Completely Desperate!

Hi all,

I'm at my wits' end here!

Baby is 8 weeks and 1 day. Feeding was excruciating in hospital, so I expressed full-time from day 3 to 7 weeks. Have been breastfeeding with 1 express each day for 8 days now.

Expressing was painful, some times more than others. I treated myself with daktarin gel in case I had thrush. I really have no idea if it helped or not.

Breastfeeding is very very painful, especially for the first minute. I know it's often painful when your body is still getting used to it, but I'm at the point where I dread the next feed. Very occasionally I'll have a feed that doesn't hurt much at all after the first minute.

I am on my second tube of daktarin. I sometimes get shooting pains in my breasts. My nipples are very red and hurt pretty much constantly - even if exposed to nothing but air. Hurts to touch them, to dry them with a towel, etc etc.

I have seen child health nurse, doctor, pharmacist, and they all think it's thrush (although none have seen my breasts). But I feel like the daktarin isn't really doing anything (using it after every feed at the moment).

I just don't know if it's thrush or something else, like incorrect latching. I am exhausted from being in pain so much. Has anyone been through this, and what does it sound like to you?

Thanks for reading!

I haven't had thrush before so I am not really sure about that, but my first instinct from reading your post was to get your attachment looked at and see if there are any issues. Early on I was experiencing very very sore nipples and thought my attachment was fine and that my nipples were just getting used to feeding. Then I saw a LC for a routine postnatal appointment, she pointed out one small thing for me to do and it got sooooo much better.

ETA - I should say my nipples were quite grazed from the dodgy attachment. Would you say the feel like they are grazed? If they do get some breast milk onto them and let them air dry.

:hug: You've had a rough start, but well done on perservering so long. You really do need to get this fixed though - you can take this pain for only so long!

Hon, you NEED to see a lactation consultant or ABA counsellor - someone with expertise in breastfeeding and breastfeeding problems. It could well be something as simple to fix as incorrect attachment - an expert will watch you feed and help you from there, it's really the only way to get it right.

The ABA have a 24-hour helpline you can call for advice 1800-mum-2-mum
You can also look here for lactation consultant recommendations - they cost, but it's well worth it. Or your hospital may have LCs on staff that can help you out - give them a call.

Good luck!

Great advice from the others to seek help from a LC or the ABA.

If it is thrush, you need to be treating bub as well, or bub will just be re-infecting you. Check your baby's mouth for white spots.. that's a tell tale sign. Maybe get your GP to check both of you?

I'm sorry to hear it's been so painful for so long. Hopefully it is something that can be fixed quickly. Hang in there.. I'm sure it'll get better. Well done for sticking with it :)

Just offering some hugs. You CAN get through this. I swore blue murder during feeds in the early days. If it is thrush then you need to get professional advice. As Liz said- bub needs to be treated too.

I second third and fourth the advice to ring the ABA. They are brilliant and are used to people calling up in tears with screaming babies in the background... Please don't hesitate to call them as often as you need!

My only other thought is vasospasm. I had this and it was so painful in the early weeks. It is a constriction of blood flow to the nipple and is generally exacerbated by grazing to the nipple. It hurt to have my nipples exposed to the air and after showers was UNBEARABLE. My nipples would shrivel and be so sore!!! The latching on made me screach and then it would pass and pain would return towards the end of the feed. Do you have a history of poor circulation or chill blaines?

If you think you may have it, a warm washer on your nipples before a feed and cover them warmly after a shower should help. Mine went away by the 10 week mark I think, once bub had a better attachment, which improved as she got bigger and I was more confident.

We're still feeding 16 months on. It's so worth the perserverance!!!

:grouphug: keep us updated

Thank you ladies for your supoort and encouragement. I am feeding atm and have shifted his position a bit, which helped a little. Will get onto ABA tomorrow (I know I can call anytime but I feel bad waking up some poor mum if it's not life-threatening!). I also have a GP appt for Monday so if things aren't better will have a talk about the thrush.

