Why won't she stay asleep???

Again, I find myself at the end of my rope. I posted a while ago about DD's trouble with sleep - I then had two days of ok night sleep and a few day naps before getting back to what feels like zero sleep.

I feel like I've ruined DD with wrapping her. She generally feeds to sleep, but unless she's really hungry she'll fling her top arm around, scratching, grabbing, pulling, and distracting herself until she comes off. She pulls my nipple all over the place, arches her back and winds up screaming because she's just not getting anything. So I wrap her, and have to stand jigging her until she eventually calms down, latches on and goes to sleep. She's 7.3kgs, I can't feed her standing up forever, but she just won't let me sit. If she's calmed down, she'll come off and scream if I sit down, then latch on again when I stand up. If she's asleep enough I can sit down, but then she still doesn't sleep for long. She'll sleep while she's feeding, then either wake up as soon as she's finished and not even consider going back to sleep, or she'll wake as soon as I move a muscle.

I've tried to wean her off being wrapped to feed, but if she's just going to scream at me I give in and wrap her.

At nights, if she's wrapped she spends a good amount of time grunting, throwing her head from side to side, flinging her legs up and down and trying to get her arms out. When they're finally out she rubs her face - usually rubbing her eyes really hard - and throws them all around, waking herself up. I thought maybe she just doesn't want to be wrapped so tried night sleeping without it, but it just means she throws her arms around and rubs her face even sooner. She goes back to sleep quickly when I feed her, but as soon as I put her down she goes back to thrashing around the cot - wrapped or not. Bedsharing doesn't work, she just hits me and even if I've got my boobs out she can't seem to just find them easily on her own. She starts thrashing around and I have to have the lamp on the whole time to help her.

Last night her longest sleep was maybe almost three hours. Then there was two hours, one hour and this morning two 25 minute sleeps. What the hell?? Now I've just brought her out to the lounge to lay on the floor because I just can't be bothered trying to get her to have more sleep. I'm shattered. She's making this awful squealing noise that she's learnt, she sounds like a fricken babby dinosaur, and just won't let up. I'm beginning to resent her for just not sleeping, not being quiet when she's either asleep or awake, and I'm even hating that she bloody well smiles at me after the absolutely ****ty night we've just had. I just picked her up to stop the noise and she laughed at me. I didn't even smile back.

Until now I've loved every minute of being her Mum, but right now I feel like I'm this close to just yelling at her to shut up, stop squealing and bloody well go to sleep. I hate feeling like this but I just don't know what to do with her :cry:

So DH asked for advice from a mate at work about this. He was concerned that I was so angry when he left for work :( This mate has triplets, so I feel bad that we're saying how bad things are for us - surely he had it way worse.

Anyway, he said to get a sleeping bag. We have one, but that doesn't do anything about her arms. He reckons she'll get used to having her arms out, his three had about a week of waking themselves up but once they were used to it they slept better. Does that sound right?

DD sounds very similar in some ways. I agree that she will get used to having her arms out. DD went through a phase of hating being wrapped, but hitting herself in the face and waking up. We just had to ride it out. Now she can sleep unwrapped, but still sleeps better wrapped. Do you use a dummy? I found what worked for us, was if DD woke herself by biffing herself in the face, we'd pop the dummy in and she'd settle back down. She loves to keep sucking after BF so I figured sucking soothed her.

As for feeding, again, DD was very similar, and still is in some ways. She can really abuse my boob when she wants to! For a while I had to wrap her to feed...now, if she gets like that I'll hold her hands firmly but gently to her chest, as if she were wrapped. With the feeding standing up, do you notice a difference in her position when you're standing? My doula and midwife always told me when I was having BF problems that one of the best ways to get a perfect latch was to begin the feed standing up. When you sit down, what about your body and hers change? Is it possible to replicate the standing position? Sorry if I'm no help, I hope things improve quickly for you.

Yeah I thought about that - what changes when I go from standing to sitting. I know I need to make sure her whole body is turned to me, rather than lying on her back with her head turned. Sometimes though, no matter how careful I am, she just knows. It's like she can sense the change in altitude lol. Also, she seems to sometimes get frustrated if I hold her hands down, as if she wants to throw them around. I don't know. She's doing ok right now, feeding unwrapped and falling asleep, but she's come off twice and both times she woke up when I put her down because of her arms.

We used to have a dummy, but she couldn't keep it in her mouth on her own. It ended up being harder work than it should have been because we had to hold it for her. Now she just won't take one at all.

I guess we might just have to ride it out. Get her used to not being wrapped. She's in a cot next to her bed and sometimes she'll settle if I rub her belly, so I might give that a go. Leave her unwrapped and sleep with my arm in the cot lol.

Thanks PZ :hug:

:comfort: Firstly, huge squishy hugs - you sound so frustrated and upset.

I think getting a sleeping bag is a great idea but what about trying to wrap her differently - like an angel wrap. That way her arms can be moved about but are still secure. It is hard to explain, but if you google angel wrapping you'll see what I mean.

When I was first bf my DD, I had to stand up for her to latch on... it took quite sometime but I eventually eased her into latching on whilst sitting down. I first started by standing up then sort of standing/half sitting, to I eventually was sitting back in the chair. Do you have a rocking chair? Perhaps start by standing, get her latched on then jiggle or rosk her whilst sitting??? I don't know what else to suggest there. Perhaps Barb can come in and offer some tips or advice.

RhiChiChi, you sound so much like me! With the standing, half sitting then sitting lol. It's a work in progress, and unfortunately I don't have a rocking chair, but I'll try working on our positioning.

We did try the angle wrap, but because her hands were then on her chest it was easier for her to pull them up, taking the wrap with her. She kept just pulling the wrap up over her head.

Thanks heaps for the hugs :hug: I was in a pretty bad place this morning but when she just started feeding nicely all those lovely hormones came flooding back.

Can you feed lying down? Ds sleeps on his side on my queen size bed, and I feed to sleep then creep out of the room.

12-14 weeks were shocking with my dd and sleep. She use to wake as soon as the nipple was out of her mouth and wouldn't take a dummy either. It's a big milestone for them developmentally and things did improve with time. I stopped wrapping early on and used a sleeping bag and sometimes used to tuck in a sheet over the top really tight so her arms were contained.

This too shall pass. And yes I have screamed shut up to my baby when dd was that age. Sleep deprivation is horrible. If you lie down with your dd and snooze will she sleep too? Breathing in my babies ears have always helped settle them.

Why do you not want to wrap her? I reckon you go with whatever works. There are also sleeping bage like coccoons (called wombles or similar) that keep arms in you could try.

I'm trying to stop the wrapping cos it's not really working any more. She spends so long just trying to get out of it, and then when she's finally got her arms out she just goes to town throwing them around. It's almost worse than starting off unwrapped - same end result, but a lot of noise and thrashing around trying to get out of it.

Arcadia, she does feed lying down, and I've tried bedsharing with her, but I don't get much more sleep because she still throws her arms around, and somehow she can't latch on by herself in the dark. So I have to leave the lamp on and when she starts to get a bit crazy I help her find it. DH is considering spending a few nights in the lounge so we can have the whole bed - might work better that way and I'll see if she can go unwrapped if I'm right there with her.

Not sure if this applies, but it rang true for me when i was told it. Sometimes, the whole wiggling at sleeptime, loosening off wraps etc can be all part of going to sleep. When i go to bed, i fluff my dooner, bang my pillow, organise the clock so its not in my eyes but i can see it if i want to..... When that is all done, then i can relax and go off to sleep. For some kids, its the same, they need the wiggling and adjusting first and then they can settle in for sleep.

Yeah, she definitely does it when I first put her down for the night. That's not usually so bad, it's not huge movements and it doesn't wake her. But then 30-60 minutes later it gets a lot bigger and a lot louder, and she wakes herself up :( It might be though, that I can settle her before she wakes properly, just by rubbing her belly or something. I dunno, but I'll give it a go.

maybe if you prop her up on a pillow and feed her lying down? that way she is half upright? and she may be able to find your nipple more easily? then once she is asleep remove the pillow from under her? my first DD was very unsettled, and wouldnt sleep for a long period of time. she was only ever calm while i was feeding her ( so that is a bit different to your situation) but i had to put her to sleep by standing up and rocking her for MONTHS! eventually as she got older we were able to change the way she would get to sleep and stay asleep but it is small changes that happend over time. the other thing that we found was that she had silent reflux which was making her so restless, unsettled and unhappy. could you introduce a dummy and rock her to sleep standing? that way you dont always have to use your boobs as the dummy to get her to sleep?

i am sorry that you are having such a rough time, i remember it well. you will get through it. the other thing i wanted to mention was that joining a mothers group helped me vent alot! and maybe even if you havea chat to your GP about how you are feeling that could help also.

oh, i also read 'the no cry sleep solution' which wasnt a miracle but it gave me some ideas and strategies to use.

I don't really have any advice to give you - I wish I had a solution for you!!

I can relate to that feeling of wanting to get cranky with them - I felt that so many times what DD was a baby and had colic.

I just wanted to give you lots of :hug::hug::hug:

Oh :hug: KayTee, here I was thinking Belley was being lovely to you. Not so. :(
I think it is perfectly normal to want to yell at your baby sometimes. They can be difficult creatures and when you are tired everything seems like a big deal. Don't beat yourself up for feeling angry at her this morning. I still haven't had a full night's sleep since Alice was born, and some mornings I feel like total crap, but it doesn't bother me nearly as much as it did with DS1... I guess you just get better at functioning on very little sleep after a while.
I would just ditch the swaddling and let her get used to having her arms out. All three of mine have wrestled with their wraps until they had their arms out so I gave up on wrapping very early with all of them. They do work out how to control their arms. I would also maybe try getting her to sleep without feeding. If she isn't hungry and she is just playing with your boob, then it might be easier without it.

Lol Berrme, she was! I kept wondering what I ever did to deserve such a 'perfect baby'. She was sleeping up to 10 hours overnight, and having at least two 2 hour naps during the day. I remember if I didn't get anything done during her morning nap (cos I was wasting time away on fb & BB) I'd just think "oh well, I'll do it all in her afternoon nap". It was guaranteed. Then she got to around 10-11 weeks and it all went down the drain. I think it started off as a Wonder Week. Last weekend she went through a massive growth spurt - I swear you could watch her grow lol. But yeah, things haven't been so great since then.

I'm not usually so upset and emotional about it. This morning was horrible, I never want to feel that way about her again :( Arcadia, it is nice to know someone else has gotten to that point too, as awful as it is. 2CM, this morning I did consider calling someone about the way I was feeling. DD is booked in for her 4 month vaccinations on the 17th, so if I feel that way again I'll definitely bring it up (we see our GP at the same time).

DH can rock her to sleep, but if I try she just mouths at my top. So I get the breast out for her but she just fusses around on there. We're getting better, but it would be nice if she'd take a dummy sometimes.

Today hasn't actually been all that bad in the end. She's fed unwrapped all day, and we haven't had any crying! Granted, she wakes up when I go to put her down, but holding on to such a little cutie isn't all bad :) We'll see how she goes unwrapped tonight, and if she's up a lot I might kick out DH so DD can have more bed space with me.

The worst part now is though, that after yesterday's whinge about the inlaws not making an effort, they've decided to visit tomorrow. An even though we've told them we have no space and the spare room is full of stuff that's packed for our move and you can't get to the bed, they're insisting on staying over :wall: I'm not in the mood for their crap right now, so I'm thinking DH might have to play mediator for a bit lol.

Hi Kaytee

Just wondering how you're getting on with your LO sleeping? Here's what I found was interrupting our DS's nighttime sleep - some of his behaviour sounds similar to your DD's...

DS always fought his wrap, kicking and grunting till his arms were out - then he'd flail around and wake himself up. I've found the Woombie to be fantastic. It has just enough give that he can move around inside it till he's found a position that he likes (hands curled up in fists under his chin), but it keeps his arms contained and prevents the startle reflex from waking him up. I've just ordered one of their convertible ones, so I can leave one arm out to begin with to transition him out of the swaddling and into a sleeping bag. (The Woombie is also excellent for feeding, keeps him happy and stops the arms flying around!)

I read some of the grunting might be due to him trying to pass wind or poo during his sleep - and apparently doing either while you're flat on your back is near impossible! So we started massage as part of his bedtime routine every night. I actually find that he passes a bit of wind during his last feed, before he goes down for the night, so I think it's working well.

The other reason I suspected he was grunting and squirming was he just needed more room at the bottom of the bassinet, so I moved him up about 5-10cm so he could stretch his legs freely without hitting up against the end of the bassinet (but still close enough to the base of the bed that he can't wriggle down underneath the covers).

I also realised he was hot! He'd squirm and wriggle and wake up because he was too warm. So I've adjusted his layers and now he sleeps a lot more soundly. He would also wake because he was too cold at about 4 or 5am, so I close the door to keep the room warmer after his 3 or 4am feed.

Hope some of these suggestions help a little. I know they've made loads of difference to our nights!

Thanks for thinking of us lee :) We're doing much better at night here. We pushed back starting the bedtime routine from 6 to 7, and she goes to sleep much easier. We went cold turkey with stopping the wrapping - took her a day or two to get used to it, but now she seems much happier without it. She still has night when she's up every two hours but it seems to coincide with a crappy day. Last night was awful getting her settled thanks to vaccinations, but once asleep she slept for 6 hours. She generally sleeps between 7-10 hours overnight, so we're happy there :)

During the day she feeds really well. She likes to stroke me, so that gives her hand something to do now she's not wrapped, and it seems to relax her. I no longer need to start standing up, she just latches on really well and away we go :) She'll still only sleep on me - wakes as soon as I make any attempt to move her - but I've just accepted it and we settle in for snuggles now. She's happy when she's awake so I just take her from room to room to do what I need. I have ordered two of Elizabeth Pantley's No Cry Sleep Solution books though, just to see if there are any tips that may work for us.

I also realised that she's the opposite of your DS - while he was getting hot, she was getting cold. Our room starts off at 20 degrees, which is perfect to begin with, but it was quickly getting down to 17 and then she'd wake up. Now that we've fixed that she's doing much better!

Thanks again for everyone's advice :)

Hey lovely glad to hear things are a little better :). Just wondering when she's squirming around does she arch back away from you at all? During or after a feed? Is she crying when she wakes up at night after only being down for 30-60mins? And are you burping her after every feed? When she's squirming & crying does her tummy feel tight/bloated?

Some things sound similar to Mitch with his reflux. If he has wind he'll wake shortly after being put down at night. He has bugger all sleep during the day normally too. If you find the day sleeps aren't getting any better I would highly reccomend getting your hands on a baby hammock. It's the only way i can put mitch to sleep during the day right now. He gets tired & rubs & scratches at his face so I put him in the hammock & bounce it till he goes to sleep. He might cry for a little while but he soon goes to sleep, if he stirs I quickly dash over & gently start it bouncing again & he drifts back off. Its not much but it gives me enough of a break. If you're REALLY lazy like me...set it up so you can just reach it with your foot at the end of the couch & bounce it with your foot while you lay back & relax lmao :P

As far as putting her to sleep goes have you tried putting her up on your sholdor & firmly patting her bum? Firm enough so she jiggles a little. Thats the only thing that works for me. If I lay Mitch down & rock he also looks for booby lol

And Ive also cried & yelled at my baby too dahl, sleep deprivation is a horrible thing on its own but when you also have a little person with needs & wants, lack of sleep is so much worse. Im sure just about everyones been there