why won't she sleep?

I'm going to post this in a few places but I'm hoping that someone might be able to give me some ideas and or help because I am at my wits end with Ivy.

Ivy has never been very good with sleeping. She does have issues.She was born at 30 weeks, with residual apnoeas. (Normal for prems).She has had reflux since she was 3 months old and has been on Losec for just about as long, although we are trying to wean her off it now, as a side effect is stomach cramps. She is an allergic baby, with lots of sensitivities to food. She is allergic to cows milk. She has eczema and asthma (although the asthma is only exacerbated when she is unwell). She has recurrent middle ear infection and we are going to see an ENT at the end of March for probable grommets. So all these things could be a factor as to why she never sleeps.
I know she is overtired. I know I am too. I have been to the GP and to the paed, who have given me bad jokes, a prescription for myself for a block of chocolate and a good cry and easy cliches' all of which are unhelpful.

Also, Lily, my now 8 year old daughter was a poor sleeper until the age of three, so I had no expectations of babies sleeping through at all, but her wake ups were easy. She settled well, despite waking up and often, it was just reassurance that Mummy and Daddy were there. Ivy's sleep or lack there of, is a totally different ball game.

Here is Ivy's usual day/night pattern over a 24hour period.

4am - 5am - wake up, have a bottle, start the day.

6am, we're usually up out of bed because I can't listen to her complain in her cot anymore or I am over her climbing all over me in bed, kicking, scratching, eye gouging, rolling...you get the picture.

By 8am she is getting tired but will not settle to sleep because the big kids are still home.

Between 9 - 9:30 I put her down for a morning sleep. By this stage she is crying and clingy so I know she needs to sleep. Won't settle in my arms, in the cot and lately doesn't want to be touched while she is settling. Just wants me in the room.
Sleeps for 20 minutes and will not resettle. Occasionally she will sleep for longer, up to an hour, if I am very lucky.

Up, drink, morning tea. Play She is VERY active and doesn't stop moving the whole time she is awake but is constantly rubbing her eyes. By lunch time she is slowing down, getting grizzly again, putting her head down on the floor. I know she is tired.

11:30 - 12 ish is usually lunch.

At 1 - 1:30 ish I attempt her second sleep.

I just need to pause here to let you all know that Noah has himself on a very strict routine of sleep. He goes down at 9am and sleeps until 10:30 - 11am and then again at 1:30 and usually sleeps until 2:30 - 3pm,he goes to bed at around 7:30 - 8pm at night and (most of the time)sleeps through, so I am roughly trying to get Ivy to sleep at the same times. Noah is currently asleep and Ivy is barking, like a dog, in her cot. *SIGH*

Anyway, sometimes Ivy sleeps and sometimes she fights it and at 3pm when the kids start to come home I give up. When she sleeps, again, it is usually only 20 minutes.

She then proceeds to grizzle and grump her way through the afternoon/evening. Sometimes she will sleep in the car when I am doing after school activities but these are rare occasions and if she does it is only while the car is in motion. As soon as we stop (even for traffic lights)she'll wake.

As you can imagine, the dinner bath and bed routine is a total disaster. Thank goodness my other kids are older and can help me and that Noah is such an easy going baby. Still by the time it's all over, I am frazzled. Most days I put dinner on in the morning, so I don't have to cook and other little things too, that you learn along the way so that you cope with everything that goes along with having seven children. Don't get me wrong, this is NOT a complaint. I love my kids and would have more if I could. I'm just writing it all down, so you get a whole picture.

About 7:30 is when I try to settle Ivy. By that time David is home, the big kids are settled, have been bathed, fed etc and are having their down time. Sh is usually asleep by 8pm.

She then wakes again at 10:30 - 11pm and from there it is a constant battle to get her to resettle.
I have had three nights when she slept through. All single occasions. All when she was very unwell, oh and a week of almost constant sleeping last July, when she was in hospital, with bronchiolitis, on oxygen.
She doesn't just wake and cry or call out for attention. She wakes and screams like she has had a fright or something and continues the full on wails until she exhausts herself.
Some nights are better than others.
For the last three nights though, she has woken at 11pm, 2am and 10:30 pm for a repeat performance of what I have described above.

Here is what we have tried so far. Some of the things are not good choices and have been last resort measures but they haven't worked either. Just so you know, I don't feel good about them but after 16 months of minimal sleep (and more before the twins' birth due to pregnancy anxiety) I am so tired I am willing to try anything.

Over the last 16 months we have tried...