I don't know if it's related but I feel like I've had my happy little sleeper disappear this week! Up until Sunday, he has been going 5-6 hours between feeds (even up to 9!) and sleeping really well in between. Now we're suddenly at 4 hours, with a lot of unsettledness in between. I don't know if it's related to the feeding - I've wondered if he's not filling up enough? I never feel like he feeds properly - he gets really sleepy and by the end I'm tickling him every 30 seconds to keep sucking. So then when I think he's just comfort sucking I take him off (too sore to be used like that!) - usually this means he has about 30 minute feeds. I've been offering only one side as he has had green nappies so trying to see if that helps. He's also having 4-5-6 poos per day (usually while feeding), and his weight gain since starting breastfeeding 9 days ago has been poor at around 140g in 10 days (up until then had been excellent. Dr says it has to average out sometime but is checking him again on Monday).

I just don't know how to tell if he's had enough and I feel like I don't have a clue what I'm doing. But I feel like no one person is able to look at everything that's going on - ABA or LC won't be able to help with the more medical side of things (nappies, thrush, weight) but dr doesn't have time to deal with breastfeeding. So I've just been doing heaps of research myself, but being in pain and with increasingly less sleep I'm not really able to experiment too much - I need answers now iykwim? If I have cracked/grazed nipples (and I wouldn't have a clue what they look like) then treating for thrush will stop them healing and vice versa. It's also hard to explain to a screaming baby that they just need to wait while I try a new position.

Thanks for listening - I had no idea bfeeding would be this hard!

I think it sounds like vasospasm too. I don't know much about it, but I've heard about it here on BB. Try putting a warm face washer on your nipple just befor you attatch.

I tried that once & it worked miracles! No pain with attatchment at all. I stopped feeding my first 2 & struggled with my third & I now think vasospasm is why. Although I can't be too sure. I need to do some research before I start feeding this bub.

He might be having a growth spurt & thats why he's so unsettled at the moment. It is common for a new baby to breast feed every 2 hours during the day & they often cluster feed early in the evening, then will sometimes sleep very well at night. These feed times can be all over the place though, with the longer sleep is during the day.

Every baby is different, so keep to his lead with the feeding times. 5 - 6 hours between feeds is fine maybe once a day, but I'd be offering to him every 2 - 3 hours, as that sounds like too long between all feeds to me.
Try getting in touch with a LC & the ABA & see how you go. Good luck.

Get your Doctor to take a swab of your nipple and bubs mouth and rule out any bacterial infections too.
You sound like you need a total expert for your own piece of mind - where abouts are you? There are some GP/LCs out there!

Dear Sunshine,
Congratulations on your baby and well done for getting this far with your breastfeeding.

I personally would not be worried about the change in weight gain yet. You said you went from giving EBM to breastfeeding at week 7. Now bubs is in control and not getting the regulated amount as before. It would be normal i would think for a drop in weight gain while your little one gets used to breast feeding and being in control. I expressed for 6 1/2 weeks before DD was strong enough for breastfeeding as she was premmie. She was previously getting EBM via a nasogastric tube and was often asleep when it was given every 3 hours. I was so worried when I went home and was bf'ing that she was going hungry. Plenty of wet nappies reassured me. She put on weight slowly at first, in fact the first 3 days she only put on 30 grams! Just get weighed regularly and see how it goes over a longer period.

You mention that your boy has changed his sleep patterns etc. He would be almost 8 weeks? At 8 weeks corrected my DD started to change. It may be a growth spurt so he will be increasing your supply. Look up "wonder week", a developmental change that he is going through that could be leading to him being more unsettled. One thing I have learnt is that you get in to a pattern and then boom the little ones change it on us. Check out wonder weeks on the internet.

I hope the GP/ABA/LC is able to help with the nipples and get you painfree soon.

:hug: :hug: :hug:

Breastfeeding is hard for everyone at times!

The ABA and an LC know a lot about weight gains and thrush etc. An LC is a professional who should be able to coach you through this. it is money well spent!

