Now PVC2 has also been found in Rotavirus Vaccine

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April 25th, 2011, 08:48 AM
Yeddi

Now PVC2 has also been found in Rotavirus Vaccine

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WHITEHOUSE STATION, N.J., October 28, 2010 - At today's U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's (CDC's) Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP) meeting, Merck provided an update of its investigation and analysis of porcine circovirus 1 (PCV1) DNA fragments and porcine circovirus 2 (PCV2) DNA fragments in ROTATEQ® (Rotavirus Vaccine, Live, Oral, Pentavalent). In Merck's final test results, infectious PCV was not detected in ROTATEQ or in the starting materials used to make ROTATEQ. In addition, PCV1 DNA fragments were below the limit of detection, and PCV2 DNA fragments -- pieces of PCV2 and not the intact virus itself -- were at low levels in ROTATEQ.

In Merck's investigation, trypsin, the only porcine-derived raw material directly used in the manufacture of ROTATEQ, was confirmed as the source of PCV2 DNA fragments in ROTATEQ. Trypsin is an enzyme used in the manufacturing process for cell growth and rotavirus production.

There is information on PCV DNA in the Description section of the United States Prescribing Information for ROTATEQ. Specifically, the language in the section is as follows: "In the manufacturing process for ROTATEQ, a porcine-derived material is used. DNA from porcine circoviruses (PCV) 1 and 2 has been detected in ROTATEQ. PCV-1 and PCV-2 are not known to cause disease in humans."

According to the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and other regulatory agencies around the world, there is no evidence that PCV1 or PCV2 poses a safety risk in humans, and neither is known to cause infection or illness in humans.

Merck News Item

In other words, they have no intention of removing the vaccine from the market, and are quite happy to continue to vaccinate children with it because it causes no KNOWN (caveat - at this time) disease in humans. How about the KNOWN disease it causes in pigs?

In pigs - Porcine circovirus type 2 (PCV2) is considered by most to be the etiologic agent of postweaning multisystemic wasting syndrome (PMWS) (aka pig AIDS), but it is also found in association with numerous other conditions. These conditions include porcine dermatitis and nephropathy syndrome (PDNS), porcine respiratory disease complex (PRDC) (aka pig pneumonia and asthma), congenital tremors (CT) type AII (aka pig Parkinson's), reproductive failure and enteritis.

Experimental Reproduction of Severe Disease in CD/CD Pigs Concurrently Infected with Type 2 Porcine Circovirus and Porcine Reproductive and Respiratory Syndrome Virus

Awesome! :wall:
April 25th, 2011, 09:32 AM
Bumperstump Cummerbund

This vaccine is all over our radios over here at the moment, they wanna pay people to test it :o
April 25th, 2011, 10:13 AM
Cherished

:wall: It's just insane! Thanks so much for posting.
April 26th, 2011, 07:12 PM
RockinSAHD

:

Merck News Item

In other words, they have no intention of removing the vaccine from the market, and are quite happy to continue to vaccinate children with it because it causes no KNOWN (caveat - at this time) disease in humans. How about the KNOWN disease it causes in pigs?

In pigs - Porcine circovirus type 2 (PCV2) is considered by most to be the etiologic agent of postweaning multisystemic wasting syndrome (PMWS) (aka pig AIDS), but it is also found in association with numerous other conditions. These conditions include porcine dermatitis and nephropathy syndrome (PDNS), porcine respiratory disease complex (PRDC) (aka pig pneumonia and asthma), congenital tremors (CT) type AII (aka pig Parkinson's), reproductive failure and enteritis.

In the interests of being contrary.... ;)

PVC2 has never been known to cause disease in humans and it is commonly found in humans. The news report said that fragments had been found in very small amounts. Fragments, not the whole virus, not the active virus and not even in significant amounts (it takes a reasonable amount of a virus to infect a person).

Not that I'm saying its right, just putting things into perspective.

The rather nasty experiment linked by Yeddi is mostly about PRRSV, and the PVC2 pigs fared only slightly worse than the controls.
April 26th, 2011, 07:54 PM
Yeddi

You're kidding, right?
April 26th, 2011, 07:55 PM
lozzy_mac

I'd like to back up RockinSAHD
only full virus is infectious, fragments of DNA are absolutely meaningless. It's like saying "human flesh was found in the milk" when what you detected was half a skin cell! (actually, half a skin cell has the potential to be far more dangerous to health than a DNA fragment!)
Tests are so sensitive and when reported and interpreted in the wrong way can amount to misinformation.
And of course you wouldn't do it on purpose without research, but the only possible health outcome of having virus fragments in a VACCINE is that you would accidentally boost someone's immunity to that virus!
April 26th, 2011, 08:00 PM
Yeddi

And what research are you basing this on? I'd like to see it. :D
April 26th, 2011, 08:07 PM
RockinSAHD

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You're kidding, right?

No, sorry I'm not. The study you linked showed the pigs only slightly worse off than the controls, these were newborn piglets who were injected with a large amount of the (whole) virus and showed none of the nasty symptoms you quoted and its a pig-disease!

