Why is ok to say, skinny and not fat?

I dont believe in making people feel crappy, about themselves etc.

But for as long as I can remember I have ahd "Gee your skinny" and be looked up and down like Im sick?!

Im not sick, Im 54kgs and long, I eat like a horse!

What Im getting at is why do people think its ok to say this, yet I never hear people say to somebody "Gee, you've stacked on the weight!" Or "Your fat, arn't you!"

:lol::redface:

When I was younger I would get these comments and HATED my weight:( Its still with me to question how I look. I hate it. Just because Im thin doesn't mean I love my body etc.

So tell me, why do you think its ok/ not ok?

:hug: aww hun I have no idea...but know how you feel...well the old me does lol!

I could have written that myself. I've got that too all my life "geez how skinny are you". I always felt that I must look sick. I think people just don't realise that for some people it is so hard to put on weight just as some people struggle to loose weight.

Regards,
Dianne

I don't think it is. Which is why I use neither word, and if someone says it to you and you don't like it then I would definitely say something about it.

The reason I think it's ok is because generally when I grew up you strived to be skinny it was a positive thing. Where as being fat was a negative kwim?

I think now thanks to extremely underweight celebrities skinny has also become a negative.

:redface: I say that to a couple of my friends all the time :redface: I freely admit, its a jealousy thing - I wish I was as skinny as them! And I can pretty well guarantee that, while they may want to put on weight, they definitely don't wanna be my size. I've told them I'm happy to donate my extra to them, and then we'll both be more happy, LOL.

And for the record - people do say, 'wow, you've stacked on the weight' as well as other horrible things. I hate eating in public, because some people look at an overweight person eating and automatically judge them, and if no-ones ACTUALLY judging, I feel like they're judging. I was shocked at the comments my husband got from friends a few months after we got married, and from shop assistants when we went to buy him a suit recently - NOTHING like what gets said to women, no-one would dare say those things to a woman. 'Geez mate, you're obviously spending more time in the fridge than the bedroom', 'No mate, you're certainly a big boy, we just don't go that far up', - and that's just SOME!

*off soapbox*

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:redface: I say that to a couple of my friends all the time :redface: I freely admit, its a jealousy thing - I wish I was as skinny as them! And I can pretty well guarantee that, while they may want to put on weight, they definitely don't wanna be my size. I've told them I'm happy to donate my extra to them, and then we'll both be more happy, LOL.

And for the record - people do say, 'wow, you've stacked on the weight' as well as other horrible things. I hate eating in public, because some people look at an overweight person eating and automatically judge them, and if no-ones ACTUALLY judging, I feel like they're judging. I was shocked at the comments my husband got from friends a few months after we got married, and from shop assistants when we went to buy him a suit recently - NOTHING like what gets said to women, no-one would dare say those things to a woman. 'Geez mate, you're obviously spending more time in the fridge than the bedroom', 'No mate, you're certainly a big boy, we just don't go that far up', - and that's just SOME!

*off soapbox*

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Thats so bad!!!!!

I have had people ask me how I can eat so much and stay skinny "So you go throw that back up, do you?"

Clearly people dont realise people come in all different shapes. I do admit I do worry if someone is obviously sick whether it be skinny or fat, kwim?

I don't think it's ok at all. If I was to comment on someones weight I would more likely say "you are so slim, what a beautiful figure" or "what's your secret, you look amazing". However more ofetn I just would not comment on someone weight because it is non of my business. I grew up being called fat and overly aware of how I looked and don't ever want to make someone feel like I did. The same applies during pregnancy when for some reason people think it's ok so say women are massive or fat. I stick to "what a beautiful bump" because not only is it flattering, it is also always true. I have never seen a non beautiful pregnant belly.

People simply don't think!

My sister used to tell me all the time that I was fat. I am 5'10", a size 12 on the bottom and 10 on the top and 70 kg's I am clearly not fat! She was always very very thin about a size 6-8 which for someone as tall as us is pretty thin. She is now considerably bigger in fact she's about a size 20 but I would never ever ever taunt her about being fat! I worry about her health I do admit, but I would never use the "F" word to her.

Some people just say things that can be hurtful without even realising it.

I think it is 'socially acceptable' to say 'skinny' but not 'fat', because people aspire to be skinny, no-one really aspires to be fat.

