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newmumofone, thanks so much for your response. I’m not sure why my question caused such uproar but I’m very interested in how it’s worked for you and the people around you. I checked page 63 but thought that applied to formula feeding only. So I guess it’s the same quantity of formula milk to expressed milk? Thanks for the tip about keeping a note pad, great idea. I can’t wait to give it a go!
munaz, I don't think your question caused uproar, but rather some interesting discussion which I think is important. There is no "right" way for everyone, and hearing about a range of experiences is helpful.
One thing I do have an issue with though, is the idea that babies have to have a set amount of milk. There has been some absolutely amazing research done in recent times, particularly by Peter Hartmann, which shows some very interesting things. Firstly, babies drink roughly the same amount of milk every day between the ages of 1 month and 6 months (when solids are introduced). The amount consumed daily by a baby does not, as commonly believed, increase with either age or weight. It also shows a huge variety in the amount of milk consumed daily by different babies. The range is pretty much anywhere from 500ml a day, to 1000ml a day depending on the baby, but there are also babies who drink less than 500ml and a day and those that drink over 1000mls a day. It is a very individual thing and "forcing" a certain amount on a baby is not a good idea.
It can also be very stressful for mums to focus on how much is going in. So much un-necessary worry occurs because babies refuse to drink the amount of milk specified on the formula tin or in a book. Knowing how much milk a baby is drinking is not all that useful - you still don't know how much they want or how much they need. It's far more useful to only look at what's coming out. A baby who is getting enough milk will have at least 5 heavily wet disposables in 24 hours (or 6 - 8 pale, wet cloth nappies) and depending on the age will also have 2 or more runny or soft poos a day (over 12 weeks the poos can be less frequent but shouldn't be hard). Babies who are getting enough milk will also be putting on weight and have good skin tone. This is all that matters - if enough is coming out it doesn't matter how much is going in, because it's enough and it's all good.
If a strict routine and measuring and timing things works for you, well and good. I have no problem with you doing what works for you. I just feel that it's important to point out the downfalls so that parents know both the pros and cons before making a decision on what to do, and so that parents who have found CLB or Tizzie Hall hasn't worked for them can understand that this is not a problem - doing things other ways is fine too and they haven't "failed".
Munaz,
I didn't really think about the chart relating to expressed or formula, I just took it as a guide. Sometimes she took less, sometimes she gobbled it all up we gave her an extra 25mls which she rarely finished. So I guess I would say she had between 80-120ml at the 10pm feed. Of course you never really know how much they are taking on the breast. I just watched that she didn't need longer than an hour during the day as the nurse said that was way too long. After a month or so she was feeding in 40 mins, then 30, and now she polishes off a bottle in about 5 minutes!
We were lucky and never had a problem with her nappies, she digested after every feed before the next and was always well, but that is a good indicator (as the prevoius poster said) of what they're getting. They definitely all take different amounts. By about 2-3 months she was having a lunch bottle that was 250ml, where as a friend's daughter same age was only taking 125ml, and a mothers group friend's son was taking 350ml.
If you offer enough, the baby will hopefully take what they need and if you have a guide to start you can increase or decrease as needed. As CLB says, always feed a hungry baby. There's no need to try to continue to feed a baby who isn't taking it, if they're not hungry they're not hungry.
One extra point I just remembered that I would urge everyone - get BPA free bottles! I had to order Avent ones online as they weren't available in stores, but other brands are. Many other western countries ban BPA bottles - Australia has crap labelling, food and safety standards.
I've been very interested to read the opinions on this book.
I am due my first baby in 3 weeks and was recommended this book by one of the Drs that I work with - he and his wife swear by it and have 3 of the most well behaved and happy children that I have ever met (important to note they are no longer babies).
Anyway, I got this book and it TERRIFIED me. It just seems so rigid. I will be taking some strategies from it but will be leaving others out.
Thanks for a very interesting thread!
Sue x
Hi Sue,
As you may have read on this thread, there are lots of strong opinions about CLB. It is written in a very curt tone, but nothing is to be taken from that except that Ford can be a little clinical. Having said that, she talks about decades of experience in nannying and developing the routines based on much research.
In my experience, and that of my sisters, friends and mothers' group friends, it is a sucess. However, I would say that for me it was most sucessful when I followed as much as possible of the routines. My daughter (now 9 months and still perfect!) slept more than the routines allowed, but I still woke her up on time, it just meant she went to sleep earlier than stated when she needed. I never had a problem with her hunger, the routines preempted her hunger, and she has never cried for food and when she's full she stops. She was in fact better at feeding than the routines suggest and started dropping feeds earlier than the book suggests.
I didn't need to express as much as the book suggests as I had a great supply, but I'm sure my supply was a result of starting off 3 hourly as she suggests. My body worked like clockwork. I expressed if I had too much, particularly at the 10pm feed, but not every night.
So the book is rigid and perhaps clinical, but it does work and it does give you a contented little baby. I found that the routines enabled me to have quality play and cuddle time with her, as we were both always rested and happy. One of my three sisters who didn't follow CLB unfortunately has not had such an experience with hers. Everyone is different though.
