I think its time for some serious help

With DD1.

We're pretty much at the end of our rope with her sleeping issues. She'll take an hour to get to sleep at night (with DH sitting there with her) and then she'll be up again in the middle of the night (usually around 1.30am) and then won't go back to sleep for hours. Last night it was 1.30 - 4am. This is killing DH, makes him so tired that he finds it hard to function at work, not to mention isn't very good on his moods and patience. Plus, it makes him incredibly dopey around the house, and that in turn affects me...lol

I'm thinking of calling Walker House here in Launceston and getting some sleep help. I'm worried about what they will put us through though, and if they will blame us in some way for our crap parenting and handling of the issue.

Its been bad since we moved to tassie, and I'm not blaming the move cos we've been here 2 years and it still hasn't improved. I remember posting a thread when pregnant with DD2 - she's now 20 months old and its getting worse, not better.

We used to give her a bottle of milk and she would put herself to sleep. Now she is 3 and it doesn't work. She just stays awake.

We would leave her, but she cries and screams for DH and wakes up the others. So DH has no choice but to stay in there with her.

This morning he asked if we could drug her. I don't want to have to do that, but I can see this is slowly destroying DH, and it can't be good for her either. She's 3 and she probably gets about 7 hours sleep in a 24 hour period. Thats not enough.

*sigh*

:hug:

Dd is the same. The only thing that settles her in the night is coming into our bed. So I sleep between two babies and dh has a single in our room.

Do whatever maximizes sleep for all.

Could dh just camp out on the floor of her room? It might mean she at least stays asleep longer.

Good luck

He usually sleeps in her bed, but she still doesn't fall asleep. Plus it's a double bed, he is 6 foot 7 and doesn't fit in it lol

I might suggest that he sleeps with the girls in our bed and I take the baby into the double bed

We went through a similar patch recently. She wouldn't settle for DH at all, wouldn't sleep in our bed. The only thing that she would accept was me sitting on the bed and I couldn't be doing that all night but she screamed when I tried to leave the room (and would continue to scream for several hours). We ended up doing the phenergan thing - recommended by the health nurse - for 5 nights. It seems to have broken the cycle and atm all is going well, she is still waking 2-3 times at night but now I can go in, put her back in bed with a hug and kiss and walk out and she will go back to sleep.

Both the leaving her to cry and the drugging was a gentle parenting fail, but we seem to be in a more manageable position atm. Hopefully it lasts!

DH has been known to sleep on DD's bed, while she lies there watching him. One day I had to go out and he was trying to settle her.. I heard his snores, snuck in to wake him up to look after DS and DD is lying there wide awake :lol:

"Hi mummy, daddy fell asleep! Poor daddy, he's so tired!" :rofl:

Anyway... back to your post... Do you think some serious help would work? Could somoene come to you? I don't know how you'd go if you had to go to a residential place, with your three other juniors.

You could always talk to them first, see what sort of vibe you get? If they will work with you, within your parenting techniques, or if they are going to foist their opinions upon you? ITMS?

You could call that place and find out what the programme is. I don't think they'll criticise your parenting. That wouldn't be a good foot to start on. You would want to make sure that their methods sit comfortably with you and DH and the way you parent. No good if the tell you to lock her in her room or drug her or something, iykwim.

The lack of sleep must be very hard on your DH, and you too. My DS1 has just started to have massive sleeps again - about 11-13 hours per day, so she must be exhausted too.

I know she's still only little, but what are her reasoning skills like? Have you had a chat to her? I know my DS is afraid of the dark, and cats. I have no idea why. Also a friend had to take the dinosaur that lived in our toilet home with him in the boot of his car one day. Two grown men wrestling an imaginary dinosaur into a car :).

I can't believe you've been in Tassie for 2 years! Time flies!