Now just because that is what society 'accepts' doesn't mean it isn't rude to say either. It is rude to comment on anothers weight regardless of if they are fat or skinny. On of the factors that lead me to gain weight was being teased as a child for being too skinny. Looking back at photos, I wasn't too skinny, just had a slight build. Now I don't have to worry about that, instead I get to worry about people commenting about how much 'bigger' I am and how I look good loosing weight, but how it is a 'shame about my belly' (lots of loose skin makes a buldge). People are idiots. As if I cann't see and judge my own flaws without their help. :rolleyes:

Another thing that would annoy me to no end was during my pregnancies as I carried small. When people would ask how many wks I was the look of shock on their faces. I got comments like "you know you should be eating for two" or "is there something wrong with your baby".

Regards,
Dianne

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Another thing that would annoy me to no end was during my pregnancies as I carried small. When people would ask how many wks I was the look of shock on their faces. I got comments like "you know you should be eating for two" or "is there something wrong with your baby".

Regards,
Dianne

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Omg people are really stupid!

I just dont like the tone. A friend told me "Gee you're so skinny, its discusting" ummmmmm, she's a size 8! She's hardly a big girl :rolleyes:

My dad used to just tell me to tell people I have hollow legs :lol:

It is very interesting isn't it how people fee free to make comment on one's weight? It can be very hurtful no matter where on the spectrum you happen to sit.
I think though sometimes people just blurt without realising or maybe even think commenting on "thinness" is a compliment. I am sure some people are just rude & nasty but I do think most times people don't think before engaging their oral muscles... :wall:

When I was a new mother of of the mums in my mums group explained how she lost her first child hours after birth. He was born at 32 weeks, having not grown properly (IUGR) and with her subsequent pregnancy she had frequent growth scans to check her baby. She told me how every time someone said he had a small bump she would turn up in tears at her doctors office demanding a scan to check her baby was growing. It really made me think about what I say with regards to a woman's bump size, hence why I never even comment on a bump being neat or small.

With the twins though I was so massive people could not help but comment. I used to joke my belly entered a room 5 mins before the rest of me :rofl:

Some folks soo dont think.
I read something years ago about how you can beat up on someone who smokes/drinks, but tell a fat person to stop eating macca's and its the end of the world.
So weird. LOL

*facepalm*

So it's ok to use a derogative term like fatty to make a point...?

Maybe its the whole media thing where they always show skinny (sometimes anorexic) which gives some people the idea that skinny is acceptable, therefore calling someone skinny must be ok...right?

Wrong, I think. When I lost all my excess weight so many people told me I was too skinny etc. I too was eating healthily and exercising. I am just leading a healthy lifestyle. I'm in the 'normal' weight range.

I guess its considered taboo to call someone fat, just as in the past picking on smokers was not acceptable either. But times have changed, some people probably almost feel its their duty to tell someone to stop smoking (I am guilty since losing Mum to lung cancer) for health reasons. But still, calling someone fat, while absolutely tactless, doesn't really help the situation either.

Can someone remind me, do more people die of smoking or obesity each year? What 'category' costs tax payers more to remedy.

Sorry, I've probably gone waaay off topic and I'm just rambling now.

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*facepalm*

So it's ok to use a derogative term like fatty to make a point...?

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LOL,Ok, will edit. But see my point, its perfectly acceptable to tell a smoker how disgusting and smelly they are, but the word fatty is wrong?

2 different addictions ( and I have had both-only got the fat one to give up LOL) But at the end of the day, same cure. Abstinence....

I think the reason being is that being overweight doesn't always mean unhealthy life style or overeating.

Thank you for editing it ;) It's actually good to talk about these things though.

I don't think it's off topic at all - that's how conversations evolve Leesa! :hug:

I don't know which but I do know both are unhealthy - JUST as being underweight is unhealthy. As you know I stacked on the weight whilst pregnant (& before) Immy due to the steroidal treatment needed to sustain a pregnancy for me. I have lost all of my weight now & I too get told I'm too skinny. I am smack bang in the healthy weight for my height.

I think political correctness has got a little out of control when heath care providers find it difficult to broach the weight issue on both ends... Also smoking as well. I too have strong anti smoking sentiments & find it appalling when people smoke in front of kids & others as it's just unhealthy & I don't feel it should be inflicted on others.

