improving egg quality

Hi

My Mhx includes endo (stage 3, laparoscopy check), female antisperm antibodies) and a bit of PCOS type 2.

I have had 6 completed ICSI cycles and 2 cancelled cycles (over stim prior to pick up AND eggs released prior discovered at pick up).

My Doctor gets me to do 5 day blastocyst then transfers.

With going to mild stimulation and I beleive diet changes (apparently I am sensitive to carbs) my egg numbers have dropped from 25 to 5, of course this means nothing does it when they still don't take. The closest think I have got to being pregnantwas a blighted ovum (exactly like that scene out of Marley and Me).

I am staring down the barrel of donor egg and it is not what I had imagined.

• I tried accupuncture then my FS said it was detimental. I think he means certain alternative therapies as the article he gave me did not say accupuncture specifically.
• I have heard of invitro maturation however my clinic doesn't do this.
• I have heard of screening eggs however my clinic doesn't do this and would it be of any use anyway, if it just meant they thought my eggs all looked dodgy?

What should I be asking my FS at my next appt?

Can someone explain please whether i should be focussing on reducing carbs, or just going Low GI?

Also how do I not know it is my lining that is the problem? Should progesterone be monitored? I have done the pessaries and the gel, and my clinic doesn't do the injection. If you have your period when it is due is that sufficient to say that it held together appropriately and it was the egg problem?

thanks

Another one with PCOS here. I'd had two full cycles that ended up being freeze all due to OHSS and ended up with crap eggs all around.

When I did my third cycle, my FS got me to follow a very strict low-carb, low-GI, high protein diet... and we also were struck with low egg numbers, but apparently got better quality and my 14 month old son is the result.

Sorry I can't go for a longer reply, but I honestly believe that it's not just a matter of cutting carbs - make sure the carbs you do eat are low GI and make sure you're getting good quality protein as well. Made a huge difference for me.

BW

Thanks BW!
My FS told me to use the Calorie King website. Actually I did make a suggestion in the clinics survey that Dietician support should come as part of the deal if this impact so significantly on the outcomes.;)

It was my FS that made me do calorie king as well. He actually got my username and password and checked everything I'd done in the 4 weeks between appointments at one stage. He used slightly different dietary guidelines to what calorie king suggested for me, though.

I had a long list of "do not eat" foods, but after the first week or so it wasn't too bad. I'm not a person who does well with a diet that specifies what things to eat at which meal on what day, so being able to choose my own foods to fall within certain limits actually worked well for me, but I can see how some people would prefer the other kind of diet.

Have a bit more time to post a reply at this time of night...

With that third cycle, I still ended up on daily blood tests with the puregon injections. After spending a week in hospital with OHSS, I was pretty happy to do anything to avoid another case of it. I distinctly recall one Sunday - I'd had blood taken that morning, my levels were fine, but they dropped my puregon dose again and had me come back again on the Monday for more blood. I was tired, over it and generally craving some junk food - so I ate a hamburger and chips for lunch. My first and only slip up during the entire cycle. My results the following day were not so good and I very nearly got my E2 levels up high enough to need yet another freeze all cycle. That was the point where I was convinced! I still got OHSS again - but it was mild, and only set in with a positive pregnancy test.

One question - do you take metformin to help with the PCOS/insulin resistance? It's the insulin problem that mucks up the hormones and makes OHSS more likely (less insulin spikes means less likelihood of getting OHSS from sky-rocketing E2 levels) so it could quite possibly help a bit if you're not already taking it.

BW

Thanks heaps for sharing!
Yes a big fat green and blacks chocolate bar the night before my final blood and ultrasound had my first cycle cancelled! There I was rewarding and comforting myself for my perfect cycle when I really just sabotaged it.:redface:

Can I hazzard a guess Dr David Knight might be your guy? If not at least it means others are doing this as well. The thing that had me confused was he told me off one day right in the beginning saying you eat to many carbs but really didn't explain why. I really don't understand the PCOS thing myself or if I have a subtype or if it runs or scale or what. Contrary to the usual type, I am very slim 168.5cm and 49kg, and not somebody who needs to lose weight - for the life of me i eat the same as my husband if not more and it won't budge. I understand it has something to do with insulin resistance and the impacting the hormones. And I do overstimulate easily and produce the immature eggs.

This is my final question as I am already trying to find a dietician to give me some ideas (I want a pick from list as well and to understand it a bit bettter).

I have been following the "eating plan" through my cycles, I don't religiously every day enter my into C/King - maybe a week at a time then a few day off and on again. I am trying not to get myself stressed if my % don't add up perfectly as it is hard to reverse it. Obviously I try to eat all the right things during cycle. The thing that confused me is you are told a % of protein, carbs, and fats you can have. Does every meal in the day need to be balanced this way? I have found myself cramming down cheese, silverside or say fruit in the night just to try and bring my % in to line. To me this seems like I am getting it wrong already even if I am going low GI .. and finally yes I know it is question number two..did you stick to the plan after transfer, how important is this?