I'd be calling every sleep help place in the country lol.

no, but seriously, are there any sleep schools that have approaches that are more in style with your parenting choices? even private at-home organisations...i'm thinking along the lines of Pinky McKay services). i know that there are a few around the place in each state. could be worth a shot!

big :hug:

DD will not go to sleep in her bad at night (she will for day sleep - go figure!!) so she falls asleep on the couch and then we move her, she usually wakes at 4am and we just do the same process or if she gets upset she gets in our bed usually till 8am or 9am.
Will she drop off on the couch? Not solving the problems but maybe making it easier? Dh some times sleeps on a mattress on het floor but he is a bad snorer and he was waking her up!
I hope it gets better Hun. Can you try the rappid return? Put to bed, stay for 5 then leave, DD Gets up and then repeat? Takes a few times on the first night but they seem to learn fast that they are just going back to bed do they may as well stay!
Xo

Why does he stay with her? Does she cry? As you know we are in a caravan so when we go to my mums house DS isn't keen on being alone in the room. So we have a deal that I will stay for five mins then go and will check on him again in 5 mins, stay for 5 etc. I stick to my word so he knows I am coming back and it helps if he can hear us in the living room. He usually goes to sleep within 1-2 cycles of that. I don't personally think kids should be left to cry but I would think that your DD is old enough to be able to reason with. Unlike a baby where they don't understand if you say you will be back, just that you are gone. DS does still wake in the night sometimes although usually they are night terror type events where we can't wake him up or get him back to sleep - he just cries and cries. So awful although we do wear ear muffs as I am sure I have hearing damage from how loud he can cry. If setting down some clear consistent rules doesn't seem to help perhaps look into what she is eating or doing late in the day. Perhaps unknowingly she is getting stimulated by something and it is interfering with her ability to get to sleep. DS is stimulated by us being in the room which is why we always do the 5 mins then leave. Hope it gets better for you soon. It isn't a bad thing to seek some professional help and they can't make you do anything that you don't want to do. :hug:

Artechim - we are considering drugging her for a few nights to get her body back into the proper sleep cycle. of course, there is the guilt that goes along with it because she's still so young and we're drugging her.. lol

OP - I dunno how it works, I guess they could come to me, I know walker house do make house visits if necessary - but then they will find out how shocking the others sleep as well and find out that DS still needs us to sit next to him until he falls asleep, and then sees him crawl into our bed around midnight as well.. LOL

Lenny - I can't believe I've been here two years either! Definitely doesn't feel like it, but I've had two babies down here so it must be true..lol Her reasoning skills are ok I think, she's a pretty good talker for her age, and I think she understands a lot, but can't really tell us why she doesn't want to go to sleep - she just doesn't - or can't.

Cassius - I dunno, I've never had to look into it before, we just put up with it. Put up with DS needing someone there beside him to fall asleep, put up with her issues, put up with DD2 waking at all hours and coming into our bed, along with DS AND now DD3 sleeps in our bed. Seriously, its like musical beds here every night, never know who I'm going to wake up with.. lol

Jakabella - haven't heard of the rapid return, we can try it. She doesn't get out of bed though, just screams out for daddy.. and because she shares a bed with DD2, wakes her up and then DH has to get both of them back to sleep. Sometimes she comes into our room crying, and then wakes DD3 up too, and then I have to try and get her back to sleep while DH is dealing with DD1.

Too many kids all with sleep issues I think!! Should have stopped after DS :rolleyes: - cos since they all have issues, I guess it IS our parenting that is causing it.

ETA - Krys - she falls asleep by herself for her day naps. She is quite happy to go into aricyn's bed and fall asleep on her own, I check on her like half an hour later, and she's usually still awake, then I don't bother checking again (or get distracted by the other kids) and I think she falls asleep eventually, but we can't do it of a night time cos they share a bed, and from previous trials - if DD2 is asleep and DD1 is left in the room with her awake, she WILL wake DD2 up, pokes her or talks to her until she wakes. Then the whole cycle starts again with the two of them awake.

