Do you think having children and how many should be based on how much money you earn?

ok,

so this is kind of a vent but I truly am interested in peoples opinions on this subject, I felt general chatter was the more appropriate place for this post as it is a question, but if any mod feels it needs to be moved thats okay too,


I receved a reply from my SIL via email as we had been chatting, we had been chatting about our plans etc and when we want to buy a home and so on, and she said

~quote~
A three or four year plan is the way to go especially if you are planning
on buying in ****** cause it is not cheap, also banks normally wont
loan to people unless they have been in a stable job for at least 2-3
years now. Also you might get a surprise at how stretched things will get
with a extra child in the house and then you have to work out how much
you can afford etc to live without.
~end quote~

this coming from someone who has never owned a home, or had any children, they are due to have their first in a few months,

I just wondered am I feeling offended toward her comments because it is true and perhaps this is how people actually feel in the big wide world,

I dont know,

my opinion, children do not cost that much, yes they do cost more than if you lived on your own but you adapt to your circumstances and budget etc and get bye, that you live to what you have and do what you can for your children but if you cant afford to have to most expensive car seat or cot or brand name clothing you go with out it, am I right ????

I feel confused,

perhaps I am feeling trhis way because I feel the words are my MIL's not SIL's and I hate people talking about us, I am more offended at the last comment about us being suprised as to how much a third child will stretch us financially,

the rest of her reply makes me laugh as she truly has no idea and I know this because we have owned a home before and I have also spoken to banks etc and know what we neeed to do in order to acheive our goal.

what do you think???

do you think she is right in what she is saying or do you think that you make do with what you have and do the best you can.

any opinions will be appreciated and no offence will be taken,

TIA

Amym
I think that you do need to consider your financial position when considering children.
I think it depends on what you want to provide for your children too and the lifestyle you wish to keep.
In saying that you will cope the best way you can regardless of how much $$ you have or how many children you have.
I dont think there is a right or wrong answer to this question and it all depends on your love for the children and what you want out of life in general.

We would love to have about 4 children but of course we cant afford a house to put them all in so will probably stop at two. If circumstances change in the furture then we would maybe look as starting ttc again.

I agree. People always said to me oh kids are so expensive you wont be able to live blahh blahh blahh but theyre not as expensive as everyone makes it out to be! Sure if you add it up over 18 years then it will look like a heap but thats over 18 years! You make do with what you got.
We currently rent and will be until we've finished having kids and i go back to work full time. Theres no way we would afford buying anything in Sydney otherwise..

I agree with your sisters comment, all things being equal.
Maybe she could have phrased it differently, email having no emotion etc.
Only you know your sister (well you know her more than us..) and how she would have meant you to take this comment.

Of course, there are also cases I know personally where all things are not equal, and where waiting to get everything else in order, house, finances etc contributed to (the waiting that is) fertility issues worsening and her eventual successful pg taking 10 years when if they'd tried earlier things may have been easier.

It comes down to what you want, what your values are etc, no one else can decide those for you.

I know personally, we drastically underestimated the financial difference having a baby would make, and I thought I was being overly generous in my estimations before we had DS.

(Young) children don't cost that much that is true, but I am certainly not looking forward to clothing 3 teenagers in 10 years, especially when I wont be back in the work force as such, and having 3 growing teenage boys eat me out of house and home every week ;)

An extra child here would mean a bigger house, bigger car etc something that we can't do on 1 wage. As it is, we would love a bigger car ready to transport around 3 boys to various sports etc but we simply can't afford that and our mortgage.

Love

I mostly dont agree with this. Sure you have to make sure you can provide the necessities for your baby. But from my DH & I point of view (we are not planning to have any more than little Iggy) we thought about waiting so I could do my PhD and he could work more and we could have more money but have decided that we would do it now. DH has dropped some of his work so he is home a lot, and I have taken time off and then will start my PhD in a couple of months from home. We will be reasonably poor (we have a housemate to help pay the rent) for now but have a lot of time to spend with our little one. Sure you need to be able to provide for your child but above that I dont think is necessary. Just my opinion. :)

I believe finances must come in to it. It depends on what you are planning on doing. Renting with one parent staying at home is certainly a cheaper option but once a mortgage comes into the equation everything changes.

Most people who have mortgages these days have to have two incomes in order to pay the average $600 weekly payment (that may just be a figure for Victoria, I'm not sure). For many people that is one whole income gone on the mortgage, then there are child care fees, or after school care, education expenses, general costs of living, car payments, petrol, not to mention food to think about.

For each extra child you have your costs do go up - more food, more clothes, more charges for education and uniforms even at public schools, more ballet or swimming lessons etc.

Then of course when they get to be teenagers they want mobile phones and trendy clothes (actually these things are often wanted way before they get to their teens).... more expense. A few more years on and then you have the added expense of giving them a university education.... and we all want the best for our children don't we?

If I am lucky enough to get a pg to stick I am intending on just having one child.... this would be the case even if I was younger. My DF has a step daughter so we pay child support, we have a mortgage and we both work full time. Adding just one extra child to this will stretch our finances but we would still be OK I think. If I was to have twins we would probably have to sell our home and rent until they went to school as we would find it very difficult to pay the mortgage and two sets of day care fees as well as general living expenses. If one of us was to stay home then we could not afford the mortgage and living expenses, so we would have to rent.

Anyway, I do think money comes into it.

I think that finances are something to consider when planning kids.. only really to ensure that you will be able to afford to live off one income for the time that one of you is not working and you are waiting for a childcare spot to become available before returning to work... that you can afford to paythe rent/mortgage on a home of a suitable size and all that... but really, you make do with what you have dont you?
I guess it also depends on your lifestyle - do you want to have the best of everything or is second hand stuff ok, do you want to go on lots of holidays etc... I mean, Claire is not that expensive. i think its just that we are earning heaps less now with me not working which was hard to get used to.
We're definately not rolling in cash.. We've got a mortgage, and I am not working, so its just DH's income we live off - and yeah its tight but not impossible - we just have to really watch our spending habits. So i suppose that yeah money is something to look at because you want to be able to make sure you can provide your kids with everything they need. I know that two years ago, we were not in any financial position for me to be a sahm.

I think finances do come into it, but not because children "cost alot" per se in terms of handing over cash for this and that every day.
For us, where we've noticed it is in our reduced earning capacity.
We are not prepared to put our kids in childcare full time, which means one or the other of us has to be at home. Later in the year when my maternity leave finished I'll only be going back to work part time. When Emily was a baby DH worked part time.
And I guess the more kids you have the longer your "out of action" until they reach school age.
We've decided to stop at two simply because by the time our youngest is school age and I can go back to full time work, I'll be 38 years old. On balance, when we think about the other things we want for our family in the future (house, decent education primarily) we will be hard pressed to do those things if I'm out of the workforce for too long.
Just our situation, everyone's is different. It's a tough decision.

I do think finances come into it.. i don't think any old tom,**** or harry should just have a baby because they want to or feel like it if they only have $15 to live on for a fortnight pre-baby! What happens if the child falls very ill and needs hospital attention for months on end? I mean these were all things we considered when we decided to start trying. I don't neccesarily think you need to be made out of money, because it is true you adjust to whatever income you have.. but i do think you need to be sensible about it! And i don't think when people tell us that 'Gee.. kids are expensive' are referring to their initial years of life - i think it's more so when they are older.. constantly growing out of shoes and clothes, paying for school and books, paying for sports and dance classes, tutoring, supporting a few of their whims.. etc.. Do you remember what it was like being in school and always wanting clothes to stay in fashion or to be cool and stay with the trends? It's going to be worse for our kids! I don't know about you ladies out there, we have 4 morgages to pay off, plus all the other things we have comitted ourselves to in life.

I agree with RayRay, so much depends on your values and no one can decide them for you.

We can't technically afford our third child but for us life is more about intagibles than material wealth. I'm not saying everyone should live like this though. For example, we value the fact that i am a SAHM than owning our own home (we rent). We value providing our children with the best education that is available than stuff like new furniture, techno gadgets etc.

These are just 2 example of intangibles that we make huge sacrifices for. you can't touch them or see them like a house but they are way more important to us.

Fortunately DH is in a very well paid job with a very bright future so, sofar we have been ok financially, just... it's like God (or whatever) is granting us just enough money to get by... members of the Mastermind group who know about Money Miracles will know what I mean ;) So we didn't hestitate in having a third child despite not being able to technically afford one.

I think so much comes back to your beliefs... spiritual or otherwise. We simply have faith that if we are making good decisions and are good people all will fall into place. yeah, maybe we are deluded... but maybe no more deluded than my parents who did everything by the book financially and accumulated wealth, a home, a boat, holidays etc... but lost it all when they got divorced. To me there is little security in "stuff"... it can all be lost overnight... at least no one can take away my DDs private education, and her absolute LOVE of school and learning.

Sorry I've waffled on a bit here...

But to answer your question: yes, children do cost a LOT. it's always better to over-estimate than under-estimate... but then again... love will always find a way :)

We are taking our finances into consideration for our future plans, I don't think our first baby will make too much of an impact, but once we think about having more than one (and we hope for four) things change. We would need to consider a bigger house as we are already going to be cramped with one baby and if we do have four we will need a bigger car.

I don't think it is the cost of providing for the children as such that you need to worry about but you need to consider the bigger picture to be able to acheive what you want, but your sister could have talked to you about it in a conversation not an email.

We actually found that having the first child had the greatest impact... you had to buy all the basics (which subsequent children could then use). A good tip is to buy good quality items that will last the distance if you plan to have more children.... and gender neutral items... I did these things intuitively and am reaping the rewards now :)

Well we've done the 'unthinkable' and are having our 4th child. Bath is so right when she says 'techinically not being able to afford it' but I don't want to regret not having this child so we can be better off financially. So we now have to get the larger car etc and all the other costs that a child has. But I think that it all depends on the lifestyle you want for those children - if you want the private schools and yearly 2wk holidays, then yeah, having more than two (or 3 if you are in a high income) would mean you have to sacrifice having a large family to keep the lifestyle. But if those things aren't important to you, then go with your heart.

I saw once on a Dr Phil show that no matter how much your income is, you will always spend the same percentage of it before putting any in savings. EG if you earn $50k and spend $45k of it every year, you will still do the same if you earn $100k, kwim? It is simply a matter of knowing how to effectively manage what you do have.

Oh, and I don't know what she is on about with the banks, they seem to just love throwing money at people to get them to take a loan with them. LOL

Bathsheba, its like you are reading my mind, I wish I could have said it that well, you said it perfectly and I couldnt agree more.

We are the same we value things differently, with my SIL she values her 'stuff' very highly and wants to live a life of holidaying and shopping, so for them having a big family is not suitable for the lifestyle they want to live, me I want a big family, I want family to come first and please dont take that the wrong way I value everyones opinions and beleifs we are all very different and thats what makes us interesting,

I am not one to really care alot if we dont have all the flashy furniture and cars etc, I am happy renting, I just like the bills to be paid and food on the table and thats about it,

I have been on both sides I had Peiter when we were dead broke, some weeks we couldnt afford nappies but had to find the money somewhere and it was really really hard on that side of it I would not wish that on anyone, it puts so much extra stress on you as a mum and just a person in general,

I think in one way finances are important in that you need to have enough to provide for your child but if that means going without new clothes each month or not shopping all the time etc then that is fine as I regard that as non nessesity, but having been in the position we were in when we first had Peiter it was not a nice feeling at all, and if we had have planned things it would have been very different ( he was a suprise bubba )

we are blessed now with DH working in a fantastic job with so much room to grow he is on a very high wage and we are in a postion to afford another child and save at the same time so we are lucky in that way now but having said that I dont think you have to have loads of money to have children.

My SIL would have meant me to take offence she is a know it all LOL and loves to be the first to say things iukwim, I was offended but not offended if that makes sence because I understand what kind of life is important to her and her DH, I dont judge her on that but its hard for her to understand how non important 'stuff' and material things are to me and DH, we have a crappy lounge and a banged up dining suite LOL but thats okay, we plan on getting something a little better once we have saved a little more, but in reality its ot something that bothers me alot, her house looks like a show home its beautiful, they are only renting but have spent thousands upon thousands on furniture etc but again I dont think badly of them because it has made them happy.

ETA Sherie I also feel the same as you we want 4 children for the same reason you said and I dont know if I can finish having my babies at 3 kwim so its on a we will wait and see basis LOL and yeah I had to laugh at her comment about the bank casue I know how unture that really is, she is a bit of a drama queen and loves to make things worse than they actually are hehe

I know what you mean by 'unthinkable' Sherie... most of our friends think we are crazy having more children and not even owning our home. Pfft! I say. Paying off a mortage is just as much a "gamble" as our choices.... interest rates are bound to rise and what's going to happen to all the people who can't afford to make them? They will have to sell/downsize etc...

Please, don't get me wrong, I think it's very financially savvy to budget wisely and plan for your future etc. But at the end of the day (I think) living the "mainstream dream" of homeownership etc means that many families are sacrificing the intangibles of life (being at home when your kids get home from school etc) for something, that, at the end of the day doesn't ensure any more quality of life for a family.

DH and I always say to friends and ourselves (when things get tough money-wise) that "oh well, we can always afford to go bush and live a simple life and that would be ok...". Sure we have financial goals... but the main goal is that we, as a family unit, do not place undue pressure and stress on each other to achieve material wealth. There is more to life :)

ETA: missed you last post Amym.... reading it now!

I was beginning to feel like a lone duck until I read Bath's reply and couldnt agree more. I think sometimes the more emphasis that is placed on money and material gains, the more important it becomes to you. Darren and I are lucky to share the same philosophy in life and while we do like having the latest things, its not the be all and end all. We have cheap family holidays (camping) make wonderful memories for the children with wonderful birthdays and parties and they want for nothing....all this with 4 children and my darling husband secretly hoping i will say yes to a 5th! I so believe in throwing out gratitude for the blessings we have, and we always seem to make do! So while your SIL might have a point, you arent jumping into anything naively, and I would probably resent the implication that you arent considering all your options....getting a homeloan is not the most important thing in the world.

Jo

Good on you Jo :) It sounds like you have a wonderful family and some very happy kids. Yep, home loans are over-rated* LOL and guess what! My DH is a banker! He can see the craziness in most families forking out thousands and thousands in interest (to banks) to the detriment of a truely wealth-building investment like education. Educate yourself and the world is your oyster. Deny the advertiser's seductive arguements to soothe your ego with purchasing material goods that do little other than to help you keep up with the Jones.

* Over the past 20 years if the average family had bought shares (blue chip) instead of a home-loan they would be vastly more wealthy then they are today. This is where we have our nest egg.... and no repayments.. just dividends :)