BTW, I am not taking metformin. I'll ask about that at the next appt then.
Thanks again!

Got it in one! But I seriously doubt I'd go back to him if we decide to try for number two (don't really like some of the things about the way the new clinic does things).

I'm a bit like you - not overweight and really don't have any of the usual physical signs of PCOS, but when I was sent to do a glucose tolerance test David just about fell out of his chair at my results. He usually only does the eating plan thing with people who are overweight but my insulin levels were so high that he made me do it as well. After transfer and through the early stages of pregnancy I still stuck to the plan as much as I could. It made sense to do so - PCOS can increase the chance of miscarriage and I'd already had three, so I still did what I could to keep the PCOS and my insulin levels under control.

I would balance what I ate over the whole day. Sometimes I would try to eat eggs for breakfast to lift my protein levels, but I'm very much a cereal girl so I would often have my usual cereal for breakfast and then have virtually no carbs for the rest of the day (apart from what you find in fruits and vegies - I would avoid bread, pasta, rice, potato, etc) and stick to things like meat and salads or stir fries with lots of vegies. I even managed to have pizza once without killing the entire day, and I wouldn't stress if one day was a bit high in carbs, as I'd often have others which were low so it would tend to balance out over a week. Except for during that last stim cycle - I was absolutely rigid with it and didn't allow any "carb borrowing" from one day to another. I did it from when I started lucrin right through until I was so ill with morning sickness that the constant need for a ginger nut biscuit to nibble on meant I really had no hope of keeping carbs under the limit.

But it does work. And I know David likes to tell you that and he'll often tell stories about different patients who got nowhere until they followed the plan... and sometimes it helps to actually be able to talk to one of those patients and find out that it is actually true.

One thing I do want to comment on - I was told that the only chance I had of getting pregnant was to use a frozen blastocyst and that I just had to get used to the hyperstimulation because that's what my body just liked to do. Well, I did a cycle without hyperstimulating - and thought all was lost when out of my 20 eggs only 12 were mature and of those only 3 fertilised. We didn't have enough embryos to grow to blastocyst so we transferred at day 3 (and I think this is one thing that his clinic no longer does)... so after being told my only hope was a frozen blast, I got pregnant and stayed pregnant with a fresh day 3.

BW

What a great source of advice you are!

I do find he can be a bit confusing. You know one week he says one thing and the other his approach is different. I even asked him the other day, so what is more important gi or no. of carbs and he said something like "well... not so much gi, more no. of carbs. actually these days it is more about the protein".

From having more of a read on PCOS last night, I believe the bit I am sabotaging is implantation phase and certainly it sounds like if I didn't carry through with the diet I would probably end up having an MC.

My problems is that as soon as I have had pickup I let loose on the diet as I am absolutely craving something, then am trying to be sensible but in no way at all stict as I should following transfer.:wall:

I feel terrible about my shocking will power, however I now know what I need to do to get an outcome!:rolleyes:

BTW he hasn't mentioned anything to be about saying I should hyperstimulate or only use frozen embryos.

thanks heaps

I suspect that he was referring to my specific situation. At the point where he'd said that I needed a frozen blast, I'd done two stim cycles and got quite bad OHSS with both. I'd had a total of 11 blasts frozen, but had a lot fail to thaw. Only 4 of those 11 blasts had been able to be transferred and from those 4 blasts I had three miscarriages. He'd decided that my body just liked to hyperstimulate and suggested that I just get used to getting very sick with each egg pick up and having all my embryos frozen. He also suggested that we had some chromosomal issues leading to the thaw failures and the miscarriages (one at 9 weeks the others very early) but when we asked about PGD he said it couldn't check enough chromosome pairs to be confident that it would fix the problem and that we should just rely on freezing and thawing to weed out a lot of our crap embryos and hope we eventually got one that would implant and go on to give us a successful pregnancy.

But in another appointment - the miscarriages and thaw problems were down to crap eggs which were crap because of the OHSS and that we needed to avoid OHSS and improve DH's sperm as much as possible (low count, poor motility and complete crap morphology)...

Personally - I suspect he had no idea at all and was just spinning theories to keep me happy. He did keep working towards avoiding OHSS or at the least trying to minimise it as much as possible, and we did eventually get there.

But I'd also consulted with a few other specialists - and David insisted that I stop metformin with a positive pregnancy test (but stopping metformin coincided with my first miscarriage) and that I didn't need aspirin (but we only had successful implantation when aspirin was added)... and that the prednisone I was taking for the arthritis was completely irrelevant to the conception situation (but if I reduced my prednisone dosage below 10mg while pregnant I would bleed).

