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Umm... my 12yo reads Dolly... she bought the latest issue with her pocket money last week :( her friends at school were giving her old copies anyhow... what could I do? I'm not happy about it BUT I flick through them and try to point out areas of concern... it's all you can do...
I have to say I think its wonderful that so many of you feel so passionately about this, and about what influences toys have on children. I wish I had more staying power!
Like you bath, I choose my battles wisely. I try more to explain things and explain what is ok and what's not iykwim. For example Paris has bratz she went on and on about getting bratz so we got them for her. Many people I know refuse to buy their children bratz because they are ****ty etc But we chose one that was more tasteful and we also had big chats about the clothing, and she agrees that the clothes that bratz wear aren't very nice on girls but its just a doll so its ok. And you know what she hardly plays with them and she's over them iykwim. Doesn't want every single thing possible of bratz. So at 5 she's passed a phase that with a battle could have been prolonged. Same went for the princess phase she was obsessed with princess from about 2-4 and we would often sit down and have chats about how girls are strong and how they don't need to be "rescued" by boys etc (one of the things I love about the barbie movies is that the girls are head strong LOL). But then her favourite princess was Belle who was very head strong and in the end was the rescuer ;) Now she's going through an alternative phase, and has totally ditched all girly things and prefers skulls and punkish gettup and we go with it. She knows what boundaries she has. For example I won't buy her tarten mini skirts unless she wears proper legging pants underneath and I won't buy some because to me they are too mini LOL! Same goes for the undergarments she doesn't own bras because as she agrees she doesn't have breasts yet. And I won't be buying them when she's 8 either. I think for me its about helping her to become active in choice, allowing her to see things for what they are rather than banning them altogether. We are big talkers and we discuss everything, from birth, to relationships, to fashion to everyday mundane stuff. I hope I'm doing the right thing, so far its proved to be good. We don't have tantrums over boundaries, nor does she try to sneak things or resent me for the choices we've made. I guess I just want to try and teach her to question things on her own rather than go with the crowd. And I'll do the same with Seth when the super hero phase starts which I'm sure it will. I've kind of gone on a tangent, but I hope I'm coming across well. I guess this is why the bottle thing doesn't phase me.
*hugs*
Cailin
Cailin, I refuse to buy Bratz because they are the ugliest dolls I have ever seen LOL (sorry, OT again - will stop now)
I grew up with my sis having dolls with bottles (milk and juice) and seeing only FF after toddlerdom - I breastfeed. When I was 2 I convinced my Dad chocice and chips was a proper meal - OK, he believed me, but I no longer do! As a teen I thought cloth nappies were the mankiest thing in the world... washing poo! DS is now a happy chappy in a cloth nappy. DS watches the grand prix, but also knows/is told about driving safely.
Please give women the right to have brains and develop from what they believed as a toddler/child/teen!
LOL, today we were walking down the baby aisle of the pharmacy warehouse place. We walk past the nappies and Jack points to them and says "for babies". Then we walk past the formula tins and he points and says "for cats"! I'm not quite sure where the for cats comes from, but I guess it shows your point Caro.:
This is when I'm very glad my daughter is a total tom boy and hates dolls (and dresses and skirts and princesses and fairies lol). That;s more about the type of dolls there are rather than a bottle thing, I honestly wouldn't be worried if she did like dolls and they came with a bottle. She sees me BF and it is normal to her.
She draws pictures of pythons and spiders and hugs a stuffed cobra in bed. I occaisonally attempt a fight with her about a nice dress or skirt someone has bought her and even try and bribe her to wear it, but she refuses.
She's chosen her own style, I have to admit I'm not very feminine or dress up, but she's been around enough women that do and her friends are all into that stuff, but she still chooses the things she likes which happen to be very non-girly.
So I honestly don't think that in the end that if little girls are exposed to bottle fed dolls that it's going to affect their feeding choices as adults. My daughter chooses her own uninfluenced style at 6 years old, and I'm sure as a mother that she will make her own choices about feeding her babies.