Now its a more reasonable hour, please ring the ABA its 1800-mum-2-mum. They can get you started on sorting this out.

You're doing so well. Babies always change when you're onto something good. Fortunately they also outgrow the crappy times too. Hang in there!

Yep, an LC can definitely help with the medical side of things also. ALmost everything at this age is related to feeding, so LCs can do thrush, weight, unsettledness, sleeping.... ABA can also offer advice on all those things too.

Weight gains should alwasy be considered averaged over a month or so - they will vary a great deal from week to week. 140g in 10 days in not too bad, really, so don't stress out just yet :hug:

The sudden increase in feeding and unsettledness is very common, you'll find it happens every now and then.

Hang in there

The frequent feeding could be one of a few things, a growth spurt (totally normal and you just have to ride the frequent feeding out) or incorrect attachment (meaning he isn't feeding effectively each feed, then gets hungry quicker), or as some one else suggested as you have been expressing you have been in control of the amount he is having and now he is in control and your body just needs a couple of days to work out to make extra milk to supply his demand.

I understand what you mean about finding it hard to find one person that can help on all fronts. At the hospital I delivered they had a midwife/LC (one person) who you could make an appointment with for this type of stuff. Perhaps ring your hospital and find out if they have something similar?

Good luck...x

Thanks for all your replies.

Just talked to ABA and she said it doesn't sound like attachment. She also thinks if I've been using daktarin for about 6 weeks then unlikely to be thrush. She thinks it might be a bacterial infection.

Has anyone experienced this?

*bump*

Hi ladies,

Thought I'd give you an update. It's been about 24hrs since I stopped using the Daktarin, and nipples have improved 100% in terms of general soreness - still quite pink though. Still getting excruciating pain at the beginning of a feed - will go to a bfeeding class tomorrow to check attachment. However, now I'm getting the deep stabbing pain between feeds - isn't awful, but tells me that there is still something going on that shouldn't be. I know thrush can cause this, but it confuses me why nipples have improved if I've stopped Daktarin? If the thrush has moved in more deeply, maybe I don't have it on the surface anymore? Am going to GP on Monday, but would love to hear of anyone else's experience with this.

Thanks again for your support and encouragement - has made a huge difference over the past few days! :)

Could it be your let down you are feeling? Did you try the warm face washer. If its vasospasm that could help. Can't hurt to rule it out.

i had saw nipples for about the first 6-8 weeks too.. Then one day it just vanished. They take a while to toughen up. I have read somewhere that if there is no pain after 20 seconds of bub sucking then it's not attachment, but just general "getting use to it" Pain.
I used 'marcalan' cream to sooth sore nipples. It is the BEST stuff out! I never got cracked nipples because it helps keep the supple.
WRT to the shooting pains it does sound a bit like thrush... perhaps when you see your DR or CHN next get them to actually look at both you and your bubs. I hope it settles down for you, I konw what it's like for the pain and dread to be that bad you just want to chuck it in! Hung in there, chick! xx

Tha

Clover - I think you may be right about the shooting pains being the let-down. I've tried the heat for when I've been engorged - has helped. Haven't been able to do it before a bfeed as he's been crying for his milk! :doh:

Thanks for your encouragement Teagz.

So here is where I'm at now (with thanks to everyone's advice and ABA):
- pretty sure it's not thrush (don't have the same symptoms when I switch to expressing)
- pretty sure its an attachment issue
- have been using football hold
- have stopped all creams, lotions etc (ABA advice) and just using breastmilk and sunlight
- have had a couple of relatively ok feeds
- have still had some excruciating feeds - ends in tears
- still very red and aggrevated but no cracks or grazes
- am having vasospasm - have seen tips turn white to pink and it burns
- think vasospasm is related to painful feeds - perhaps damage is causing it? Is worse after a bad feed

The attachment
- baby's lips aren't fanned out like they should be. Pain reduces a bit when I do it manually, but is there a way to get it right from the outset?
- tongue is in the correct place
- I am getting pinched nipples during feeds - think that also might be a source of pain - how can I prevent this?