Happy to have others take what they can from my experience, just glad that I can help. I honestly didn't believe the diet would work - but just did it in order to be able to tell him "told you so!", but to my complete surprise, it ended up being him telling me. However, I think the other meds had a role to play as well (I've got a few other health problems which make me a unique and complicated situation) and I never was brave enough to tell him that I was following another doctor's instructions in relating to them!

BW

Hi

I hope you don't mind me asking but I seem to be in a somewhat similar situation, I have PCO but not the syndrome and don't have a weight problem, and I have trouble producing mature eggs. At my last 2 EPU's I have only had 1 mature egg (about 5 follicles both times) which failed to make it to day 5.

BW thankyou so much for mentioning the calorie king website, I have had a look into it but was wondering if you would be able to share some more info about how much protein you were meant to be eating each day. I'm really interested in changing my diet to see if it helps things as I often eat quite erratically and I know my sugar levels go up and down quite a lot when I skip meals.

Thankyou

Yeah I don't have the syndrome just a bit of PCO, so it is a bit weird to know what to research.

The % of where your energy comes is 20% fat, 30% protein and 50% carbs (from the brochure on the website as I have lost my bit of paper). A bit tricky to balance at times so practice makes perfect. Protein and fat tend to go up and down together so never eat a sausage just lean stuff, and always go for low fat dairy. The website doesn't reflect GI and your efforts there. So you might eat some nice low to mod gi nuts thinking you have carbs and protein sorted, then up goes your fat%.:rolleyes:

It might we worth having a look through some of the patient information brochures on his site. The MedicaIVF site is not yet up and running, so you have to go in through the be healthy website or type in David Knight and Georgiana Tang.

Well I am off to see the Dietician at Designer Diets in Kogarah for alot more clarity.

Good luck

Hi Ladies,
I now know why my FS has put me on a diet! I am 10kg overweight. I do have a fats metabolic issue,eg High cholesterol. My FS just said, the weight loss/ would help my IVF chances. That was it. Obviously doesnt know about the Calorie King program. Balancing, Carbs/Sugars/Protein.
My insulin resistance is within range, but I think its on the higher end, and I have a mother/heriditary with Diabetes 2.

I overstimulate, and FS uses med to stop me loosing eggs before E/P. At ET I only get 1blastocyst to transfer. Ive had 6 stim cycles now and 2 Early miscarriages.
Its obvious my eggs are getting knocked around by the hyperstimulation too. My FS, firstly wants me to loose the weight before we do PGD for chromosomal issues.

Glad I found your discussion ladies, and if I follow the diet we may get some embryos to freeze. Obviously the Freeze cycles dont cause hyperstimulation.

I dont have PCOS, but an endocrinologist I seen, said I fit into that category.
Ive had mild endrometriosis, which is an oestrogen dominance. And my FS said, my oestrogen rises quickly... (HYPER OVARYS).
Its obvious Endo is a fats metabolic issue. And an Insulin resistance is a PCOS.

Do any of you the Big word EXERCISE? I dont, and thats been my problem too.
If any of you have any other suggestions of improving Egg Quality. I would love to know.

Lets get our eggs ready for EASTER BUNNY!!! HA AH.

Milly's mummy - looks like your question has been answered. That's what I get for being at work now! Thank you, Sophie.

Bub - exercise does make a huge difference. Not only to weight loss, but in keeping insulin and all the rest of it under control. I have issues with severe arthritis so it is difficult, but I do try to keep as active as possible. Even during IVF cycles - at least up until the enormous ovaries slow me down.

BW

Thankyou so much for all the information!!! I really appreciate it. Sometimes I get so confused about what exactly I should and shouldn't be doing and it can be hard searching through all the info on the internet! Hopefully I can give my ovaries a helping hand by adjusting my diet along with the drugs next stim cycle!

Sophie - hope your dietician appt goes well!

xoxox

As well as diet, I wanted to throw in the idea of fresh royal jelly to improve egg quality.
It's like honey (but certainly doesn't taste like that) and you can get it in health food shops.

Good luck
Sue xxx

Just thought I would mention for those in Sydney, that I found Fardoulis Honey Merchants (the same place the make the chocolates ironically) on the Princes Hwy in Kogarah are selling royal jelly. I assume it is fresh as they are selling other by products. I will have a look around there. You can google them if you want to ring and price it.

Hi

Just thought I would ask, I started my low gi diet on the weekend (I also looked up the brochures on the medicaivf website that had diet info too).

Anyway the past few days I have been feeling dizzy with slight blurry vision. Has anyone else had this? I thought it might go away after my body re-adjusts but I wasn't sure. I hate calling up my FS or nurses to ask questions and I'm still not due back for an appointment for a few weeks.

Thanks so much!

Hi

Milly's Mummy, I don't remember experiencing any of the problems you have mentioned. I know when I went low GI I had energy consistently throught the day. Perhaps just a signifcant change for you body or otherwise are you eating enough and regularly? Somebody else might know....

I thought I might share my experience below if anyone is interested:

I did go to a Dietician, Geraldine Georgou, on Tuesday for an assessment appt. She has lots of expereince in the area and has filled me with some confidence and seem very passionate spending a thorough 1.5 hours with me and very much put her investigative hat on. She also knows of my FS and rang him during the appt. She gave me lots of articles to reference the subjects. I feel alot of relief actually she seems to want to sort this out as much as I do.

Her assistant rang all the various pathology places and obtained my old blood test results. My Glucose Tolerance Test that the FS sent me for about 18 months ago did not have any insulin results just the glucose levels. My glucose was consistently low at the three test periods instead of showing a peak. This led her to two hypothese:
1) malabsorption (glucose not adequately getting across to the blood)
2) insulin dysfuntion (??uptake of glucose too quick), but then I produce the immature eggs so not very clear

I look like a classic ceoliac:rolleyes:, however it appears the endocrinologist I once went to about being a light weight, ordered only 1 of the 3 tests and ruled me out for it. It got a bit interesting from here: there are links between endo and ceoliac (i have endo), plus also ceoliacs and myeloma (my dad has myeloma). Importantly there are links between ceoliacs and infertility and miscarrigage (i figure this is due to poor nutrient levels) so I would have to get this sorted. My FS was not interested in knowing whether I had Ceoliacs so we are going to work on this on the side.

So the action plan for me is:[*]A diet plan based upon 40% carbs, 40% protein, and 20% fats. This is in grams and not in relation to sources of calories like Calorie King will show you. Whilst low GI can be helpful, according to the dietician, having protein or even fat with a carb makes it low GI eg having a piece of fruit and a box of nuts. Proteins sources should be low fat. The diet plan is soo easy, nothing weird.
EG. breakfast
For breakfast you could have burgen bread with vegemite and low fat cheese. You could have scrambled eggs on toast.The LSA mix (linseed, almond and sunflower seeds) in the health food section can be spinkled on your Special K and low fat milk to make it a perfectly balance dish and it tastes nice.

It is important to note each meal or snack needs to be balanced rather than trying to make it all balance out at the end of the day on calorie king. Therefore I am not using Calorie King
[*]Blood tests to explore malabsorption.
[*]Looking to delay my cycle whilst I get this sorted out[/LIST]

I would suggest that anyone who has diet related fertilty problem find a dietician/nutritionist with lots of experience in infertilty/PCOS/endocrine problems rather than being left to fend for yourself with limited advice and support from an FS. You don't need a referral, however if you get the FS to write a note stating their aims then at least you can all be on the same page.

Good Luck

Hi Sophie

Thanks for the information it was very helpful.

I've been to see a dietician too now after being inspired by you who also was keen on the low gi diet - but they told me I could eat a little chocolate as apparently its low gi!!! I'm not sure if i'l risk it though. They also told me about the gi website you can enter foods into check to see which foods are low or high its The Glycemic Index

I also got the patient information off the website that said no pasta? but apparently pasta is low gi so I'm a bit confused.

Hope everything is going well!!!

I have PCO too. The only time I cycled with one follicle (instead of a plethora of cysts), I had sworn off sugar for the whole month. I was really stunned at that result, but pleased as punch! As that month, the transfer worked. :)

As for improving egg quality, I'm certain that cutting sugar will have a great impact. Combine with low GI/low carb diet (chocolate may be officially 'low GI', but is still full of sugar), and healthy exercise - well... you're setting yourself up right.

Fingers crossed ladies. Let us know how you get on. :)

Hi Milly's Mummy!

All is going well and abstained completely over Easter, one small hot cross bun outside of my plan only.

Re: the pasta..I found one site saying it was low gi and another saying it was high and it was possibly reading this made me decide that professional advice was better.

Of the main meal suggestions, my diet plan indicates only a cup of pasta if you are having a spaghetti bolognaise which would indicate to me that we still need to be careful about the total carbs you consume in relation to protein. So you just need to ensure it is a meat heavy dish you eat. Your GI won't spike if you eat in the right combination and proportions.

A basic main meal looks like this.
200-250g lean meat
1-2 cups of vegies
1 cup of starch vegie (OR 1/2 cup or pumpkin or sweet potato)

However you can't overdo the number of carbs either. I know this because the dietician has the number of carbs written against each meal and also my FS was focussed on number of carbs. So, because bergen bread or a special type of low gi muesli is out there, it wouldn't be wise to just pig out on that. I couldn't just eat 3 apples in a row and 3 handfuls of nuts because it would mean I had consumed excessive carbs and fat, neither of which are good (as a snack I can have a piece of fruit and a small handful of nuts).

I wish I could copy an paste you my diet plan just so you had an idea!!

Just so you know, a chocolate paddle pop is allowed if I need a sweet fix - guess who bought a pack of 10!

