Hard to respond (small vent)

I'm just finding it hard to compose diplomatic responses to posts about controlled crying. Of course it's up to each person how they choose to parent, but I can't help thinking "those poor babies!". I feel bad not saying anything, yet have no idea how to say something without it being emotional or perhaps offensive. It really pulls at my heartstrings to think of those crying babies :( And the fact that it's mentioned that they have to do the cc again at the next developmental stage should be telling them that it's not the baby manipulating them.. its the baby NEEDING them! :( :(

I can totally understand the aspect of tiredness, and of course having more than 1 child changes things dramatically. I'd be struggling too if DH didn't get up and settle Tallon now and then. But I don't think I could ever resort to just letting him cry.. especially when I've read that cc can actually make them cry more in the long run!

Every night when I'm putting Tallon to bed I tell him that mummy & daddy are just next door and he just needs to call out if he needs us, otherwise I'll see him in the morning when the sun shines through his window. Most of the time these days, he waits for the sunshine! LOL. Some nights he needs cuddles and some bb early in the morning.. but that's OK :) He's always had a reason for his cries, I don't believe he's smart enough yet to be squeezing out crocodile tears... heck.. he's only just worked out how to roll! LOL.

Anyway.. just felt I had to post something somewhere.. I hope this was an ok place to post it.. I figure here it shouldn't offend anyone.. coz if they're not into gentle methods they won't come here anyway!

Phew.. I feel better now.

I understand how you feel. It is even harder in person. I have one friend who after sleep school lets her baby cry to sleep and it is more than just a wind down cry. It is so horrible to hear, I tend to keep my mouth shut though, as I don't like it when I get hammered for co-sleeping. Anyway DH isn't so diplomatic and cracked at the DH of this friend (they are friends themselves).

Anyway, I tend to keep quiet myself, unless of course they choose to post in the gentle section.

Ivana, why do you feel the need to respond to those threads at all? I'm with you, I can't imagine my baby (or anyone's baby) just lying there crying their hearts out, but I do accept that different people have different ways of parenting and one can't change other people's minds about what is best.

Just remember, babies are wonderfully resilient little creatures, it actually takes a lot of bad parenting (and I am not talking about cc or other parenting differences here, I mean outright neglectful parenting) to create long term behavioural and emotional problems. Us humans are pretty robust. So don't worry about stuff like that, just parent the way you think you should :)

I think the main thing that we all need to remember here that just as little babies are all individual, unique and special, so are their parents. We all have different ways of approaching parenting and I personally like to think that we all make informed choices and always put our little ones first - I am confident that everyone here at BB (whether they practice CC or comforted sleeping) has their child's BEST interests at heart and have approached their parenting with the importance and respect that it deserves and have investigated all the options available to them before deciding on what is best for them.

It's ok to not necessarily agree with someone's parenting style - parenting isn't all black and white, so what one family does can be completely different to the next, whilst both still having a happy and loving environment.

In terms of BB, people who adopt gentle parenting have the gentle parenting forums where they can discuss things, but those who adopt other methods have the other forums to post in and need support/advice/understanding just like everybody else does IYKWIM?

This post isn't designed to offend those who do controlled crying or those who practice comforted sleeping, it's more to just say that we need to practice tolerance and patience for each other and respect that we all make different choices for different reasons......

Perhaps just realize that everyone has an opinion and if you can't say something nice, don't bother responding to those posts at all. There is never going to be two people who agree about all the same issues when it comes to parenting. Just know, people who use cc are not any less educated or loving and it may often work wonders for the health and happiness of their babies, and their family. That is not to say that it is right for you...but if the idea upsets you, then just don't read the posts.

Ivana - I often have a different point of view to what others discuss in the forums. However, each family has to find the best way to manage their own little bundle of joy and their discussion allow me to view from the other side. I can then take what is beneficial to me and leave what is not. If something is a REALLY big trigger for something that I just cannot tolerate, then I just don't look.

Don't feel the need to respond. A different viewpoint is not always a bad thing. Just different.

