Is it selfish to want a big family if you aren't rich?

I am lucky that we are very financially stable. We worked hard to get to that position, moved countries in order to pay less tax. I don't think I am a materialistic person (Singapore definitely wasn't for me, as that is what it seems to be all about) and I, like everyone else, wants to give my children the best opportunity of a good stable future and the ability to experience extra curricular things....BUT just because we have the money, doesn't mean I just throw it around willy nilly and give them what they want when they want it. I want my kids to learn the value of money, that it's a necessity in life, but the world should not revolve around it. We still worked hard (well DH did the work, but I sacrifice too!) to get there, and I take care of the money we have. I don't think I want to have any more children....and wouldn't just do it because I can afford them. Life can change at the drop of a hat, so you have to be prepared for those things that life throws at you. I'm a big believer in a secret stash :)

People see money, in lots of different ways....one persons rich, could easily be another mans poor. I don't think you should go ahead and get pregnant if you can't afford shopping week to week, or if you're struggling to clothe the children you already have....but I wouldn't begrudge people that did do that, as long as they were happy to be doing it, and owned it as their conscious decision. Just because you WANT something, doesn't mean you should always get it.

I think "rich" "poor" and "large family" are all arbitrary statements :)
ive learned recently that between 70-90k a year is considered an average wage for alot of DH's, but before this I thought we were living quite well on 45k haha with me being a SAHM and hubby working 38 hours a week
I think you could be earning 100k a year and still be "poor"
Its not really just about what you earn, but how you manage your money, what kind of debt are you in etc etc

So is 45k a year too little for 2 kids? How about 3? This is a new wage we just got onto after having our second son for 7 months and surviving relatively comfortably on about 36k
I mean, again, you could be buying a house that is tiny, run down and unsuitable, or you could be buying a LARGE lavish house, or you could be renting a lovely house instead of buying a crappy one.. or on the worst case renting a crappy place lol
We are renting because we are unable to be passed for a loan at this point even if we wanted to.. not because we have a bad credit rating but simply because we dont earn enough to get a reasonable loan for a reasonable house. So we rent a nice place instead
We dont have EVERYTHING brand new.. Alot of our clothes are second hand (I use gumtree.com alot) But with kids clothes, especially so young, i dont really think it matters, besides the clothes are no different visually or quality wise to something new anyway :)
In saying that we also buy them new things fairly often on lay bys etc or for special occasions.

Shoes seems to be used alot here.. I buy one pair of expensive shoes for my 2, then A whole heap from kmart, cheap shoes stores, and second hand, there wardrobes are full of shoes haha

I understand as they get older the expenses will come rolling in, and they'll be eating us out of home etc etc.. But I think you can kind of roll with the punches here.. Being a SAHM is something I love doing, but if it came between them having food clothes and still being able to play sports, music, school fees, camps etc.. or me being at home with (a youngest?) I would definately choose to work :) but i mean, you can compromise and work part time to cover the costs so you can still spend alot of your time home with a little one.. and theres always the "talk" with DH about him getting better work so you can stay home longer..

I think everyone creates there own situations and how they deal with them. If you really want a big family.. and a serious about doing it maturely, then you will be able to create and manifest a way that works for you, with more money or less.. But when it comes down to it.. there are alot of things in life that we WANT rather then need.. it all depends what you prioritise i guess.. and who you prioritise.. put your kids first and you can sacrifice other things to pay for them :)

We dont go out to the movies because they are too young to anyway, but we are forever at the park (free) going for walks together (free) visiting relatives (free) plus they have two dogs as well that we spend alot of money taking proper care of

We also have a car, its not flash, its old, but its safe and large enough for three should we have another.
There is also a 67k a yr job DH has been thinking about, if I were to get pregnant I would probably have to talk to him about that for the JIC reasoning
So aparently we are on quite a low income or "poor" but as far as I know we're doing fine? All bills always paid, 2 kids two dogs, renting nice house, car, oh and my oldest gos to kindy as well and plays sport, swimming etc.. dogs, and we quite often spend as well.. the other day we got a new tv just from savings we have away.. we always make sure we have a fair amount of savings away for a rainy day also.

So what is a poor income? What is a poor lifestyle? If your saying only on centrelink and nothing else, I totally agree.. But I think a wage is what you make it..