I hope this makes sense.
Sophie

Thanks Entreat for your positive feedback!! What a great result!! :D

Thanks Entreat and Sophie

Information was very helpful once again! Well done over Easter! I had a few very minor lapses in will power - oops - but am back trying to keep going on my diet again. I'll have to remember the paddle pops for next time

I think I'm getting better at balancing my gi each meal and snack but still have to increase my meat intake! Are you meant to eat a protein at each main meal? We only really have meat at dinner. Also, did your dietician tell you how frequently you needed to eat at all?

Hope you're all going well!

...eat regularly, every 3 to 4 hours - so have a snack between main meals. I guess that means you have a fairly even blood sugar and insulin level, no idea what happens when you are asleep though! I just get hungry so I always want to snack.

Obviously protein comes in the form of milk and cheese and egg and nuts , so no, you don't need meat at every meal and my diet plan has plenty of non meat things. And yes you should have something protein at every meal, remember the 40:40:20 ratio of C, P and F which is not just about GI (obviously this advice pertains to me so you might want to be checking it out for yourself, but it is pretty much what the FS said)

With my diet plan, i am mixing and matching all over the place. I sometimes I might swap breakfast over with lunch eg have a toasted sandwhich at breakfast and the eggs on toast at lunch. Or I swap what the dinners around. The quotas remain the same but I take it as following the principles.


Examples

LUNCH
small pocket bread with leand sandwich meat and salad
seeded bread (Bergen or Helgas seed sensations) with say low fat cheese (plus/minus vegemite)
Not on my plan but Oporto does a really nice grilled chicken salad - just say no to the lashing of creamy sauce. Very tasty when you are out and about and are stuck and starving in a food court.


SNACKS
vita weet crackers and low fat cheese
nuts and fruit (she recommended lucky nuts which are small boxes of raw nuts you might put in a lunch box - so I should probably stop by nice tasy salted versions which have vegie oil on them)
No dried fruit or fruit muesli bars

(occasionally I have cracked and had my breakfast cereal combo again but I know this is probably not very good thing as my daily quotas will go up)

DRINKS
1 low joule drink per day limt (I rarely have anything)
madura tea (for the caffeine benefits though I reckon it has more than decaf coffee)
water


Good Luck!

BTW I just sniffed a half eaten Lindt bunny, and really wish I hadn't!

Sophie and Entreat

Thanks so much for all your info - I've been trying hard to stick to my low gi and low sugar diet and have been finding it ok apart from the blow out I had tonight at my brother's wedding (mashed potato/dessert/soft drink) eeek!

Hope you're all going well!

Hi Milly's Mummy and Bub

I hope you are well!

After my last neg test I went to the dietician and skipped my next cycle as I was over it, needed to save more $ and the diet needed to be cemented in. I have since completed a new cycle and I have just had my egg retrieval today (7) and the FS did the ultrasound himself the other day and said this is the best stimulation I have had. Obvioulsy will know more when days goes by with transfer in 5 days.

Three new variables are involved here
- Mild stim with different drugs and slight increased FSH (gonal F 75s and the last 3 days were puregon 50)
- The diet 40:40:20 (Protein:Carbs:Fat)
- I am taking adifferent multivatamin with iodine plus fish oil tablets as per the dietician (I just stuck this in for test rigidity sake!)
My stress level are still the same which will always impact hormones - 1 yoga session and a few walks don't really negate your nanna dying and having to drop allyour appts and geta flight at short notice and not knowing how on earth this is all going to fit around your cycle!

Any updates following diet and new cycles??
Sophie

Hi Sophie and Bub

Wow Sophie, sounds like you had a great cycle so far, fingers crossed things continue to go well and you recover ok! So sorry to hear about your Nana though, sending hugs and hope you're ok.

Well I'm just about to go for my blood test on Friday, eek! I entered my cycle with high hopes for my diet (low gi, low sugar, good amount of fruits and vegies and healthy protein), but I didn't cope at all well with the synarel, I had severe vision blurring migraines, that caused me to vomit. So I ate very poorly, whatever I could handle. Then I got OHSS after my hcg injection and was very uncomfortable with a 6 month pregnant looking stomach, I was in agony for about 4 days after the EPU, and I thought I was being a wuss as I have had 2 EPU's before and didn't experience too much pain. Anyway sorry to ramble.

But FS said I had about 16-18 follies, and we got 13 eggs, of those 7 fertilised and 2 made it to day 5 for transfer - yay! I'm not sure whether the others didn't fertilise because of maturity or sperm issues as we did half ivf and half icsi. But only 1 ivf one fertilised and 6 icsi ones. I cheated today and poas..........it was a very very faint positive, but i'm quite nervous as all my crinone has been coming out brown and I've had pink spotting on my toilet paper :( I am hoping everything is ok though.

It was good to hear from you Sophie!

I really hope your cycles are going well too!