However, I have no qualms in saying so! That is my right as a dual occupant on planet Earth. Someone else's weight is their business. Whilst it does impact Iguess on the public purse it's not quite as "in your face" as smoking... (scuse the pun! :lol:)

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I don't think it's off topic at all - that's how conversations evolve Leesa! :hug:

I don't know which but I do know both are unhealthy - JUST as being underweight is unhealthy. As you know I stacked on the weight whilst pregnant (& before) Immy due to the steroidal treatment needed to sustain a pregnancy for me. I have lost all of my weight now & I too get told I'm too skinny. I am smack bang in the healthy weight for my height.

I think political correctness has got a little out of control when heath care providers find it difficult to broach the weight issue on both ends... Also smoking as well. I too have strong anti smoking sentiments & find it appalling when people smoke in front of kids & others as it's just unhealthy & I don't feel it should be inflicted on others.

However, I have no qualms in saying so! That is my right as a dual occupant on planet Earth. Someone else's weight is their business. Whilst it does impact Iguess on the public purse it's not quite as "in your face" as smoking... (scuse the pun! :lol:)

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Great point:) Smokeing can affect my children and I, somebodies weight, does not;)

I have been overweight most of my life, and just plain fat for the last few years.
When I moved out of home though I dropped masses of weight and people started telling me how good I looked, was ace.
Then when a few years later, I was a size 6 (I was over the moon when I could get into a XS Little Black Dress from Protmans for NYE lol) and all of a sudden I was ill, "sooo skinny". I honestly felt fabulous - best I had ever looked and I was really happy with my self for the first time in my life.
Funnily enough, not long after that I started to put weight on again, wanted to be a size 10, where people would think I was ill, and ended up a size 16 ;) I don;t know, maybe people had gotten so used to me being the frumpy one they were jealous when I rocked that dress at the Ferrari Grand Prix Party ;) :rofl: My lordy I was hot!

Now I just don't give a flying fig what people think - the only person I care about it my husband (and my health) aside that, everyone else can go jump....but I will get into that LBD one day soon hehehe DH loves it ;)

You know what, i find the whole weight issue to be the same as the BF issue (everyone has a medical reason LOL.)
In actual reality, there are very few people who are over weight for genuine medical reasons.
The vast majority of overweight folks are that way because of diet. you may not eat badly, but you eat too much.
Thats me, eat really well, hardly ever eat fast food, but I do tend to snack on carbs instead of fruit and am guilty of having seconds when I dont need them.
I know this is the case, because when I do actually make a point of stopping the extras, I loose the weight.
Call me harsh, I am a spade is a spade kind of girl. :)

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You know what, i find the whole weight issue to be the same as the BF issue (everyone has a medical reason LOL.)
In actual reality, there are very few people who are over weight for genuine medical reasons.
The vast majority of overweight folks are that way because of diet. you may not eat badly, but you eat too much.
Thats me, eat really well, hardly ever eat fast food, but I do tend to snack on carbs instead of fruit and am guilty of having seconds when I dont need them.
I know this is the case, because when I do actually make a point of stopping the extras, I loose the weight.
Call me harsh, I am a spade is a spade kind of girl. :)

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No, I get you;)

It runs in my genes to be thin. At 30 though we seem to have to work harder at keeping our weight under control;)

I hear you & I hope everyone can just discuss the issue without taking it personally! :hug:

It is an indisputable fact that obesity is due more than 90% of the time to over eating, incorrect eating or lack of exercise. We are not meant to carry around so much weight. I know personally I couldn't bend as well, my body ached more & I felt more labile. Now I actually feel like doing yoga, feel like walking because it's easier - physically easier...

We have huge portion sizes compared to what is necessary. Our stomach is the size of our fist. Most people have dinner plates 2 sometimes 3 sizes bigger! We eat so many carbs - refined carbs. White pasta, white bread, fats.

I don't believe it's an individual "fault" it's our societal norm to have these massive meals. We stopped listening to our bellies. We stopped using our bodies and moving our bodies!

Instead of food being a fuel it's now something we treat with. I never give my kids food as a reward for this reason. Food is meant to be social and enjoyed but not at the volume that has become normal.

