that child to someone who is desperate for a child but that is another issue altogether, but you would suggest forcing a woman to have a baby in a PLACE she doesn't want!!! rediculous... purely rediculous.
1:25
[Comment From ish]
A fact from your opinion piece here Susie is that midwives are professionals in normal birth please don't disregard their expertise
1:25
I don't. read my piece. I support midwives.
1:25
[Comment From Danielle]
You do realise Sunshine is doing a homebirth program????
1:25
[Comment From NSW Mum]
Sunshine also offers a homebirth service!!!
1:26
Good on them,. I don't agree with it.
1:26
[Comment From Sandy]
I agree with Chrissy, birth centre's also take time to transfer, can be 30 mins or so, how can you support a birth centre but not a home only 5 minutes from a hospital?
1:26
[Comment From Lisa]
There is more risk of a baby being stillborn in hospital.
1:26
[Comment From Kelly]
We're not doing this because we're standing up for our rights. We are educated and informed women. We are not stereotpical women of ANY sort, and even celebrities have had homebirths... because we are informing ourselves of the risks, benefits and making an informed choice. None of us want our babies to die, thats ridiculous...
1:26
[Comment From Chrissy]
Not all birthing centres are attached to hospitals. Actually the ones with the better outcomes lower mortality and morbidity and lower intervention rates, aren't attached to hospitals they are freestanding. So you only support birth centres run under the operation of Ob's and Dr's?
1:26
[Comment From student midwife]
Susie, there is actually no birthcenter at Sunshine
1:26
[Comment From ish]
how far do you think midwives would get if they staked claim over all the low risk births which OB's take care of, this is exactly the same as we are seeing in the opposite way
1:27
1.26 actually you may be right - it's a midwife-led birth program - same principle.
1:27
[Comment From Sticky]
There is no reason why we can't have a system similar to the UK or Netherlands or UK. The only thing stopping it is the campaign of misinformation being lead by the AMA and the Colleges.
1:27
[Comment From mum of many]
you care about the rights of the baby, but you support abortion? you are a walking (and typing) contradiction!!!
1:27
[Comment From Zee]
@AF: As a US citizen, I do not see that happening en masse. Only 1% of US births happen outside hospitals. By law, public hospitals cannot deny any person treatment, therefore it is not an issue of coverage to drives people to homebirth. I had insurance coverage and chose to pay to homebirth because I believed in the possibility that a hospital birth itself carries a unique set of risks I was uncomfortable accepting.
1:27
[Comment From Tak]
How do you stop women choosing an elective csection? That's been proven to be a dangerous decision!
1:27
I agree., I am against that too
1:27
[Comment From Mara]
Does the baby have the right to have forceps or vacuum stuck on its head because the induction is forcing the mother to birth too quickly and it gets stuck? Does it have the right to go through the trauma of induction, the drugs associated with epidurals etc which leaves it lethargic and literally druggy - and then has difficulty connecting to the mother after birth? Does it have the right to have full on contractions after induction squished around it's little body - get real here. Home birth - the baby doesn't have any of that. It has more rights than any hospital birth baby!
1:27
[Comment From lauredhel]
Susie: It appears that you haven't thought this through. You think homebirth and freebirth should be "banned", but you don't think anyone should be jailed. In what way do you want it banned? You have proposed an action in your debate - banning. Tell me what it means.
1:28
[Comment From D]
i think you are missing the point Susie. Most women who opt for homebirth are doing it FOR the safety of their baby. They don't want interventions that cand and do cause damage and trauma to their babies. They aren't trying to put their babies at risk Susie. you are so judgemental. And about something you dont know a whole lot about.
1:28
[Comment From Leesa]
Could you list some of the research you used?
1:28
[Comment From Kelly]
LOL are you talking about Pesce's piece of work.... what a joke that was.
1:28
[Comment From ish]
and so you are free to make your own choices for the wellbeing of your baby yet I am not because people like you dont agree with it
1:28
[Comment From Allie]
"Birthing centres led by midwives attached to hospitals are an excellent solution, which give women the control they want over birth." -- these are few and far between, Susie, and often the waiting lists mean women must sign up for them before even CONCEIVING their baby.
