I agree Sush - I think these women should not be restricted from free access to AC and/or IVF - they may not have fertility issues but technically they are not able to conceive unassisted.:
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I agree Sush - I think these women should not be restricted from free access to AC and/or IVF - they may not have fertility issues but technically they are not able to conceive unassisted.:
Infertilty has a medical definition, and 'unexplained infertility' falls under this, as you all well know. If you have tried for a certain amount of time without successfully bearing a live baby, you can be classed as infertile for the purposes of Assisted Conception.
Please let's not argue the semantics.
Can we also please get back on topic now?
here here sushee!!!
definately not a choice- but sometimes the only option
I've had to sit and ponder a little before I answered, because I need to clarify my thoughts before I know how to explain them ;)
(Still can't guarantee that my dribble to follow will actually make any sense, either :p)
I'm a little on the fence, if there was an option for 'does it raise emotion' rather than insult, I could have perhaps answered a little better... I'll explain!!!
In general, I'm not insulted that otherwise fertile couples want to choose IVF to conceive - it really makes no difference to my situation & my life, so everybody live as they choose and use any resources available... good luck to you :)
To put my heart on the line though, it hurts like hell... so whilst I'm not insulted, the word I could use better to explain my feelings would be envious.
I think any of us who have been on the IVF road can answer differently - depending on where we're up to in our cycles.
We're about to start cycle #5 - 4 cycles of pure hell and we're still going back for more because the desire for a baby just completely outweighs anything else.
I'll use Brad & Angelina for an example - but for me it applies to any fertile couple who have succeeded using IVF when they haven't necessarily needed to....
1) I'm envious that it worked at all for them
2) I'm envious they were ALLOWED 2 embryos with no fertilty issues
3) I'm envious that both embryos took
4) I'm envious that they have a baby or babies in their arms when after more than 6 years we're still trekking on...
BUT - thats because at this point in time, I'm not there yet.
It hasn't worked for us yet, we had to fight like hell & be put through proven failed cycles before we were allowed the option of multiple transfers, and as of yet, we haven't had any embryos take to carry on and result in a baby for us :(
Its a raw question for any of us struggling and who have yet to gain results - and to answer without being bias (for me anyway) is impossible.
It hurts like hell that its so easy for others - That may not be the 'polite' or 'correct' thing to say, but its the truth.
We're putting our hearts on the line every day of our lives & someone says 'hhhmmm, here's an easier alternative' - And you know, its not... but in their case, it actually has been.... now THERE'S some irony huh?!!!
In saying all of that, its not so much insulting - if I had had all of my intended IVF cycles, was successful and had my babies in my arms, then I can't imagine this would effect me at all - but I'm not there yet, so it does.
This particular example with Brad & Angelina makes me smile... I actually started a thread about it when I read the report on the news headlines - It makes me smile because the journalist has obviously NO comprehension of what is involved in an IVF cycle.
To be under the dillusion that this is the easier alternative makes me smile at the ignorance... but good luck to anyone that is able to believe that.
Lucky them that this world has spared them this time round of this horrific struggle.
Not only is it a battle against your fertility & a struggle of the most powerful of desires to gain a child - but it is the ultimate test in your self worth, the ultimate test within a marriage or partnership, and most importantly the battle to maintain the health of your mind, your heart, your body... and ultimately your sanity.
I wish I too was spared enough in this lifetime to have that ignorance, but as it stands, its not to be :(
So my answer (although I've certainly gone the long way round to find it) is that I don't find it insulting - but I answered in the poll that yes it does - it is because it hurts enough, that for lack of a better word, at this point in time, yes I do find it insulting. (I appreciate that that statement may just not make any sense at all!)
Ask me again after my next cycle if I'm lucky enough to come out with a baby ;)
Odette - unexplained infertility is still infertility. we're not talking about people who have been trying for 12 months, 2 years, whatever, who go to the FS due to not being able to conceive on there own - we're talking about people who decide "hell, it's time for us to TTC, but we don't want to try on our own, we want to go through IVF cos we want twins" - there is a huge difference there!
you also wouldn't decide when you want to go back for your next kidlet that you're going to TTC, but you want twins again, so you're going to be referred to an FS straight away. there is a very different mentality for those that have tried themselves, and need referring for extra help, and those that just want to have their family a certain way...
fabo point babe......I wish those people who do the whole 'elective c/s' cause cause they just can would think about this. ;):
After reading some of the posts from you girls who have 'been there and done it' I jsut have to say -
I really do feel for you - this 'debate' has made me see things in a different light for you and can actually feel that it may not be insulting for some but hurtful and I think if I was in your situations..it would feel like someone would be rubbing salt into my wounds. Its painful enough when a healthy, normal woman gets her AF when she is trying, I can never in my wildest dreams imagine the torture a woman who goes through all the medical procedures only to have AF rear that dame ugly head of hers. My heart aches for you all who have been or are in this situation. I also take my hat of to those of you struggling with this on a day to day basis only to come on here and see some many woman talk happily about their babies.
so yes I can see that it can casue your emotions to get stired up that someone who can quiet obviously have children naturally can decided to go down the IVF tunnel.