I do't think you're harsh at all Shelley - I think it's very hard to speak about as people tend to get reactive. Both ends of the scales do! :hug:

Oh absolutely I don't deny that. But I think no one should ever make an assumption about anyone's lifestyle ever. It's no different than assuming that because someone is skinny they must starve themselves or throw up after every meal. You can't be upset at people making assumptions about your size or lifestyle and then go ahead and do the same to the other side. Well you can but it's highly hypocritical IMO.

I believe though that because the "average" sized woman has gone up to a size 16 a woman in the recommended healthy weight range is seen as "skinny". When she really is not! She's just healthy.

So our idea or our picture of what skinny is has probably changed and it is that healthy weight that is seen as "skinny" when really she's not!

Losing weight is difficult, it' takes commitment, strength and fortitude. We have a whole lot of media saying: "skinny is bad" well underweight isn't healthy and nor is over weight.

If you put in more calories than you exercise out. If you eat sugar and refined carbs on a big plate you will put on weight. It's a fact. If you reduce your calorie intake and up your exercise more than 90% will lose weight. BUT it sounds simple and it's not! Its hard work - thus a multi million dollar weight loss industry! Food is yummy! It has overcome our society. Fast food is everywhere...

However, there is no disputing that a healthy weight range is healthier for us as individuals, for our kids and for the public coffers. :hug:

It isn't alright to call anyone 'fatty' because doing so is just demeaning the person and does not do anything to help the person loose weight or get motivated to do so, rather it tends to have the opersite effect and cause them to give up and get even bigger.

Just as people shouldn't deride 'skinny' people, because a) you don't know if they are naturally that skinny, work hard to remain that skinny or have an illness that causes them to be that skinny; b) it doesn't matter what the answe to a) is, because it is none of your business!

I have been on both ends of the scale and honestly people should just learn to keep their mouths shut, fat or thin. Because I can guarantee you that the subject being examined is perfectly aware of just how fat or thin they are!

I agree Inanna, our perception of skinny has become skewed with the average woman being much bigger now than is healthy. I remember being told by my doctor I was obese, and complaining to girlfriends who all said that I was fine, and as I still fitted into a size 12/14 I figured the doc was just being mean. The doctor was, of course, absolutely correct in referring to my BMI which put me in the obese category.

When I started to lose the weight I got compliments at first, but as I neared a healthy weight I got lots of comments about getting "too skinny". It seems you can't please some people :lol:

An average (Western) woman has always been a size 14 or higher anyway. This is not a new thing.
Our bodies have never been that slim, size 10 was never average.

DH has always been skinny, probably always will be. When we first met he was quite underweight (Around 70kgs...he's 196cms) and lots of people (myself included) used to comment on it, not realising how much it hurt him. I remember often commenting on how much his ribs stuck out and telling him to eat more! I suppose because slim is perceived as being the 'normal' size in society we never seem to think of it as a bad thing, the slimmer you are the better (which of course is stupid). Not ever stopping to think that perhaps that skinny people are fighting their own kind of weight battle.

DH has always been the type of person who struggles to keep his weight up, he has to eat constantly to the point of not enjoying food and just a few days of being sick and bam! 5kgs down. A few years into our relationship I noticed he was starting to gain a bit of weight and put it down to him quitting smoking. Turns out he'd been using weight gain powder but was too embarrassed to tell me! I didn't find out for months. He felt silly that he had to resort to a supplement to put on weight...no one should have to feel like that!

I suppose all of that has taught me to be very careful what I say, just because someone is slim doesn't necessarily mean they like it and just because someone is larger doesn't mean they are unhappy or unhealthy. As long as YOU are happy with yourself that's all that matters right?

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It isn't alright to call anyone 'fatty' because doing so is just demeaning the person and does not do anything to help the person loose weight or get motivated to do so, rather it tends to have the opersite effect and cause them to give up and get even bigger.

Just as people shouldn't deride 'skinny' people, because a) you don't know if they are naturally that skinny, work hard to remain that skinny or have an illness that causes them to be that skinny; b) it doesn't matter what the answe to a) is, because it is none of your business!

I have been on both ends of the scale and honestly people should just learn to keep their mouths shut, fat or thin. Because I can guarantee you that the subject being examined is perfectly aware of just how fat or thin they are!

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I agree with you. I dont actually go around calling people fatties either, it was more a phrase than anything, "skinny/smoker/drinker/fatty" being one myself, I dont actually find the term to be that offensive. Maybe because of the above list, the only one I havent been is "skinny" LOL
But I do find it interesting that the number one health hazard in the western world is treated as a completly taboo subject.
How does this happen?