I may fall again at some point.. We are finished with 2, but EVERY single contraception method wev tried has had some sort of horribe side affect.. Im allergic to CD's both latex and non.. Always forget the pill and it causes rashes breakouts and craziness. and the implant ones send me crazy and depressed.. We dont want to snip snip either of us just yet so we are just "being carefull" but I dont really know how long the luck will last there. So its only really in our control to an extent.. but of course enough so that if it mattered we could make a final decision.. If I hypothetically had a 3rd then say DH was earning 67k.. If that still wouldnt be enough to make the changes wed need should a 4th come along, then I guess one of us would just have to consider the knife *shudders*

Actually that is a really good point Kyra. We are on less than $40,000 annually. And yet we manage to save over $600 each month because we have no debt, so rich and poor are really subjective statements. No house either, we rent, but I'd rather be earning less than $30,000 a year and saving $600+ a month and have that waiting for when we are ready, than be earning $100,000 a year and be 'breaking even' each month but be paying off a home etc... So yes, great point.

I agree.. I think our values are often widely based on how we were raised as well.. You'll find alot of the people who just cannot live without private schools, heaps of extra curricular activities, buying big houses and needing lots of possesions were likely raised in fairly wealthy hmes themselves, or were taught that success is how you value your life. which isn't a bad value by any means! but those are the people who will be more likely to be sure they are making a mint before considering a large family, or just wont consider it if theyre not.

I totally agree 100% that not making a move to support your family is irresponsible and having lots of kids while not working or trying your best to provide for them is reckless and stupid.. I also agree that no matter how well planned out you cannot account for everything that could possibly happen (divorce, death etc) its all about what you do about it, rather then where you are..

I was raised out in the country on a farm with my parents sister and lots of animals, then when I was 10, DIVORCE happened and we went from I suppose upper middle class or quite wealthy to dirt poor..
Me and my sister ended up in a tiny unit no pets on a main road with our mum who worked her butt off just to get food on the table.
She didnt earn alot of money, but she did her best and provided for us. We had everything we needed and were happy :)

So I think theres a difference here between a dole mum who just doesnt care.. and a single mum who works hard but doesnt earn that much.. If your teaching your kids to appreciate what they have and the value of earning your money, if your feeding them, clothing them, getting them to school and taking care of them properly then its up to you how many you want. :) If you hate your situation when you have lots of kids and not much money.. tehn do something to earn more :)

anyway thats just my 2 cents lol this has turned out to be a very interesting topic for me :D

Very well said, Kyra. Our individual definitions of 'large family', 'rich' and 'poor' are going to be different each person you ask.
Me personally, I don't necessarily think it's 'selfish' to want lots of kids if you don't have a 'good' income, but I certainly wouldn't do it myself. I know most of us are generalising when putting forward scenarios in our posts, but there seems to be this divide between 'single child, wears label clothes and owns expensive gadgets' and 'buckets of kids in hand-me-downs but loved to bits' - where's the happy medium? DH and I always said that no matter whether we were earning $40k or $400k a year, 2 kids was the limit. I grew up in a middle class family, my parents bought a big(ish) house and my brother and I attended public school, wore Big W clothes (much to my disgust as a teenager, when my classmates and I became aware of labels and I got picked on for being 'pov') and went on holidays (ie, went to stay at my nanna's house in Bundaberg for Christmas). We didn't go without, but we sure weren't spoiled. DH, on the other hand, was raised by a single dad (and later, a stepmum who was only 14 years older than him) who never worked, they were dirt poor and to this day, he spits, 'Love doesn't count for s*** when you're eating tomato sauce sandwiches made with week-old bread. Love isn't enough when you go barefoot to school and bashed up by bigger kids because your old man's too useless to find enough money to buy you new ones when the soles fall off. Yeah, we had 'love' - I want my kids to have love AND money.'

And so we do. And what about us? *I* like stuff. *I* want things for myself and DH. I sacrifice a heck of a lot for my kids, I'm staying at home with them because I can (just!) afford to and I think it's what's best for our family. I like having decent clothes, takeaway dinners every now and then and I am always pestering DH to scrape a bit of extra money together so we can go away for a weekend without (or even with!) the kids. I think that my kids deserve all the things DH and I didn't get as kids, and hell, so do DH and I! We want a nice car, a nice wardrobe, nice furniture. Nothing fancy - there's no way we can afford pricey stuff on DH's below-average income. But I sure wouldn't consider having any more kids because it would mean that not only would the money have to be stretched further among the kids, it would mean DH and I miss out, and yes, I'm a selfish brat! ;)

I don't begrudge people having lots of kids, no matter their financial situation - I personally just want to stick to two kids so that my girls have the option of doing ballet or tennis or expensive extracurricular activities if they WANT to. Things I didn't have the chance to because while my parents could afford for me to do sport, it was always the really lame ones (ie, CHEAP ones). Poor DH would have loved to have a chance at something, ANYTHING as a kid but couldn't because he was lucky to have the rent paid every week.

So no, I don't think it's 'selfish' to want lots of kids, I just wouldn't do it myself, even if I was on plenty of money (because then there enters the question of 'you can AFFORD them, but do you have enough time to give them all the attention they need?'). I just feel bad for kids (and parents, because they miss out as well, not to mention the stress of struggling with finances!) who grow up in ANY size family, whether it's big or small, and money's tight. Like I said, that's got nothing to do with whether you have a 'big' family or not, that's about stability, opportunity, and what's important to YOU as a parent vs what's important to your KIDS - you may think hand-me-downs and yearly trips to a local caravan park are great, but do they? Not aiming that question at anybody here, just something that DH and I agree on - we want to be able to have our kids say, 'they *did* give us everything we needed, and most of what we wanted' when they're grown, instead of hating us for loving them to death but not being able to provide anything more than just the basics.

This is getting really interesting.
See my definition of 'having everything' is just being able to give the kids the opportunity to learn the violin AND the guitar AND hockey, whenever they seem to show the interest.To me, the ability to provide opportunity is 'everything.'
So I will honestly say that if I couldn't afford to pay for a few different activities each year, it would really bother me. Clothes, gadgets, they are certainly not important IMO, but nurturing passions, encouraging talent, that's just so important.

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This is getting really interesting.
See my definition of 'having everything' is just being able to give the kids the opportunity to learn the violin AND the guitar AND hockey, whenever they seem to show the interest.To me, the ability to provide opportunity is 'everything.'
So I will honestly say that if I couldn't afford to pay for a few different activities each year, it would really bother me. Clothes, gadgets, they are certainly not important IMO, but nurturing passions, encouraging talent, that's just so important.

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This is I think what is important for me.
For *me*, I would consider it selfish of us to have more children than we could afford to school to a standard that I find acceptable, to offer those extra and co-curricular activities, opportunities for travel and experience and a comfortable home.

I don't want to be at home forever (part of me hell yes! lol) so I will go back to work, but I also want to the girls to have the opportunities I had and then some. I do think it is important to sit down and work out what those things to YOU are, and then base how many children you can afford on that.

There are obviously things I think all parents should provide for their children - not fancy shoes, but SHOES, not fancy clothes, but CLOTHES when they need them.

But if public education and no violins is ok by you, and you can afford to 7 children living like that, then go for it. Not my personal choice though.

The other thing to consider I think is the cost of living in general - feeding, housing, utility costs, are all increasing, and will continue to do so. Can you afford to fill a people mover with petrol every week? Or can you afford to feed your children nutritious meals every week if you have 7? Even if they are going to public school and you aren't taking holiday's every year...

Do you need to travel to see family? Will having 5 kids prevent you form being able to? This is a consideration for us - all our family is in NZ and Melbourne. We travel to see them frequently, but I also travel alone to see them - can I travel with 4 kids alone on a plane, hell no. If I had 4 they would miss out, and that to *me* is selfish.


So yeah, I think it can be selfish to have kids if you aren't "rich" - but it will be totally subjective when you define what "rich" means to you and what you want to provide for your children.

uumm, some interesting points!!!

There is also the happy medium of having a large family, and being comfortable.... ;)

We have a very large house, a new large car, and can afford the after school stuff, petrol and decent food. Our kids go to a Catholic school. We can holiday on the GC whenever we want, Ads parents own a holiday house.

Yes, theres not alot left over, so I guess thats "poor"? dunno... they arent going without, but theres not a million in the bank, esp at big times like chrissy...

I couldnt afford some pressies last week, but after chrissy, when Ad gets paid again, we'll be back to normal... so i guess not having back up money at slow times means poor too? It is times like that I wish we had it better, but you cant put back the kids you already have... :p

But its not a "poor" that the kids notice... they arent going to be better/happier kids with more "stuff".. :p

Of course I would like more money, and when the youngest is in school, Ill be qualified and in the workforce, so essentially doubling our income possibly...

So poor now doesnt mean poor forever, just like rich now certainly doesn't mean rich later...

Anyone rich can look down their nose at me for my large family, (and I dont mean anyone here! :))... and they themselves be on struggle street in 6 months time, with my "poor" family doing much better than them... thats how life rolls!! ;)

To me, our money goes where we want it to... our kids, education, house, food, and some extras...
We have nice furniture, bought it new about 6 months ago.. (we have 3 plasmas tele's, which wasnt my idea! :wall:) so prob look richer than we are...

So do our kids notice we dont have money to splash?? I dont think so, not yet.. and by the time they are older, ill be in better work too...

I know many people with much less kids, more income, who still have less money than us because of where they put it.. constant take away, gadgets, credit cards etc... which mean nothing to me at all....

So its a case of different strokes for different folks... but something i agree on totally is bringing in large amounts of children when properly "poor"... when you cant get shoes, decent food and kids are going without the general basics of a good life... that makes me very sad.....:cry:

Kyra, awesome posts....

We dont have a lot in the bank, but we have no debt bar the house... everything we have we own outright ( and its alot of stuff, its a BIG house full of mostly new furniture) and have no credit card.. so all the money coming in is ours, we just pay the same bills as everyone else...

I b/f, use cloth nappies, only clean with bi carb and vinegar, etc etc.. all stuff that is super super cheap, and I would do it the same had I a million bucks anyway...
Were we to get rich I still wouldnt get takeaway crap for my kids...

So yeah, rich is relative... i could give someone with oodles of money my 6 (maybe 7 )kids, and them not be able to feed or clothe them beacuse they bought take away everynight, bought lunches and coffee, and a new $400 handbag etc... and have them think I'm super rich for being able to afford the kids!! :p

Everyone puts their money where they want it to go.. and as long as your out earning enough everyone has the right to spend it where they see fit.....

And I must note.. when I see a young 20 something with no kids, gorgeous clothes and all the trimmings, I do wonder What If???? :redface:

I haven't read the other posts as I'm using my iPhone but all a baby or child needs is love n support inwhich money can't buy
But in saying that if u can't afford to eat let alone pay for every day expenses then I think that ppl should wait
But I'm sure ur NOT those ppl
So I don't think ur selfish

we've gone from being well off (120k or more if both working full time) to (by centrelink definition) a low income family - and it happened overnight (well, over an hour, when DH got taken off the road due to health issues) - at this point in time, we could still comfortably have a second child, but any more would be pushing it to maintain the level of living we have. we don't go out a lot to restaurants or eat much crap, but we do socialise with friends who live a fair way from us, we have friends over for meals, we want DD to not go without (and we are already planning ahead under the assumption we will be a single income family when she gets to school, so paying out extra curriculars etc on that single wage). we have also factored in what might happen if for some reason i couldn't work for any period of time, and how we would survive if we had to revert to c'link alone as we had to do for a portion of last year/early this year

however, unfortunately, we can't just choose to have a child - we would have to undergo assisted conception and the related expense IS beyond what we can afford at the moment. yeah, we could do it, but it's not money i'm prepared to spend at this point on a "maybe" - there are no guarantees, and i'd prefer to put that money into our family. i'd prefer to emotionally invest myself with the family i DO have, not the family i MIGHT have - hope that makes sense)

we've done the dramatic drop of income, and it can make life mighty difficult if you have one "standard" of living and then change it - so when you consider your long term future, consider the "what if's" and whether you can maintain all those things you personally feel are non-negotiable** if you lost the wage you are currently relying on



**just to clafify - everyone will have different "non-negotiable" aspects of their life, things they personally will not forgo for any reason (be it their childs education, their home ownership, extra curriculars) and only you can decide what these are and factor that into the "how many kids can we afford" equation.