I tell Indah simila Ivana,
that I am just out in the lounge or heading off to bed myself & that DH & I both love her & so does maddy & if she needs us just call out...

But in saying that, I also know Indah wakes in the middle of the night & whinges for about 3 mins, I used to get up each & every time, but by the time I was at her dopor she'd have gotten comfy & was falling back to sleep, or I'd open the door frighten her & she'd be wide awake screaming...
So in the end I let her whinge, whine almost calling out but not crying, I go to the toilet have a glass of water & then head toward her room, almost always she is quiet again & asleep til the morning, it's usually only the creaking on the floorboards that do wake her up anyways...
She knows we are there & will happily resettle but I have worked out going in wakes her up...


You will come across various ways of parenting until the day you leave Earth... there is no right or wrong way, just your way & their way....

Eeep :o Didn't mean for it to sound like I want to push my views.. I know too well what its like to be on the receiving end of it. I guess I have an emotional response and I just wanna throw every article I've ever read at them! LOL. But I never would. I totally respect that people make their decisions out of love for their babies and the rest of the family too. It's just the way I feel I guess when I see it or hear it.

I read somewhere that a baby's cry is designed to invoke a physical response from their carer.. unfortunately now.. any baby's cry invokes a response in me. It's awful.. if I hear a baby crying in the shopping centre I just want to run and help! I don't necessarily think anything bad of the parents.. it just affects me. So even when I THINK of babies being left to cry, my tummy does a flip.

Anyway.. sorry if I sounded like I want to push my views on people :(

btw Tracey - Tallon's the same, half whines and half talks to himself and falls back to sleep. I lie there awake wondering if its safe to go back to sleep. hehe.

As for not reading the threads.. yeah I guess.. but I can't help myself! hehe.

Gosh.. I'm stewing over this now :( My original post really was just a vent, and I posted it here in the gentle forum because i DIDN'T want it seen as pushing my point of view.

I think I just feel frustrated when I can't find the words to make a reply in such a way that it's supportive and possibly informative at the same time, because if it's me talking about what I've read in various articles, it would be seen as me pushing my point of view, yet if those articles themselves were posted, it's not taken that way. Does that make sense? That's why I said I find it hard to respond.

Poor misunderstood little me. LOL. I shall crawl back under my rock now and not vent any more for fear of having to explain myself!

Thanks Fletch. I've been a bit of an over-worked, over-emotional wreck the last few days, and I've been worried it's reflecting in my posts.

OMG.. look at Zane standing up like a big boy!

EEEW, I dont want to think about what's up your butt!

Ivana, I dont think yopur post was at all pushing your opinion, I guess as you wrote you read other posts & dont know how to respond to be supportive but offer another angle... I guess everyone whom replied just wanted to do similar in replying & supporting etc...
Dont take anything to heart! Sometimes I have typed up a response only to read it back to myself & think... Ooops too harsh & then deleted it & not re read that particular post!!!

We all have days like that! Now shrug it off & move on!

Ivana don't worry *hugs* It is hard for someone who has made a parenting decision to read what other's say and want to jump up & down & say "NO! Don't do it!!". I do it frequently:throw_computer: , I think coming here & having a vent with other gentle parents is a fantastic way of getting that frustration out, but know that anyone can read these forums as well and get just as upset ;).

Nothing you wrote in your first post is taken as getting hard on that parenting choice. I think maybe others are just reminding you that it is their choice to do that as well.

I personally can't encourage anyone to CC, having been someone who has tried almost every sleep technique out there & still has a 2 year old that can be up for hours in the middle of the night & can still be undeniably frustrated over sleep issues. We tried CC and it caused much more grief than help so we stopped it. We did learn a few things about Matilda in that time (like she sleeps better without us in the room or with our distractions) but it doesn't mean we would ever think about leaving her to cry. We also say to her every sleep, "we love you Matilda, hope you have a good rest & if you need us, just let us know, we will be just outside"

Ivana_baby - the thing is, when people post, you can't see their faces...if people don't add a " :) " things can be taken the wrong way...just like when people correspond via text messaging, etc. It's fun and informative to post, but not the real world, (and I don't want that to be taken the wrong way! :) ) haha. I figure, what's the point in being upset over a computer that you can choose to turn on or off, over a forum that your not obligated to enter....so, I try and shrug things off now. I understand what your saying about wanting to give information from articles you read. Perhaps post them in a section of their own, and people can choose to read them if they wish. People who use cc have looked into the pros and cons, and most people who use cc do it properly and follow instinct, love their children to bits and want all the best for them, so it may come across as a bit 'soap box' like to try and sway ones viewpoint, when they have already done all the reading, and are looking for support in the decision they have made. As well as being very hard, as you know, parenting is also the most touchy subject. I try and take a very nautral point of view (have to for my chosen career path, anyway), as having a very strong view on someones parenting style, is sort of like having a strong view of their religion or political views....it's much too personal...and yes, at the end of the day, cc families are just as loving, happy and stable as families who don't use cc. We meet people every day in the flesh...whether it be family, friends, or people in the supermarket, who we chat to, admire as people, without judging, and every one of them has a different viewpoint on all sorts of things in life, but they are all still good people, and we respect their choices (and, most often, don't even know what their opinions on many things are). I admire you for not pushing your strong viewpoint to those who have a different viewpoint, of trying to support all ways of looking at things...there are many who would go into a post and abuse. I feel that maybe (and I may be wrong) you think that people who use cc need all those articles, that they have an ignorance about them. However, I think most people do a lot of research, ask their child health nurse, G.P, or the like about things, and, most of all, follow instinct to achieve what is best for their particular child. We can never walk in anothers shoes (unless we participate in wife-swap!), so it's just bad for our own health to worry about other peoples lives. If they are happy and loved, there is no point shortening your life by worrying about it. :)

Yeah... I guess its hard not to assume that people are only giving it a go on the advice of "old school" views about babies "learning" to sleep etc. It doesn't help that mchn's push for controlled crying, and no doubt many gp's, and many of our mothers!

I guess I also can't understand that if someone HAS done research of their own, that they would still opt to use it, so I guess that's where my assumptions that they haven't read all there is to read come in, and I know assuming is a very bad thing! hehe.

Anyway.. it's not so much about me judging anyone, it's more that I'm bubbling forth with what I'm learning and reading about.. and I guess it comes across the wrong way.

Anyway, I feel better.. I'm not stewing anymore! hehe. Felt good to get it out tho, coz I do struggle sometimes with what I read here.

I know we shouldn't make judgements, but I can't help it... I tend to look at why people are doing certain things. If they are doing CC bc they just can't cope and it's either that or have a total nervous breakdown, well good on them. But it really gets on my nerves when people suggest that CC is somehow good for little babies, or that responding to crying is "bad". I bet that sooner or later there wil be proof coming out that CC is harmful.

WRT to responses to posts, I generally don't bother unless I can think of something constructive to suggest. If someone has decided to use a certain technique, they are unlikely to change their mind bc I don't like the idea. So the only effect would be to make the person feel upset or annoyed. Besides, I don't really have any right to comment as I wouldn't know the full details of that person's situation.

Also good to remember is that cc isn't something that is done day in-day out. For a lot of babies, it simply doesn't work, and it's just not right for them. There are babies though, who, after a couple of nights with cc, end up having a much better sleep patern, wake up happy babies, and it's only those couple of nights where they cry at all. Also, when using cc properly, one is not leaving their baby to just cry...it's no different then when your on the toilet and can't get to your baby straight away, or when you take a while to wake to your babies cries, you are still going in regularly and comforting your baby. If people try cc in any other way, it isn't cc, it's neglect, yes....but that isn't cc and is not the norme....so I think it's important to have a clear understanding of what parents mean when they say "we've tried cc". Most often, it's simply the same sort of thing as when , as some of the ladies who have posted here have talked about, you don't go in to your baby immediatly, so that they have a chance to self-settle (because, I agree, a lot of the time, if you check on them constantly, they end up crying more and more and getting distressed because they're really tired and just want to sleep). Maybe I have a different notion of what cc should be, but I don't believe if done correctly, that it is a forceful technique or one that leaves the baby crying with fear or anthing terrible like that. I think probably a lot of people doing research into cc aren't really researching cc, but variations on it, you know? So, it'll always be hard to get a clear idea of the outcomes of cc....if it is studying babies who have just been left to cry for chunks of time, of course the outcomes are going to be bad....but I don't believe that is cc.....where is the control in that? Anyway, I support all loving parents, however they go about things. :)