1:28
[Comment From zoe]
oh my gosh im so suprised at the comments on this topic. Im a midwife and also a WOMAN! Bet if i was a man this wouldnt even be a topic. everyone is making judgement and really it is the woman who has the right to choose, we as professionals need to support the right to birth wherever the woman wants to. Not tell her "no you cant". WE arent inventing something new, look at the morbidity and mortality rates in the UK and Netherlands on homebirth. Absolutely amazing!
1:28
[Comment From Nikki]
when babies birth, they should have right about where they birth also
1:28
[Comment From Lisa]
As I said, if babies had rights they would all choose to come out in their own time, without being drugged up
1:28
[Comment From Alison]
but you have never had, or wanted to have a home birth. you are speculating on the motivations and powerful forces that inform those choices
1:28
[Comment From Guest]
they are not babies until they are born....
1:28
[Comment From mc]
I see hospitals as much riskier than home . Your own story proves this. induction at 37 weeks was probably why your baby need medical attention.
1:29
[Comment From womens rights]
Susie, Thousands of women have horror stories about their previous hospital births. Do they not have the right to choose to birth at home? Or should they be forced to ensure another traumatic birth for fear of labelled as 'selfish' by misinformed women such as yourself?
1:29
[Comment From NSW Mum]
If you read the coroners findings from the SA case you cited on radio today you would know the baby does not have rights until outside the person who has created it
1:29
Yes but the baby was deemed to have been alive briefly so the coroner has jurisdiction
1:29
[Comment From Student Midwife]
What about NZ? Homebirths are perfectly legal there, midwives are paid to birth women wherever they choose. And you know their statistics are not dissimilar to Australia... that has to say something for home births supported by capable midwives???
1:29
[Comment From Oli]
What always offends me so much is the presumption I am happy to put my child at risk. Medical evidence supported my choice to homebirth. It was an informed choice. My hospital birth damaged and could have killed my son, even OBGYN's have confirmed what happened was dangerous and not evidence based care. When a hospital birth goes wrong, when a settlement is reached you know what the conditions are? Confidentiality. So you don't know how many go wrong. A homebirth has tragic outcomes - it's dragged through the press and every yahoo is suddenly an expert.
1:29
[Comment From ish]
for the safety of my babies not being cut out of me at 37weeks because they were considered 'big' I gave birth at home that is the rights of MY baby he wasn't unnessarily traumatised through a major operation to his mother and heaps of drugs in his system to suit an agenda of the OB who wanted to give me the ceaser
1:29
[Comment From Simon]
Would you stop with this 'the rights of babies' line? Women are not putting their babies at risk by having home births. Home births are only for low risk, are monitored throughout and are attended by at least 2 midwives.
1:29
[Comment From Leesa]
that is why we want access to qualified IMs
1:29
[Comment From Maureen]
We can never completely prevent dangerous decisions - all situations should be judged individually. It is proven home birth as safe - if someone chooses it being high risk then they will be accountable, you can't ban something that is generally safe.
1:29
[Comment From Sophie student midwife]
Where are your facts Susie??? No studies indicate that homebirth is unsafe!! The worst births I have ever seen have all been in a hospital!!!!
1:29
[Comment From zoe]
thats the point, there are well trained midwives who work with dr's and provide good care, there is no difference where we give it. If it was government based, we would be supported by the hospital and paid by the hospitals to support the women wherever the choose
1:30
[Comment From John Edwards]
We need to stop turning everything into "ban this, ban that" people complain we're becoming a nanny state but its because people turn to the SIMPLE solution without tackling it head on. People can choose how and where they give birth, nobody has the right to dictate whats "better"
1:30
[Comment From mc]
constructing babies rights over the rights of women is skating on very dangerous ground too.
1:30
[Comment From Charlotte]
sorry Me - the fact that you had a high risk birth and did not go somewhere where they could help you. (your midwife could have been there for you and only called the doctor in an absolute emergancy) makes me think that you are selfish and wanted what you wanted above the need for your child
1:30
[Comment From alice]
but this respecting womens choices!
1:30
[Comment From DAnne]
Your assertions are reckless and both historically and scientifically unsubstantiated. Privately deconstruct your own birth experience--90% of obstetrical births have no scientific foundation. Grieve and come back and write responsibly. For a long time I believed they saved me too
1:30
[Comment From Teni]
Like... giving midwives their rights back and letting them support labouring women?
1:30
[Comment From ish]
we are talking about women who birth with midwives bringing in women who birth unassisted without medical professionals there is just a way to try to argue your case of removing that valid choice from women
1:30
[Comment From Student Midwife]
So respecting womens choices means respecting their right and choice to give birth at home, does it not?
1:30
[Comment From Quester]
Susie, can you provide links or references to your research on the dangers of homebirh vs hospital? Have seen plenty supporting the other way.
1:30
[Comment From Simon]
To try to tie in homebirths with midwives and proper support and those doing it unassisted is ludicrous and is missing the point. By supporting these ridiculous government mandates you are only encouraging the practice. Home without a midwife IS dangerous, ABSOLUTELY. You should get no real argument there, but you're lumping all homebirthing into the same bucket.
1:30
[Comment From Guest]
I still don't understand why not? This happens routinely in the UK and other Eurpoean countries, without this kind of debate and without a whole bunch of negative stats to cloud the issue!
1:30
[Comment From Tak]
Homebirth without a midwife is not an option for YOU! Stop trying to make everyone else live by your "rules"!!
1:31
You can't honestly tell me women should give birht at home without a midwife?
1:31
[Comment From Me]
but the private midwife isn't going to put you or the baby at risk we had the option to go to hospital if need be, I prefer to have a midwife than no at all.... at least having the option, they are well trained too, they want to see a good outcome and not out to get the women who choose not to birth at home.
1:31
[Comment From Guest]
I cannot understand how you can keep banging on about a woman's right to choose but you don't think a woman should have the right to choose a home birth or a freebirth, or do you prefer to pick and choose what a woman can choose? Also, to Sally, I'm sad to read your loss, but I'm not sure how your stillbirth has anything to do with the home birthing issue - were you planning a homebirth, was your child stillborn as a result of home birth.
1:31
[Comment From Lisa]
Women should not be able to *choose* options that put their baby at risk. Home birth is not one of those options. Elective CS, induction, drugs are.
1:31
[Comment From Student Midwife]
Michelle, its a safe choice if you inform yourself thoroughly and are prepared to stand up for what you want and don't want in your labor.
1:32
[Comment From Charlotte]
lauredhel - women that smoke and drink alcohol should be jailed yes!
1:32
[Comment From Laura]
I think it's a real shame than women can not support the choices of other women. Pro choice is accepting another persons right to choose, whether you agree with that choice or not. Susie, why do you choose not to support but rather perpetuate misinformation put out there by a large part of the medical profession?
1:32
[Comment From D]
Good for you Karen. Well said.
1:32
sorry this is a bit slow, I think the number of comments is slowing things down. bear with me I am trying to get everyone's comments in.
1:32
[Comment From Jennifer]
I don't understand why there can't be home births. In the UK and Europe this is routine and there aren't overwhelming negative stats
1:32
[Comment From Guest]
If your baby wasn't induced and was allowed to come out when he was ready and not just because he was too "small", I wonder if he would have suffered the trauma?
1:32
[Comment From ish]
the fact remains though that regardless of if you yourself would consider birthing at home it isn't yours or anyone elses what a women does with her body
1:33
[Comment From AF]
With my 3rd I gave birth in the car in the garage. I had no choice. Then for the next, the Obgyn made sure I was induced early for the birth at the hospital. I believe that was entirely unneccessary, as that time I would certainly have made it to the hospital. Will they then make sure everyone who has a quick labour is induced early to prevent accidental homebirth?
1:33
[Comment From sharon]
don't have to have a c/s???? I didn't HAVE to have a c/s but I was forced to as the dr didn't want to risk his job.
1:33
[Comment From Zee]
Have you considered the possibility Susie that your LABOR was what caused your baby to be stuck, not your anatomy? Were you confined to bed? On medication? Being monitored by machines instead of people? Those are very real things that cause complications at hospital births, which would not be likely to happen at a homebirth.
1:33
[Comment From Oli]
I was given NO choice but a c-section if I wanted to birth in hospital. I presented Drs peer reviewed studies which showed it put me at a higher risk of death, and a higher risk of death for my child - but I was refused even an attempt to birth in hospital. Thus I stayed home and did it where all the evidence proved I was safe. What would you suggest for me???
1:33
[Comment From Watchman James]
Susie I don't think that most people advocating homebrith are saying they don't want midwives. The issue is taking away peoples choice by making it illegal as you are advocating. We need to regulate sure, but not stip away insurance righs and push homebirthing underground.
1:33
[Comment From Lisa]
Have you any idea of the effects that hormones have in labour? Have you any idea of the effect that place of birth have on these hormones
1:33
[Comment From mum of many]
birth at home is what's best for the BABY in MOST cases, how dare you suggest women choose this purely for a "hippy feel good time" or something??
1:33
[Comment From Mara]
Well when someone like me who had a beautiful and loving 6.5 hour home water birth and then a 2.5 hour home water birth with my second, there's no way I would be going into a sterile, technilogically based hospital with people i don't know or trust - unless of course there was an emergency, and most of the time, a private midwife can pick that up.
1:33
[Comment From Guest]
I am with you Suzie it is all about the safety of the child
1:33
[Comment From alice]
whta is better for mum AND bub, having the same midwife for all care or a different one for every appointment and three different ones during birth?
1:34
[Comment From ish]
All women are built with that mother instinct we nurture through pregnancy not one of us would do anything to risk our babies yet all too often we have people comparing homebirth with unassisted birthing to try to highlight an extreme where frankly it is about maybe educated decisions for our families much like many other aspects of society
1:34
[Comment From Oli]
Seems the overwhelming logic and sound opinions of your audience are coming too thick and fast for an anti homebirth possition to stand.
1:34
Yes you'd think that every woman in Australia had a home birth...
1:34
[Comment From Cath]
Susie, I am concerned with your flinging the term 'doula' around with regard to unassisted homebirth. There are very few doulas who will attend freebirths. And a doula is not a "non medical midwife" - a doula is not there to take the place of a midwife, the role of a doula is practical and emotional support. And I really think that before you make the comments you are making, you need to spend some time in the birthing environment - actually see what goes on at hospital and at home before you make your judgments.
1:34
[Comment From Samantha]
What about the rights of babies? I consider that my son had a right to be born without synthetic hormones subjecting him to excessive, prolonged contractions simply because I was 10 days beyond my 'due' date. I consider that my son had the right to not be poked in the head with an amnio hook because it was hospital policy. I consider that my son had the right not to be separated from me and dumped in a plastic box to cry alone at 1 day old because he was confused with another baby. Unfortunately, being in hospital he was not afforded any of those rights. My daughter was homeborn and enjoyed a gentle labour in her own time, no separation or intervention - as was her right. Nobody is more invested in the safety of her child than a birthing mother - wherever and however she may choose to birth.
1:35
I am againt unnecessary medical intervention. Should I repeat that? I think some of you ladies are too keen to put words in my mouth.
1:35
[Comment From Sticky]
From the Ontario study:
1:35
[Comment From Teni]
Babies can die no matter where they're born - shock horror, they even die before they're born for no reason sometimes (believe me on that one :-/ )
1:35
[Comment From Zee]
Birth is not a medical event until doctors get involved.
1:35
[Comment From Kelly]
You want to see risk of stillbirth week by week? Check out this study - 42 weeks is less than 38 actually.
https://www.bellybelly.com.au/forums...trimester.html
1:35
[Comment From Erika]
Suzie, what qualifications do you have to comment on birthing. You said at 1.16 'They should make safe decisions. Giving birth without a midwife is not safe.' Is it safe to comment if you have no medical training?
1:35
[Comment From Michelle]
Hi Susie, Michelle from Ballarat again. I know this is a HUGE subject, maybe you should get together with some home birthers and have a really good chat with them over a coffee and maybe all give each other a good listening ear?
1:36
[Comment From Charlotte]
mum of many are yous serious? Susie probably would have ended up with Tom being a still birth if she had done that. You do release that if a baby stops growing in the womb that it is likely they are in distress?
1:36
[Comment From Allie]
How is this a DEBATE if you are simply publishing reader comments and refusing to engage with them?????????
1:36
[Comment From Sticky]
From the Ontario study: "Midwives who were integrated into the health care system with good access to emergency services, consultation, and transfer of care provided care resulting in favorable outcomes for women planning both home or hospital births"
1:36
[Comment From Quester]
Susie You SAID you had solid research backing up your statements. Please stop wishy-washing like a pollie!
1:36
[Comment From ish]
I volunteer my time to support women and families after stillbirth and the majority of tiems I am called it is into a hospital setting but you see there is no coroners inquest, there is no blame laid
1:36
[Comment From Student Midwife]
Thats where you need appropriate research skills to critically analyse the studies to determine if they are skewed in any one direction or not - to help make a decision regarding how you weight the evidence,
1:36
[Comment From Tak]
If you can name one study suggesting that homebirth is dangerous that HASNT been widely critiqued and shown to be completely inadequate, I'd like to see it.
1:36
[Comment From Jennifer]
Surely making a mother as comfortable and secure as possible in her birth is likely to have a better outcome? What about those mothers who have very good reason to feel uncomfortable in hospitals or birth centres? Would you feel they should be forced to birth in that environment?
1:36
[Comment From mc]
Just like other anti-homebirth journos, you are basing your views on personal experience rather than research. ****ed off that you had traumatic experience (caused by an early induction that no hb mw would do) you should be angry at the medical system instead
1:36
[Comment From lauredhel]
Susie: There are also studies that show hospital birth is riskier - I already posted a link. You need to look at all of it, and then realise that women should be able to make their own choices without harassment or criminalisation. Check out CEDAW. As for rights of the baby - it's very simple. a baby is a legal person as soon as he or she is completely born. At that point, if medical intervention of any kind is required, it should be provided. This may make you uncomfortable, but it is the only way in which a "conflicting-rights" scenario can be reasonably resolved. The rights of a fetus do not override the rights of a pregnant person.
1:37
[Comment From Gav of NQ]
They tried prohibition in the 30s that did not work. Making home births illegal will drive birthing underground. Having experienced 3 wonderful homebirths, I highly recommend it. BUT I also tell people to research for themselves. It is a rediculous idea to make home births illegal.
1:37
[Comment From homebirtherandproud]
Where's the fun un that alice, much better to vilify women who choose home birth because they only care about themselves and their birth experience, not their babies. Why waste time on proper investigative journalism?
1:37
[Comment From Sticky]
All the recent well conducted studies of planned low risk home births show no extra risk. Where are the studies shwing an increased risk?
1:37
[Comment From Samantha]
And may I add that once you privilege baby's rights ahead of mothers' ( whether based on the inaccurated premise of homebirth being unsafe, or not) women become nothing more than foetal incubators. No thanks.
1:37
[Comment From Mara]
Here's a great survey re: hospital births in the USA:
Listening to Mothers II Survey Report PDF :: Childbirth Connection or this one
New Mothers Speak Out Report | Listening to Mothers :: Childbirth Connection - this is good start. Yes some of it is nearly 4 years old and it's in the US, however it's only getting worse and Australia are experiencing much the same things.
1:37
[Comment From alice]
if it is about the safety of babies, should we screen ALL parents should be screened then about thier suitability to be parents, and give licences to breed then? of course not
1:37
[Comment From Kelly]
Yes but thats out of the city
1:37
[Comment From Me]
haven't met a indepedent midwife yet who didn't have the mother and bay's interest at heart, I think they want whats best as well, and will send a mum to hospital if she thinks it is high risk...
1:37
[Comment From homebirther]
Susie, you would lied to. Your pelvis was not too small
1:37
[Comment From Danielle]
Hang on. So you don't have a problem with a hospital-run homebirth program?
1:37
now things are getting silly, A hospital-run home birth program? A contradiction in terms surely?
1:37
[Comment From Oli]
Why are only some comments being posted ?
1:38
I am posting every comment except one which was really horrible about another poster. Sorry it's so slow and that I am not responding much. I am trying to give everyone a voice.
1:38
[Comment From mum of many]
susie i would be VERY interested in your response to the MANY questions on if you STILL agree with the false so called "diagnosis" of a too small pelvis if they were able to shove HUGE forceps in there and drag your baby out THROUGH that "too small pelvis"
1:38
[Comment From ish]
can you not see by upholding your opinion as holier then than of those women who birth at home you are only serving to the Governments purpose of alienating women further
1:38
[Comment From homebirther]
Homebirth has been shown to be safer. Have you read the studies?
1:38
[Comment From Lisa]
It is ignorance that bothers home birthers most of all, even more than quoting of skewed data.
1:39
And yes I have read the studies. There is evidence to show home birth is just as safe for low risk women. But I question the notion of low risk? How do you really know? Why risk it?
1:39
[Comment From Michelle]
My home birthing friends include a psychologist, 2 teachers, a social worker, a dental therapist, a lawyer and so forth, all women who have chosen home birth purely on the academic research that supports it. No hippy "experience driven" women there at all.
1:39
[Comment From Tak]
Mum of Many - enough with the right to life crap already. Please.
1:39
[Comment From mc]
I don't think abortion has got anything to do with it mum of many
1:39
agreed
1:39
[Comment From Sally]
has anyone else out there actually lost a baby? because believe me, once you've held your dead child in your arms, after carrying them for nine long months, then return home from hopsital without them and bury them a few days later, you will realise just how far you will go to keep them safe. i support homebirth, but for me it has to be in a hospital - close to any medical support i may need.
1:39
No but I nearly did...
1:39
[Comment From alice]
considering the load already on hospitals, surely it would be better to direct low risk women to birth centres then major hospitals?
1:39
[Comment From Student Midwife]
This is such an emotional topic because most of us have experienced trauma one way or another - through hospital interventions or through home birth, or even with the thought of what could have gone wrong if at the moment when everything went downhill during our hospital births we had have been at home... if we can see through out emotion it is impossible to assess the 'what if's after labor has begun, because one thing follows another and is not mutually exclusive... thats why we have to assess the evidence based studies and draw conclusions - and lets not forget our friends in NZ who have a much higher incidence of home births with no worse outcomes than hospital births! That has to say something...
1:40
[Comment From Oli]
Few women honestly make the choice to have a c-section, typically they are pressured by OBGYN's and then it's classed as "elective". Very dishonest.
1:40
[Comment From Teni]
Look at it from another angle - Homebirthing with a low-risk pregnancy would also take the strain off the obstetricians who *have* to deal with the high-riskers. If the OBs are stretched so they can't help the people who actually do need their help, then they'll continue giving substandard care to both groups.
1:40
[Comment From mum of many]
i know you have a lot of comments and questions (due to the ridiculous nature of your article no doubt) but a REPEATED theme is that the stupid doctor had NO IDEA what he was talking about you pelvis clearly as the baby AND a HUGE instrument fitted in there just fine, this is a theme repeeated over and over and you seem to be unable (or perhaps unwilling?) to answer it.
1:40
Actually the doctor was a she and she is the expert on my body and my baby, not you. Sorry to get narky but I don't really like your tone.
1:40
[Comment From Simon]
Do you not see that your horrible birth story could well have been due to you being induced? That being drug forced through labour that your body was not ready for? That if it you had actually been able to be let have your baby normally that you would have birthed fine with no issue of being 'too small' to birth?
1:40
[Comment From Kelly]
Obstetricians are surgeons, they have bullied ad stomped their way into the (university trained) midwives domain of normal birth, this is why intervention is so high and births are going up poo creek... when pregnancy or birth becomes abnormal thats when the surgeon (Ob) should be called in and be on hand.... only then will we see major change... its like seeing an ear nose and throat specialist for a cold, seriously....
1:41
[Comment From lauredhel]
Susie, we're not debating what you're "against", we're debating what should be _banned_. You have called this a debate, but you're yet to put an actual proposition on the table. So let's have it - what EXACTLY should be "banned", and what does "banned" mean? This debate cannot be had in theoretical rhetoric - we're talking real life consequences here. Banning, State oversight, criminal records, fines, jail, what?
1:41
I just think women shouldn't have the right to give birth without proper medical help -whatever htat might mean . Especially without a registered midwife. Call me crazy!
1:41
[Comment From ish]
that is exactly right if these professionals could consult and practise independantly of one another only consulting if the need arose then why is this legislation needed as it stands right now all midwives would refer on if a client was outside their scope of practice. These laws prove to narrow a midwives scope of practice to suit those who have money to gain from doing do
1:41
[Comment From HBACer]
I am sorry to hear of your birth trauma Susie. I suffered from trauma due to hospital mismanagement. They told me my pelvis was too small too. They caused my son to have Erbs Palsy. But I went on and homebirthed with no complications.