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"In pigs - Porcine circovirus type 2 (PCV2) is considered by most to be the etiologic agent of postweaning multisystemic wasting syndrome (PMWS) (aka pig AIDS), but it is also found in association with numerous other conditions. These conditions include porcine dermatitis and nephropathy syndrome (PDNS), porcine respiratory disease complex (PRDC) (aka pig pneumonia and asthma), congenital tremors (CT) type AII (aka pig Parkinson's), reproductive failure and enteritis."
April 26th, 2011, 08:24 PM
Yeddi

Okay, so apparently a vaccines contaminated with foreign DNA particles from deadly animal viruses is perfectly fine and justifiable? Read that sentence again and tell me that doesn't sound insane.

Regardless, people have the right to know these things, and have ALL their concerns properly investigated and considered, not fobbed off as not being a problem. There would be a lot of people out there that would think this is a problem. I am not interested in making this another Anti/Pro vaccine argument thread, or delving into excuses for this inexcusable contamination.
April 26th, 2011, 08:31 PM
turtleschell

Imagine how the Muslim families feel about having their child exposed to a pig virus. Repulsed. Violated. Permanently unclean.
April 26th, 2011, 08:33 PM
Yeddi

Jewish communities wouldn't be fans either.
April 26th, 2011, 08:36 PM
RockinSAHD

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Okay, so apparently a vaccines contaminated with foreign DNA particles from deadly animal viruses is perfectly fine and justifiable? Read that sentence again and tell me that doesn't sound insane.

Well, try this one: Vaccine contaminated with very small amounts of DNA fragments from a benign virus that infects only pigs.... Justifiable, no, but cause for further testing and research.
April 26th, 2011, 08:46 PM
RockinSAHD

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Imagine how the Muslim families feel about having their child exposed to a pig virus. Repulsed. Violated. Permanently unclean.

That's actually a really interesting though. I wonder what Mohammed would've said about viruses? They aren't pig products but independent living organisms but it's interesting.

What about a fragment of pig DNA in some GE wheat? I'm sure that would give The Prophet reason to ponder.
April 26th, 2011, 08:52 PM
Yeddi

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Justifiable, no, but cause for further testing and research.

...Research that they are very unlikely to do because they've already claimed it as safe, and unless something makes them (like people not taking it up, or suddenly people start getting very sick and they can't somehow find a way to refute it as just being just coincidence) they most probably wont ever do any.

Have you ever watched Fight Club?

:

A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.

Similar sentiment really...
April 26th, 2011, 08:59 PM
mummajj

ooohh i love a Yeddi vs RSAHD thread. i learn heaps. :) u guys could seriously talk for hours over a cuppa. (although the cuppa might go cold);)
April 26th, 2011, 09:11 PM
Yeddi

*Giggle* I actually think one of us would end up wearing the coffee. :ROFL:

TBH on other topics, we'd most probably get along really well, but on this topic, we will always be likely to butt heads.
April 26th, 2011, 09:16 PM
~Stoked~

I'd like to be a fly on the wall during this coffee date! Hehe!
April 26th, 2011, 09:25 PM
mummajj

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I'd like to be a fly on the wall during this coffee date! Hehe!

i will stand next to you but we will need a shield of some sort to repel the china....:rofl:

seriously though, its great that u guys are on opposite end of the spectrum. theres no one person rampaging through the forum with a particular opinion on a topic, u meet halfway and are respectful to each other. and you are both giving us plenty to think about :) thanks.
April 26th, 2011, 09:26 PM
LizLemon

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seriously though, its great that u guys are on opposite end of the spectrum. theres no one person rampaging through the forum with a particular opinion on a topic, u meet halfway and are respectful to each other. and you are both giving us plenty to think about :) thanks.

Agreed (and subbing)!
April 26th, 2011, 09:27 PM
RockinSAHD

LOL!! I would definitely end up with coffee on my head! Every time!

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...Research that they are very unlikely to do because they've already claimed it as safe, and unless something makes them (like people not taking it up, or suddenly people start getting very sick and they can't somehow find a way to refute it as just being just coincidence) they most probably wont ever do any.

Sort of. To put things in perspective, there are virus fragments everywhere, through everything we do every day, covering us, inside our bodies, everywhere. There are probably billions of kinds of living viruses and bacteria that we've not named yet because they're not important to us and they live on and around us (and sometimes inside our bodies). We only isolate them and test for them when they become important for us because we need them or because they hurt us. There is just no way that we could catalogue them all and really no reason to unless they help us or make us sick.
April 26th, 2011, 09:50 PM
Yeddi

Hmm... that is a point, and this vaccines does have one saving grace is that it is oral. If it was injected I think that would be a differently kettle of fish. At least this one has to be processed by the gut. Then again, it raises questions regarding gut flora, and what effect it might have if there is a yeast imbalance, as yeast overgrowth can effect the ability to envelope bacteria and viruses. There also has been recent studies in Japan and China that show that DNA particles can fuse together with the membranes of our body cell membranes, continuously destroying cells once introduced into the body. Once they interact with the body’s cellular structure, they cannot be removed.