I re-read the sticky on controlled crying in this forum, and it mentioned not using controlled crying until the baby is at an age where it understands that the parent will come back. I also read on the ABA website that a baby doesn't have "object permanence" until at least 8 months old.. ie as far as a baby younger than that is concerned, it's been put down and forgotten. It's not until they're older that they grasp the concept that the carer will return. That's the part that really snapped me out of any controlled crying ideas that have crept into my head. So I'm mainly against it being used with young babies. I won't consider it an option until my baby is at least a toddler, THEN he'll have the ability to "learn" to sleep, knowing that I am just in the next room if he needs me.

I completely agree with you....one should never try cc on a tiny baby, they just have no concept, and it's very important to go to them ASAP so that they know to trust you and learn that you love and are there for them. They should be near a year old at least, they should be able to move about the house and their cot, freely, and they should have a grasp of basic words. Absolutely :)

Ummmmm ok so I think it may have been me who opened up the CC can of worms. Sorry if I upset or offended everyone. I don't really feel the need to explain myself but I will.....I'm trying CC because I have another baby due in Sept and an 11 month old. We've been co- sleeping pretty much for the last few months, but now if I am not in bed then DD will wake up. Obviously it's not overly practicle for me to go to bed at 7.30pm each night and if I have to go to the loo then i have to make it quick! Anyway i think (touch wood) that night times back in her cot aren't going to be too stressful, but day sleeps are another matter - she will only sleep being held or in her pram/car seat. How could i possibly continue that with a newborn? Bow all those probs are probably my 'fault' and prior to this I have always been keen on gentle parenting ideologies. I have previously posted a thread in this section too. i love co sleeping but it's just not prasctical to continue which is why I am trying CC. It's nor easy, I hate it in fact, but i am prepared to give it a go for the long term benefit of DD - she will still need to sleep at some stage when her brother/sister is here.

Anyway i guess i needn't of bothered posting that stuff, but Ivana and others, I totally respect your thoughts and if you can gentle parent forever then brilliant. It just doesn't always work. i love my daughter with every ounce of my body and have researched the pros and cons enormously. It's not a lighthearted decision to try this method, believe me. I guess as everyone has said we just need to respect each others choices and realise that different things work for different babies and families.

Anyway I'm not really sure what I am trying to say, just that I hope I didn't upset anyone too much and let's just respect different choices and learn together. The one thing that being a mum has made me realise is that there are so many different ways to do things and babies don't read the books before they come out. The number of choices and responsibility of a parent is enormous, and I guess if we all agreed on everything our children would all be the same and would all grow up the same - now wouldn't that be boring!

Soph the thing is that everyone can spout their opinion on the topic but only you are living through your particular circumstances. I am happy that so far my DS has not really cried or fussed much at all so I've never even had to consider letting him cry for a bit before going to him. Who knows what I'd be doing if he was a constantly crying/fussing bub? Don't worry, no one (well me for one) is judging you in the slightest and you don't have to defend your parenting to anyone :hug:

Soph - you didn't upset me at all.. and I hope my post didnt upset you either. Like I've said I find myself having an emotional response to the thought of cc.. and I felt that I had to post something somewhere.. and I posted here in the hopes it wasn't necessarily associated with your post, and basically to have a vent.

When I read your post I guess my initial thought was I wanted to say something encouraging, but without agreeing to cc if you know what I mean. And for the life of me I couldn't.. because I thought whatever I write is going to look like I'm attacking your decision, and that's not what I ever want to do to anyone. So I came and vented that I find it hard to compose reponses that are supportive as well as perhaps gently encouraging someone to look at alternative methods?