1:42
thanks
1:42
[Comment From Jennifer]
How could you legistlate against this in any case - what about those women who accidentally birth at home (or in their backyards in the case of my friend)? I guarantee there will be more 'accidental' home births if you try!
1:42
That's different, surely?
1:42
[Comment From alice]
pregnancy and birth are not illnesses but natural processes, why should a natural process have to take place in a hospital?
1:42
[Comment From Charlotte]
I don't think a lot of you are reading what Susie actually wrote. She thinks midwifes are great, she thinks that birthing centres are good too. What she and plenty of people do not understand (myself included) is why put yourself and your baby at risk. If something happens there is no emergancy help. My children would not have a mother if I had not gotten to the hospital or had chosen to have a homebirth. The fact is I was a low risk and the whole labour went fine (I was induced due to other reasons) it was the after labour part where it got bad
1:42
Thanks Charlotte
1:42
[Comment From ish]
dont believe everything you see if the news papers
1:42
[Comment From Student Midwife]
The problem with birth centres in Australia is that they are only available to VERY low risk women - ie if your thyroid hormones are slightly outside of normal you are excluded... even though delivery suite is just down the hall (ie Gold Coast)...
1:42
[Comment From Lisa]
I had a friend who was induced and her baby did, simply because she was induced. Where is her inquest.
1:42
[Comment From ish]
an trace of electric pulse is not a sign of life
1:42
[Comment From Erika]
Why was my comment not shown?
1:43
Erika trust me I am not excluding anyone!
1:43
[Comment From HBACer]
have you watched The Business of Being Born?
1:43
[Comment From Sally]
that's the thing, healthy low risk pregnancies can become high risk very quickly....
1:43
[Comment From K]
I am an freebirther and I have birthed my daughters at home unassisted. There is no evidence to suggest that unassisted home birth is not safe. Thousands of years of evolution have ensured that birth is as safe as life gets. My step sister was still born in a hospital, should that mean that we should ban women from birthing in hospital?
1:43
[Comment From ish]
well said Simon
1:43
[Comment From HBACer]
please provide peer reviewed evidence to say "homebirths are more dangerous than hospitals:
1:44
Medical Journal of Australia
1:44
[Comment From Danielle]
I agree with DAnne.
1:44
[Comment From Student Midwife]
No, I'd not suggest it!!
1:44
[Comment From Jennifer]
I wouldn't take away your rigt to choose where you birthed your babies, Susie. I'm glad you felt comfortable in hospital. As you should. Why would you take away my right to birth comfortably, safely and supported at home.
1:44
[Comment From rll]
hi susie ive come in late again! i am with you on this 100% though.
1:44
[Comment From homebirtherandproud]
Freebirth isn't for me, but I support women's right to choose to birth where and with whom they wish.
1:44
But as long as it's safe
1:44
[Comment From zoe]
no with a trained midwife it is SAFE and with dr support from the hospital if needed
1:44
[Comment From Nikki]
if the govt wold give insurance to midwives, women wouldnt have to choose between freebirth and scalpel happy surgeons witha timeline and a god complex
1:44
[Comment From Charlotte]
People you do release that still births occur before the due date as well, and when you go in to give birth to your still birth baby they record that as a birth therefore of course the still birth rate is going to be higher in a hospital as that is where they tend to happen
1:44
[Comment From ish]
thats the thing women who choose to birth without midwives is a valid choice for them you dont know their history to judge but this is about women losing the right to be able to access a midwife
1:44
[Comment From Lee]
Don't know about banning but at 23 I was low risk which proved false - perhaps better education on the possible complications is the answer. i.e. disuasion...
1:44
[Comment From Allie]
Susie, people like you are the ones who make me want to jump ship to NZ or the Netherlands - your archaic and unsubstatiated opinions complete demoralise Australian women as idiots who don't know what they're doing... it makes me so frustrated!
1:45
[Comment From alice]
fair enough sally, homebirth is not for everyone, but it is for some and taking away that right to choose is wrong
Homebirth dangers debate with Susie O'Brien - full chat log
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