Tell me Rockin, what difference would it make to come into contact with virus particles through normal environmental means verses being exposed to it via vaccine with adjuvants? Yes, that is a loaded question...
April 26th, 2011, 09:58 PM
RockinSAHD

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There also has been recent studies in Japan and China that show that DNA particles can fuse together with the membranes of our body cell membranes, continuously destroying cells once introduced into the body. Once they interact with the body’s cellular structure, they cannot be removed.
Tell me Rockin, what difference would it make to come into contact with virus particles through normal environmental means verses being exposed to it via vaccine with adjuvants? Yes, that is a loaded question...

Hmmm, there are DNA particles all through our bodies, our own DNA and foregin DNA. I'm sure the tiny amount from a vaccine would be mopped up pretty fast and I didn't know that our own DNA could go rouge and become dangerous, but I learn new things every day.

Are you going to tell me what would happen with vaccine+adjuvant? Or just leave me hanging on?
April 27th, 2011, 08:13 AM
Yeddi

Oh, no no no. We aren't going down this line again, where I provide evidence to back up what I say, and you sit there trying to pick holes in it - trying to discredit it - all the while never really providing any counter-evidence of your own to actually back up your claims. To be honest, you've already started, only picking apart the pig study while never showing any studies that show that PCV2 have been found in humans (or even virus particles - so we can address people's concerns by providing details, not one sentence write offs) and are not a problem - at the moment all we've got is your word on it. Surely there are studies/medical books which show this and that you have access to that you can provide us with.

I'm giving you the opportunity the actually participate in a discussion by providing credible information to discredit information you don't agree with.
April 27th, 2011, 08:27 AM
Catastrophic

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ooohh i love a Yeddi vs RSAHD thread. i learn heaps. :) u guys could seriously talk for hours over a cuppa. (although the cuppa might go cold);)

:

I'd like to be a fly on the wall during this coffee date! Hehe!

:

Agreed (and subbing)!

Mee too! Going to grap a coffee an sit back and watch :-)
April 27th, 2011, 08:43 AM
Yeddi

This one goes with the pig study.

Porcine Circovirus type 2 (PCV2) causes apoptosis in experimentally inoculated BALB/c mice

This one that shows the whole virus isn't needed to cause damage

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15956572

Edit:
And I just found this one - which was absolutely shocking to me and has now given me a huge conflict of bias because it's become very emotive for me now. My father died from BOOP, as a pre-teen I slowly watched him die of hypoxia - going slightly mad - over three years. We were told it was a rare disease - but apparently it's not so rare in pigs infected with PCV2 which is a causation for the disease - why the hell would I ever risk sticking particles of this disease in my children just to stop them getting gastro, an illness neither has ever had despite not being vaccinated for it.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20976305
April 27th, 2011, 12:27 PM
RockinSAHD

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This one goes with the pig study.
Porcine Circovirus type 2 (PCV2) causes apoptosis in experimentally inoculated BALB/c mice
This one that shows the whole virus isn't needed to cause damage
Characterization of a previously unidentified vira... [J Virol. 2005] - PubMed result

Edit:
And I just found this one - which was absolutely shocking to me and has now given me a huge conflict of bias because it's become very emotive for me now. My father died from BOOP, as a pre-teen I slowly watched him die of hypoxia - going slightly mad - over three years. We were told it was a rare disease - but apparently it's not so rare in pigs infected with PCV2 which is a causation for the disease - why the hell would I ever risk sticking particles of this disease in my children just to stop them getting gastro, an illness neither has ever had despite not being vaccinated for it.
Bronchiolitis obliterans organizing pneumonia in S... [J Biomed Biotechnol. 2011] - PubMed result

Honestly, you keep me so busy looking at the studies your posting. I'll look into PCV2 in humans but I may have been wrong after all, this is a study that tried to infect human cells with PCV2 (PCV1 and a few other related viruses) but showed that the viruses weren't able to replicate using human cells as hosts (so the virus will just die if it gets into a human cell).
http://www.sochinf.cl/sitio/template...lares_2004.pdf

The first of your references above about mice says the same thing, the virus invaded the mice cells and the cells died (which is a good thing for mice or humans but not for the virus). The second study you've misunderstood. Viruses cannot infect a host if they aren't intact, no fragment or even intact DNA or RNA will get into a cell to invade it without the virus coat (caspid), take a look at the wiki, especially the life-cycle:
Virus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thats an awful story about your father, I'm really sorry to hear that.
BOOP (or COP as it's called these days) is an inflammatory disease, often part of rheumatoid arthritis or a chronic inflammatory disease. It can be triggered by a virus, but it can be triggered by any virus (very unlikely by PCV2 in humans) since the cause of the disease is the bodies own reaction. Blaming a virus is fair (the virus is causal) but any virus could trigger the response and avoiding exposure to any virus is 100% impossible unless you live in a bubble.
I've seen people die the way your father did, I can imagine how awful it was for you. I'm sorry.