How do you help them to "switch off"?

Yet another sleep issues thread - I know :wall:

DD1 is taking up to 2 hours to fall asleep at night. She gets quite dozey on her bottle (which she still won't hold herself) but as soon as she has finished drinking, she's up and ready to party again. So its like 7.45, and we put her to bed.

She only just fell asleep before at around 9.25pm. And all that time, she will talk to herself in there, chat, giggle, play with her toys - everything - except bloody sleep! And I know she is tired because she only has an hour sleep during the day - otherwise it can take 3 hours to get her to sleep.

She just lays there and twitches all the time, her legs mainly - its like she can't keep them still. And because she does that - she can't "switch off". You can see that all she wants to do is go to sleep - but she just can't. So at the moment, when she sits up in bed and bounces wanting to play, I walk out of the room (usually I sit beside her stroking her back trying to get her to go to sleep).

She'll let out a wail, maybe cry for 30 seconds - 1 minute - and then she'll be all happy and start playing and chatting again. If I leave it 5 minutes and go back in there, she'll be sitting in the middle of her bed, happily playing with her bear, or doona, or pillow - ANYTHING BUT FREAKING SLEEPING.

Its totally doing our head in. How can we get her to switch off? We've tried lavender in the bath, massage before bed, braeurs calm stuff - EVERYTHING - and still she won't SLEEP.

So between her doing this - or doing this AND waking up in the middle of the night and doing the same thing then for a few hours - and DS waking up in the middle of the night and crawling into our bed - the newborn is the only one without bloody sleep issues!!!

I'm so tempted to take her to the doctor and get a script for something to help relax her, or take her to sleep school. She's nearly 17 months and just will not sleep - it can't be normal.

HELP!!!

Hun you poor thing you must be exhausted! I don't know if it would work, but can you take everything out of her room (i.e. toys, other things she is likely to play with when she should be trying to go to sleep) so that she has no distractions and nothing to focus on except going to sleep?
As I said I have no idea if it would work, or if it's even possible for you...but hope you can get it sorted soon and get some decent sleep!

What happens if you don't keep going in to check on her?

I don't know, you might have already tried, but...quiet dark room? Meditation music CD?

:hug: sending lots of sleepy vibes....

Mate, how frustrating for you.

We had a similar situation with DS when he was about 20 months but his issue is that he would want to get up for a 3 hour play session during the night.

After trying everything (singing, stroking hair, cuddles etc) we took the hardline approach.

If he woke up, we would say

" it's sleep time, lie down, head on pillow and go to sleep". and walk away.

If he persisted we would repeat and sometimes we would say

" you are making Mummy very cross, it sleep time, lie down, head on pillow and go to sleep"

Amazingly it worked.

I don't know if DD1 is a bit young to understand but it's worth a try.

HTH
Spring xx

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What happens if you don't keep going in to check on her?

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She stays awake just chilling on her bed for ages. Then she'll cry and fall asleep.

And then I feel like the worst mother in the world because she cried herself to sleep.

Spring - yeah she does understand it, she knows what "lie down and go to sleep" means. She'll lie down, and then sit back up and give you the cheesiest grin - argghh drives me mental how bloody happy this kid is!!!!!

Jasp - yeah we have music playing in the room, and its as dark as it can be with daylight savings!!

ss - nah, we need them in her room cos there are too many toys in the lounge room already.. LOL

Does your DD have any food intolerences? I have heard of a theory about kids being intolerant to silicitates (tomato, potato, or night shade foods) actually have winding down and sleep dificulties. Basically these types of foods can wake kids up making it hard for them to settle. Just a thought

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Does your DD have any food intolerences? I have heard of a theory about kids being intolerant to silicitates (tomato, potato, or night shade foods) actually have winding down and sleep dificulties. Basically these types of foods can wake kids up making it hard for them to settle. Just a thought

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I have no idea - how do you find out if they are intolerant to something? Tests by the doc or something? She eats everything no worries, she is the best eater in the house - actually she's starting to actually chub up now cos she won't stop eating!!!

I am guessing a good naturopath would help you. maybe someone here on BB has had a similar experience

Hun, I went through 18 months of this with dd. She got so mental in the end I nearly went mental too :hug:

I would try putting her to bed alot earlier. Maybe 6.30 - 7pm at the very latest. If she is not sleeping much during the day she will have to catch up. I think she might be too wound up before you even get her in there. The saying 'the more they sleep, the MORE they sleep' is also true in reverse. The less dd slept the harder it was to get her to sleep at all.

It still goes backwards some days, but if I can feel it coming on (she screeches and acts like a general nutbag - even at 3) I feed her by 5, bed about 6.30. If she starts up 'shenanigans' at least she will be asleep by 8 at the latest.
Doing this also started her sleeping through all night too :dance:

Really Lulu?? I would LOVE her to sleep through the night - or even be asleep before 9pm!!!

