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What are your thoughts on this statement:
"Giving birth is a natural process that should not be interfered with unless absolutely medically necessary"
I recently read some survey results where this was posted elsewhere in the US and I was extremely surprised at the response...
I agree with this statement too...
Had Indah not stopped breathing & not aspired meconium, the midwives would have jusat been there to cheer me on (so to speak).
With DD#1 we were not really left alone at all, to labour, but I ended up being induced due to Maddison stressing out & myself not knowing what, where, how or who I wanted to be doing etc...
With DD#2, we went in to labour ward was assessed at what was happening & left to buzz at my own will, Mum, Dh & I were left in the labour room for a good hour alone for me to walk around & just breath through my contractions at 12 (midnight) I felt something more was happening & the midwife came in to check the situation, my waters broke by them selves as I climbed up on bed & the midwive kept encouraging me wasnt til a few min's later they couldnt detect Indah's HB betc that they started doing the necessary things to deliver me a healthy beautiful baby girl... I enjoyed the experience so much more!!!
I agree with this statement 100%
If i had know when i was pg with #1 what i know now, i would never have needed the c-section, i am doing even more research this time and i will not have anything done that is not medically necessary
Oh I totally agree. Our bodies are designed to do their own thing, with regards to childbirth. Birth isn't like a disease or an illness, it's a natural process. Animals give birth without intervention we shouldn't HAVE TO have intervention unless it's necessary either.
Kell - the response from the US doesn't surprise me in the slightest. If those birth programmes on Foxtel are anything to go by, the highly medicalised birth is very popular there.
I saw one the other day where the patient said to the doctor "I want to get up and walk around to help with the pain". He said "Why would you want to do that?"
:shock:
I do agree with the statement and in hindsight, that was exactly how my births were (expect for Paige's towards the end).
I also ticked "unsure". While I agree that ideally, birth shuld be as natural as possible, if I hadn't gone with my intuition and agreed to have a C-Section for my second child Zeke, he would have died during birth due to severe congenital heart defects that were not picked up on any ultrasound beforehand.
So even though there was a medical reason, it was an "unknown" one when I made my decision. At the time, I just felt really strongly that I had to have a C-Section, regardless of the risks involved.
I agreed, but not sure I really fit into that category either. If you look at my reason for a C/S it wasn't absolutely medically necessary. But in my case it was the best thing to do & I don't regret it....so I'm not sure what my answer should have been...
But doulas don't do that Fletch ;) They support you for the birth you choose. Not that many women wanting elective caesareans feel that a doula is necessary but some do.
Click my sig and find out ;) Plenty of doula articles on the main site too, even in the men's section now!
We'll push a woman if that's what she wants, that's why we meet with them prior to birth to acertain exactly what she wants. I haven't had one person complain that I pushed them too hard. My teacher confesses to being a ***** (in a nice way of course) but that's why she gets so many women wanting her support (I would love her at my next birth) - she'll push them to the max and that's why they love her. Each to their own though, we all want our own experiences.
With changing your mind about drugs, you have to establish with the woman what her 'red light' is. We learn all this in our course, we don't just waltz on in proclaiming to be experts or know what's best - training is well developed in this area to learn the art of support. We are not experts on medicine and only learn about support and they way birth can be if left alone, of course when also to require the need of intervention. If we weren't good at it, no-one would be doing it and it wouldn't be growing so fast as a profession too... and given a recent survey that has just circulated in birth circles, more women are feeling pressured for intervention including caesars. So what do you do if you don't have support? You agree thinking that's the only option for you.
So yes, depends on the birth you want, the majority of women wanting a doula want a natural birth and want to be pushed ;)
ps. In the US survey I saw, only 45% agreed with the statement. Now that is scary...
You can have a Doula no matter what birth you have, most of the births I have attended have been under the care of public or private Obs. Your Ob will only be there when you are pushing, if he makes it.
The whole idea of a Doula is to be there during those crucial parts when you don't have anyone there, i.e. most of your labour unless you are being monitored by midwives. The way you labour and the experience you have during this time makes all the difference for the outcome. If you have a Doula there supporting you and pushing you, then you are more likely to get your vaginal birth and much less intervention - I am sure you have read the stats.
If you don't have anyone there supporting, motivating and pushing you (if thats what you want), you are more likely to agree to pain relief and intervention. It's just like a personal trainer. With a good support and 'coach' you can achieve much more.
Interesting, the Ob that I had wasn't there most of the time just popped in and out, most of the time whilst I was pushing I just had a midwife, who was wonderful and most lovely :D:
Yeah Obs don't often make the pushing in my experience as a mother or Birth Attendant LOL!!! When you are pushing everyone else is there but the OB ROFL... Of course your midwife will be there when pushing, I don't make it my job to be catching babies ;) Although I do know of a few Doulas who had to catch the baby as no-one else was available!!! :) What an honour that would be. I'll have to wait a few years to do that, I am hoping to study midwifery too, but I think I would miss being a Birth Attendant. I like being there from start to finish, I would hate to see a woman from the start of labour but not be there for her during the birth or after :)
Just thought I better clarify too, all Doulas / Birth Attendant are different. Unfortunately nothing is regulated or bodied, so anyone can claim to be a Doula. There are different courses available, all of varying time durations and requirements, so it's always important to find out where they are trained and what the course involved. Some Doulas will help with the experience mostly, and some will be more inclined to help acheive the birth you want and push you more if you like. So that's why it's important to interview several attendants if you want one and see which one offers what you would like :)
I actually found all the midwives I had wonderful I ended up having 3 in total, one was a student. The student actually tried to coax me into other avenues of pain relief but I kind of shouted her down with "NO I WANT AN EPIDURAL" LOL.
So birth attendants aren't allowed to "catch" babies or do they just not do it? Like if the mother was close to the BA could they not ask for them to "catch" the baby??
LOL I have hijacked my own thread!!!! :cryinglaugh:
Birth Attendants are not medically trained - we can catch them if no-one else is there and able but normally in a hospital a midwife will be closeby. I heard one story of a mum at home in the bath and babe came far too quick and the Birth Attendant had to catch - she was a single mum so who else would have done it?!
I guess you could ask the hospital/midwife for permission for someone else to catch baby, but I would assume if it wasn't the attendant, the mother would want dad to catch baby...
Oh and I use the word 'catch' as opposed to deliver. :) No-one does any work birthing that baby apart from mum ;)
PMSL there's no way Ben would catch a baby, he didn't even look down there, he stayed up my end the whole time :D
Good to know that a BA can catch if you want ;) (maybe)
Yep thats cool Fletch, thanks for sharing! I love it when people voice opposing opinons to each other (in a nice way!!) as it helps give me an understanding of why they feel that way and to see things from other perspectives. After all, women are the people I need to explain what I do so your opinions and thoughts are important to me :)
I understand that some women want elective caesars. I also believe that the main reason for this is fear. So if we can have a chance at helping to conquer that fear in any way then it's worth it... we are just isolated as a population, intervention at an all time high and in an epidemic of fear. Not a good scenario.
ROFL @ Ben!!! John spent so much time at the end of the bed waiting for something to happen I would have slapped him if I could have reached - I wanted to squeeze his hand off!!! PML...
Hahahahahahahaha PMSL. Ben spent a lot of time reading the paper and running to get more tickets for parking :cryinglaugh: He was a good "come on push" coach though and "you're doing really well, I'm so proud" coach.
My 2nd midwife, Lucy, was sent on a break just before I was taken away for intervention. When she found out she cried as she had wan't to stay with me and she did not know where they had taken me when she came back.:
I like being there from start to finish, I would hate to see a woman from the start of labour but not be there for her during the birth or after
I disagreed 8-[
When I had my epidural it was not medically necessary, but IMO it was absolutely totally necessary for my mental state. I was not coping well at all after having contractions for 26hrs and less than 5hrs sleep in the previous 48hrs & I felt that I needed it as I was at the stage of completely freaking out.
If you were to class mental health reasons in the area of "medically necessary" I would most definately change my answer to agreeing with the statement.
I know that support is a big thing for the mental aspect of labour & birth, but I had a wonderful midwife that was with me the whole time, Aaron & my mum telling me how fantastic I was doing, but it wasn't enough. I was freaking out & needed something to calm me down and relax, which was the epidural as it gave me a break from the contractions.
Awwwww Sarah, you needed a Doula ;) Often thats what happens - women freak out (and or the partner!) in fear or without stability in the support team, so the woman wants out and goes for pain relief - which is why I am so passionate about this. Our partners are great and essential to have with us but aren't experienced at birth. Our mothers can be great, but if they haven't had a good experience or are not experienced in the kind of birth we want, (e.g. mum had caesars, you want natural) this can be a problem. You'd be surprised how many mums I know of that joke about their daughters thinking they will need an epidural to cope...:
It can also be a problem when any of them can't stand seeing you in pain and want to get you out of that situation. They need to know that it's good, productive pain.
It's just getting this across to everyone and explaining what we do - unfortunately it's harder with first timers who are more insecure or nervous about someone else being there, when they are the ones that need lots of support (not that anyone needs any less).
Like Fletch said, it's easy not to be informed... but it's just as easy to get informed if you know where to go ;)
I absolutely think birth is natural and having done it once now i think i'd be cool about birthing alone even. DP was the bst support i could have had, he prevented me from freaking out and when i lost it a little he got me grounded again in between. At one point i was telling him i HAD to go get an epi as i was so scared of rupturing my insides (didn;t realise when my body said i MUST push i could push! LOL!). I expect i will birth free next time anyway given my active labour this time was only 3 hours. Though i was feeling it before i now know which sensations mean things (i.e. there was definately a time when pshing gently felt a little better, because her head was against the sacrum, and when pushing hard was imperative because her head was coming down the birth canal) and so i'd be less inclined to panic and more inclined to trust my body.
I am in awe of the body in fact. Biologically, it has performed miraculous things this last few days (looking at my football boobs! LOL!). I never really knew if not pushing would be dangerous and though Esme was a bit stressed it does show that if you don;t even get the urge, the baby will still come.
DP was my DOula and he was a toughie! He told me after there was no way he was going to let me give in. He sanctioned the gas and air only because we all thought i had premature pushing urge which was potentially a bigger threat to our home birth than my having a little gas&air to help me cope.
If i'd known i was about to deliver i wouldn't have bothered with it.
Hana
Im in the unsure catergory & borderline disagree.
For similar reasons to Fletch. Birth can be a completely natural process and a lot more friendly on some womens bodies .. but if the choice is made with great thought and information, the way a baby enters the world is the mothers choice and just as special as "natural"
I just wanted to add that this is not a poll which is designed to say one birth is better over the other, but just to hear your thoughts on the statement, based on your experiences and what you have carried with you.
Having absolutely no idea, I was drugged up to the max with my first and I really regret that as I couldn't hold her after she was born because I was so out of it and she needed O2 and a bit of coaxing to breathe. If I knew then what I know now, it would never have been that way.
I choose to go totally drug free and my husband is the best "Doula" anyone could ever have. I'm very lucky there. Although with my 2nd they told me after 10 hours of labour that I needed a C/S and asked if I wanted an epidural, hmmm, Knowing that I was against them Hubby said "Oh no she doesn't want one of them", lol. He didn't realise it was an epi or a general, I chose the epi, lol. but no need Had an almightly contraction and she turned inside me and poped out in one go lol.
My OB is very aware that I don't really want him near me, just want him to supervise and collect his big fat check from my health insurance when its all done. I do have the gas on hand and in my birth plan I have the phrase It's a woman's perogative to change her mind and I may do it without any notice, lol. Always gets a laugh out of my midwives with that one. I wouldn't even have an OB ( He is a good guy) if it wasn't for my choice of hospitals. I prefer midwives and my hubby. He gets me through, he keeps me focussed and I zone very nicely.
I Believe that Birth is about me and the baby and not about medical staffs comfort and convenience. We'll do it in our time and on our terms and as long as we are both in a happy healthy state there is no need for them to intervene.
I stopped watching the birthing shows, when I was pregnant with my 3 yo. They made me soooooo mad, portraying epidurals, episiotomies and laying on your back with your legs in the air as normal birthing practices. I feel that US OB's have scared women into having these medical births of which a high percentage end up having Emergancy C/S and the next time don't even really get the choise for a VBAC they are basically forced into having Elective C/S.
I don't think they realise how unneccessary all that medical intervention is and that the driving force behind it all is LITIGATION. The OB's are just scared of being sued.
I agree with the statement. We certainly were designed to give birth naturally. We are fortunate to live in a time where medical intervention is available when it's necessary.. no doubt it saves many lives of mums & bubs, but I don't think intervention should be used just coz we can, I agree it should be for medical reasons.
My DH was a fantastic doula! hehe. When I was in a bad way just before the pushing stage, and saying I just can't do this anymore, he reminded me we knew it would get like this (ie transition where you feel out of control) and he basically told me that I HAVE to do it, I don't have a choice. He reminded me of what my body was doing and where it was up to, to picture the baby getting in position to come out etc etc and reminded me of the reasons we didn't want drugs, to have a bright alert baby. Altho right at the end before pushing he did ask me if I wanted the gas.. I think he thought I was dying or something LOL coz I was just flaked out between contractions and just completely worn out. But otherwise he completely supported me to stay drug free. He was also good at making all the pushing noises along with me! LOL. I teased him about that afterwards saying he made more noise than me!
We were pretty much left alone to labour.. which I was surprised at, I actually expected the midwife to be around more (she was there throughout the entire pushing stage tho). But it was good just being me & DH.
I'd do it again ;)
That's pretty standard in hospitals Ivana - they will be there for pushing the majority of the time and very intermittently other times. Most people expect them to be there much more hence think a Doula isn't needed because a midwife will be there. Can I please quote you for an article?
(Yes I know some of you had fantastic midwives in birth centres who were there the whole time but this is typical of a major hospital birth so you don't need to post to tell me otherwise ;))
Anyways, sorry to distract from the topic, carry on! I'm enjoying reading your thoughts and very glad we don't have the ratio the US website had.
Yup - quote away :)
They gave the impression in the class that they'd be there to suggest alternative positions for pain reief etc.. but they weren't, she never gave suggestions to hop in a bath or anything.. so I suggest that partners be well read up on positions for labour coz I know I wasn't thinking about it.. it was DH that got me standing up and swaying and stuff. Midwife just popped in occassionally to see how I was and look at the monitor.
btw.. it didn't worry me, in fact looking back it was good being just me & DH. I wasn't particularly frightened or worried through the experience.. perhaps if I was they might have looked after me more? But we were doing fine :)
OK - I've thought about this for a few days now about what I want to say and here it is.
To be giving birth is a natural procedure BUT I would rather have medical people around me. To say its a natural thing to me suggests that we would be happy to give birth in the middle of a jungle with noone else around us but a birthing partner, and I find that absurd.
I want the following through all my births:
Blood pressure monitoring throughout pregnancy and labour
Temperature taken
Foetal heart rate checked during labour
Ultrasounds to say everything is going OK during pregnancy
Blood tests to check everything is OK in my body
A theatre on call to get the little bugger out of me if for some reason something goes wrong.
And this is the clincher for me - how can we tell if something is going wrong without the medical intervention. I personally am not prepared to take that risk, and will never have a home birth. But that is just me.
I would rather not have had an epidural and forceps delivery in theatre, but I did, so now - a year on, I'm over it. Seriously doesn't phase me in the slightest. Did I think for one second I could have gone on without it? - not on your nelly, so I'm OK with it, my body is fine, my duaghter is great and all is well in my world ;)
So - I suggest that any reliance on modern medical instruments (blood pressure, blood tests, monitoring, doepplers, u/s) means that everyone needs the medical profession for their birth. But again - thats just me :D
Fi
Fi, just checking, you do know that when you have a homebirth, a midwife looks after you through regular homevisits (ante-natal visits) and also for the birth? Most homebirthing women also have a doula or birth attendant too. Private midwives are not silly, if something isn't looking right they will suggest you transfer to hospital and call ahead, and most of the time in the same time you can be prepped for theatre.
If homebirth was so dangerous, do you think we would hear about deaths on the news? My teacher who has been a very busy birth attendant (mainly working with midwives at homebirth) has been doing it for 26 years - and only two deaths - both in situations where the babies had diagnosed conditions where they knew they would die shortly after birth. (i.e. tumor etc).
The WHO has said that a caesar is probably necessary about 10% of the time, when hospitals have usually have caesar rates of 30% and more, I think one in QLD has 60%. The thing is though, if it looks like you need one prior to the birth, a midwife will tell you and will not take on high risk patients - they know what they can and can't do.