Gosh what a nightmare roller coaster for you MM, which unfortunately you have been on plenty of times before!! Despite all of that your ratios have improved significantly haven't they in relation to viability at 5 day transfer compared to your egg pick up numbers. Before it was one fifth were fertilised and this cycle it was over half. That is an indication of much better quality isn't it and possibly the introduction of ICSI if you weren't doing it before.

I guess if you were doing well on the diet and if they know that synarel has this effect on you they will now know to try you on something else and make it easier for future if you need it. I use a drug delivered by needle instead of synarel - I kept getting worried on whether or not the pump action had worked and the ramifications of repeating it or perhaps my follicles popping.

Best wishes for a glorious outcome tomorrow - I have never ever had any POAS excitement before so I hope this is exactly what it is indicating. My fingers XXX and do try to have something nice planned for tomorrow evening to reward yourself for everything you have done whatever happens.

Hi Sophie

Sorry for the late reply we had a really busy weekend. Thankyou for all of your help and info and support, I really appreciate it! I hope everything is going well with your little embies and that they are ready for transfer tomorrow. Am really praying you gets lots of poas excitement this time and that your new diet has your womb all cosy and ready!

My blood test came back positive (hooray!) and I have another one on Monday to check my levels are rising.

Yes I think you are right the icsi did help our fertilisation rates. Even though our swimmer numbers are low the lab still deemed them fine for ivf but i guess i'm glad FS made us go half ivf and half icsi. I got a letter from the lab the other day though and found out our 1 little ivf emby made it to blast and only 1 of our 6 icsi ones made it to blast. I thought that was interesting.

Wishing you all the best for tomorrow, I hope everthing goes really well!

xoxo

After my 4th blood test, my hcg levels are now dropping................FS said I will probably miscarry over the weekend

So sorry :hug:

Oh God MM you have been really battered about, I am really sorry to hear your news. Last night I wrote you a big long response telling you how absolutely happy I was to hear your news and that I had been hanging out for it and trying ot judge by the number of days that went by if that was good or bad - so probably best it did get lost in cyber space. Despite my exuberance I acknowledged your need to be cautious. So many milestones to get past, and you don't know about them all until you trip over them. People around you will always say why be so negative or cautious during a cycle but how on earth do you protect yourself when you get flattened so many times.

You seriously need some wine and chocolate and snuggling in over the weekend with some good books/mags. Thank goodness I have found the struggles have brought my husband and I so much closer, so despite the hormones and misery I hope this happens for you both. A bit of a break from your ivf might be a good thing then come back reinvigorated and some different meds to help the whole diet and hysperstimulation thing sort out. Please don't give up..I hope that I can give you an inspirational story to the many out there. I had 2 embryo's transferred on Monday (1 was able to be frozen at day 6 a bit slow) and will find out next Thursday.

When you are ready please stay in touch.
take care of yourself!
Sophie xx

Thanks Marcellus and Sophie

I really appreciate your encouragement. Chocolate and snuggles sound like a good idea, I think I will be having a break for quite a while.... I didn't handle the last stim cycle well and think I need some time out without thinking about it (and to work on my diet!)

Oh yay! Thats such good news so far, I was so worried that you didn't make it to transfer when I didn't hear from you for a few days! Phew, I'm so glad you got such good results after a horrid time before. It still brings me joy and encouragement to hear when others cycles are going well. Sending you lots of sticky vibes, prayers, and hopefully fun/relaxing things to distract yourself with! So often I feel like my life is in slow motion over the 2ww.

Take care and wishing you all the best!!!

Oh guys I got a big fat negative. Not much I can say. Thought i was in for a treat and am so dissapointed. i have just eaten a big fat chocolate donut!

My HCG was 2 which probably means they didn't even take a bite - I really thought with my sore boobs, headache and bizarre dreams (my husband became a korean version of himself) something could be building. I did wonder if my sore boobs going away at Day 13 perhaps something was amiss - I asked the nurse to check with the Doctor after my result. I have one little frozen day 6 emby left and it really doesn't thrill me to go through this again with the odds stacked so highly against me this time, the poor little thing is actually annoying me. I know keep up the positive attitude but I really honestly don't think that makes a single amount of difference - I have tried on every attitude under the sun and rotated them and the result is always the sympathy call from the clinic. Still I am lucky that I didn't have something to begin with and lose it like MM.

This is still about egg quality for me so I will check in with my next result from the frozen embie and if I start a new cycle. I would love to keep hearing other peoples stories..
Hopefully less of a misery guts next time round and a big thanks for the support.
Sophie

Sophie, your situation sounds fairly similar to what I went through at times... All the right symptoms and then bang on time AF starts... and it was agonisingly painful and clotty and crampy and just ick.