Anyway.. I really hope I didn't upset anyone with what I wrote. Of course, my bub is only 4 months old.. and he's my only one.. so I haven't yet faced your situation (altho ttc'ing next year.. so if he's got sleep probs.. who knows how I'll tackle it!)

I hope you can find something that works for you Soph.

I just posted this in the circumcision thread but it seemed appropriate for both LOL:

I think it's great that we have some good discussion going on, just a friendly reminder though to be careful of the words we use. I know it's a powerful and emotive thing; but we must focus on the reason why we don't do it, and not what we think of those who do it.

LOL at the circumcision Kelly. Lots of emotive topics out there aren't there? But we can't always be tooo polite.. be a bit boring huh ;)

:grouphug: Ah yes all good, no hard feelings whatsoever Ivana and thank you for having the courage to express your point of view in such a diplomatic way.

Fletch my sweetie you are such a gem! You've made me cry again though 'cos you are just too nice. LOL damn pg hormones!!!!!

See, this is perfect, everyone loving everyone! :D

This is only part of the reason why I love BB!

Think I might get it tattooed on my tummy!!!

Im just back from a week at sleep school!!! Yep, did some Cc, but nothing I hadn't done at home. I still have a bub that is so alert and doesn't want to sleep much. Therefore the only choice I have is to let her cry at night (I go in and out) but after 2 hours I just drift off!! She is one of the most placid happy babies they'd seen, and also the most stubborn!!
Each to their own I say. I did cc with number one for 1.5 hours and that was IT, shewas a perfect sleeper after that (that was at 8 months, she's now 8 years). She hasn't as yet had any issues with teh cc!! (what, you mean she can't remember).
anyway, I totally understand that some people choose not to go the cc way,. Like I choose not to feed my child any junk food.I believe in a very natural diet. HOwever I would never judge someone who gives their kids anything that i dont.
Immunisation is the same circumcision,smoking as well. some would die rather than do those, others wouldn't even dream of not doing them. Each to their own and I think the biggest mistake is thinking that because people choose something different from one's opinion, it does not mean they love their children less. I would argue I love my children more than anyone loves theirs...im sure we all would.
And just one thing, my MIL has a 9 year old. She hates cc, and would never do it on her kids, however the CRAP she feeds her daughter makes my mind boggle, I cannot comprehend it. Her daughter is always constipated etc,to me its extremely careless.

Maybe one day they'll do studies and find that all criminals were left to cry!!!!

or that they were fed junkfood as young children ;) hehehe

or both! :p

ivana regarding your original post, i do not go into forums that are not listed as alternative or 'gentle' because reading journeys about using cc ing upsets me and i don't agree with doing it so i do not post in those areas. for my family it would be very detromental to all of our mental health to 'let' our baby cry.

liana regarding your comment
it's no different then when your on the toilet and can't get to your baby straight away, or when you take a while to wake to your babies cries, you are still going in regularly and comforting your baby. If people try cc in any other way, it isn't cc, it's neglect, yes....but that isn't cc and is not the norme..."

i'm not sure i understand what you are saying here (not wanting to sound rude or disrespectful, i really want to know what you meant). our little fella, oscar (and his older brothers) is in our sling alot of the time and we co-sleep he is actually with me all the time so i notice when he starts to wiggle or make little noices to say he is going to get upset and therefore doesn't start to cry because i can attend to his needs straight away. Yes this means having him in the sling when i am on the toilet or within arms reach now he is older:)

having had babys who sleep well and 1 that woke to be breastfed every 2 hours throughout the night until he was a preschooler, i just go with the flow, don't stress about 'training' them to sleep and just have them with me the whole time. i appreciate that bb has a gentle forum where i can post about my style of parenting and not be poo pooed about that 'rod for my back' and flooded with notions that cc is the only way to parent a child. having older children i know that this baby hood/toddler hood will be gone in a blink of an eye and they will be weaned, in their own rooms and very independant.

good luck to all the mummas and bubbas
beckles