I'm pretty sure my dolls came with bottles but i also remember BFing them. I was the youngest so no baby brothers or sisters to see feeding and copy... Think a few aunties etc. that were around me BF and that's why.
I think, on the whole, i wouldn't necessarily buy DD a baby doll with all the accessories because i'd far rather teach her to sew and knit (as my mother taught me) and make her own things for her dollies. It has made a big difference to my choices with DD, being able to make EXACTLY what i want and not having to worry about getting to the shops to find it.
I kind of see how bottles could be seen as harmless or harmful but it depends on your lifestyle. I would NOT let my children play with guns. Possibly one of the brightly coloured super-soakers which bear almost zero resemblance to a gun, but CERTAINLY not anything handgun shaped, whatever it shot. I would only buy knives which came with one of those cooking play sets where the fruit/veggies are velcroed together and one uses the plastic kitchen knife to "chop" them, never a sword or a dagger or anything like that. When it comes to real knives i will do as my parents did - when she is 12 or 13 i will buy her a good quality swiss army camping knife and teach her how to use it responsibly. Respect for such things is important and i do think playing flippantly with them is kids changes how we see things.
I DO think it's important kids are exposed to BFing. I have a friend who's neice, aged 7, had NEVER heard of BFing. The first time i met her DD was with her daddy and i had my breastpump with me. I let her sit by me while i pumped a feed and put it in the fridge. I saw her again a few days later and this time i had DD with me. When i said i thought DD was hungry the little girl offered to get the pump for me - even having SEEN the milk coming out of my breasts she didn't graps that a baby didn't need a bottle!
I don't think it is in any way "too far" for a child to pretend-BF a doll even if its mouth does move. What's wrong with that? If BFing is a natural thing, what is "wrong" about a child playing at it? In countries where BFing is the norm (much of North Africa for instance) young girls left in charge of infants will latch them on to suck for comfort as soon as they have enough breasts for it to be possible.
Is it that, despite our feelings and statements to the contrary, we still see BFing as sexual and thus are offended by a child which is apparently sexualised?
Bec
Bec, I wouldn't like to see a child BF a baby just because I don't like the idea of anyone else BFing my baby - so to see a girl with no children letting a baby latch on just for comfort would make me upset; it isn't about sexuality, it's about mothering. BTW, I didn't know you could get dolls with moving mouths to feed! I guess they've changed since my sister had baby dolls. I'm more than happy to have children ask me about BFing; Niece was really interested in it the other day when she saw DS having a feed (although she's too young to articulate any complex questions).
No swords/daggers/guns... maybe I'm the only one who will be OK with swords/daggers. Not guns, but then boys whose parents don't let them have "violent" toys just use twigs or fingers to pretend at these toys. I was into LARPing from a young age so needed swords and daggers (wooden ones when young!). I have always respected knives. DH has a BB gun, I don't see anything wrong with owning something you take responsibility for, but then it's about responsibility with older children/teens and not young children.
I'll still force DS to play with swords as I want a LARPing buddy, I hate the fact I don't have any these days! (Partly joking!)
But would it upset you to see a child latch on a doll with moving mouth mecanism Ryn? If she is being that dolls mother?
When i had milk i'd have fed a relative or close friend's baby if they had to pop out and be happy for them to feed DD in the same circumstance. Would you rather see a baby screaming in distress? If the mother isn't available? I'm not sure i would.... Would it be offensive to see a child offer a dummy or a finger to a sibling to suck?
All i mean is that i don't see why a child feeding a doll is offensive, worrying, wrong, etc. no matter what kind of doll it is.
ETA - the knives thing is because GLasgow is the biggest knife-crime city in the UK and there ARE little kids of 8 and 9 turning up at school with daddy's flick-knife, so i want to ingrain an aversion early on.