I think ultimately we need another room here. Cos then DD1 could have a room to herself and put herself to sleep or talk herself to sleep or something.. lol

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Too many kids all with sleep issues I think!! Should have stopped after DS :rolleyes: - cos since they all have issues, I guess it IS our parenting that is causing it.

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Stop that!!!!!! Silliest thing I ever heard :hug:

Have you tried talking to the child health nurse about it? See what they think of the drugging idea? I hate the word "drugging"... but anyway.

Would you be prepared to take her to a residential place? Just the two of you? Could that work with the others? Prob not...

How long til you move back to Brissy? Can you get a house up there with more BRs? Sounds like it really might help...

MNB, my two both have all the sleep issues possible. Just as soon as one thing clears up, the next problem appears.

Just this morning DH was raving about how good night time has been in the last week - with DS only waking 1-2 times each night and DD 2-3 times, but easy resettles. Except for the other night when DS was wide awake at 2am and got up for the day, followed by DD at 4am.

Crap sleepers, or crap parenting we will never know. I just hope like hell that they outgrow it eventually!!

Don't feel too bad if you do go the drug route - it is only for a short time and can make a world of difference long term if she starts getting the sleep she needs xx

You could try the rapid return with her awake and in bed? Stay for 5 then tuck in and say good night and I'll check on you in 5, unless of course she is distraught then return earlier. On the second or third return you tuck in and sit on the end of the bed but don't engage with them
- so no stimulation and then leave and return after 5 mins..I used to watch a series on tv about sleep issues and this was the main routine that worked..it works here on most occasions..
I know sometimes DD grizzles in bed but no cries so we check her but font stay. If she is screaming and upset then I try to settle in bed but usually get her up and settled and start again.
I'm sorry I'm not much more help xo

It's not parenting. It's genetic. Passed down on the paternal line.

Could you try letting her have her own room, and putting DS and DD2 in together?

I

I have a program called Sleep Sense, if you want a copy. My gf gave it to me but I never used it. gf says iIt is very hands on but my gf used it with her DS and he now is a good sleeper. I haven't used it with our DD b/c she is erratic - sometimes she sleeps, sometimes she doesn't, so I am not at the end of my tether. If you PM me your e-mail addy I will forward it to you - use it if you want, if not just discard the info.

OP - I don't actually go to a child health nurse.. see.. more evidence of bad parenting.. lol I was thinking of taking her to a GP though and seeing what they think is the best course of action. We move at the beginning of next year, but we will be staying in one room at my brother's house, so that should be interesting. Probably have to drug everyone.. including me!!

Artechim - thanks :hug:

Jakabella - it might work, but usually she wants DH to pat her until she goes to sleep. Whereas, and this is funny, if its ME, she never asks me to pat her, cos I just don't do it, and she knows I won't do it. I find it too distracting for her, but DH does it cos he doesn't want her to scream and wake up DD2.

Mad - so I can totally blame DH for it? And his family? lol

Lilima - argh I dunno. We did try that once before and then DS wanted his own room cos he's the only boy and sick of sharing everything with his sisters. He's at a tough age too - mr know it all at 4.5 years. I'll discuss it with DH and see what we can come up with. Maybe DD2 can camp out in our room for a little bit and DD1 can have the double bed to herself and see if that helps. :think:

Thanks for the suggestions guys, its truly a sucky situation, and I'm so jealous of people that have kids that sleep through, or have been sleeping through. In 4.5 years now, I've had one full night's sleep - some random night when I had 3 kids all of them decided to sleep through. I don't mind getting up for the baby, thats a given, but I feel sorry for DH getting up every night for most of the night (we don't usually get to bed till 11.30pm and he's up at 6) and he's starting to get really grey.. lol

I feel your pain!!!! Neither of mine a good sleepers (DD1 is the same age)
I have been known to give polaramine for 3 nights in a row then not again for a while to help her and us get some sleep. Also helped me to work on getting into a new routine.
Things we have done....
- background music
- necklace that has "special dreams" of princesses and fairys etc
- special dream oil
- JB's rapid return
- a special teddy that only sleeps in bed
- water bottle
- let her choose her own sheets/donna cover etc
- let her sleep on the floor when she refuses the bed
- star chart and incentives
- baby gate
- let her take books to bed so she can read to herself

umm. i'm sure there is more but that's all i can think of atm. i'm sure you've probably tried many of those already though?

Another thing that might just be coincidence, but I started giving the kids florodix vitamin supplement in the past week and they have started sleeping better - I know a symptom of low iron is trouble sleeping. And some B vitamins might be helping too. I really have no idea, but when you have been so long without sleep any straw to grasp at will do lol

Not read all the replies, but I hear you loud and clear! That was my DS too. Up 2-3 times a night for hours at a time, me trying to get my teaching assignments sorted, DH never doing the night shift unless I had a breakdown... it is awful. I'm about ready to collapse just thinking of it. I couldn't do it with another three younger than him, don't know how you do it! You are a star. I'm also a bit jealous that you get all the sleeplessness over in one shot and I have years of it more to come.

I found the solution to our problem shortly after Easter time this year. DH was away for a week, I had a huge assignment due in and couldn't spend 2-3 hours getting Liebs to sleep, so every night was a film night in my bed (he insisted I join him at 9-10pm, but I had done some work at that point). Liebling was up until 11pm-1am all week, later than me some nights, Nursery for 8am and the most well-behaved he has been for ages.

So we moved bedtime back an hour. He tells us he's tired before bedtime and puts his own pyjamas on. I read him a story at 8pm (he is welcome to get into his bed and "read" to himself before then), put on his "singy" (a Fisherprice lights and music toy that plays for 15 minutes) and he goes off by himself. At first I had to go in and re-settle and it took him an hour, now he's asleep in about 10 minutes. He sleeps through a lot more now too. We've just come back from my mother's house, where he doesn't go to sleep so easily and is indulged (ie juice after lights out, food at 4am if he feels peckish...) but home, straight back to routine.

Just scrap everything I said.

Back to having DD up screaming for an hour or so at 1am and last night DS was up 3 times before getting up for the day at 4am :(

Haven't read the other replies but just wanted to send some hugs your way :hug:

You're not crap parents - some kids just have trouble sleeping, and it sucks!

The important thing is you're considering getting help which is the right thing for your family, so good on you.

Hang in there and let us know how it all goes :hug:

Oh Mel :(
It's not your fault babe, some kids are just nit good sleepers. I can't imagine how exhausted you and C must be.

You have been given some fantastic advice... Haven't read all the posts as my eyes are a bit tired, so I'm sorry if I am repeating.

Going to add what we did with MJ at a similar age, who still walks 2-3 times a week now (3 1/2) but was several times a night until she was 3...


Biggest thing that helped was explaining to her, during daylight hours, what she was doing, how it was making us so very tired and what we would like her to do.

This actually had quite a big impact and she was better after us repeating the same thing to her a few days in a row. We also said that while we don't mind getting up to her, it is not ok for us to be spending loads of time in there, or going back in every 5 mins... so if she wakes, we will come in, sort out the problem (cuddle kiss, warm wheatbag up etc) and then we were going out... I would put on either som 'laxing' music or a story cd for her to listen to quietly.

We also have butterflies in her room and a ornament of a house. I told her that the fairies live in the house and they and the butterflies come out and kiss her whenever are sleeping, sprinkling fairy dust over her (the sleep in her eyes in the morning is the left over dust) to give her nice dreams.

We also made a Massive fuss if she slept well or went back to sleep quickly, telling her how happy she made mummy.

Just because you don't see a cmhn, doesnt mean you can't access one, maybe give your local centre a call and have a chat to start with.

:hug: I think your amazing x





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*yawn*

Night before last she slept through. All night. In her own bed.

Last night she was awake when we went to bed (round 11pm) and still awake at 5am. DH put her on a mattress next to our bed and all night she would whinge "pat me.. pat me"

I'm surprised she never woke up the baby! I'm going to make an appointment with our GP and see what they say, then the mchn if they can't help. Not going to walker house cos they use CIO methods and if she is doing it because she is scared or needs reassurance, I don't think leaving her alone to scream is going to help.

Yesterday I had heart palpitations, think it was from too much coffee. Better lay off it today..lol

Oh Mel,

Thats terrible, yep there are def sleep issues there and you probably have tried everything.

:hug: take care of yourself hun

Skimmed through the other replies and don't think it has been mentioned, but ask your GP about melatonin (the hormone responsible for controlling circadian rhythm). It worked for one of the girls in my baby buddies group - reset her DS's body clock.

Just checking up to see if you ended up seeing anyone?

Been thinking of u


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Thanks SJ :hug:

Haven't seen anyone yet, waiting for DH to get paid (which is tomorrow) :)

MNB - just wanted to send you a hug. DD1 here is a shocker sleepwise still at 5yo and like a few PP's we have tried pretty much everything and nothing has worked worked long term. Things have improved with time but she still gets up and in with us. This has been the best option as we all get more sleep overall.
I am convinced it is just how they are as DD2 was coslept, demand fed and all the things you could think would generate some separation issues but she is an infinitely better sleeper.
We were going to give yoga/meditation a go next term...maybe that will help?

:hug:

Just dropping by to give you some love !

xoxo

There is no way on earth that you are a bad mother or have bad parenting skills! Tired, yes. I haven't read all the replies so this may have already been said. Have you tried cutting her day sleep down or putting her to bed a bit later? If the mattress on the floor in your room is working, stick with it. When she asks to be patted say a stern no! and if she continues tell her that she will have to sleep in her own room. It may mean that you have to take her out and put her in her own room and she will probably scream and wake the others up but hopefully she will know that you aren't going to muck about and if she wants to sleep in your room it is on your terms. Now I sound like a horrid, grumpy old aunty...lol. Love you lots little miss. Hope you guys get some sleep soon

Hey mate, I haven't read all the replies. I really feel for you :hug: The lack of sleep wouldn't be doing any of you any good, especially not DD1.

I was actually speaking to the CHN last week about the fact that DS is waking 3-4 times a night (and usually the midnight wake up we battle for an hour or 2 to get him back to sleep) The CHN actually suggested maybe we talk to the GP about medicating him for a few nights to get his sleep cycles back into some form of normality. I was actually quite shocked intitially that the CHN suggested that for a 12 month old. But I'm telling you, if it continues for an extended period of time I'll at least be talking to the GP about it.

How did you go this week?
Been thinking of you :hug:


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:hug: I have no wise words for you hun. You know my kids have the same sorts of issues. Though they do sleep more than 7hours. That is such a small amount for a 3yr old.

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Too many kids all with sleep issues I think!! Should have stopped after DS :rolleyes: - cos since they all have issues, I guess it IS our parenting that is causing it.

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This is partly why I'm reluctant to get any kind of professional help. If I fix one, I still have the other two to deal with anyway, plus I must be doing something wrong for the 3 of them to all be such terrible sleepers. Until I can work out what that is, they will continue to be terrible sleepers!

I hope you can work it out babe, I know how torturous and damaging to relationships lack of sleep can be :(




ETA have you thought about allergies or sensitivities to additives ect? I think DS1 is probably sensitive to additives and all 3 to dairy, though to be honest I have been too lazy to try to fix it because it's so much effort, and I'm so tired, lol! I should go to an allergist or naturopath or something, though they cost money too, which we don't really have right now....

darl have you tried magnesium and rescure remedy night?? we found it helped

^i was also going to suggest Braurers Calm which is homeopathic. we found this helped

How's it all going? any improvement?

Hopefully will be back later to update - am on phone xxx

Hiya Mel, how's things going? Any changes?