Thing is... if you have ANY HCG in your system at all, that embryo gave it a red hot go. My clinic didn't admit this to me until I asked - they said anything less than 10 was a BFN, but if it was somewhere between 0 and 10 it is actually a chemical pregnancy. I went through that hell twice, and it was actually a weird kind of relief when I got my first HCG=0 BFN.

Anyway, what eventually worked for us was getting through a stim cycle with less eggs, they were collected a tad early and a lot were immature, but we finally had better quality. It was the low GI, low carb thing that worked in the end. The 18 month old boy that is a result of that cycle is currently sleeping on my chest.

I just want to say hang in there. I know the hell you are living in right now, and I also know that you are close... so very close. It may be horrible to say, but I think that in your situation (because I've been there) I wouldn't be pinning my hopes on that frozen embryo, but working on lifestyle and diet and doing everything you can to try to get better eggs in the next collection. Make your partner do the same - you can't tell me that the quality of the sperm doesn't count, and it's always easier to make the changes if your partner joins in too. :hug:

BW

Oh Sophie sending hugs, you have every right to grieve, you did everything you could, I'm so sorry it didn't work this month. The roller coaster is awful, to have such good news throughout your cycle and through all the waiting and anticipation and then it all goes horrible.

We've been having more dramas, my miscarriage hasn't come yet......only some browny reddy leaking each day (sorry tmi). I started feeling pregnant againand rang up my clinic and asked for another blood test. My levels are above 1030, I've also been having some nagging pains in my left side for the past 2 weeks that I told them about. There was a bit of a lump on the u/s today so FS is quite sure its ectopic and wanted to do a lap today to remove it (unless its just some stray placenta?). But then when I got to the clinic this morning I started cramping with red blood and I think my AF has finally arrived, but I only have cramping on my left side! So I've decided to get one more blood test tomorrow and if my levels haven't dropped I'll get the lap done tomorrow.

I know it sounds stupid and I've never really had a break from fertility treatment before but I can't wait for this to be over so I don't have to think about it for a few months/maybe years! Every cycle I tell myself I will be mentally strong and not think about it and not wait for appointments and ultrasounds and phone calls and procedures. But I always cave and let it consume me a bit. Sometimes I feel like for the tww my life is on hold or in slow motion!

I really hope you can have a nice rest over the weekend and pamper yourself, not that that will make it any better but try not to be too hard on yourself. I know I can't help, but if you need to vent I'll be here. Take care!

Hi

It turned out to be ectopic, poor little thing. When I saw FS yesterday he said I should have a lap done that day. But it was my sisters engagment party that night and I really wanted to go and the pain wasn't all that bad............but then the pain got a lot worse :( , I had to go the emergency room at 8.30 last night and I had a lap and my tube removed. I'm ok now just a bit sore.

Hope you're taking it easy this weekend

Oh MM I just read this post. Cripes, an ectopic, then the tube, then the lap. That is hideously horrible, I am so sorry. To me it is always much harder for a girl to have something and have it taken away from her than to not have it at all. I hope you are ok and the mental break is now doing you some good..

I don't understand how you can get an ectopic with IVF? It might be very obvious and I have heard of it before but I don't get it? I guess in itself if you do IVF again one missing tube would not affect the overall process would it, though you might feel a bit strange about the idea of something missing?? MM did you ever find out if the emby was ok in itself? What do you think you will do next if at all?


I changed direction completely. I felt so uneasy about the day 6 day old frozen blastocyst and googled somewhere I would have an 11% chance of it working and to me the emotional side of it all I could not cope with those odds. I was talking to my friend who was just near on giving birth to her IVF twins when she got quite stuck into me about the whole business. I felt like I had been lulled into a false sense of security as normally I don't let myself obsess about my IVF (maybe I do now a bit more) where as she always did and she was talking about how all this extra emotional womanly feelings about my right to have a baby and etc etc so I agreed. Then she ripped into me about getting a second opinion and that I could have had a baby by now etc.. my husband would bet on a horse why not on a baby .. It was quite horrible however I knew it was a matter of being cruel to be kind... but the manner was horrid.. I guess because she is a school teacher she feels this is ok to do. i don't quite know where people get off with this I have to say, i would never ever think to speak to somebody like that even if iwas concerned. I guess it is all good now however i remember them almost giving up and crap things happening in their cycle (like eggs getting stuck and not coming out at retrieval!) Sorry a bit of a rant I know..

I agree I have always felt some intermittent unease with my FS for personality reasons (he can be very philosophical and blunt rather than give me a consistent scientific response) and I have had a few other concerns, but there has been an overwhelming sense of we are on the verge of a break through and also, not wanting to start again with somebody new with more wasted cycles. My husband says he was always idealistic too, that you would complete a journey together and whilst our FS is not the best communicator he is probably a genious who knows how this is going to pan out anyway..

So I ended up going to have a second opinion with her FS, Prof Illingworth and he was very nice and perhaps just the type of FS I had needed all along, reassuring and dependable and scientific. He said that a 33 year old affluent female with blastocysts should have fallen pregnant by now. Seven ICSI cycles without success is astounding. I had some lab results send to him and brought a few copies of my cycle protocols. He was not concerned about my diet (obviously I don't eat takeaway everynight and I am not guzzling junk food). Without any sense of pressure to stay with him, he said we need to take a step back and re assess. He feels very positive we are going to walk away with a baby which is fantastic and my husband later said he almost cried at the appt he was so relieved. Prof Illingworth is looking at all angles: 1) a different cycle protocol (not mild stimulation with no blood tests like my guy does) and checking of the uterine lining (never had this measured before) 2) sperm DNA fragmentation test 3) gene testing for both of us 4) some other blood tests for metabolic issues 5) a sonohysterogram to look at my uterine lining plus there are other things we will look at later if needed like a uterine biopsy to see if there is any immune reaction from my uterus.

So basically see if there is anything inherently wrong with the genes (eg a mismatch between the karotypes), anything wrong with the uterus affecting implantation, and also he agreed with much better monitoring. We see him on the 9 August and I am quite excited, I would be happy to know there is something that can be pinpointed that is solvable so we can as Julia Gillard would say, "move forward". Even if it is something that is gene related that is not solvable but has to be worked around that is ok too because we are at least a bit closer in knowing what to do to have a baby.

I'll let you know how I go.

Take Care MM and all others on their cycles!
Sophie

Hi Sophie

I'm finally starting to feel better in myself. I know I shouldn't whinge, but I guess I never imagined having this many problems, with miscarriages considering everything went ok with our first two babies (even though hubby and I are both infertile). I think i'm too scared to go back at the moment and part of me wants to go back and another part of me really doesn't. My best friend finally had her bub who was due at the same time our little boy was due, I'm happy for her, but it was such a cruel reminder for some time.

Anyway, glad you are going along well and have a plan, you always sound so positive! I really hope you get you bfp this cycle and that everything just falls into place perfectly. At least you know your other little embie is there if you need it later on. I'm glad you're happy with your new FS, it did sound like you had quite a few problems with your other cycles, but its never nice when friends use a harsh tone, I would have cried. Did she just feel really passionate about wanting to see you happy too?

I have to get back onto my diet, have been a bit naughty with chocolate, although it has been a good mood stabiliser I admit!

Take care - let us know how you go FX!

hi sophie

just wanted to say hi, hoping your cycle with your new fs went or is going well!

take care

Hey MM!
Good to hear you are feeling better and less sad..i guess now is the time to be strategic about in what ways you are willing to have a new baby come into your life and the best way to get that for you...with IVF sometimes it is just trial the same thing over and over (like rolling 2 sixes) and the sucess is worth the misery. I saw this video on the net with Dr Ric Gordon & Jessica Rowe on the Today Show and at the end he stated the he had one lady cycle 23 times and she now has a baby and says it is all worth it. I reckon she must have been old and rich for that to go down but it goes to show you that it can happen.

For me once a calm crust has formed over the emotions of failed cycles i am all ready to go again. In the beginning it was more power through as many cycles as we could do one after the other to make the baby come quicker, now I realise how much investment goes into it and how distracted I can get. I also realise I need to be more strategic. I have my moments I have all the international adoption info off the aust govt website printed off - and could have an asian baby within 2.5 years - but when I weighed up for both IVF baby and adopted baby: financial investment, the amount of time to baby/child arrival, emotional investment now, and emotional issues when the child is an adult - I realised IVF is still the best thing for me and again I felt calm and assured.

So, yes have started with the new FS and brought my frozen emby across. All our test results came back normal. Yes my endo has come back a bit but this is not an issue. My doctor says it is basically unexplained and should work through the blastocyst cycles. Said he could see my head in my hands but there was nothing i could influence and that my many eggs is not to do with insulin resistence I just have alot of eggs. So he has changed my cycle protocol over and is doing regular blood tests (every second day).

So started my cycle on 4th october and IF ALL GOES WELL hopefully pick up by friday 16th or monday 18th then IF ALL GOES WELL day 5 blastocyst possibly with my frozen emby.

For now, my hormones are all over the shop -I am tired, erratic, can' t concentrate. I can't drive without getting lost!, i missed a turn out of the city and ended up at QANTAS departures today !! I drove around the same block for about 15 mins not knowing where on earth I was despite a street directory and clearly marked signs. I didn't sleep one night all stressec about the idea of co-sleeping with a baby for goodness sake (we had met a couple of friends with a brand new baby who sleeps in their bed and my husband goes and says that is a great idea - imagine squashing your ivf baby!!!). People can't wait to get off the phone from me - I am way too intense and just yabba..hence my long posts!

I'll let you know how I go with this cycle. (Ultimately I refuse to walk away from this clinic until I get what I came for)
Take good care of yourself MM and keep me posted.