Good point about knives, Bec - we live in a very English village (seriously, we could be in Midsummer Murders if we were a bit further north - though that's not exactly an advert for why children can be trusted with weapons!) so it doesn't really bother me from that angle.
It wouldn't bother me seeing a child BF a doll, espech as I wouldn't know about the moving mouth, but to see them do that to a baby would bother me. As for feeding, I'm the only person who feeds my baby. DH has tried to give DS a bottle (EBM and formula) but DS won't have it; then again, he wasn't like this in the early days but he now knows food doesn't come from Daddy. Even when hungry DS won't accept a bottle from Daddy, I need to calm him down with the breast before he'll even take a bottle from me if we try it. I wouldn't be keen on anyone else BFing my baby, but then I am quite posessive about some things. Of course I don't want to see a baby scream in distress, but that's why I rarely go anywhere without DS.
And I would be mad if someone offered DS a dummy as I hate those things! They're so often misused that I won't have it. Fingers... you don't get food from fingers so that's OK. You do get food from breasts so it's not; but then DS won't suckle at an empty breast, he screams and screams, so I guess that's part of the reason I wouldn't do it.
Wonder if the doll-feeding feels anything like a baby feeding? Does anyone know or want to do that experiment?
Caro was it you who felt a 3 year old with the moving mouth doll was too much? (sorry i'd read back but DD isn't that well and i'm doing this in fits and starts..)
Or was it someone else?
Bx
Ah, thanks for that, my brain is mush! LOL.
So do you feel it is too much pressure on a young child to emanate that? Or is it something else, sorry i feel like my vocabulary has shrivelled to 3 words! LOL. I'm just trying to find out what it is you don't like about the idea of a 3 year old emanating BFing, and why for Shannon, it's "out of line" of the doll's mouth moves?
Bec
when oscar imitates breastfeeding his 'baby' he always moves his own mouth and makes sucking noises. i don't have a problem with it and if the doll's mouth moved it wouldn't bother me that's what happens in real life.
As for feeding another baby or having my baby fed by someone else, it has never bothered me, i have fed my sister's babies and my girl friends when the need has arisen and my sister has fed mine. actually when i had a low supply we swapped babys hers was much older than mine and had a really good latch to help increase my supply. i would rather that than use artificial milk or bottle feed. ok that was probably OT ;)
this discussion has shown me alot about where people are at. thanks for everyones input.
beckles
But I think it all comes back to discussions we've had in the lead up to the BF enquiry that we all basically agreed that things need to be done to make BF the 'norm' and not the 'novelty' - why not make this a part of that movement? Why not try to stop bottles being sold with dolls? That's what the real issue is here and what I think Beckles was aiming at when she started the discussion - how can it possibly be seen as normal when there are other factors influencing choice?
It's true Sherie, and i can see how much difference toys make, even in my tiny family. DD is often carried in her carrier, even now she's 12kg i'd rather make a new wrap than use her buggy every day. Recently i bought her a soft-bodied baby doll (no bottle!) and the first thing she wanted was her baby tied on with her shawl (she can't talk very much but was watching me put the carrier on to take her out and stuffed the doll down her vest and patted it like i pat her and said "out, out" (i say "are we going out?" while i tie on the wrap)) because to her, aged 15 months, THAT is how babies get about. I hope to have more, so she can see me BFing and i can at least normalise it in my own family.
Bec
Sherie, I agre with you. That's part of the point I was trying to make in my first post. For most of us, we have had some bfing influence in our lives as kids, so the fact that dolls had bottles seems irrelevant to us. But there are so many others out there who don't have that experience - Bec's friend's niece sounds like a classic example. For those kids, it is just another part of bottlefeeding being portrayed as the norm. To truly change society so that bfing is portrayed as normal (and this isn't to say that bottle feeding isn't normal, just that bfing is also normal), then perhaps the way dolls are sold is one of the many things that needs to change. Maybe the dolls could come with a breast pump accessory LOL! But there are also many other things that need to change, don't get me started again!!
