Pitbulls

[Reet]

Ok so I was watching The 7pm Project tonight and it had the story of the pitbull x mauling to death the poor little 4 yr old girl last night. It is so so horrible... I dont even like thinking about it But its also given me a bit of a sick feeling in my tummy.. we have a pitbull. He is a pure rednose - the worst u can get.. apparently. It was said on the 7pm project that pitbull owners are basically stereotyped as being tough ppl wanting a tough dog. This is definitely not us. We are far from this kind of person. Our little Yogi Bear wore a bright purple collar for the last 6 months until just recently when he grew out of it and dh bought him a camo/army patterned one. He will never be in the big studded collars to try and make him look tough or anything.

We never actually went out looking for a pitbull, we were looking for a puppy exactly the same as our darling little Nala girl that was killed just before xmas Here. She was a bull mastiff x. We looked in the paper and visited the dog shelters each week trying to find the dog that was going to mend our broken hearts. After a few weeks of looking we saw an ad in the paper for red nose staffys, my dh actually suggested that we go and look at them. By this stage we had driven hrs and hrs looking at different puppies k's and k's away so 5 ks up the road wasnt going to hurt!
We went and saw these 12 adorable little puppies, and found out once we were there that they were in fact pitbulls not red nose staffies. Apparently thats there code name..?

Anyway we were there for 2.5 hrs playing with each one, we werent going to just choose anything.. trying to find a puppy to replace our Nala girl wasnt an easy task! We also sussed out Mum and Dad, they were gorgeous. They had a great temperament and were both really good with their babies. We ended up leaving with a gorgeous very wrinkley little red boy.

Over the next few weeks we wld occasionally say to each other 'what were we thinking getting a pitbull??! Are we stupid??!' He was absolutely adorable (here) and quite smart but we were just afraid of the whole stigma attached to these types of dogs. We made a deal that whenever we had a chance we wld take him to the local dog park so he cld socialise as much as possible and not become aggressive like so many ppl just assume pitbulls are.

So anyway thats what we have been doing and he is going really well, he is very submissive, a dog will come over to him and he will go straight down on his back. Exactly what we want.

We are also making sure he is good with our little baby girl, we put her on his back to ride him all the time, and when he is freshly washed we lay her on him for a few seconds. He is always so good with her. He just lays there quite content.

Anyway the point of my post is.. do u think our little boy cld still turn at some stage even if we continue to socialise him frequently?? Does it just happen like that? Or do u think it is the owners fault when a dog becomes aggressive and if they had done things differently then the dog wldnt be the way it is..??

Like i said it made me feel sick when i saw just how many maulings and deaths there are by pitbulls each year in Australia, i cant imagine ever being the owner of something so savage I also sometimes like to think of it as, well lucky we bought him or he might have been sold to someone who was going to bring him up in a bad environment and make him into some tough guard dog. I think we're the best owners for him??

Ur thoughts and opinions on this matter wld be greatly appreciated. Even any suggestions as to how to stop him turning into one of those aggressive pitbulls.

Thankyou

ETA: Hes not yet desexed, we were going to have him done at 6 months but the vet said to wait until hes 9-10 months. Apparently getting rid of the testosterone too early in a male dog can stop their bones and muscles from developing properly. So within the next month we will definitely be getting him done. Behaviour wise- when do u suggest desexing a dog and does it help to stop aggression forming??

Oh and also we wldnt ever leave a dog with our little girl without supervision regardless of the breed so dont worry about that

[Taurean]

I think any dog can turn nasty at any time, regardless of breed. There are certainly some breeds though that just seem to have the aggressive gene and pitbulls are one of them.

It's such a difficult topic, I feel for you! I know I could never buy a pitbull and honestly wouldn't feel comfortable visiting someone with a pitbull but that's just me and my opinion. I have no doubt there are many wonderful, good natured pitbulls out there but gee the they get an awful lot of bad press which makes them a tough breed to trust.

Also, I think the earlier the better for desexing - so as soon as your dog is old enough. I can't remember how old my dog was but it was around or just before 6 months of age. He's a ****er spaniel poodle cross who is super friendly but he still has his moments - you wouldn't want to steal a bone from him, that's for sure. That can be helped with training but a dog will protect his food and who can blame him really?

[Glass half full]

I was talking about this with DF today. I agree that any dog can turn at anytime, regardless if their breed or nature. I don't know whether pitbulls do so more often, or if it's just that when they do they are a lot more aggressive??
DF had his friends pitbull livig with him when I first met him and she was a really sweet, placid dog. I still remember the first time coming to his house the first time he had her inside sitting at the screen door when i knocked. He told me just to come in, and I was like um no way!! You come here and let me in or she might eat me!! Haha.
But seriously, I think ALL dog owners need to be cautious and aware of the fact that unfortunately they could snap one day.
Good luck with your little guy, he sounds gorgeous


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[FabFiona]

My thoughts? I'd get rid of it.

It's late and I'm grumpy so I'll write more tomorrow.


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[Floweryfields]

Unfortunately I'd say get rid of him too. Yes all dogs have the potential to be or turn agressive. However it is in the genetic makeup of these dogs, they've been bred for years to be agressive and it does still pass on genetically to the breed.

PP have said they supervise their dog/children always - but there is always going to be the chance that you turn your back for that second. No one can say their dog will always be locked in, always supervised, always say - no one, because we are all human and accidents happen, gates get left open, tragedies occur.

[Sammiejane]

Short answer YES, get rid of him, itsin his nature to attack

Long answer...
My ex had a pitball, she was the most beautiful dog you have EVER seen, she was loyal and loving and oh so friendly... Nothing like the stereotype (sounds similar to yours)
She was well socialised also.

He lived with a mate who had one of his sisters, he treated her differently and took her hunting () she was one scary dog and I was glad she was never inside of the house.

Anyway one day another dog was 'playing' with my X's dog (they had been socialized extensively together) and something happened. I have never seen anything so frightening in my life as these two dogs going for each other. They both had to be hit with sticks (big bits of wood) to het them off each other
When I was visibly shaken, I was laughed at 'what did I expect' etc
Their jaws lock into each other when they bite, they unfortunately are designed to kill. This ONE incident changed X's dog and she was no longer the same sweet little girl

You are right, you can NEVER trust any dog, but you also cannot sit next to your child 100% of the time, when DD1 was little she ended up next to the dog (a mixed breed dog - but no aggressive dog in her) in a matter of seconds and was pulling her lip, our dog sat there and yelped, it clearly hurt her and was enough to give us all a scare, we were lucky that she didn't turn around and bite dd1... I would never want to test her again, but I feel 'safe' that our dog is not a breed that is likely to attack and she was behavior tested before we bought her (from the lost dogs home)...

I would not like to be in your shoes right now, i guess you have to ask yourself, can you live with yourself if your dog turns on you, your child or someone elses?
Because even though you treat your dog right, it can still happen and with a breed like a pitbull, it is more likely than any other breed...

Personally, I would have never bought the dog in the first place, nor would I buy a dog that has any violent associations with the breed as I planned to have children.

I'm sorry if that sounds harsh you must be feeling so conflicted right now... He is beautiful and it's hard to believe such a cute thing could ever be capable of hurting another...



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[Cranky Kitten]

It must be a really tough position to be in, and not one that many would understand.

Whilst it's true that any dog can attack and cause serious injury, some breeds have been specifically bred for aggression and traits that make them good fighting/hunting dogs. These same traits mean that they generally do not make good family pets - there are exceptions to every rule, but for the most part the dog has a deeply ingrained instinct that is difficult to overcome. Most dogs when provoked to the point of biting will snap then release. Enough to get the result they're after, the cessation of whatever behaviour is distressing the dog.

Some breeds though, do not release - and a pitbull is one of these. They will keep going. And going. And it's that that causes the severity of the injuries seen. Personally, that's not a risk I'd be willing to accept around young children. Simply because no matter how much supervision there is, and how well trained the dog, there is always the risk of a kid finding that one thing that triggers an aggressive response.

[~ Mylitta ~]

It must be a really tough position to be in, and not one that many would understand.

Whilst it's true that any dog can attack and cause serious injury, some breeds have been specifically bred for aggression and traits that make them good fighting/hunting dogs. These same traits mean that they generally do not make good family pets - there are exceptions to every rule, but for the most part the dog has a deeply ingrained instinct that is difficult to overcome. Most dogs when provoked to the point of biting will snap then release. Enough to get the result they're after, the cessation of whatever behaviour is distressing the dog.

Some breeds though, do not release - and a pitbull is one of these. They will keep going. And going. And it's that that causes the severity of the injuries seen. Personally, that's not a risk I'd be willing to accept around young children. Simply because no matter how much supervision there is, and how well trained the dog, there is always the risk of a kid finding that one thing that triggers an aggressive response.

Exactly what I would have written. It's a really tough situation to be in. While a dog's upbringing certainly plays a huge role in their demeanor and personality, there are still always inbred traits that are carried in the blood lines. Just look at Chihuahua's who are notorious for being very snappy. But would you prefer a Chihuahua snapping at your face, or a pitbull?

Before having kids the majority of my "professional" career was spent as a surgical vet nurse. I've experienced pretty much every breed you could think of over the many years. I also run puppy classes for a number of years so experienced these breeds as both puppies and adults. I generally don't have a "fear" of any particular breeds, but I am certainly more wary and careful with some. Those include Pitbulls, Kelpies, Malamutes, GSD's, and some cattle dog breeds (Heelers and Border Collies). Sure, I've seen some absolutely beautiful dogs of those breeds, but in my experience those have been some of the breeds we've seen the most behavioural problems with. Strangely, for a breed that can often be confused by many people as Pitbulls, I've never once seen a nasty Staffy.

Animals around kids can definitely be tricky. When ever I was asked "what breed dog should I get for my kids?" my general answer was a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel if they could afford the possible heart complications the dog was likely to have, lol.

[LuluHB]

I would definitely be having him put down. IMHO, and yes its harsh, the only good pitbull is a dead one. That goes for a number of dangerous breeds - Japanese Akitas spring to mind. Then there are a number of breeds that should never, ever be in a home with children, off a lead or unmuzzled in public. Then there's just the dogs that we still have to always always watch around our children.

These dogs have been purpose bred for decades to fight. That's why they use them in dog fights - they fight to the death and just do not give up. The sweetest, kindest dog will still have its natural extinct kick in when it is either confronted with aggression or is fighting to save "its people". You have a tiny baby, and your dog's instinct is going to be to protect that baby. So what can potentially happen when down the track a family friend is having some rough and tumble play with your child that all kids love? Maybe absolutely nothing. Maybe the absolute worst. Locking jaws or not (and I was always under the impression that they did lock their jaws), these are extremely strong, solid dogs that in a frenzy are a whole lot stronger than you are. Unfortunately waiting for the first sign of aggression is often too late.

Also, FWIW I have also been told that its not correct that you need to wait for male dogs to physically mature before desexing them. My male puppy is booked in smack on 6 months, and he will grow into a big dog. The quicker testosterone is limited in a family dog the better.

[~ Mylitta ~]

Also, FWIW I have also been told that its not correct that you need to wait for male dogs to physically mature before desexing them. My male puppy is booked in smack on 6 months, and he will grow into a big dog. The quicker testosterone is limited in a family dog the better.

While I'm definitely pro-desexing, and definitely like it to be done at 6 months for pet dogs that are at risk of breeding (obviously not breeding dogs), there's actually quite a bit of literature that shows that 6 months is not always the ideal time to desex. A study in 1991 found that a number of factors including the sex hormones are what promote the closing of the growth plates in dogs. So it's actually the opposite of what is believed; dogs desexed early are actually more likely to be bigger than late-desexed or non-desexed dogs because the growth plates take longer to close and their bones continue to grow for longer. This can cause a higher incidence of things like hip displasia and damaged cruciate ligaments later down the track. This obviously makes it a difficult choice for some owners as to when they should desex their dog as they have to balance the risk of changing their dog's natural growth with the risk of sex hormone based behaviours. A 2004 study actually found that early desexing can increase the incidence of sexual behaviors in males and females...

While that seems a little off-topic, I just wanted to put it out there in case anyone was thinking that the OP was negligent in not desexing yet.

[RainbowBrite]

All breeds of dogs have the ability to turn, even little dogs can but I think the thing with pitt bulls is the lockjaw...once they get hold of something the lock their jaw and won't let go.
So even if you are in the room if they become aggressive and attack there is not a lot you can do (though I have seen a pitty owner put a tree branch up his dogs backside as a last effort to get him to let go of another dog...and it worked)
It is not a breed I would have around my children, even if they are placid as I don't feel it is a risk worth taking but I know that it is very hard once you attached to a dog it is very hard to break that bond.


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[SunnyRain]

It's hard. But it's true all dogs are capable of aggression. We had chihuahuas who were very gentle and peaceful, not the stereotype of yapping little things, but disturb their sleep or get in the way of their dinner and they have lightning reflexes and sharp teeth.

I think you might need professional help on this one. I'm not sure what you should do, but you should probably separate the dog and the baby at all times, children can accidentally hurt dogs and the resulting instinct of a pitbull would not be good.
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[Jakabella]

Tough call. I'm not sure what I would do. I would not Just get rid of it but I would definitely not let your baby and dog be alone, that goes for ANY dog. We have 2 black labs - most docile dogs you could ever know - but I would NEVER EVER take my eyes off them when my kids are around. Any dog cam turn.

[alish]

no reet, i wouldnt get rid of the dog!
any breed can turn - we had a border collie that attacked me when i was little
we have 2 staffies, i have 100% faith that they wouldnt attack anyone!
all our little neices and nephews play all over them and they love it,
but in saying that, id never leave my or any kids alone with them, or any dog, you just dont
thats just my opinion!

[njon2]

Even though he is absolutely gorgeous, I would get rid of him.

I know that all dogs can be aggressive, but the lock-jaw is what puts this breed on a different level.

People can also say that they trust their dogs 100% not to attack, but no one ever expects their pet to be the exception and it always comes as a shock when something happens.

Also you have to remember that these statistics aren't pulled out of thin air. This breed is known to be aggressive and there are enough incidences of maulings and deaths to cause concern.

I guess the only 'safe' pet are fish.....

[Nai]

njon, but if your child falls into the tanks they could drown so not even fish are safe!

Reet, tough call Any dog has the capability to turn. We have a greyhound and while they are placid many have been bred to chase and have been blooded for racing. They also have strong jaws (not as strong as pitbulls but the ability to cause massive damage). Our greyhound was savaged by another greyhound and it was hideous. My children will never go near that other dog and I am vigilant with them around Benny even though he has never shown signs of aggression. We knew this other dog and she just snapped - it was so scary!

You need to consider with your dog, the likelihood of the breed suddenly snapping at an incident changing from sweet to aggressive, your ability to control him, the general temperament of the breed, the strength of the dog and the damage that could be inflicted if he did snap. I guess a chihuahua suddenly turning and attacking is not going to inflict the same damage as a Husky but if the breed was renowned for aggression I still would be concerned.

[meow]

I can't imagine having a pitbull so I would think you can't keep this dog. I have heard so many stories of people who thought theirs was gentle and well trained but it still went on to attack. The fact that it came from back yard breeders who lied about the breed (obviously knowing the reputation) is a little concerning to TBH.

I think you need to do some more research and perhaps speak to your vet.

[*Efjay*]

Tough call. I'm not sure what I would do. I would not Just get rid of it but I would definitely not let your baby and dog be alone, that goes for ANY dog. We have 2 black labs - most docile dogs you could ever know - but I would NEVER EVER take my eyes off them when my kids are around. Any dog cam turn.

Classic example here that any dog can attack. Here one owner describes her Labs as the most docile dogs you could ever know. But for me personally I wouldn't own a lab. I have worked with dogs for many many years & often see uncontrollable Labrador's. People assume they are getting a smart, friendly wonderful breed from a Lab. BUT fail to realise ALL dogs need to learn how to appropriately behave. I know of 3 labs that I wouldn't trust around my kids or other dogs for that matter. They are not an aggressive breed but with out the right training they can be stupid & pushy. 1 of this 3 was good with people BUT had no idea how to obay & walk on a lead properly. Lovely owner but yeah, treated her like a person so in turn she walked all over him. She also was starting to become aggressive with other dogs when she stayed. She thought she was Queen bee.. The other 2 were from another family. I was scared of those two, they were big, strong & would use that to their advantage. Again another example of "good breed gone wrong" due to stupid owners.


As for getting rid of your pitbull..... I guess for the time being just do your best to treat him right, make sure he is desexed (even if he is only a few months old go get him done. There really isn't a need to wait till 6 months, its just recommended but it can be done) & wait & see if the laws change. Do the right thing now to avoid the wrong thing happening later.