At the risk of being terribly unpopular and probably insulting a lot of people, IVF isn't an actual "need" in any circumstance. IVF is for people (or a single person) who WANT a baby. It's not life threatening or even all that biologically important if people can conceive or not. In the wild an animal that can't conceive simply doesn't. The population of the species continues regardless (unless you're a panda, in which case IVF may be a need, but we're not talking about pandas).
So we're talking about desire, not need.
Hypothetically: I don't see any difference in someone seeking assistance in choosing to have one baby or twins (or more). It's a bit preachy to say that one person has a "right" to IVF while it's insulting for others to do the same.
Realistically: There's no guarantee that IVF will result in the birth of twins. It seems highly unlikely that a couple would bother with the trials and tribulations of IVF just for twins, but if that's what floats their boat and they have the loose change in the pockets to spend on IVF, whose business is it?
Personally, I could never consider IVF at all because I couldn't handle it and frankly I can't afford it. If you're willing and able to go through with it, more power to you. I would adopt, but Brangelina have done that already, so who knows ... why shouldn't they try out something new?
Please note: Hollybolly made an excellent point differentiating between an insult and something being highly emotional. I agree that this issue could be emotionally upsetting for couples going through IVF. I have a friend who completely dumped me after 15 years of friendship when I got pregnant and she didn't. I don't understand her reaction, but I acknowledge it. I sure as hell wasn't trying to insult her, but I clearly upset her.
Sushee - Thats a good point, and I could have worded my writing a little differently... Didnt mean to offend :redface::
You didn't offend, Danielle.
Now mod hat firmly OFF.
You're right, Kuraiza, infertilty isn't life-threatening, so by that definition it's not a need. But to compare an infertile couple who just wants a child, and have spent years trying to have a child, to someone who is otherwise fertile wanting IVF to have twins is like comparing surgery to reconstruct a burns victim's face with someone having breast augmentation because their boobs are one size too small. Now THAT, I do find quite insulting.
I find it very insulting and very sad. I have always been fortunate enough to conceive naturally 4 times, once with twins, unfortunately one of my twins died at 34wks. As much as I would love the experience of raising twins I would NEVER turn to IVF for this joy to happen.
I not think it's wrong at all.
Some times twins are made threw IVF with no Intention of it happening that way
and you can get 5 eggs put back in with a chance of none taking.
So If you want twins and you are doing IVF for the Sole purpose you just might get
only one baby. Not to Mention IVF is not Cheap and it is no stroll in the Park.
More like a trip on a roller coaster missing a few bolts.
I am doing IVF had cycles cancelled because of things. Had to do alot of things that
are not the nicest of things to do...
So if you want to go threw all that to have twins i say goodluck.
I once wanted A boob Job till i had a lump removed from my breast i now say i dont like pain that much.And any woman getting implants is Crazy But good luck to them. It's not for me after what i went threw.
So i guess who are we to judge as long as those babies are loved and well looked after then that is all that matters.
I haven't voted in the poll, because I don't feel comfortable with either of the two options available to me (who has not used IVF). This is partly due to the fact that I don't know enough about IVF resources in Australia.
If resources for IVF were plentiful (clinics, doctors, fertility specialists, nurses etc.) then I wouldn't be concerned if an infertile couple with that was fully informed of what was involved in IVF and the additional risks involved with a twin pregnancy (assuming they would even be granted permission to have more than a sigle embryo transferred) chose to take that path.
If resources are limited, then I don't think it would be fair on couples that were in need of assisted conception to be denied access to, or be put on a waiting list, for IVF, while couples that are able to conceive naturally are using those resources.
Perhaps if "elective" IVF couples were required to pay for their treatment themselves (no medicare support), the increased revenue could be spent on increasing resources, as well as put towards further study in the field, which could potentially benefit those that have a genuine need of IVF...
I voted i find it offensive, but to be honest maybe part of that is actually jealousy! I didnt want twins first time round but now that Im older and dont enjoy pregnancy (having had a few probs along the way but not needing ivf) I would like to be having twins this time - I would LOVE to be having twins this time!!!
If I had the $$$ then maybe I would consider it, but then what I know of the IVF process I would probably prefere to adopt, and once again and heres my reference to the Jolie-Pitts, if I did have that kind of money (and lived in a country where it was easier to do) I would be 'buying up' babies from around the world too!
I say 'buying up' because although I`m sure they go through the assesments, I believe that for them money and fame helps get things happening where and when you want it.
In regards to media gossip, which is all it is - "gossip", I read way back in Dec /Jan when it was first said that they were expecting again, that it was twins and Ange had been on a fertility drug due to the absence of her regular cycle, because of the stress she was under from her mothers death. To be honest, I`d think this is a more likely explanation, but tbh, we just dont know and whats it really all matter how they got pregnant. They have been blessed with 2 new healthy babies.
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OMG hun, if I was you, I would duck for cover as quickly as you can!!
I don't mean to be insulting to you at all either, but I think this is most perfectly an example of statements by someone who has absolutely no comprehension at all of IVF - and of the inability to conceive a child.
LUCKY, LUCKY YOU ;)
You have just clarified for me that my post made sense - that the ignorance of someone spared of this ideal would be bliss...
There's too many points there to prove wrong... and already my hands are shaking and the tears are streaming down my face....
I really need to hit 'submit reply' before I end up being banned as a member :(
I was naturally unable to conceive and had to turn to IVF and i have two views:
1. IVF should not be used by those who can naturally conceive or have no record of difficulty falling pregnant as it's taking away from the sole purpose of why the system is there to start with.
2. Embrace your god given ability to naturally conceive - if you can conceive naturally and have a partner to do so then enjoy that magic that the rest of us miss out on, doing a pregnancy test and seeing that your pregnant must be an amazing moment, for the rest of us we do a transfer and chemically could be pregnant but not physically so no pregancy sticks surprises for us folk.
Get back to the basics and stop trying to fast track everything people.
you're right - it's not a NEED to procreate - but it is a biological imperative. to constantly feel empty because you can't fulfil the desire can actually be enough to have people become suicidal. it is psychological as much as physical.:
if adoption were an option that were accessible a lot more of us would consider it. but get diagnosed with depression, you can be excluded from the list. slightly overweight, well that will cancel you out too. and dear god - don't have a parent over 40 - never gonna happen!! adoption isn't easy in Australia at all - it takes two years to even be approved to enter an adoption program - and some inter-country adoption programs are closed for several years. it's easy to be flippant when you're not living it.
but that's not really the point of this is it - it's whether people find it offensive for a fertile person to go through IVF JUST to have twins.... i have no issue at all with there being restrictions on accessing subsidised fertility treatment for this "desire"
What I find most insulting is the fact that the journalists responsible for spreading this rumour know so little about IVF that it really does seem a feasible and easy option for them to get the child/children they want.
The idea that IVF can be seen as the "easy way" to have a baby is laughable. Given the choice of having sex with my husband in order to conceive over what we went through... I sure as hell know what I'd choose any day!
Some of the highlights of my IVF journey - bleeding constantly for over three weeks, at times so heavily that I nearly needed to be hospitalised; squirting drugs up my nose that gave me constant headaches for two weeks that no pain killers would budge (just to add to it, it didn't even work!); daily injections for over three weeks; becoming so ill as a result of an IVF cycle that I spent a week in hospital and was unable to work for over a month... Easy? Sure! Excuse the sarcasm. That's just dealing with some of the physical impacts of IVF, not even touching on the emotional impacts of failed cycles, miscarriages, and the toll that daily blood tests while cycles are being monitored takes on a person.
If someone is mad enough to go through all of that without the need for it, then I think the only thing that can be said is that they are downright mad.
As I said earlier, the insulting part of it is that people understand so little of IVF that people in society seriously do view it as an easier option than having sex to conceive. It's hard physically, emotionally, mentally and financially. I'm insulted by the implication that what I went through to concieve this child was easy in comparison to someone being able to conceive the natural way.
Even from DH's point of view it can't have been easy. Dealing with an irrational, hormonal and exhausted wife would be hard in itself. Getting intimate with a plastic cup on demand... hell, I can see how that's easier than having sex with your wife! Watching your wife go through hell after egg collections and spending weeks not only working full time, but caring for me either at home or in hospital because I'm so incapacitated that I can barely get myself to the bathroom let alone cook and clean.
We do IVF because we are broken. Not because it's an easier option.
BW
You Go Girl...:
As woman we have the right to be mothers and take all means to do so NOT everybody is blessed with the fact they can fall by just looking at a Penis.
Does this mean that others like us dont deserve to be mothers.
Some people take being parents for granted
Some people take falling Preg For granted
I Just wish life was just that easy but i dont live in a bubble
IVF Gives us woman a chance to be so much more
Never judge some one till you have walked and lived in there shoes..