Rocking, cuddling, singing, walking the floorboards, patting, rewrapping, leaving unwrapped, sleeping bags,Hug a bub, co sleeping, cot in our room, cot in her own room, different cot, dummy, no dummy,more fluids, checking that she's not too hot, not too cold, less food at dinner, more food at dinnerand all the self settling techniques like putting baby to bed awake and being guided by what the baby needs (eg; she'll sleep if she is tired), all the Tresillian, Karitane based techniques and here are the things that I wouldn't normally do but have over the last few months, weeks and days... controlled crying, and using a phernergan regime (advocated by the paed).

So that's it, girls. Sorry it's so long, hope that someone can come up with something new for me to try.

The only other thing that I have done is put her on the waiting list for the sleep unit at our tertiary hospital because I read an article that suggested that prems who had apnoeas in the neonatal period often still have them but rouse themselves. In doing so they are often frightened and disoriented and then get to a stage where they fear sleep. Don't know if that is Ivy but at this stage I want to cover all bases.

Thanks for reading.

PHEW Tiff.... I'm exhausted reading about poor Ivy.... I really dont have any other suggerstions, I think you've tried them all, what about a late night warm calm bath???

Indah woke up on Wedbnesday night & was awakje from 12 til 2:30am & I wanted to put her out with the hard rubbish!! I cant imagine how it would feel if it was almost nightly... You must be exhausted!!! As must Ivy be, I'm certain she doesnt wnat to be t5his sleep deprived either!

All I can do is wish you tonnes of luck at the hospital & hopefully they can get her into a better sleeping pattern....

I am really thinking of you guys!!!!! MWAH!

Tiff.... you must be truly amazing to get through all that.

Sorry i don't have a miracle for you but a friend of mine who was at the end of her tether took her little one to an ostiopath and she worked wonders.

Taz

How are you coping, mate? You have the night shift too atm don't you so how are you getting any sleep at all? I wish I lived closer.

I think you've covered everything I could have thought of and more so I have no suggestions, just love and support if you need it.

The apnoea theory seems likely reading that. Poor little thing.

Could it be the pain from the ear infection? Have you raised the top of the cot a bit? But you said you've tried the HAB so she would have been upright then.

I don't know sweetherat but I hope you sort it out soon.

Tiff I don't have any solution for you I'm sorry. I wish I did. It sounds like you're certainly eliminating all possible causes and trying all different techniques to find a solution. It will be interesting to see what the sleep apnoea specialists come up with. I really hope you find a workable solution soon, for both your sakes. Big hugs.

Thanks girls.

It's nice to just have the reassurance, truly.
Nat. Thank you for thinking of me. The honest truth is, I am not coping well atm. Thus the cry for help post. I wish you lived closer too. Yes, her bed is raised, has been since she was a littley. It is a possibility that it is due to the ear infection. When she is acutely unwell with it she will only ever nap sitting up.

Taz Thank you. I haven't tried an ostio but we have been going to the chiro since she was five months old with varying results. I'll look into it.

Tracey A nice warm bath for her...or for me??? LOL. Yep, tried that too, with lavender essential oils to calm and relax. Sadly, it made me sleepy but not Ives.

Christine - thanks. There is a 3 month waiting list for the sleep unit, so hopefully something will come of it all before that.

*hug* Tiff I don't have many answers. Matilda still wakes at night & the last week has been up for over an hour in the middle of the night just grumping and complaining about everything... Its awful & tiring and someday my child will sleep through... Matilda isn't unwell anymore, its all behavioural. But for the first year with reflux & ear infections & tonsilitis it was awful. There were days when all I did for a full 18 hours was try to settle her down. She is extremely active as well & used to have permanent scratches behind her ears where she would flail as a tired sign.

So... nothing for you but *hugs* and the same wish as Nat, that I lived closer. I did find Brauer's Calm homeopathic drops helped for a month.... just thinking out loud now.

Thanks Christy. It's nice to know I am not alone in this. I will get some of the brauers tonight when I take the girls to dancing. Ivy is asleep for the first time today, now. She has been asleep for ten minutes!

Oh Tiggy.....I feel for you!! I posted a thread here when I first signed up about DD not going to sleep.....Christy was a godsend!!! But that was nothing compared to your issues!! I wish I could help but you sound like you have ehausted all the avenues I would suggest, but the sleep clinic and the anonea's sound like possible solutions. All I can say is i wish you the very best......you are a brave lady....with 7 children too!! You deserve a medal!! Keep us all posted, I'll be thinking of you!

P.S I have tried the brauers too.....didn't help too much for us but it's worth a shot!

Tiggy you poor thing, I was thinking Brauers too. you can give four doses in 2 hours so prob best to give around 5.30, 6, 6.30 and 7pm. I do find it good. Worth a try I suppose.
I honestly and truly think you are a most amazing mother and person in general. I absolutely admire you. I lose it when coco wakes at night so I can only imagine how your sleep deprivation must be. I think the sleep aponea sounds like it could be linked, and I just hope you can get into the hospital asap.
thinking of you and here for you to vent to. Sorry Im not much more use than that. xoxoxo

OMG Christy (sorry for hijacking Tiff)
But Indah's ears are the same, behind her ears are all scartched & red from where she scratches & pulls on them, which are her tired signs with rubbing her hair..

She gets SUPER sweaty too & so her skin behind her ears is often sweaty so must itch as well, plus Maddy brought a few LICE home which Indah was rampant with at 1 stage, then she got an ear infection so her nape of her neck & behind her ears are raw!!!


OOOh Bummer Tiff about the bath, only thing I can suggest is a bottle of wine & a box of choc's sit up with her share, cry, laugh & love together!! HEE HEE Jusdt kidding!

Thanks, Meg. I'm sure you'll hear all about it! Sometimes, venting is all I can do to stay sane.

Thanks Becstar. Is your daughter a better sleeper now? PLEASE give me some hope, LOL.

Trace, mmm, some wine, might help her...I mean me sleep better!! LOL.:p

Oh Tiff, you poor love. It can't be easy either when the Dr's etc can't come up with a solution and you have tried everything you can think of. The sleep unit sounds like a good plan, but it is a shame you have to wait so long - I hope the problem gets better before then.

Tiff, you know I would come and give you a hand in a heartbeat if I could, if only to hold the fort while you caught up on sleep.

Aww, thanks Sherie. It's really nice to know that you all care. I have decided I am going to bed early tonight, once I get the no- sleep wonder girl to bed, I am going there too. I am on night duty at work again on Sunday so I need to get some sleep before then.

Thanks Fletch. They have me on the cancellation list too, so if anything comes up sooner, I'm there.

Hi Tiff -
I can't imagine how you do it!!!! My DS is a non-sleeper but I only have him to worry about. I applaude you for managing everything that you do! I don't have any advice that hasn't been offered - though I did see something in a different post about putting epsom salt in the bath to help calm them, which I am considering trying with DS, but I can't remember where I saw it - sorry!!
I was wondering how long Ivy slept when you finally got her to sleep this arvo. My DS is down to one nap a day and it is usually about an hour and a quarter which seems like an eternity after reading that Ivy only sleeps 20 minutes!
Good luck getting some sleep tonight and please keep us all posted - I too - am curious to hear what you find out from the sleep study. Hang in there and know that we are all here to help - even if it is only to listen.

Another non sleeper! Thanks Heidi for your reply.
As I said to Christy, it's nice to know (although sad for you) that I am not alone. I think I was VERY spoilt with Ivy's big sisters and with Noah. I just don't know what to do with the Ivy girl. She is a mystery to me.

Ivy slept another ten minutes and then she was awake, screaming.So, 20 minutes in total, after an hour and a bit of trying to get her to settle.
It coincided with the big kids coming home from school, so who knows how long she might have slept?
It's not so much the day sleeps, I guess, although when I get a break, it is a Godsend. It's more the night sleeping that is a worry and the fact that she is so overtired and grumpy for a large part of each day.

I was talking to DH just before and we are going to put her angel monitor back on he matress. It alarms if there are any apnoeas but we took it off when she turned one as it seemed to go off alot. A little sleep study of our own! DH thought we might even set up the video cam to film her during the night, to see if there is anything we are missing! Perhaps going a bit too far, me thinks! LOL

Tiggy, I think the monitor is a great idea, but also the video camera may be the way to go, to see what she is doing over night.
Good Luck, I hope you get some more sleep soon.

Thanks Jill and Kelly.

Another bad night. *SIGH*

awww Tiff *hugs* I thought of you last night as Matilda climbed into our bed at 12.30am and then got up when Jovie got up at 3.30 and then was up again at 5am and then for the day at 6.15........

Christy,
I have just given the Brauers to Ivy 1/2 hourly for the last 2 hours. I'm hoping for a miracle tonight. I feel for you.
A 'friend' told me it was my fault that she was waking so often, that I was giving off nervous vibes...way to kick a girl when she's down.