Hmmmm I don't see the bottle as the issue, I think it's the education children get from their parents that will sway the child.
Children imatating breastfeeding is cute and normal regardless of whether they lift their top or not, and regardless of how animated the doll is. My 2 and 4 yo's put a ball under her dress or shirt and pretends to be pregnant, They breastfeeds their "babies" and at times will give them a bottle (although usually they just get left sitting on the bottom of the toy box, because it's easier to BF), but ultimately they are imatating me.
My girls use washers and hankies as nappies and baby wrap as a sling, so cute.
I went to a party for a 6 yo boy in DD1 class at the time and the invitation stated that and I forget the actual wording but something like "While we appreciate and are extremely grateful to you if you bring a present along we ask that you respect our no violent toys policy please". I think that's great, that way people don't buy inappropriate toys and can't say they didn't know. I thought I might use their phrasing for my son's b'day party if I had one, one day. I don't condone violent toys,T.V, games and refuse to allow my children to play with them.
hehe - they haven't been here! (I'll qualify that with a 'yet' because I dunno how feeding the next bub is going to go heh).. but DS has had a total of 3 attempts at feeding from bottles in his life, and went straight to a sippy cup for drinks other than boobyjuice. He didn't take to the bottle that well, and well, I'm a lazy expresser, so never had anything to put in a bottle anyway! So all bottles are bundled up with the steriliser in a plastic bag and at the back of the cupboard (what a waste of money! LOL - the midwife at the hospital told me not to bother buying this stuff until I needed it.. ahh well.. ):
I reckon if I showed DS a bottle now, he wouldn't know what to do with it! He doesn't know what to do with a dummy either LOL - he chews on the handle!
ETA: I just remembered I was going to mention a bib that came in a pack of cheapo bibs.. it says 'tools of the trade' and has a pic of a nappy pin, a bottle, and a dummy. It'd be interesting to know how many people look at that bib and think the nappy pin is irrelevant.. and who looks at the bib and thinks the bottle & dummy are irrelevant (like me).
well for those who know me i probably don't have to say it but bottles are not a part of our life either, i do have a bottle in the house, though that fits onto the avent pump, i don't have a teat thingy though, it must have had one when i bought it 9 years ago but is long gone now i suppose.
it's funny, every time i post on bb oscar descides it feeding time, the big hulking boy he is now!
beckles
so true Caro.. bottles are a part of life.. for whatever reasons.. they may not exist in one household but they will be in another.. doesnt make anyone a less of a parent..
i too dread the day when i am given a gun/sword violent toy etc.. i just dont like them.. i hope that i have the strength to tell the gift giver that i dont believe in that kind of play .
Emily has a dolly with a bottle and it doesn't bother me in the slightest. She hasn't breastfed her dollies yet, but neither does she identify the bottle as containing any form of milk. She says and asks for water to be placed in there. She's allergic to dairy and doesn't drink an alternative milk. Once her little brother arrives, I imagine she will either take up breastfeeding her dollies, or fingers crossed might even come back to breastfeeding herself!
As for the weapons scenario - I think there's nothing wrong with a water pistol but how can you allow that and not a toy gun? It's very difficult isn't it?
It is hard Claire, my feelings on it are that I don't want realistic weapon toys. If he picks up a stick and plays swords.. I feel that's different to handing him a toy sword to play with.
I've also never seen a kid hold a water pistol and say bang bang your dead.. but I've seen it with toy guns, so I would think they inspire different kinds of play.
I tend to agree with Liz... and the Wiggles use this to good effect with captain Feathersword. Little boys can be like tiger cubs, they want to be able to test their strength etc but you can channel it in safe ways... and as always lots and lots of communication about the consequences of real fighting makes a difference.... although I was surprised to learn that children don't understand the concept of death until they are about 7 (I think that was the age)... slightly off topic... but interesting... anyone heard about that?
See I think thats where I am weird. I was very much a tom boy as a kid. I had guns, bows & arrows and I even used long paper rolls as light sabers. Whilst we don't have any guns Paris does have a plastic sword and Seth plays with it often. I can remember as a kid if we played "cops & robbers" or "cowboys and indians" no one ever wanted to be the bad guy they always wanted to be the policeman, or the cowboy, or the Jedi LMAO. Our imitation play was always to protect the good and save the people not massacre the innocent. I guess for me it was all part of being a kid, the whole good vs. evil thing. And whilst I never became a police officer (or a Jedi LMAO) I think I am very much against evil, and whilst I might not take out a sword and go and defend my village I do that with proactive support for the good things, and I stand up for my rights and I do think that some of my play helped me to want to do good. I guess you don't see kids pretending to write petitions against whaling or writing letters to the age to complain about how a woman is depicted in modern society.
I totally understand why people don't like it so please don't think I'm trying to change anyone's mind. Just trying to share my perspective ;)
*hugs*
Cailin
I'm not sure why, and i'll probably be shot down for saying it, but I don't like watching a child imitate breastfeeding with a doll. Can't even explain my reasons.
Having said that, I didn't enjoy breastfeeding at all, yet I still did it because I knew it was best for DD. I expressed sometimes and was quite happy to do that because it was still breast milk. There are so many people who use bottles to breast feed their babies expressed breast milk. Children don't really see a difference between formula and breast milk in a bottle, its more just a way to feed a baby with whatever is in it.
I loved playing with dolls and bottles as a child, as does my DD and I don't see a problem with it at all.
Cailin, you sound like a real "kick-@rse angel" darl LOL (can't remember the name of the song i quoted from... some 90's pop song that sticks in my head everytime I hear it...) Once again you raised some very good points :)
I agree with Cailin, we have swords in the house and toy guns, DS watches cartoon network and plays the games online and I suppose you could call them violent in so much as they are fighting but there is no blood. That is where I draw the line, he can watch movies with fighting, Star Wars, James Bond (not the new one) etc as long as there is no blood just bang - someone falls down IYKWIM? DD plays with her barbies (yes she has them - about 15) and then gets up and plays with the light sabres.
What i'm saying is although I totally respect (and even admire to a certain point) people not having violent toys in the house I have found that I want, for our family, to let the kids have a wide range of toys to choose from and good communication in the home as to what is real and what is make-believe.
The same goes for the OP. I am the youngest child in my family so I never saw anyone bf and I had bottles with my dolls and I can honestly say that when my children were born those memories didn't even enter my head!
everyone has certainly raised some very interesting thoughts in this thread.. its got me thinking.. maybe too much! lol
OMG Cailin, how grown up is she?? That's just the cutest thing!!:
I think Lucy will be more likely to imitate me anyway and although I won't encourage buying dolls with bottles, I think I'll avoid making an issue of it when she does get dolls with bottles.
Atm she's into feeding me with her spoon, so I think that's what the dolls are more likely to get!
:
DD is more into feeding her babies with a spoon aswell.. she often tells me to hurry up ( when i am giving DS his food in the high chair) because her babies are hungry too.. Its her turn! lol .. my 3 years old....VERY set in her ways !:lol:
:
We watched a DVD on human development (it was a BBC one, I'll dig out the title later) that showed children coming across a dead animal (think it was a rabbit) and their reactions. At about four they kind of knew it was dead, but didn't understand that death was final, absolute (not trying to open up a philosophical point about after-life, but YKWIM!). They still prodded it and asked why it wouldn't get up or open it's eyes, or when would it wake up? But they did understand death to a certain extent. It's then a question of a child's individual development as to when the concept really takes hold for them. Interestingly, before this age too, when children were asked to group things according to whether they were alive or not (as in a plant, a toy, a fish, other inanimate objects) there was a certain developmental point at which they understood that the plant was living, but the teddy was not. Before this, they'd put the plant in the 'not alive' category and the teddy or doll in the 'alive' category.
Sorry, completely off topic, but it was very interesting!
Well said Cailin, that's what I was trying to get at! I'd love it if DS decided to do battle with the forces of evil, it's what I used to do with my friends too.
Bath - Space's Avenging Angel. We were about a month into an angel-based campaign when it came out so I remember the whole blumming thing!
Back on breast/bottle - giving DS formula top-ups and the odd bit of solid food is the only way I get sleep. I am more than happy bottles exist! However, my background is such that when I was preggers the family bought me bottles and dummies as presents. The odd bottle of formula isn't going to kill DS and TBH I need more then 2-3 hours broken sleep at night. Bottles do have their place, but I do agree that supplying dolls with bottles isn't the greatest idea.
Liz, I hated all the cards with bib, dummy, bottle and nappy pin on! OK, DS had mild reflux (seems to have passed again now, praise God!) so bibs were needed, but otherwise all are a bit pointless. It's all velcro and poppers on nappies these days!
ETA - re: death, I recall my grandad died when I was 6; I certainly understood the concept.
o/t - when the last UK census was done (2001) there was a bit of a hoo haa about what the government was doing with all the ethnicity/race/denomonation responses. THat, combined with the geekish desire to see it recognised as a UK religion (which it now is!) meant many of us, myself among them, are marked down, under Faith, as Jedi. Want to join us Cai? ;)
I believe I saw in a magazine somewhere that she did? I just googled it and there's heaps about Angelina saying she lost weight after her baby's birth quickly because of breastfeeding. Heaps more stuff as well.:
I remember changing my doll's nappy without it having to actually wet the nappy tho. I had imagination ;)
I had a nappy rash doll, now I think about it... but it was pretty dumb, and the cream they provided never worked LOL. So I went back to just playing with her without the bottle.
yeah it had spots on it's bottom that went pinky/red when you gave her a drink, and you had to apply some lotion to get rid of it. LOL. You could see where the spots were all the time tho.. pretty dodgy. I spose it was good for it's day hehe.. talking nearly 30 years ago!
My dollies had cloth arses so i'd have been waiting a LONG time for them to pee. LOL. I always wanted a tiny tears then my friend got one and her mum was like "Yes, so when baby wets you must change the nappy, then wash and dry the nappy for baby" and didn't take kindly to the nappy going in the wash with normal clothes (we were about 7 or 8 at the time). Tiny tears stopped getting fed about 3 days later when drying little wet terry nappies got OLD. LOL
I liked the cloth ones better than the hard plastic ones - they're cuddly.
Bec
Probably coming in a bit late.
For me I see bottles as part of a bigger picture, just because many of us played with bottles as kids and then went on to breastfeed as adults does not mean that it did not have an effect on others. Also there are many things that affect us as children that we do not actually remember.
Even though I was breastfed, I did not see breastfeeding until I was an adult and then only rarely, I thought formula was normal. I played with baby dolls with bottles, mine was called Cry Baby Sue, she cried until you put a dummy in and she had a bottle that the milk would "disappear" when tipped. Had me fascinated. Anyway I chose to educate myself about, pregnancy, childbirth and looking after a baby. That included reading up about breastfeeding and realising how important it was. Now imagine if I had not educated myself?? The bottle I played with as a child was just the starting point to my early belief that babies were always fed with bottles.
I will just repeat it again, as parents we have a say in what our children play with and we may not always agree with other peoples reasons.
I don't have a problem with my kid playing with a doll and bottle. I played with one as a kid and I loved it. (I too had the one where you tip the bottle and the mil diappears) I was bottle fed as a baby becausue I was adopted, but now that I'm an adult I am educated enough to know about breastfeeding and it's benefits and I plan to breastfeed my baby. As long as you educate your kids I don't see a problem with kids bottle feeding a doll.