Haven't read the whole thread but just wanted to point out that BMIs were created by American insurance companies and are skewed to a low height/weight ratio in an attempt to disallow the average person from being insured as a healthy weight even if they're a size 12. BMIs should never be the be all and end all, and as someone with a BMI of 21 now, I can tell you I AM bordering on too skinny. Most bariatric surgeons now believe a healthy weight would put you at a BMI of 27.

Weight is a very emotive issue and I get really peeved when there is any insinuation that overweight people should just exercise more and eat less. I eat less than a 3 yo now to stay this thin (thanks to my lapband). Is that something someone should be able to sustain on their own? C'mon now. And exercising when you're heavy is very hard, sometimes painful and even with a lapband, many PCOS sufferers don't lose weight, because their body doesn't work like everyone else's. I had PCO and gained 25kgs in a year when I was younger. Was that me suddenly eating more and being lazy?

Weight is a personal thing and how you manage it should not be anyone else's business. And one thing I won't do as a thin person now is be unsympathetic to someone struggling with their weight. I could control everything on my life except my weight. It made me feel weak and powerless when I am actually an incredibly strong woman. And negative comments didn't help. Support for women should be not about preaching but about listening, and helping them figure out what works for them, whether they want to gain, lose, or are happy with how they are.

I'm sorry, maybe I'm not as emotionally mature as others - but I really am taking offense to a lot of these comments. I have been constantly taunted about being fat since I was in Primary school. I weighed exactly the same as my best friend in Yr 7, only she was 15 cm taller, and our teacher said I was lying and would weigh at least 10 kilo's more than my friend. I was pushed harder during PE than any of the other kids because I was bigger than them. But looking back, looking at my growth charts and comparing them, I was not at an unhealthy weight until I hit 14/15. I got the PCOS symptoms about 8 months before the weight started piling on, and there wasn't a damn thing I could do about it.

I think health problems account for more obesity cases than doctors say. Why are peoples metabolisms different? What is different in their brain chemistry's? Why can one person eat whatever they want, whenever they want, and struggle to gain weight? Why can another person follow a very strict diet and exercise regularly and intensely, and not lose weight? On medical advice, I consumed nothing but OptiFast meal replacement shakes and steamed vegetable - a diet prescribed by a dietician - and didn't lose a single, solitary kilo. For 3 months. How dare someone take one look at me and think they have any idea of how I got this way?

This is a very sensitive issue for me. I have tried very hard to be happy with myself, and most of the time, I am. I make sure I exercise and I eat correct portions of correct foods. I go out of my way to find clothes in my size that I like, rather than just wearing whatever I can find that fits. I wear makeup, and adorn myself with flower fascinators or funky headbands. I buy amazingly expensive lingerie so I can dress up for my husband when the mood takes me. And then to have someone assume that I eat huge portions, or spend my days on the couch with chips and Coke, or tell me that I'm a liar about my personal habits because I'm overweight - is completely demoralizing. And I wonder why I try so hard to be happy with who I am.

Who I am is now, and will always be, a bigger woman than most. But I reckon I need to extra space to house my extra personalities ;)

I guess we tend to aspire more to the skinny end of the spectrum, so maybe that's why it's sometimes seen as ok? But it's really just the flip side of the same coin.
It's interesting about skewed perceptions. I get called skinny sometimes - I'm really not! I'm small though, so maybe that's why, and unless you see me naked you might not notice all the flab.
We all have things we struggle with and for some of us it's weight. I have been fairly lucky in that while I have no problem maintaining or even gaining weight, I have never gained very much and can lose it with a bit of effort. Doesn't mean I can't empathise though. And I'm also aware of the hypocrisy of criticising other people's lifestyles - I eat crap. I eat too much. I don't exercise enough. It just doesn't make me that fat so I can get away with it. It's still bad for me.

Given the scope of the problem, it's clearly a cultural/societal issue and should be addressed as such. It's counterproductive to tell people YOU are doing the wrong thing, when WE are obviously doing the wrong thing.

BMI's are rubbish. My sister was seeing a dietician & he told her if she was at the "right" BMI she would more than likely be dead. He weighed her with scales that do muscle, fat, bones etc etc and the fact is that she has very dense bones which will always put her at a weight that is over her BMI regardless of the fat content of her body.