All this said, you need to birth where you feel comfortable. Homebirth will not happen if you do not feel safe, labour will be slow and / or stall (flight or fight response) and same goes with being in hospital. So you need to do your research (then most of that fear will be diminished) and decide where you want to give birth. These days, everyone knows you need to hurry and choose and Ob and a hospital or you could miss out so many don't have the opportunity to even look at their options. But I guess this isn't about homebirth, not even natural birth but letting nature take it's course which can take place ANYWHERE - hospital or at home... do you know that CTG machines can be up to 50% inaccurate? So do you feel satisfied soley relying on these machines and having procedures as a result that you may not really need? Did you also know epidurals are related to almost all possible interventions you might have? So what happens in labour has a massive impact on what happens at birth.
I would be interested to see what you think if you were to read 'The Thinking Woman's Guide to a Better Birth' by Henci Goer. She's actually coming out to Australia to speak in Geelong in July, can't wait.
Hi Again,
Yes I do realise all about homebirths etc (if you recall Trish one of our belly buddies had her home waterbirth, so we ALL felt like we were a part of that one ;) ) I am also of the understanding that homebirths are not applicable for all people. I believe that if you are in any way high risk, these are not applicable for you, nor are you able to if you go too late, or too early (very small window of opportunity of about 4 weeks I think? Also first time mums aren't allowed to have them. And I dont think you are allowed to VBAC at a homebirth?
Now I'm sure this all varies according to the private midwife you choose (there may be some variances to the above) but it does suggest to me (and many other parents I have had this exact conversation with) that the stats seem to be slightly stacked when referring to homebirths. After all, these are the same births that would more than likely have gone to plan in hospital as well. Of course there aren't many complications with home births when you are choosing the optimum case to study. So very likely to get great stats for homebirthing, which is fine, but for a scientific mind like mine, we are trained to look beyond the numbers.
When the CTG started to fail during my labour (I was on my side to try to aid Jenna to turn) they inserted a scalp probe which was far more accurate (even though it felt TOTALLY queer :shock: ) . This told them exactly when her heart was having a few problems, particularly when they tried to turn her by hand as I was pushing through my few and far between contractions. All these things for me pointed to a healthier bub through medical intervention.
So all power to you who want to do it au naturale (ie no medical input or monitoring, or hospital checkups, or scans etc) but if ANYTHING is happening to my body that involved my safety, I would prefer to have medically trained people ie midwives, drs and hospital staff, on hand.
I think the medical advances in the last 50 or so years have improved things in leaps and bounds. I agree that some of them add to complications in labour in particular, but even after I was very well informed for my labour, I still chose to go with medical intervention.
Its just about balancing what you believe with how you feel at the time. The only thing I would read up more on this time around was how to prevent OP babies (ARGH!!!! NEVER AGAIN!!!) and what the risks are associated with assisted birth - from a very impartial survey I might add. I know that stats can be very misleading until we know exactly what the conditions and sampling type was.
Anyway - not an argument, just a gentle prod in the favour of the medical profession, and all the good things we get out of it :D Like those scans. As my mum said when she watched Jenna wrigging on our TV set - we never had things like that when I was pregnant with you lot. And I look at my very good friend who has just had a baby at 32 weeks in Houston. Her placenta ruptured, and because of the medical profession she didn't lose her baby, and she is now able to express and feed through a nasal tube, and I look at two ofmy good friends who have their babies after losses, and then cervical stitches and c/s. I think there is an awful lot of good that some OB/GYNs do that maybe unheralded.
Lets put ourselves in these mums shoes and give the medical profession a jolly good pat on the back :D
Fi, hope I didn't bore you with all of my homebirth stuff ;) Tehya was a VBAC. Just thought I'd add that. You can't deliver at home prior to 37 weeks, don't think they really have a cut off date for post term babes though.
Even though I had a homebirth I still had all the normal tests they do in hospital, even a few extra scans ;) I was also booked into hospital just in case. I felt comfortable knowing that I only a short drive from the hospital and if in the event I needed to be transfered the time it would take me to get there a theatre could be prepped and ready for me on my arrival. All the time receiving medical attention by my 2 very capable midwifes.
