Would you go into debt for your childs secondary education?

I know what you mean I think Liz... but it's a bit different standing up for your own lactating rights in the workplace compared to leveling out the whole education system. I just don't think that it's right on any level for every child to get exactly the same education. Could I ask for Religion to be offered at my public school (more than 1/2 an hour too... I'm talking about a full Anglican church ceremony once a week, hymns included)? Could I please ask for strict uniform codes (that's what DH and value). And could all schools please offer the same subjects? And could they start earlier (8.40am) and finish later (3.40) and have a 3 week holiday in the middle of the year? And could class sizes hover around 10 - 15 in the first year of school and be no larger than 22 in the senior years?

It's a fair comment Liz ;) but in reality it's just not what parents want... I don't think anyone would be happy with a total level system. It would be like telling everyone to drive the same car.

yeah.. I was just being cheeky :) And you're right in one respect.. I don't want education being drummed into my kids as the thing that makes or breaks them.. that they won't get anywhere without it. If Private schools churn out people that believe it's the most important thing, then that's not for us :)

If an employer rejected my kids on the grounds of WHERE they went to school as opposed to their score, their presentation, their personality, then I would be telling them it wouldn't be a good environment to work in anyway.. find more reasonable people to work for.

Heck.. my DH failed his HSC twice, and is now very employable in an industry that he loves, and is more valuable than people coming out with uni degrees (same with my bro.. cept he didn't flunk high school.. just didn't go to uni)

I guess our own life experiences influence us more than anything else. If pieces of paper are what have gotten people through life before, then they know no different and pass this on to their kids. Just as we are passing on to our kids that you don't need pieces of paper or expensive schooling to tell you you're valuable or employable :)

For me personally, no I wouldn't. I went to a few very expensive private schools in high school and in all honesty, the public highs were just as good. Minus the huge fees and literally thousands of dollars per year for the uniforms.

But then again, even if I was really wealthy, I still wouldn't send them to an expensive private school ;)

Ok...Liz, I have worked something out LOL We misunderstand each other about something:

I don't want my children to value pieces of paper or doing an education for education's sake. I want my children to develop their natural curiosity... to become passionate about learning stuff that interests them... to not have all the enthusiasm for learning stuff squashed out of them... to not have to wait until every student is silent and sitting up straight to ask a question... I want my children's natural talents identified and shined so that they are bright in a NATURAL way that THEY find fulfilling. To get this they need inspired and inspiring teachers... who have the ability to actually teach (and not just discipline)... and who teach with passion.

This is why I said I don't care if my DD grows up to be a garbage collector... JUST as long as her talents are used somehow in life. When I attend parent teacher interviews the focus is on how my DD's personal talents are being polished. Personally I expect to hear that "hmmm, your DD is ruling the classroom and talking too much in class" (which they do tell me usually as needed via a phone convo) but instead I hear "Your DD has leadership potential, lets get her involved in the Future Leaders club". From what I know of the private system it has a strong focus on the individual... it is a system that makes something negative (ie outspokenness) into something positive... turns evil powers into good LOL

So do you "get" that I'm not seeking "bits of paper" for my kids? I honestly just want them to be respected in their learning journey and to be able to show respect to others and to most importantly shine as people, not just as future employees. Sounds like an interesting book too BTW (Robert Kyosaki's) I'll look into it :)

I agree Div - a private education can certainly be the 'golden ticket' - and I most definitely agree with you there too Liz.
I KNOW my private education got me a couple of jobs over not having one. But I left them anyway cos I can rock it with the 'corporations of the world' no problem - I just don't want to.

The other thing to consider is how LONG that golden tickets lasts for. It doesn't last forever, there comes a point in your life where your secondary education or even Uni education doesn't mean much at all. It's the actual mark you make, not the paper in a frame on the wall...

xoxoxoxo

I attended both private and public schools and the teachers who inspired me most were the ones I encountered in the public system, they had a passion for education that just wasn't evident in the teachers in any of my private schools.

I think the world is changing a great deal in terms of the golden ticket/old boys network. Most large companies no longer hire in house, instead they outsource it to HR companies who use aptitude testing, role-playing and so on to match jobs with the people best suited to them. Why? To avoid the costs associated with hiring staff that don't measure up via the old-boy network. I think that this attitude to hire is becoming more and more prevelant. I certainly wouldn't even bother looking at where a person went to school if I was resume checking and as Lulu pointed out the longer it has been since you left school the less relevant it is.

Yep and with that post you could almost convert me Bath LOL. But I think you'll have success with your plans because you're on that same page. I think the parent's attitude and participation plays a huge part in what kids make of their schooling. I probably sound completely anti private schooling, but I'm not :) As I said, we all have different priorities and focus in life :) Not that I don't want my kids to shine.. just don't see it as necessary to go into debt for it when plenty of people shine with public education.

I couldn't lump all public teachers into the uninspired box tho. Yes they probably have smaller budgets and less resources, but hopefully we can find a school with passionate teachers :) I'm sure there is good and bad within the private schools too.. and even personality clashes with certain students and teachers.. paying a fee isn't going to guarantee that the teacher will gel with your child and tune in to their talents, or that the teacher doesn't have some issues of their own affecting their performance.

But it's hard to deny the attitude that the private system is fostering.. that their students are more employable etc.. if employers are discriminating on that point alone (maybe that question should be a no-no in interviews just like asking someone's religion, or even their age is!) It sounds like a big marketing campaign actually. It's a bit like these training colleges that guarantee employment. They've struck deals with employers and made a name for themselves, so now they can hike up the fees based on reputation & demand alone.

Sadly that's not the case in the banking industry Bron :( Common practise when the managers are looking for new assistant staff from the Graduate Program is (because there are sooo many applicants) to narrow down the list by using certain criteria. Even though it might have been several years since the applicant was at highschool they will give preference to the privately educated ones. DH says that from experience (amongst all the managers he knows) these are the applicants who have the interpersonal skills required for the job: good grooming... good speech patterns... ability to quickly establish rapport with clients to name a few. But DH works in the private banking sector where the clients are very high net worth clients who generally have very high expectations in these areas. But... still... I'd say "meh" too... who'd want to work for a bank anyhow? ;) but it does happen.

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Sadly that's not the case in the banking industry Bron

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Bath, I think it will be the practice in the banking industry in Australia in a few years. My uncle is a director of one of the large English banks and his bank has done a lot to eliminate the old boy network because they want a higher standard of employee. When he was the director of an Australian bank a few years ago they were just starting to make changes that English banks had made a few years previously. I suspect that in employment too Australia is a few years behind.

I've known lists of applicants to be culled based on their names... if they have an asian name they mustn't speak clear english, so they get struck off the list!! Yes, this prejudice still exists too! (guess that'll be my problem if I want to be employed again now LOL) But then it's no worse than assuming a publicly educated person can't present themselves and deal with clients in a professional manner.

You're right.. who'd wanna work for a bank.. or in accounting anyway LOL ;)

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Bath, I think it will be the practice in the banking industry in Australia in a few years. My uncle is a director of one of the large English banks and his bank has done a lot to eliminate the old boy network because they want a higher standard of employee. When he was the director of an Australian bank a few years ago they were just starting to make changes that English banks had made a few years previously. I suspect that in employment too Australia is a few years behind.

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Very very true. I can attest to that because I've been working for my father (psychologist) for the past 15 years. One of the biggest HR companies in Aus uses his aptitude tests for the upper end employment of all the big industries (hr, mining etc). They came to him years ago because they were sick of losing thousands of $$$ employing people that looked good on paper but not up to scratch in reality.

You know, it's AMAZING how many people in high corporate roles really truly want to be out painting landscapes instead....

It is so interesting how our education experiences are so different. For my first 2 years of high school I went to the 2nd worst school in the area, it was bad, it was falling down, had rat, kids pulled knives on teachers etc. You know what though? I received the best education at that school. The teachers were passionate to teach those who were willing to learn. In year 8 I was top 97% in the state for maths and top 95% for science, I was also Dux one semester. Yes this school had a bad rep, but if you came out of it with good marks it actually made you very employable as it meant you were smart.

For year 9 & 10 I went to one of the top schools in the area as we had moved, it was the public equivalent of a private school. My education plummeted, there was so much more favouritism amongst the teachers who actually tried to be friends with the popular kids. They were so hell bend on school averages that if you were average or doing well you were ingored. A lot of effort was put into the kids who could not wait to leave when they hit 16. They had a horrible self learn system that was just not for me, I lost my love for science and was falling to the bottom of the class (to silly to know that self learn meant cheating, not learning). I was still top at maths, but the maths teacher had his favourites and ignored their cheating, so I looked liked I was bottom of the advanced maths class. It all came out in the maths competitions that I was actually good at maths and his favourites were not.

I deeply regret the change in schools, I was warned by the teachers to not make the change. Anyway what I am getting at? Basically that reputation may not be the best bearing on what is the better school for my children. I would much rather help fund raise for a public school that meets the needs of my children than give money to a private school that may look good for them to have on a resume.

Well a little off topic but I remembered a funny story DF told me bout public/ private.
When he was 18 him and a mate were totally drunk rifling thru clothing bin. Police came along took them back to the police station, asked his mate what school did you go to, he replied B.... grammer, well they were so nice to him drove him home straight away.
Asked Df where he went which he repied B.... High (the local public school). They turned round to him yelled 'get in the cell punk' and locked him up for 4 hours. True story.

I do know too of jobs going to people that had private school background. If it comes down to 2 applicants the one that went to the better school will win out.

If I was interviewing and I had 2 applicants who were equal except for the school I would take the one who went to what I percieved as the lesser school. If one had more oppurtunities but they are both in the same place then the one with less opportunities has come further and thus has more drive and potential.

ETA - If you move to a different state or country there's a good chance that future employers won't have a clue whether your school is private or public. I know QLD and NSW schools but no other states. You could go to the poshest school in Victoria and I wouldn't know it.

Yeah a friend of mines husband does that. He is now in a high up position and started in a local public school that had a bad rep so he likes to give people that chance.

Definatly!
After being to a private primary school 2 public highschools and a private high school i can honestly say that personally I would go into debt for a private school education.

I went to a public primary and a public high school in Nth Qld. When I moved to NSW, no one had any idea and it was never an issue. But if the topic of schools you went to comes up and someone is from Sydney - then I notice they get the third degree and/or the judgement that comes with it!

I'd rather fly under the radar. Plus, never affected my ability to get into university and my post grad degree has a very high value for its type and where I went to get it. ;)

speaking ppl from private schools - i have a colleague who went to a very good private school, but his attitude towards work stinks. palming off work to others, cunning etc. no guarantee that private schools churn better/higher moralled individuals. another colleague went to a very very prestigious brisbane girls private school and she was bullied cos of her ethnic background.
i dont think in our organisation, we really care which school we've been to, there's ppl from all over the world.

when ive told some mothers that we will send ds to a public school, ive had got the reaction ''aaahhhhh' like im such a bad mother for sending him to a public school where as htey are going to send their kids to a prvate school.

at the end of the day, i cannot tell which of my colleagues went to a public/private boarding school unless they tell me. and frankly i dont care. as long as they are good people and deliver and are sincere at work, that's all that matters.

My XH who went to Melbourne's second most expensive private school and was the partner in a top 6 accounting firm said if he was responsible for recruitment he'd employ purely women from public schools (ie. like me) because they're the hardest and smartest workers! Might have just been trying to get into my pants that night though :p

I went to many different schools - we moved a lot. A public primary, then I did school of the air for a while (due to moving to a remote area), then into a private Catholic school for year 7, then for high school it was all private - three different Catholic schools, one of which was a boarding school (once again due to my parents living in a remote area). I would have done well whatever school I went to - I had/have that drive. I am very good at motivating myself and committing to things, and I liked school. But I am still glad I went to private schools. The ones I went to were not ridiculously expensive, nor were they "snooty". They accepted students from all different backgrounds and you didn't have to be Catholic, or even Christian, to go there. But of course you did have to accept the Catholic ethos of the school, which included compulsory religious education classes.

Anyway, I want our children to go to a private high school. I would like to get them into the local Catholic primary, but they are full atm. I don't want to go into debt however - I have made sure that we could afford the fees (which are quite reasonable really) if our kids were enrolled there. DS's current primary school is ok, he is doing really well and the school itself works hard to make sure they foster the right environment for the children - which is hard considering how under-resourced state schools in QLD are (the govt really needs to pick up it's act in this area - there is something badly wrong when a teacher has to use their own funds to resource their classrooms adequately, even to buy hand soap for the children to use) and so I have no problem continuing to send him there (and his sisters) if we don't get offered a place at the Catholic school. But the public high schools in our area leave a lot to be desired. In fact, our local state high has such a bad reputation that many parents send their children to state highs in the next suburb or even further (if they can get them in) rather than send them to the local school. I would rather pay for them to go to the Catholic school.

Divvy - I too am pretty sure I got a couple of jobs thanks to the school I attended and it was made quite obvious as everyone at the group induction for my first past time job went to a private school... :rolleyes:

Shell, I think I know the schools you are talking about! The one where people bribe the principle and move into the zone to get in lol is that the one up the road from me??

Afm...I attended a private school in a "well-to-do" suburb for primary up to year 10 and then did VCE at a public school!! Why? Because the public school offered MORE subjects - the ones I wanted to do and were relevant to my uni choices. I really think I had the best education - the best of both worlds. I loved the school I did VCE at - yeah it was a culture shock and I admit I was part of the minority in that I was a bit of a nerd and cared about my studies. Having said that, a lot of people from the public school didn't go on to tertiary studies whereas most people from the private school did. I found that having come from the private school I had, I was more disciplined and took exams more seriously than a lot of the other kids who'd often use their free periods (or just skip class) to go down to the beach or to the shops, whereas I'd go and study!! :redface:

I don't think I'd be prepared to go into that sort of debt per child for private education. If DS and any future bubs we might have are bright and academic, there a a few selective public schools around that they can sit a test for or if we have the money then we'd consider private school but I don't think it's a neccessity.

Oh and one thing about private schools is the ridiculously expensive uniforms :wall: A summer uniform, a winter uniform, a sports uniform - I remember when I left I didn't even consider selling my uniform and I gave a lot of it to a friend of mine and boy did my mum go ballistic when she found out I gave it away!!

I'm going to see if I can learn to link to another post in another thread because whilst replying to that thread one of the main reasons why I value my DD's independent schools became apparent. It's about the vastly different approach teachers take at my DD's school to the way they teach in (I imagine) most public schools.

ETA: ok... it didn't work. If you're interested check out my post in Brontides thread about Children and Creativity in the Education section.

Bath's post ;)

I don't think that valuing creativity can be divided into public and private. Of the schools that I attended one of the public schools valued creativity the most. In NSW there are 6 public selective creative and performing arts high schools which focus more on creativity than any other schools in the state.

I hope they have changed things now but when I was at school an A in an arts or humanities subject was given less weight in calculating your TE score than an A in maths or science regardless of what school you attended.

LOL Ta Bron... but it was my first (previous) post in that thread... the one explaining about the Reggio method. When I was a teachers' assistant I did professional training which on one occasion involved going to about half a dozen other independant schools in Melbourne who also taught using the Reggio philosophy of respecting children as being in control of the the way they learn and not just blank slates to be "written" on. IYKWIM. I'm not sure if any public school in Melbourne adopts this approach.

Gawd, you'd have to get them earlier than primary school then. My GF walked out of childcare and refused to take home painting because she refused to believe her child had done it.

It was potato stamping, apparently the star was perfect and red, the circle was perfect and blue etc etc etc, so she said either an adult had done for for her, an adult had directed her who to do it this particular way and she knew that if her child had done it herself there would be stuff smooshed and mashed everywhere and they should be ashamed for teaching her child that way AND she didn't want the silly teachers artwork on her walls anyway.

Its funny you mention that Lulu my gf who lives in an affluent area had this trouble with sending her children to kinders and schools. The teachers did the artwork for them because all the parents wanted to think their children were prodigies and send them to Grandma and Grandpa. She went up and DEMANDED that they did not do her work because it was squashing her artistic flair. And they listened but no other parents stopped the teachers from doing it this way.

ooooh that makes MY blood boil! when teachers sabotage a kids work like that! :angry: I loved art as a kid and it never ceased to devastate me when a teacher modified my work... so disrespectful! And too many teachers are standing up there infront of their classes as if they are the font of all knowledge and just seeking to create little clones who can parrot what teacher say/does. That is not learning... and that is the scenario I have had to pay to avoid.


(For people who haven't read the other thread many independent schools in Melbourne adopt the more respectful method of Reggio Emilia whereby a teacher would never even show a child how to draw something let alone draw it for them.)

Reminds me of when I was used as an example of bad art in front of the class as I chose to draw a small elephant as opposed to a big one. Elephants are big, therefore I was meant to draw them big! It was my art and my elephant, I will damn well draw it how I feel like.

My friend was just telling me the other day that the art teacher at her kids' school is in trouble because she was finishing the children's work after classes, and in doing so completely changing it! How wrong is that!

omg, what a massive ego!

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Definately not. Public schools are just as good. I know many parents who have ended up taking their children out of private schools and put them into public. If you really want to go private there are many schools that are much cheaper, wow $20,000, I'm in a bit of shock.

Regards,
Dianne

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I went to a primary school that was "sister" to a very pricey high school. Turned out that the primary school is a few years behind in maths/english/science. My younger sister went the whole of primary school without her dyslexia being recognised and first day in a public high school they picked it up and she was put into a special class once a week to assist her.

IMO the private schools I have heard about fail to meet the recommended curriculum until they hit the last 2 years then they try to play "catch up". So many friends I know had a rough transition into HSC that attended private schools and had issues with exams. Heard of so many success stories come from public schooling.

So, in conclusion, i wouldn't go into debt for a private education and would ask around for a reputable public high school.

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My friend was just telling me the other day that the art teacher at her kids' school is in trouble because she was finishing the children's work after classes, and in doing so completely changing it! How wrong is that!

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the poor teacher - she either was forced to show that her kids were excelling or she didnt want to look like a bad teacher.