Tiff, you should have kicked her, in fact, tell me where she lives and I'll kick her for you LOL - what a ridiculous thing to say to someone.

I asked her how she could say that when Ivy wouldn't sleep for David or for my MIL either and how is it that Noah will sleep? I don't seem to pass on my nervous energy onto him?!?!?! GRRRR. Must admit though, felt very fragile today.

Tiff, I'm sorry for everything you're going through ... both you and Ivy. I just wanted to add some commiserations as William suffers from nightmares and is also a late teether. The combination has resulted in many nightwakings of the screaming inconsolably variety. Your daily routine with Ivy sounds a lot like ours too. I can only imagine having health issues thrown into the mix with that.

I hope the place comes up soon in the sleep study. It sounds like it might be very helpful for both of you. Sorry I can't be of more help.

Love,

Mel

Thanks Mel.
Hope that young William settles for you soon.

Hi Tiff -
Well DS is having a rough night tonight so thoughts are with you as we continually re-settle him tonight. He went down for the night at 8:15pm and has already woken four times - so I'm deeming this a bad night already! SIGH!! Perhaps you are having better luck with Ivy??? My thoughts are with you...

Hi Heidi,
Sadly no, we didn't have a better night than you. I hope that DS settled for you and that you got a block of sleep. Ivy slept from 8pm until 11pm and then she was up and is still up, now having brekkie. I am on night duty tonight and feeling all very down about it. Five nights of little sleep. Hopefully she'll crash tonight so DH can get some much needed sleep.
I hope your night wasn't too horrid. Thinking of you...and Christy...and Melbo...and all the other Mums with no- sleep wonderbabies.

Tiff, I just feel so bad for you. I reallu hope all of you guys get some much needed sleep soon. Is it possible to take turn with your DH's? Share the load? Not at the same time, but so that one can sleep while the other sits with the baby.

oh Tiff I'm so sorry *hugs* I wish I had the answer. The one positive you have is knowing that it isn't you. Noah sleeps & if it was you (silly friend...) then he wouldn't be either. Its not your fault. It took me 2 years to come to that conclusion with Matilda, I realised it wasn't me. She isn't a sleeper. She doesn't fit the textbooks... and thats the way it is. I am much more at peace with it than DH is thats for sure.

Awww tiff

I dont know hun.

Maybe she just ...hmmmm I cant answer. You have done everything and I think your doing all of it right.

Im sorry Im no help.

Awww Ivy let mummy have a rest hunny...lol...

Good luck tiff...xxxx

Hi Tiff -
I hope you survived your night shift! I eventually pull DS into bed and co-sleep when I get too tired in the night. Strangely enough he then sleeps reasonably well so one way or another I get enough sleep to function the next day.
Did I read your last post correctly??? Did Ivy wake at 1am and then NEVER go back to sleep - not even for a little while??? YIKES if I understood that right.
I went to playgroup for the first time today and DS loved it and was completely shattered by the time we got home. He had a quick shower with daddy and then straight to bed and I thought maybe just MAYBE he would take a massive nap but it was not to be. He slep 1hr 45mins but woke at the 1hr mark and needed re-settling which really means it was his usual 90 minute nap.
On the positive side his first block of sleep last night was 3 hours so perhaps perhaps perhaps we are making baby steps in the right direction. I am probably going to speak to the girl that works at the natural food store about the brauers range - I want to check the ingredients carefully of the sleep aid one and then I'll think about trying it. There are a lot of enviromental allergies on my side of the family so I have to be extra careful.
DS is whinging so need to attend to him but before I go - I keep forgetting to ask hold old Ivy and Noah are?? Also wanted to let you know that I checked out your photo site and you have a beautiful family - where do you find the time to sceapbook with all you do??? You truly are an amazing woman!!!

Hi Heidi,
Yep, you read right and she did a repeat perfoemance last night for DH while I was at work. He was shattered this morning.
Mondays are a busy day for us. We have babygroup and it falls between the two nap times so Ivy and Noah are both overtired this afternoon. I am so tired this arvo.
Tonight, I am moving Ivy's cot next to my bed in the hope that she will sleep if she can see me. We are on to six nights and counting.
Her right ear drum perforated last night, so I am wondering if I have been totally unobservant and missed the signs of middle ear infection and this is why she hasn't slept well. She hasn't had a fever though, so I am stumped.
Thanks for thinking of us, Ivy and Noah are almost 16 months old now.

Tiff, my girlfriends son was as happy as could be during the day, no temp, no fever no pulling of ears & was an absolute horror at night would only sleep curled up in a ball on the lounge couch all night! So they let him go, after 5 or 6 nights they were so tired as he'd wake hourly & need re settling, then one day Child care called to say BOTH his earsdrums had perforated! She felt sick that she hadnt noticed but that night he slept better & has returned to sleeping from 7pm til 10pm a quick bottle & then back to sleep til 7:30am!

I hope Ivy now settles for you....

Hi Tiff!
Still thinking about you quite often so thought I would post quickly tonight! Was wondering how it went putting the cot right up next to your bed so she could see you in the night? Or is she more settled now that her ear is on the mend? That is yucky that it perforated but it is so hard to know what is wrong when they can't just use words and tell us!
If you check out my post in the punching bag room you will find that I had a rough day today because I let the stupid woman at the baby clinic get to me. Why can't believe understand/believe/accept that there are babies out there who just don't sleep??? There isn't anything wrong (with some of them) and the mum's aren't doing anything wrong!! It just annoys me that I let the lady get to me - especially since a friend of mine warned me about this particular woman! Oh well... :wall:
Here's hoping that things are improving in your household!!

HI Heidi,
I'll go have a look at PB in a minute but I'm so sorry to hear that the clinic nurse treated you badly. Some of them just have no idea, forget what it was like to have young babies or have never had kids themselves. As if you weren't feeling bad as it is.
As for us, the ear perforation did nothing to help her nor did the side car idea. Sadly, last night I gave her heavy sedation and that helped her to sleep for three hours -
11pm - 3am.
I'm so sorry that you are having a rough time. I feel for you, I really do. Ok. I'm off to have a look at your post in Punching Bag.

Just to let you know as well, when I was 7 months pregnant we trialled sedation at night for 4 nights. *hugs* Its awful but you need rest sometimes to get through the tough times.

Christy, you are right. After 7 or 8 nights of being up for the majority of the night, you start to lose it and so we made the decision to sedate. It was horrible doing it but to have three hours in a block of sleep was wonderful. I have night duty again tomorrow night, so I think we are doing the same tonight. *SIGH*

Tiff -
Hope you are managing your night shift alright tonight! Did you get some sleep last night at least? James came to bed with me at 12:30am last night and then slept until about 4:15am so that felt good - but he had a feeding frenzy from 4am until 6am (approx) so I'm not sure what was going on there. He is just so darn unpredictable. Tonight has not been good at all so far. He was down by 8:15pm and it is 11:45pm and he has already woken four times! I'm starting to wonder if I should take him to the doctor. But then I have an appointment with my GP on Monday morning so perhaps I'll just have her check him over when I'm there. Then James is having his 1 yr needles on Tuesday so sleep will possibly get worse before it gets better. Who knows...
Anyway, was thinking about you so thought I would post...

Hi Heidi,
Oh I'm so sorry that young James had a shocker. It is very disheartening when they are so unsettled, isn't it?
Not last night but the night before, Ivy slept from 8 - 11 then after fighting with her for a couple of hours we sedated her again. last night I was on night duty and DH was on Ivy duty. He sent an SMS at 2am, asking if he could sedate her again, he'd been up with her all the time I was at work. After she was given the medicine she slept from 4 - 6am. She is sitting here, very bleery eyed... just like her mother LOL.
Thank goodness Noah is an easy going child.

Hope you get some sleep tonight and hope that the GP has a miracle cure for your sleeplessboy, if he does, can you tell me the remedy?

James had a shocking night all up! He woke again (5th wake) at midnight and was then wide awake until 2am - we finally gave him another dose of Panadol and also some Dimetapp (as he has had a very runny nose for a week or so though it is steadily improving). He fought the sleep something fierce, but I finally got him asleep at 2am and I jumped into bed as soon as he was down. He woke at 4am and I pulled him into bed with me, he had a quick feed and then I think slept pretty much right through until 8:15am. He did cry out a couple of times in his sleep but as soon as DH or I put our arm around him he went back to sleep.
I am going to put James and I on Dr Sears Elimination Diet to rule out any food allergies/sensitivities. It means the two of us living on turkey, rice, sweet potato, white potato, zuchinni, pumpkin and pears for the duration of the diet - then slowly ever so slowly re-introducing other foods - but if it means better sleep then in the long run it is worth it. If it turns out we get no change then at least we can rule that out. I will start us on the diet on Monday morning so will keep you posted. In the meantime, I'm reading Pinky McKay's "Sleeping Like a Baby" and hoping to find the answer there.
If you don't mind me asking, what do you use to sedate Ivy with?