I think people will always have differing views on this subject. My own DP was and is still against it ](*,) In the end we need to respect each others decisions. No way is the "right" way, it's just "our" way.
Take care
Trish
Those things you pointed out, all fall under "unless absolutely medically necessary" - a placental abruption definitely needs medical attention - and you get no forewarning of that so no-one is to know no matter what care you have. It can happen at any time, before labour or during. I'm not bagging Obs at all. But there is much to be said for overdiagnosis and convenience which is very prevalent but not obvious to the eye of most consumers because they just don't know otherwise.
Unfortunately there are not enough studies on transfers to hospital from homebirth, but if it was through the roof we'd know about it. You do have a midwife right by your side more than a hospital midwife, continuity of care which has much better outcomes and if that takes your fancy it's an option. Midwives use dopplers which are far more accurate. My mum had an internal monitor, it fell off, she was told the baby was dead and a midwife felt it wasn't right - she used a doppler and picked up the heartbeat. So technology can fail you and it often does. Not to argue any of your points, I am enjoying this discussion so thank-you for sharing your views - it's important to see a wide range of views.
You are too right about the stats. A midwife did some investigating after questioning a caesar for CPD (small pelvis) and when she read the notes, she was over being pregnant and wanted a caesar - so thats not good in the stats for real cases of CPD - it doesnt help when this is already overdiagnosed and has been for many years - this was about when even our mums gave birth and Obs were embarassed when mums gave birth at home fine, to bigger babies. There are plenty of examples on BB of overdiagnosed CPD where they have birthed fine after.
Trish - you didn't bore us. It was a beautiful thing to behold, and you know that :D . It just made me realise that it wasn't my cup of tea, and if I had a friend goign through it, I would make sure her pool arrived a little earlier . :cryinglaugh:
Kelly - wouldn't it be nice if all the stats came off a level playing field ;)
WRT reasons for c-sections, I have a good friend who does ultrasounds. On many occasions she has been begged by mothers to "find something wrong" so they can have a c-section. She of course refuses to do so.
Maybe they need to distinguish between c-sections for personal reasons and those for medical reasons so we can see the true picture.
I do think that medical intervention has it's place in the birth of a baby, but only when it is medically required.
WRT over-diagnosis of CPD I just wanted to add that since I first posted in this, my SIL had her baby via c/s. She was apparently 'overdue' by 10 days (but keeping in mind her dates had varied alot during the pg) and was put in for a gel induction. When that failed twice, she was told she would have to have a c/s because she was already 10 days post dates. She was never asked if she would like a u/s to check placental function and being a first mum she wouldn't have known to ask. So instead of waiting it out, she agreed to the c/s. When he was born he was covered in vernix, much like an early baby would be and he looked nowhere near 'overcooked'.
I asked SIL afterwards if she would try for a VBAC next time and she said her ob told her that when they did the c/s she found that her pelvis was 'long and narrow' (how can a pelvis be long and narrow?) and making her unable to ever delivery naturally. Mind you she hadn't even dialated at all, so how can they make that diagnosis when the pelvis hadn't even tried to birth her baby? In a way I feel she has been ripped off because she was never given the chance to try and she is sort of naive enough to go with the Dr's opinion.
I apologise if I've rambled, but this has really annoyed me and since i have been here at BB I have learnt so much about the birthing process and I think Doctors should be obligated to offer a second opinion or an u/s before just going and doing stuff like that and making sure the mother is informed of her choices, because not every mum will know to ask for these things.
LOL Fi, I had all but forgotten about my pool arriving so bloody late and all the dramas I had getting it. :cryinglaugh: I have kept my pool. Mark wanted me to get rid of it. I just can't, it holds so much signifigance to me. I told him I'm keeping it for Tehya to have her babies in. His answer "she won't want to use a second hand pool" LOL
Take care
Trish
Very interesting question and responses. Unfortunately I don't think the bb members are indicative of society - we are way smarter and more educated :D
There was a recent article in the US about two young first time mothers in the same town, who attended each other's baby showers.:
The first one had a c/s and died during the surgery. Her friend was freaking out, saying, OMG I hope that is not going to happen to me. A week later, she also ended up having a c/s, and died.
Both mothers and babies were totally healthy - no pre-existing problems.
Imagine if that happened to two homebirth mothers in the same town.