Good luck, any day now!
Sue: Just one observation :) My mother is a nurse and raised me with strict routines and a no-nonsense approach similar to Ms Fords. I was a very well behaved child too. I learnt early that if i had a problem it was better to keep quiet and not bother the adults with it. I learnt to fit in with them and never expected them to fit in with my needs. I never woke my parents at night. I remember lying in my bed cold some nights because I needed a blanket but i shivered instead of daring to enter my parents bedroom at night. What a good girl I was. When my parents separated and my mother's new boyfriend started treating me inappropriatly I never said a word because it would upset my parents and you shouldn't do that.
Confident kids who have been raised gently are not as convenient as children rasied more strictly but i can assure you that they grow up safer with their confidence to tell adults to stop doing things that are not in their best interests. Please dont aim to have convenient children. It often comes at the price of trust.
I choose not to ever criticise (either passively or aggressively) other posts, but that last one is just silly. You can't seriously be aligning other mothers' choices to raise their babies in a certain way with the tragedy you have endured as a child? I am sorry for what you have suffered, but to suggest that because my child sleeps from 7 to 7 at present means that I won't ever let her come into our bed when sick, upset etc is nothing short of unfounded and unfair judgment.
I am disturbed and offended at your passive suggestion. I'm quite happy to leave this post as it clearly upsets you when I post MY experiences, but others are asking me questions and I'm happy to support them.
I have never said that my daughter is well behaved, I think that is a ridiculous concept for an infant/baby. She is contented, that is, she is nearly always happy, laughing, clapping, crawling, chasing the dogs, and generally playful. I also never said anything about being quiet, she talks and babbles at the top of her voice for all waking hours. Much to our enjoyment and the strangers she engages when we're out. There are exceptions of course, she had a cold last week, grew 4 teeth the week before and had conjunctivitis the week before that. Overall she is an absolute joy, and I choose to share that with other posters.
I have also never used the word convenient.
Once again, in MY experience, CLB is a great way to raise a contented little baby. I'm sure there are others too.
New mum - I think that Bath was referring to Sue's comment about her dr's obedient children, not to you. I think she was saying "well behaved children may not necessarily be happy but you might not know this" Not "all well behaved children have problems". Also, you write about how well CLB worked for you, but from what I gather (I have only ever read excerpts of the book, so can't really comment), you seem to have taken the bits of the routines that worked for you and ignored the bits that didn't work (e.g. your baby going to bed earlier than stated). I think that this is the most sensible apporach to take - read widely and do the things that work and ignore the ones that don't. Don't forget to mention this when recommending CLB to others.
Sue - if the book scares you, other posters have suggested other books and other apporaches. Everyone is different. Personally I don't like routines, therefore would not consciously try an approach that is based on them. My daughter was a contented baby too, and she was demand fed and we co-slept (still do) - so do what works for you. Don't feel the need to do something "recommended" by someone else as everyone is different and what works for one may not work for another.
Thanks Starfish :) Yes, I was referring to the doctors well behaved children. It just resonated with me that a key focus of my upbringing was to be well behaved at all times. Children could have fun but it was still very much "seen but not heard and speak only when spoken to". It was all very adult initiated. This us why I personally do not like parenting books that advocate adult initiated caring. Yes you may eat now, yes you may play now, may sleep and may touch me. There seems to be very little child initiated aspects to routines in the CLBB and each to their own but I think if it was it would be more respectful if it did.
Newmum: I told of MY experience. ETA: and on re-reading your post you do actually sound like my mother when you call my post "silly". I had a very challenging childhood and it hurts to hear people be so dismissive about it. I hope you are more compassionate toward your child.
I really appreciate everyone's thoughts on this, truly.
I have actually worked with kids with mental health difficulties for a number of years so do realise that a well behaved child isn't necessarily a happy one. I like kids to have some feistiness about them - they are little people after all with personalities that need to be developed and encouraged and I love to see kids being a bit naughty and testing the boundaries - they need to make sure the boundaries are still there after all!!
I guess I was more scared by the fact that the routines did not ever suggest leaving the house - there was no room for weekends, outings, etc - I will not be staying in the house for the next year, I can tell you that!!
I will be taking some of the advice though, I do think that she makes some very good points about certain things. I will be adapting her routines to my bubby and what works for us.
Thank you so much for everyone's diverse thoughts - it is very interesting to hear what others thing.
Sue x
Sue - I didn't read the other posts extensively and I am not weighing into any debates. I used the this book when I had my first baby. Like all parenting "how to" books you have to take only the advice that suits you or rings true. I used some of the ideas and not others. My first child was born loving routine so I found she suited having a set pattern to her day. My second and third babies were completely different and I found I just couldn't fit them into the suggested time slots etc. But I still used/use the sleep association advice. What I've found that eventually a baby will get themselves into a rough routine eventually.
all the best
I also used sleep associations like feed, bath, dressing with soft music, drawn curtains, lowered voices but then I breast fed all my babies to sleep which is contradictory to the advice of stricter books... And then we co slept. Basically because this seemed to be what my babies wanted... Happy baby Happy mumma :) I also TOTALLY reject any notion that a baby is manipulative or spoilt as many of the stricter books suggest... Utter rubbish.
Yep, I think routines in terms of where and how a baby sleeps are important rather than when, if that makes sense. By that I mean, there is nothing more stressful than watching the clock either thinking "it's time to get them up" or "it's time they were asleep now" and then getting frustrated when they're not following the timetable.
I always made sure that DD went to sleep either in her bassinette in the living room (in the first few months) or in her cot - not in a bouncer or on the floor conked out. I think the association of a bed with sleep is important. Always with the same routine - wrapping, a bit of rocking till she was dozy and me singing dodgy lullabies. As she got older, we dropped the wrapping in favour of a fluffy blanket and gradually dropped the rocking in favour of tickling which is also against the rules. I'm a huge fan of the blanket.
I took some of the thoughts/advice from CLBB - completely ignored the rest. The only three things I took from the book with DS1 were (1) sleep bub in a darkened room (2) try to bottle feed bub once a day so dad can participate and give mum a little break; and (3) a bub that is awake more often during the day, sleeps longer at night. I don't even do #1 or #2 with DS2, but he still sleeps and feeds well. What didn't work for me at all, were Ford's rigid routines. In fact, I didn't even try the routines. Always said I'd give them a go if I had a child who just wouldn't settle at night, but that never happened.
My two bubs set their own "routines". I think this is probably the reality vs Ford. My two have wanted to be BFd approx every 3 hours (I've always fed on demand). DS1 starting sleeping through the night at 8 weeks; DS2 at 3 weeks. Both piled on the weight in a big way, so there was no reason to wake them up for a feed. DS1 we gave 1 x EBM bottle a day from the day he was born, particularly after it took us a few weeks to establish BFing. With DS2 I've BF'd exclusively. Interesting tho that DS1 would settle easily with DH, while DS2 doesn't. I don't wake my boys at 7am and neither goes to bed at 7pm on the dot - but we have our own morning/night routine we stick to.
IMO only ... we do what works for our babies, and yes - for us too. If mum is totally lost on how to manage a new baby - particularly if mum is on the verge of meltdown after baby wakes for several hours in the middle of the night every night and cannot be settled - then, just maybe giving the book a shot is worth it in their opinion.
While BB is a gentle parenting sight, I don't think other BB users who are dedicated to their babies, and have happy children, can be frowned upon for trying somebody's routines. Healthy debate is essential, as proven by this thread, you get to see both sides of the story. I don't think there'd be a single BB user who would use Ford's book with a single intention of having a contended baby but didn't give a damn about their child's happiness.
To anyone thinking of using the strategies in the book I'd say read it with an open mind. Personally, I'd advise people not to be governed by Ford's structured routines - you could get too caught up in rigidity of it. Rather think about some of the thoughts/suggestions, and work out for yourself what works for your bub and you ;).
Yep totally agree:
I will add a bit to my last post. Being a new mum I didn't understand demand feeding a newborn and I was under the impression that babies should only bf on the clock. I failed my DD1 big time and we only feed for 6 weeks. We did have other issues too, but I always felt that I didn't have enough milk because my baby wouldn't last 3/4 hourly between feeds.
Hello,
I have only ever read forums and never actually voiced an opinion but I feel very interested in this one as Gina Ford has been my saviour!
I was lent a well worn copy of the CLB book by my sister in law when I was pregnant. I had always wanted to follow my sister in laws' (I have two) example as they have such happy family lives.
I was very careful not to mention my intention to be a routine mum to my wonderful midwife as there is so much pressure to be a demand feed mum these days - the times and fads change but unfortunately the only thing that remains the same is that the current ideas are always heavily instructed upon us.
To my delight my daughter didn't lose any weight in her first week and she gained on her birthweight in the second week but I was still very careful not to mention the word 'routine' to any of the nurses who made home visits (I had a different one visiting me at home every day for a week). In fact, I remember in a moment of panic hiding Gina Ford under my couch before one of these visits - I felt like a heretic or something!!
After following this book I felt so much more confident in being aware of my babies behaviour especially when she talks about babies drifting in to a light sleep and needing to learn to settle themselves.
Most of my close friends are demand feed mums and they are wonderful mums. We are all doing what we feel is right for our children.
i too had bought this book before i found BB, it never worked for me.
i Totally 100% agree with what Mantaray said about the term "success" not meaning our child is sleeping through the night but a child who is happy and healthy and all his needs are being met etc i think that the Author of this book portrays unrealistic expectations on mothers i know i found it to be a bit overwelming to read, i wouldnt recommend this book.
It's funny, I was reading through this book last night and just thinking how outrageous it is (to me anyway). Babies shouldn't actually sleep through the night at such a young age because they still need to be fed. The more I think about it, the more I think it should be called the Contented Parent book. My baby is demand fed and has actually put herself into a fairly regular pattern of sleeping herself. She gets what she needs - and is fed twice in the night and we are happy with that as we co-sleep so there are minimal disruptions.
But each to their own and like Joyfull mum said, we are all doing what is right for our children.
S X