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DH has always been skinny, probably always will be. When we first met he was quite underweight (Around 70kgs...he's 196cms) and lots of people (myself included) used to comment on it, not realising how much it hurt him.

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My DH cops it all the time too. he is 165cm and just cracks the 60kg. he is forever being mocked for his 'short and skinny' self...oh the jockey comments get a bit boring after awhile lol! it hurts him at times too: at one point he was on sustagen just to try to boost his weight...so didnt work. i *think* he is more comfortable with himself these days (and i reckon he's just perfect!).

i also have faced a lifetime of silly comments regarding my weight. the worst were from family (cause they should know better than to pick on a kid)...especially when they would call me 'lucky legs' (lucky that they dont snap in half and go up my butt :o). nice one from the aunty and her kids...

also would get at the shops when trying on clothes the whole 'skinny minny' thing and even on a NUMBER of occassions the 'anorexic' label...as a POSITIVE thing from a sales assistant :o i was sooo embarrassed and mortified each time. the amount of times that i had to hold back tears as i would try on clothes that never fit and have those comments...to this day i NEVER come out of the changeroom to see how the clothes look in a big mirror...not even for my wedding dress lol!

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I have been constantly taunted about being fat since I was in Primary school. I weighed exactly the same as my best friend in Yr 7, only she was 15 cm taller, and our teacher said I was lying and would weigh at least 10 kilo's more than my friend. I was pushed harder during PE than any of the other kids because I was bigger than them. But looking back, looking at my growth charts and comparing them, I was not at an unhealthy weight

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that is shocking! it totally sucks when they pick on a kid like that. it's bad enough dealing with it as an adult, but man, as a kid and with a teacher in that kind of power relationship???!! sickening :hug:

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also would get at the shops when trying on clothes the whole 'skinny minny' thing and even on a NUMBER of occassions the 'anorexic' label...as a POSITIVE thing from a sales assistant :o i was sooo embarrassed and mortified each time. the amount of times that i had to hold back tears as i would try on clothes that never fit and have those comments...to this day i NEVER come out of the changeroom to see how the clothes look in a big mirror...not even for my wedding dress lol!

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It's awful isn't it! My sister is 17 and I've heard her and her friends use anorexia as a term of endearment. As in 'oh you look so 'ano' in that dress HOT!' Since when did a serious and debilitating mental illness become a compliment?

A friend of mine (C) over the years has shed quite a bit of weight and she looks really really good. Another friend of ours loves to push her buttons by calling her 'bulemic'. Personally I think she is just jealous that C has been diciplined enough to lose the weight by excerising and eating healthy food and therefore has to resort to name calling to make herself feel better. Silly cow!

I agree that you can't tell too much about someone's lifestyle from their appearance. Apart from some obvious superficial things, like that a really large person probably isn't an elite gymnast and a really slender person probably hasn't spent the last summer at sumo camp.

For example, it's not helpful to look at a thinnish person and assume they're healthy. You can get thin people who barely do any exercise, don't eat very well or often, are quite unfit and those around them insist there's no issue. And then there are wonderfully fit and energetic people who are heavier than they need to be.

I guess the fat and skinny thing is just a cultural values thing, as well as a language thing - call someone slender and it doesn't seem so bad. I think it's wise to think before pretty much every comment, I know of short and tall people who get inane or thoughtless comments too.

Allycat I've heard my teenage daughter speak similarly - it's very scary...

BMI is what we have - average weights for height is what we have to help us discover a reasonably healthy range. I think we do have to acknowledge that obesity is a critical health issue in our country. It's not a fallacy - it's real & it causes much distress to many many people as we've heard in this thread from some of them. :hug:

It is about how an individual feels & how their weight impacts on their life & their health. We have more people succumbing to preventable illnesses such as heart disease, cancer & diabetes now than any other time in history. The key does lie with our lifestyles & how those lifestyles impact on our health & wellbeing.

Nobody is saying that skinny is the best. However, being in a healthy weight range for your height is generally more healthy. Thats hard when you battle with your weight. It's really hard as our whole society is set up for an unhealthy weight range - our fast food, our portion sizes, our cookbooks, our cafes/restaruants.

I think this is a multi layered problem & it truly is such an emotive one for many many many of us. :hug: