"Privileged" Education

[Jennifer13]

I often think if you're even asked it's so the asker can justify why they're currently spending 000s on whichever private school their children are attending.

Trill, you raise a very valid point. By the time you have 10 years working experience under your belt, all anyone cares about is who you've worked for, not where you went to school. At least, in terms of job prospects/offers, from what I've noticed.

Krisp - I think you raise a very valid point in terms of how we define success in our society.

[Trillian]

That probably needs a whole thread of it's own LOL.

Its simple for me. It's whatever makes you happy. If having all the bells and whistles, the means to travel overseas each year and working those 80hours a week to get it makes you feel happy/successful/fulfilled, then it can't be a bad thing. But if that is what makes a person happy, then I'd be interested to know if their other half feels the same way, whether they can deal with hardly seeing their partner because they have all this other stuff or if the happiness is one sided kwim. Maybe that's why you see all these tree/sea changers now, because they aren't happy/fulfilled anymore?

[tattoo_mama]

I have only briefly scanned the PP's but I will say this: I went to *apparently* perths top girls private school, and I have ended up a young tattooed single mum, ex drug abuser and exotic dancer, so it obviously didn't rub off on me haha. But having said that, it has always helped me get jobs cause it looks good on my resume and I know how to 'turn on' my private school side (eloquent speech etc) when need be. I do have a strong sense of knowing when to be tactful and when to be assertive but I would say thats more ingrained in me by my mother (wouldn't you agree Amanda lol )

[Bathsheba]

The kind of "success" I'm hoping for my children includes:

The ability to pursue a life in which you feel able to meet all the challenges put before you. If you feel connected to a community and have the drive to contribute and are ABLE to contribute in a manner that fits your skill set then I believe happiness will follow.

To this ends what DH and I want for our children via their formal education:

Relationships with teachers and students that are based on the values of respect, encouragement and community spirit. Teachers that acknowledge that they are co-learners too and not unquestionable over-layers of knowledge. A learning environment that supports each individual childs' level of development and incorporates their interests into the curriculum not a pre-destined education-board chosen one. Eg. At the start of term the children are consulted about topics that are of interest to THEM and then a program tailored in that direction. NOT: "Ok kids this term we are going to talk about dinosaurs!" Class sighs and gets on with it despite the fact that nearly all the kids are really into the urban farm animals they all saw over the holidays. (And this is not as hard as you would think... I have regularly witnessed classes of children have circle discussions about the Topic of the Term... MUCH easier than asking the BB community about their preferences on a forum change! LOL)

If you show a child the courtesy of allowing them to guide the direction of their own learning this really engages them in the learning process. DH and I want our children to simply LOVE learning new skills and building on the ones they have. We dread the day that they feel that they are just going through the motions to please the teacher like we did at school.

If you love learning, I believe, this is the first step toward success. Once you have that then: "The ability to pursue a life in which you feel able to meet all the challenges put before you. If you feel connected to a community and have the drive to contribute and are ABLE to contribute in a manner that fits your skill set then I believe happiness will follow."

ETA: I know that a child's family culture and the parenting it receives will influence future success. However a school's culture and the attitude the child develops toward formal learning does have a significant influence too. As good as a home life may be... if a school manages to discourage a child's innate desire to learn and engage with the school community then I think this will have a very detrimental effect of the child's future and potential for maximised happiness. This is why I also wanted to add that I tend to disagree with the popular belief that "primary schooling doesn't matter... public education will do... Secondary is more important, we'll probably send our child to a private high-school". I believe that a child's attitude to learning is developed in the Early Years. These are the precious years, the foundation stone. If DH and I couldn't afford to send our DD to both private primary and secondary I would have opted to send her to Private primary where she was able to go from Prep (Kinder in NSW) to grade 6 in classes of 15 girls and under.... and under the respectful learning environment I described above.

[Jennifer13]

To this ends what DH and I want for our children via their formal education:

Relationships with teachers and students that are based on the values of respect, encouragement and community spirit. Teachers that acknowledge that they are co-learners too and not unquestionable over-layers of knowledge. A learning environment that supports each individual childs' level of development and incorporates their interests into the curriculum not a pre-destined education-board chosen one. Eg. At the start of term the children are consulted about topics that are of interest to THEM and then a program tailored in that direction. NOT: "Ok kids this term we are going to talk about dinosaurs!" Class sighs and gets on with it despite the fact that nearly all the kids are really into the urban farm animals they all saw over the holidays. (And this is not as hard as you would think... I have regularly witnessed classes of children have circle discussions about the Topic of the Term... MUCH easier than asking the BB community about their preferences on a forum change! LOL)

If you show a child the courtesy of allowing them to guide the direction of their own learning this really engages them in the learning process. DH and I want our children to simply LOVE learning new skills and building on the ones they have. We dread the day that they feel that they are just going through the motions to please the teacher like we did at school.

Sounds much more like a Montessori/Steiner school approach than any of the so-called exclusive private schools we've visited for DD. Or home schooling. LOL The private schools were all about top results, structured learning and being able to report xx% above a 95 on their HSC (they put themselves in direct competition with selective schools, and I'm not a fan of selective schooling at all). I heard a lot more 'our girls' and 'old girls' than circle discussions.

There is one notable exception to what I've said before. If you want to be a teacher at an exclusive private school, then the private school you went to is definitely a bonus and an important factor.

[widdly]

My 2 cents is this

What a loser that man is!!! Grow up.

He sounds like someone I would never waste my time socialising with.

And no, i dont think it matters which school you went to, especially 22 years down the track!

[Bathsheba]

Jennifer: No, not Steiner or Montessori. My DD went to two Anglican Girls' schools in inner Melbourne. She did kinder to grade 3 at the first then grade 4 - grade 9 at the second. Her first school uses a teaching philosophy based on the Reggio Emilia method of child-directed learning. I worked at this school as a teachers' assistant and aftercare co-ordinator. They were aiming to extend the R.E philosophies to the higher grades as it was so successful. The school was small... and they were not too concerned about hot housing high achievers... but the school gets good results anyhow. When I worked their I attended professional development and toured half a dozen or so other private schools in the area (including Wesley, Lauriston etc) who also were using the R.E philosophies to varying degrees.

Here is an extract from their website: (relevant to Prep - grade 2)

We aspire to maximise the growth and development of girls across all dimensions This means the development of programs that meet the individual needs of a girl's social, emotional, physical, spiritual, moral and academic development.

Within the Junior Discovery Centre the individual learning requirements of each student is met in a challenging, responsive program. Central to the program are the assessment, recording and reporting procedures. The knowledge of the learner is central to the design of individualised programs. The individual learning pathway ensures that each girl is challenged and stimulated to grow and develop at a rate and pace which is appropriate for her. The programs cater for different backgrounds, interest and ways of learning and knowing.

Flexible Groupings

In order to ensure that we are catering for the needs of all learners and providing them with the opportunity to enhance their understandings and learning potential, a number of 'learning groups' operate throughout the day in the Discovery Centre. Across all learning areas, girls are frequently regrouped for different activities rather than being segregated by chronological age. Sometimes girls work alone, sometimes in small groups. Sometimes tasks will be readiness based or interest based and on other occasions they will be constructed to match learning styles.

Whole group instruction may be used to introduce new ideas or for celebrating learning achievements. Flexible grouping of children promotes cognitive and social growth, and encourages a spirit of co-operation rather than competition. Each child is seen as unique and is encouraged to work and make progress at her own level and pace. Social and emotional development is enhanced, intellectual skills are learned and dispositions of greater importance are acquired when children have opportunities to relate to children younger and older than themselves.

ETA: Also, we have sent our DD to 3 Anglican Girls' schools and none have required the girls to have their own laptop or ipad. It was old fashioned text books at all of them.

When I think about it... besides the extra cost of sending my DD to these schools I think the main "privilege" is smaller class sizes and individualised programs. Not that different to why people send themselves to a private hospital (as opposed to public) or drive a private car (as opposed to public transport) when you think about it.

[fionas]

I just read an interesting paper arguing that if parents want to ensure their child gets into university, financially they would be better off NOT sending their children to private school but instead purchasing them a full fee-paying place at their chosen university. The paper was written in 2004, however, and at that time the child's marks needed to be within five marks of the entrance score for that course.

TOTALLY goes against all my meritocratic beliefs but an interesting thought.

[Bathsheba]

The paper was probably right... it would be cheaper, especially if you factor out uniforms costs etc as well as the fees over 13 years (more if you include and ELC program like we did with DD). But that also goes totally against my beliefs!

We actually aren't that concerned about whether our DD goes to university anyhow. For us it's just about fulfilling that definition of success i wrote earlier. As long as my childrens' skill sets are identified and maximised and that they have the motivation to contribute to their communities and feel a part of them that's all that matters. DH got the marks to get into uni but he dropped out.... it was just more hoops to jump through that made no sense to him... a continuation of his schooling that he was never really engaged in. But at his 20 years-of-service celebration at his last bank his boss had found a letter that DH wrote to the bank in back in the mid 1980's: it said something along the lines of; "I've always been good with numbers and I'm sure i'd be a valuable worker at your bank". He was 18. It wasn't for a specific job application... he was cold canvassing them for a job! It was written in biro! And they gave him one! He never returned to uni.

Hopefully my kids will have that kind of initiative... PLUS a love of learning... a tertiary qualification might be an added extra that they would probably be better to pursue as mature age students anyhow when they have a better idea of what they want to do.

[fionas]

That makes sense Bath.

I actually think that people who didn't go to uni are often more curious about the world and more eager to learn than those of us who did. I think my keenness to learn was jaded by uni and I got a bit burnt out. DP, on the other hand, who was expelled from three schools and stopped his formal education at 15, is much more interested in learning new things and reads much more 'academic' books than I ever bother with these days. The Noam Chomskys are his as are the Richard Dawkins.

[Trillian]

That makes sense Bath.

I actually think that people who didn't go to uni are often more curious about the world and more eager to learn than those of us who did. I think my keenness to learn was jaded by uni and I got a bit burnt out. DP, on the other hand, who was expelled from three schools and stopped his formal education at 15, is much more interested in learning new things and reads much more 'academic' books than I ever bother with these days. The Noam Chomskys are his as are the Richard Dawkins.

It's because they learn for the fun and joy of learning and not just for the sake of it.

[angelaartsstudent]

Ja. I never graduated from high school and have had 7 happy years of university education. I do, however, consider myself horribly over-educated now though! DH failed his first ever uni course and dropped out (on the verge of being kicked out), but now has had 25 years of uni education and is a professor, so your highschool/early learning doesn't have a whole lot to do with it.

In my time at uni - particularly when I went to a private uni - seen people who are there becuase their parents want them to and becuase it looks good for their family (rich families educated at the most exxy schools, of course)...they never actually went to class or did any work...just wasted resources.

[AliBaby]

Forgive me for not reading all the posts in this thread but there are a couple of things I want to say that are my opinion only.

Firstly, WHAT A TOOL! He needs some lessons in social ettiquette!

Secondly, I think there is some truth to what he said about the socio-economic group people are in but he has got it all wrong. Parents pay for schooling so really he is only finding out what socio-economic group your parents were in at the time of your schooling and even then, it would only be a stereotypical judgement at that.

In regards to a "privellaged education", I believe that everyone who has been to school in Australia has had a privelleged education whether it be public or private. You only have to look at what other countries offer or dont offer to see that.

FWIW as well I have no idea what a rhode scholar is??? LOL!

[Phteven]

In regards to a "privellaged education", I believe that everyone who has been to school in Australia has had a privelleged education whether it be public or private. You only have to look at what other countries offer or dont offer to see that.

Great point Ali. It's all too easy to forget that nearly all Australian children have access to free(ish) education of a pretty high standard (although arguably that's not the case for some Indigenous communities). Teachers in some developing countries have the equivilant of an Australian year 8 education.
It's such a shame that recent governments blatently took from the public schools to fund private schools because ultimately the standard of the education offered in the poorer public schools will suffer.

[Junglemum]

So very true Ali. I live in a place where education is a luxury. It's so sad to see kids as young as 5 or 6 working in the vegetable garden so the family can make a living. It only costs about $60 Australian dollies a year to send a kid to primary school. But that is beyond so many families.

A friend of mine has a daughter at uni. It costs her entire wage just to send her. The husbands wage is used for the two boys to go to high school and food. They are often without food. And the worst bit is they are considered lucky because they both have jobs?! Well unfortunately due to a big stuff up on the husbands part they have both just lost their jobs. So that is the end of the education for them. Just so unfair.

[~ Zarava Flutterby ~]

I am in two minds TBH i know people i went to school with who later transferred to private schools and they did very well for themselves BUT they were also very smart A+ students in the public system.
I went to a public school, it was what my parents could afford and i quite enjoyed the experience i got from staying with my primary school friends.
We had 2 students (including myself) from the 1 class take out a premiership award (top 5 in Vic), and majority of our graduating class went on to University.

I got a legal traineeship straight out of Yr 12, i went up for that job against other students from the local private schools and i was the one chosen - so i don't think it ALWAYS gets you the position, i think the atitude you portray towards your studies is what makes the difference.

Also DP and his sister went to public schools, his sister is a nurse (quite high up in her dept now) and he now has his won business his cousins went to a private school and well lets just say up until a recent kick up the butt from their parents were not doing a lot with the very expensive education.

I think there are plus sides to both, private schools can often offer a wider subject choice and generally have a better teacher/student ratio.

Personally I think social snobbery based on what school you attended is quite ridiculous, some of the greatest and most influential people in this world have little more than a 2nd class public education.
It's about time people stopped pigeon holing everyone else and based their decisions on someones efforts and human decency rather than the cost of their car, house or education!

[HotI]

ON the channel 7 news tonight there was a story about the new leader of the Victorian ALP and in the description of Daniel Andrews was his former position as Health Minister, his family setup and the secondary school that he attended.

[helle]

The difference between the private and public schools here was that the students at the private schools could afford the best pot. Not that I ever bought any, just saying.

My dad left school at 14, and has built up and sold a few businesses in his time. He could quite possible retire now at 48, but he's a workaholic and will work til the day he dies. Your education is what you make it, I think.