Can any of your remedies help her do you think? I don't think the "calm" stuff is helping.

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Does your DD have any food intolerences? I have heard of a theory about kids being intolerant to silicitates (tomato, potato, or night shade foods) actually have winding down and sleep dificulties. Basically these types of foods can wake kids up making it hard for them to settle. Just a thought

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Mum tried this with her XP's son, he had ADHD. Try the book 'Fed Up' by Sue Dengate - I think it gives tips & maybe an elimination diet? I remember he couldn't have green apples, among other things.

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Does your DD have any food intolerences? I have heard of a theory about kids being intolerant to silicitates (tomato, potato, or night shade foods) actually have winding down and sleep dificulties. Basically these types of foods can wake kids up making it hard for them to settle. Just a thought

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Might be a hassle but maybe doing like an elimination diet could help identify what/if any foods can do this??? I know when my mum started this with me we discovered an intolerance to salicilates (tomato, choc, apples etc) and this was causing MASSIVE headaches as well as muscle twitches and sleeplessness.

They probably could - I'd be more inclined to treat her with stuff to help her adjust to the recent changes so she could calm herself down.

BUT firstly I'd recommend the earlier bedtimes, cutting out things like strawberries and grapes (possible causes for being unable to wind down, check out the Sue Dengate Website).

Give it 2 weeks to change and commit to staying in there for a little bit longer stroking her back or whatever. If she bounces up to play and get all goofy, shush her and tell her to lie down again - all very gently and kindly. Don't respond to cuteness or her trying to engage you all over again. Say the same words - and only those words - to her. Shuuush now, time to sleep.

She will get it and it might be a bit frustrating but WOW - when you get to the point when she will go to sleep within minutes you feel like a FREAKIN CHAMPION and it somehow changes your life ;)

Do the 2 week thing - and if you feel like it, go check the old parenting debriefing section and you can see how bad it got for dd and I. I thought I would DIE of frustration and lack of sleep....

IM gonna say it only cause I use to stay up until 2 - 3 am with W and then he would be up bouncing of the wall's at 6am :o
I was a walking zombie...I tried EVERYTHING until he was 3 1/2. My pead and doctor both told me to get some Valergane for him. I used 5ml at 5.30pm and put him to bed at 7 and BANG he slept through until 6 the next morning :dance: As the doc and Pead said its training your child to get into a sleep mood...so I did it for 5 days and OMG the sleep I got..the first night I was still awake because my body had gotten use to it lol.
Valergane is different to Phernergan. Phernergan is for allergies were Valergane is more a seditive.

No I dont agree in giving children drugs...but my sanity was on the line and I had to do what I had to for my sanity. I also went on doctor's advice and IM thankful I did.

Good luck hon...sleep deprevision is horrible for kids :( once their in that runt its hard to get them out of it :hug:

i have found not having the tv on in the evening(wind down time starts at 5 ish) helps alot. once its off they have to process what they have seen, this usualy means they are a bit more "active"if it has been left on til later..

Arimeh - Have you heard of Rescue Remedy? They have a kids formula and it helps to settle down anxiety and sleeplessness. There are other Bache Flower remedies too, all of these are available at your Health Shop. However because you DD is under 2yo they may not recommend anything.

Also I remember DD2 wen't through some thing like this around 15 to 18 months and I couldn't get her down before 9pm. I just kept the 7.30 to bed routine. Bed, book, song and kisses. After that I gave her no attention but to tell her to lie down and go to sleep (softly, not like a dog as my DH seems to do). If I knew she didn't need me anymore I'd just leave her to drop.

Yeah I've heard of rescue remedy, I used to use it for my panic attacks.

She's getting worse now - its affecting her daytime sleeps as well. However, she seems to drop off quicker if we let her cry a little (which I absolutely HATE doing) but she seems to cry for about 2-5 minutes (just a whingy sort of cry, not screaming) and then goes quiet and she's usually fallen asleep.

Maybe us being in there with her is too much a distraction and WE are the problem, not a solution? Who knows. She had a small cry before when she went down for her nap, and then all went quiet, and she had fallen asleep. Much better than the 30 minutes it has been taking to get her down during the day.

At night it doesn't work AS well though, but if she stuffs around too much wanting to party, I usually walk out of the room and she cries for 2 minutes, and then I go back in. Maybe I need to let her cry/whinge for 5 minutes? I hate the thought of letting her cry it out without me, but I also hate the thought of being the "problem" and why she can't switch off?

Arghh so conflicted.

sometimes the crying is how they wind down. If it's not a screaming distressed cry, and it's only for a couple of minutes I'd say it would be ok yeah?

RR is good for emergencies so not really the remedy for this, but change the routine around a bit and see how that goes first. Are you putting her down easlier at night?

ETA, it won't change for the better overnight though, hang in there xoxoxo

Lu - we've been putting her down at 7 instead of 7.45 (cos really that is the earliest we can get her down, DS farks around so much and holds all the routine up at every opportunity) and it still takes a good 90 minutes to 2 hours to get her down - but at least *most* of the time she is asleep at 8.30 - which is better than 9.30!!!

Still - it doesn't give us much time for ourselves cos once she is down then we do the housework (or I surf on BB in between doing the dishes haha) and then we have to get the other miss up for a feed then we eventually get to go to bed ourselves.

ETA - which usually isn't too bad, like, you live for your kids not yourself at this age, but when I have to move in less than 3 weeks time and I've only just started packing - I need the nights to pack and clean!!

Very true chick - and it IS important to have your own time to wind down at the end of the day too - but you have already gained an hour! Keep at it because it takes about 2-3 weeks to consolidate a new sleep routine

Hey darl.

You know what we found - that us touching (patting, rubbing etc) Jazz was actually keeping her awake. It kept her all buzzed up, she has NEVER fallen asleep by being patted on the bum or having her back rubbed. Also, if we make eye-contact with her then she suddenly becomes wide awake and engaged. Same as any noise. If we talk, we're back to square one.

It sounds terrible, and when I was pregnant I distinctly remember tut-tutting parents who didn't make eye-contact or who didn't use touch or soothing voices to put their kids to sleep but Jazz will not not NOT wind down if you give her any stimulus at all. She's just that kind of person. Anything visual, anything physical, anything auditory and BAM her brain just seems to fire off and she's wide awake.

She'll also not fall asleep if we aren't in there with her. Oh... well she'll whinge/yell/cry herself to sleep if we leave her but she doesn't sleep well after that so we prefer not to, only did it a few times as a last ditch of desperation, not really worth it in our house cos she wakes up after a few hours :doh:. Dunno what it is but if we turn off the lights except the monitor night light, lay on her bed (she's on a double mattress on the floor now, not in a cot) next to her, but not touch her or pat her or talk, just lay there pretending to be asleep, and after a bit of fluffing around, crawling around the bed to find the 'right spot', she lays down next to us and eventually she falls asleep. We had to perservere though, because the first few nights she was just stoked we were in bed with her, she just wanted to poke our eyelids and tickle us, but she worked out that nup, we're boring no play, no noise, no movement, just laying there with our eyes shut.

It's hard not to get frustrated and say "Oh for goodness sake go to SLEEP" but it just wakes her up more so we'd be shooting ourselves in the foot :wall:

Dunno if this is helpful, but if nothing is working and you haven't tried this either then its worth a shot.

DD can be so over tired and take for ever to go to sleep , and actually stay asleep . i know how it feels , I have been seeing a dietician for other reasons and she suggested calcium tablets or tissue salts . the calcium makes the hormones that makes you sleepy . Worked much better than phnergan (gp gave us a script and wouldnt help us) as DD wouldnt react to the phenergan , not even a yawn , but the calcium does , i crush it and put it in her bottle .....

Maz dont worry i have been to hell and back with both my kids and sleep , DS had me nearly in the nut house , the gp gave me sleeping pills and ds phernagan and it worked wonders too ... ds woulndt go to bed before 11 some nights !!

intolerances are hard to diagnose unless there is a reaction , i had DD on the "fed up" diet and it helped with her crying for what seemed like no reason . and woke up to 10 times a night , now she'll sleep through unless shes eaten something shes intolerant too ... then the screaming starts . !!

dont worry about the crying 2-5 mins isnt bad at all , its a way of "getting things off their chests" its good for them , the release of the day is gone after a big whinge and they can settle to go to sleep . some babies bang their hear etc . sometimes if one of mine is feral i just hold them and not try to stop the tears , i just know when they need to let it out ... maybe its her way of clousre for the day ?

its not like she has a husband to take it out on yet , so its gotta come out some how ;)

Hiya,
I don't have any personal experience to add (my DD is still a young baby) but on the subject of natural remedies for sleep:
Rescue Remedy SLEEP formula (not the one you take in emergencies) is suitable for children.
Also the 'leg twitching' you mentioned often is a sign of magnesium deficiency but for young kids it's probably more effective to give a 'celloid' or 'tissue salt' of magnesium than a full on magnesium supplement. There's definately a Blackmore's Celloid with magnesium for children's sleep but I can't remember off the top of my head which one it is - if you go to a health store with a naturopath on board they'll be able to tell you which one :) It probably isn't the 'magic bullet' answer but it may reduce the restlessness that stops her from nodding off completely.
HTH....