(sorry am typing 1-handed!)

Thanks again for all your help, and please let me know if you have any ideas on improving attachment!

Has be been checked for tongue tie at all?

Hi Marcellus

Yep - all clear with tongue-tie

hmmm. sounds like you might need a trouble-shooter LC... Some have great reputations for solving seemingly intractable problems.
Anyway, sorry I can't actually offer any advice - what you describe sounds very much like my son. Was told over and over that attachment was right etc etc, but it really wasn't. I finally ended up using sheidls for nearly 2 months, then at around 11 weeks he just finally was able to latch on without squashing my nipple. One of the LCs I saw said he had a slight TT, but didn't think it would affect feeding. Was told my GP etc that it didn't need clipping. I suspect it actually did, and he couldn't latch properly till his mouth was much larger.
:hug:

i agree with marcellus, i think you really need to see a knowledgable LC. maybe someone from the BC class tomorrow can help you further?
hang in there hun

Hey I've only skimmed through the replies, so I'm sorry if I repeat someone elses suggetions, but here goes:

Attachment : I'm hoping you have an LC booked. In the meantime, check out youtube videos of correct latch/how to fix a bad latch etc. Type in "breastfeeding Dr Jack Newman" I found those really helpful.

Cradle hold is usually easiest and most efficient feeding position.. easiest to get a good latch.. but if you are happy with football, don't go changing, it'll just stress you out more!

Have you tried Baby Led attachment? (Lying on your back, baby on your belly) I found that this position was sometimes the only one that wouldn't hurt/wouldn't make baby scream.

Stabbing Pains: I find the let down quite painful... Like a strong shooting surge in my chest...

Lips not fanned out : Not a perfect latch, get your nipple level with baby's nose so that baby's head has to tilt back to latch, resulting in most of the nipple at the bottom of baby's mouth.. Baby's nose should point out into the air, not touching any breast (unless you have very large breasts, in that case I'm not sure..)
DD still doesn't always get her lips fanned out, often it's the top lip that I have to flick out with my finger.

Pinched Nipples : Can you feel baby pinching down during feeds? If so, unlatch immediately.
It could however maybe be due to not enough nipple in baby's mouth?
DD sometimes clamps down on me at the end of a feed.. some kind of expression of contentment. But if you are experiencing constant pinching during a feed, something needs to change!

Sore Nipples: My nipples were always SO sore and sensitive and unbearable to touch, even though they looked perfectly fine. I think this is just your nipples getting used to bf.
Of course, it could be all the pinching.

Have faith, breastfeeding was a huge ordeal for me till about 8 weeks, then from then on it all just fell into place and now it's as easy as pie.
Just keep feeding baby whenever he/she is hungry. Try to feed before baby cries, makes it much easier to latch. Try to avoid using bottles at this stage, as it might confuse baby.

Best of luck, stay strong, you will get through this!!

Surprised hun, it sounds like a very painful few weeks for you :hug: You have done an amazing job of getting through it so far :hug:

Best of luck with the class tomorrow. Sometimes when a baby's lips don't flange well, it can be due to a tight frenulum (the bit that holds your lip to your gum - there is one on top and one on the bottom. Just like a tongue-tie, sometimes one of these is too tight and needs to be snipped. A really good LC is one of the best options for having this diagnosed, but you could also see a paed or GP who is experienced in that area.

Shooting pain that lasts between feeds is often thrush, but could be bacterial. Thrush can be in the breast itself rather than the nipple (or just the nipple) so this is still a possibility. Unfortunately this can be hard to diagnose - swabs are very unreliable in these cases. One of those one-dose thrush tablets might not hurt in this case to clear up any internal thrush that might be hanging around. I also posted some thrush ideas for another poster here - https://www.bellybelly.com.au/forums...time-wean.html.

Best of luck with it hun - I really hope you are pain free soon. Keep up the great work hun :hug: