4.5 year old behavior help/vent

My DS is very challenging at the moment. From the second we get home from kindy he is full of meltdowns and misbehaves. The meltdowns are about anything trivial, he wants to sit where I have sat on the couch, did/didn't want what was left in his lunchbox when I asked etc. He is always asking for me to play with him but every time I do it is all over within a short time because he does something really silly - like he wants to play lego so I sit down with him and make a car. He has a great time playing with the car for a little while and then a bit breaks off (on purpose). So I fix it. Then it breaks again and I fix it but tell him I won't fix it again if he keeps breaking it. Then he breaks it again, I refuse to fix it and he then cries, yells and flops around on the floor for the next half hour.
Or he will draw a picture, then rip the picture, then have a big upset because the picture is broken.

It is driving me crazy. I feel like I haven't spent any time with him for ages because whenever I try he is just terrible to be around. He never seems happy :( We stayed at home this weekend for the first time in ages and it was really terrible. He was naughty all day and really horrible to his sister. He is bored at home but I can't get him engaged in anything. Either he is not interested in even starting or he ruins it within a minute or two. We try to give him lots of positive attention but it seems like he is so desperate that he is willing to be growled at all day :(

Is this just what other 4 year old boys are like? Because he isn't very enjoyable to be around lately :(

I am no help I'm sorry because my DD is doing exactly the same thing. Everyone tells me this is a phase but I am really starting not to believe them.

Sending us both hugs becasue I'm praying it is a phase and we can survive.

Hoping tomorrow is a much better day for you.

My experience with my only just 5 year old is that yes, these tough and challenging times come and go in phases. We can have a couple of weeks of defiance, challenge and insistance in things going HIS way to all of a sudden have our cruisey, easy to get along with beautifully natured boy back.

I hope this is the case for you. Good luck :hug:

I find that as well EJ. It comes in phases. He is happy and we are all happy then boom, he's difficult, sulky, defiant. We just had a few days of sulky. It was driving me insane. I have tried to turn it around today by taking him to the park to tire him out and bought some craft for Easter and we did it together. It made him happy but as to whether tomorrow he will be happy I guess we will see.

He might be tired after daycare. I try to keep things very low key on these days as he is exhausted and make sure he goes to bed on time. Is it everyday that it happens or daycare days? Could he be feeling sick? Has something maybe upset him lately?

I dunno, but mine hasn't gotten any better since turning 5.. I say bring back the terrible 2's!!!!!!

(and that is with one already going through the terrible 2's!)

Tonight he was SO disrespectful that he got sent to bed early and without his nightly cup of milk. Which caused him to have a bloodcurdling scream (my neighbours HATE us I think) because I wouldn't give him his milk as punishment for him being nasty to both me and DH. He then apologised - to get the milk. And I said no because he wasn't apologising because he knew he was being a brat and totally disrespectful, he was apologising because he thought it would get him the milk.

Mama don't roll that way in this house. Dis mama is mean.

He went to bed without milk. And early. LOL

I just spent the morning with my 4.5 year-old at kinder and TBH I can see why she has meltdowns after spending the morning there, then going to childcare. The kids spend a lot of time concentrating on small but detailed stuff like painting, playdoh, pasting, threading stuff. I know they're just playing but they're still using their little brains and concentrating. I think it all gets too much and they just need to chill.

I think the park is a great idea or a bike ride/swimming - just anything physical that doesn't require too much brain energy.

my kids are like that when they're either exhausted, sick or having growth/developmental spurts. Or all three at the same time. It's exhausting but it'll pass. Eventually!

Excuse me, I think you have my child. That's ok... You can keep him lol!!

:hug: I hope it passes soon too. You're not alone!


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Excuse me, I think you have my child. That's ok... You can keep him lol!!

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hi arte- I'm going to go against the grain here and say that ds1 is not like this at all. it could be a personality thing. i don't know?
i know these sorts of things have been going on for a while for you though, and to be completely honest, i think maybe you might need to get some outside advice about it all. please take this in the way that i mean it, out of concern, not critiscm. you know that we are friends and thats why i feel that i can say this to you xox

G said what I was going to say. Whilst N has his moments what you describe doesnt sound like him - the meltdowns, almost 'sabotahing' his own games etc. If I am giving him attention he doesnt get upset while we are playing or if something goes off course.
It isnt so new for you - you have these cycles - perhaps related to his sleep?
I agree with G why dont you get someone to check it out for you - it keeps coming up and I dont know how you deal with it all.
Like G - this all comes from our friendship and how much I care for you and your kids. x

Thanks everyone. Glad to see he isn't the only super surly 4 year old around.

I should have added that this isn't a passing thing - he has been doing it for at least the last 3 months. Don't get me wrong, he can be such a nice kid when he is good, it can just go bad so quickly. It is way better on kindy days. Staying at home is a complete nightmare.

G and MP, thanks - I do appreciate the honesty. The GP did refer us to someone about the sleep and I was going to bring up the behavior stuff then. He is acting like he was back before we started kindy, when he needed more stimulation. Perhaps there is something in this 'gifted' thing like his teachers say. I really hope that he hasn't outgrown kindy, it is still 6 months before he starts school.

when do you see the person that you were referred to arte?

Dunno. Saw the GP a month ago and still haven't received anything in the mail. Will ring the GP tomorrow and make sure he actually made the referral I think.

I really think you need to follow this up with the GP. Personally, I don't think a label of *gifted* can be thrown around on his own like that - the bigger picture needs to be looked at too and saying he is gifted is easy - everyone wants a gifted child, but when you add into it that the apparent *giftedness* is a part of something else it's not so good anymore, so it's just better to stick with the *gifted* tag. It can't be looked at in isolation like the kindy teachers are doing. They see this incredibly bright kid at kindy, but they don't see what he is like at home and if they did I don't think they'd be saying he's gifted. And lets be really honest, this isn't just the last 3 months it's been going on, it's been like this for years with a few bright spots in between to lull you into thinking it's just a passing stage or developmental. I have 4 kids all with different personalities and NONE of them have acted out like that continuously. I don't know a single 4 year old who is continuously like that unless they have a reason to be like that. I've spent a lot of time at preschool while my kids have been there and you can tell the difference between what is normal bratty 4yo behaviour and what is a sign of a bigger issue.

I think he thrives on kindy days because he is getting a fully structured day and when he gets home and it's not structured he can't handle it. You know how he likes routine and things to be *just so* and kindy gives him that. I know it puts you in a crappy position because you can't dedicate the time to him to give him the structure and routine of kindy because you have the two girls and a house to run. At kindy the teachers are there solely to provide them with activities and things to do that will engage them. When you've spoken to them, have you talked about what he is like at home? No one wants to contemplate that there may be something else going on, but it can't go on like this.

I think it sounds totally normal for a tired growing little man!

Arte
Def worth checking when the appt is for – I have no idea what they may find but it is so worth checking. I am just hoping you get some strategies/advice/direction on how to deal with it and it all becomes easier for you all. I cant imagine how hard it is for you.
I hope there is nothing else going on in some ways – but at the same time if it is something you can get help with perhaps that would be a relief and it would be good to have a ‘framework’ to work within.
Hugs to you my friend – you are doing a great job.

Trill, from what I have read about giftedness, there is a large behavior aspect to it. I must have given the wrong impression along the line. He is an anxious boy, and he does like to have fair warning of what is happening and he is a perfectionist but he is nowhere near as rigid as you think. He is chatty and social, he plays with other kids. I am 99% sure he is not on the ASD.

But you are right, it has been going on in one form or another since he was about 18 months old. There is an issue.

I have been wondering for a while if it is possible that his intellectual side and his emotional side mismatch. I just googled and it is real thing - Asynchronous Development. It fully describes him, he is very smart but emotionally he can't cope with as much as you would expect from a 4 year old. Or maybe I expect more from him because he is so smart.

I will talk to the kindy teachers and see if there is any sort of help they can access. Just some tactics on how to handle him at home would be great.

hey arte, how is it going?
did you end up getting on to the gp about the referral?

Thanks G.
Chased up the GP today and he did make the referral a month ago. I guess I just have to wait for however long it takes to get an appointment.
Of course since I started this thread he has settled down again!

still think it won't hurt to go to the referral xox

maybe you just need a running thread about it all Arte!
Did they know how long is usual for an appt? Hope you dont have to wait too long. x

I dont have time to read all the responses to this so i apologise if this has already been said.

Most of what will be driving this behaviour is tiredness. You are doing the right thing giving him positive attention but it is very important that you dont give him any attention at all when his behaviour is undesirable. This is very simple what i am going to tell you, but it does work. When he shows inappropriate behaviour, tell him in very few words what you want him to do ie. jumping on the couch "sit down please", if he doesnt comply hold up a finger and says "thats 1", wait 5 to 10 seconds with no other interaction or words, if he doesnt comply hold up 2 fingers and say "thats 2", wait 5 to 10 seconds, if he doesnt comply say "thats 3, take 4" and take him quietly to his room for time out. While he is in time out it is not a punishment, so if he plays with his toys in there its ok, after 4 mins tell him he can come out now and speak nothing more of what happened, clean slate. It will take several attempts at this before he gets the new routine but he will get it and generally they get it quickly. If the situation is something like hes hitting his sibling then you dont count to 3, its an immediate "thats 3, take 4".

Might seem too simple but i urge all of you having issues to try it. it does work, sometimes it takes perseverance. There is also a book you can get called 1,2,3 Magic which helps more in depth than ive gone today.

Thanks for that Kristi. We have been doing the 1,2,3 thing for a couple of years now. It doesn't deter him at all.

There is more going on than a behavior problem. It is like that one last thing just overwhelms him and he crumbles. He seems to have a lack of coping skills. I spoke to a health nurse today for over an hour and she has chased up the GP referral and made another with a child health unit.

It is so hard to explain, because he is really a nice kid - he is chatty and witty and has a fantastic imagination and then bam!, tantrum.

that is great that you are persevering with this arte. hopefully the child health unit can point you in the right direction.
i agree with you that this is more than a behaviour problem.

oh Boy! This is happening all the time with my newly turned 4 yr old DS!
He chucks a hissy all the time, eg if his lego's break off etc.
He goes to daycare/kindy 3 times a week - but has been sick this week so stayed at home.

I think he gets bored too. I;m secretly waiting for him to start school just to have some peace. !!

That's great Arte - what did the nurse think?

MP, at first the nurse thought attention seeking because of the new baby etc. Then the more we talked about the anxiety, the separation issue, how he is worried about school already, how long it has been happening, night tantrums, she thought there was more to it. Then when I told her how smart he is, like how he had done an online reading program for 6 weeks and completed what was basically a school year of reading, she didn't know what to say lol.

Reading up on gifted kids it seems that anxiety and over emotional responses (like tantrums over small things) are very common. I don't want to be *that* mother, but I really do think that is the direction that we should be looking in for help for him. I was considered gifted as a child, I don't think it is unrealistic to think that my son would be too.

Arte, these days giftedness is Aspergers Asperger's Syndrome. Ask any teacher and they will tell you the same. Maybe in NZ they still percieve giftedness to be something in it's own right, but if you were still in Aus, it would be called aspergers. I am not going to say anything more about this to you because I honestly think you have blinkers on to the situation and aren't ready to hear it because 'giftedness' sounds so much better than 'aspergers'. Either way, he needs help which he is not currently getting that will help him deal with his emotional outbursts and behaviour issues. Just because he *might* be gifted, does not mean that is the end of it. You owe it to him to seek out whatever help you can to help him build the tools and strategies he needs to cope. What are you going to do with him when he's 15 and still doing this? Are you just going to walk away from him then because he's not listening to you or doing things your way? I've listened and supported you for years over this and TBH it's getting tiring, especially when I can see that you're not really doing anything to help him. It's hard to keep putting on the brave face and tell you platitudes like 'it will pass soon' or 'its just a stage' because it is well beyond that. You know us all Arte, our group have been belly and baby buddies for nearly 5 years now and we love you to death and we hate seeing how hard all of this is for you because we all feel so helpless that we can't offer more practical help or advice, but it's frustrating to keep trying to support you when you don't really do anythying to help the situation. Going to the nurse was a positive move and I hope talking to her really makes a difference and you get that referral so you can move forward to this, but once you get it you have to make sure you follow it through and not think that because things have settled down that everything is OK and it must have just been a stage. Because you know it will happen again :hug:

ETA - I thought I would add that we went through this with our best friends and their eldest son. We *knew* that something wasn't right with him, but no one could quite put their finger on it. Our friends thought that he was incredibily 'busy' and full on, because in among all the stuff that he was doing, he would have moments of brilliance that would make you think that he was just a normal toddler. When he started preschool it didn't take long before he got a dx of autism and when we heard, I told my friend that I had a feeling all along that this is what was going on for him and she said 'why didn't you say anything' and I told her - would you have listened to me if I did? and she admitted that she probably wouldn't have. Her DH found it really hard to deal with 'his son' not being perfect or normal like other kids, but you know what? Once they got that dx they found it so much easier to relate to him and have patience for the things he would do. They were able to put in place strategies to help him and themselves deal with him when he had outbursts, but now he's getting older (he is nearly 11) it is getting worse again as he is now getting physically violent with them on occasion. I know he is at the lower end of the scale to W, but the point is that until they knew what made him tick, they couldn't help him and once they knew it made things easier.

Arte I don't know you as well as the other ladies, but I'll give you my opinion...

I'm a Special Ed teacher...

'Giftedness' is no excuse for the type of behaviour you describe. TBH I think it's being used in this situation to allow your DS to behave in a way that is neither beneficial for your family or himself.

I'm not a medical professional and I'm not going to tell you what I think might be the problem, but what you need to know is that you need to be proactive about this. The longer you leave this, the bigger a problem it is going to become. IF your DS gets a diagnosis, you can get up to $12k in funding for therapies etc BUT ONLY if the diagnosis is made before he turns 6.

Allow your son to be himself and to be happy. The only way you are going to achieve this is to stop making excuses and do something! I'm sure you won't leave your son if he's physically ill, not take him to the Dr etc. this is not much different.

Aspergers is not a life sentence. It will give you the opportunity to help your son adjust to his world. The sooner you do something, the better the outcomes.

Good luck

How have things been the last few days Arte???I am really glad you spoke at such length w the nurse. I hope this all leads to a place where you And DH have some strategies to deal w him... Better for all of you and best for him.I have no idea on giftedness, aspergwrs etc - but when you say you were the same and I think of how you have described your school years - i hope that yuh are able to help him deal with whatever is going on so he can grow up with more deep confidence etc. He is a guest kid and you are a great mum - there will be light atbthe end of tbbid tunnel - all you have to do is find the right people, tools, strategies to get thereI am going to be really hints, I am sure you know I was a bit surprised you gave phenergen for sleep (no judgement I can assure you) - my thoughts are that if his sleep was that bad, and if you felt you would resort to that to to force more sleep and so you can cope... Then finding a cause anc staregy must be worth it.I am here ti support you, as I know all our buddies are - just don't want this to continue on unmanaged for any of you.All said with care xxx

Trill, the reason I have never followed through on Aspergers is because he doesn't have it. I can find nothing on the net suggesting that gifted and aspergers are the same thing, only that they often overlap. Even the link you provided makes him seem far more likely to be gifted. He does not just repeat facts by rote, he actually learns and understands. This is one of the things the kindy teachers commented on when they approached me to tell me they think he is gifted. He is an introvert, but he does have a couple of friends and he plays with the other kids if wants to. He doesn't miss social cues, any hesitation is more from anxiety of not doing things right or the other kids making fun of him. He doesn't care about routine, doesn't have rituals or gestures, he doesn't have the 'little professor' speech.
It is my fault you have the impression you do - he has passed through many phases that did ring alarm bells and I probably haven't updated as he grew out of them. I am not stupid, I can google as well as anyone. I am quite aware of sensory issues and ASD, but the fact is that he just doesn't fit the criteria for those disorders.
My mother has worked with intellectually disabled people for the last 15 years, including two years as a teachers aide in a special needs school unit working with ASD kids. She is not the type to keep quiet if the thought even crossed her mind that he might have Aspergers.

I am sorry that it is tiring for you and I am painfully aware of how often I post about whatever his current issue is. I am not looking for platitudes, generally I am venting to try and get out some frustration before I go off to deal with the next meltdown. I even started this thread to avoid dumping in the buddies group as I know you must all be sick of listening to me whinge. I will take more care not to offload in our threads anymore.

MP, thanks xx

I know there is something different about him and I am trying to get him some help.

Oh hon.... Don't feel like you can't write in our thread... Of course you can and should... ( and I am fairly sure trill wouldn't mean you to take it that way)
I am glad you will get him help.... And we are all here for you whatever the outcome is. You are our friend and we care for you both.

Xxxxx

Ps sorry for the atrocious typos etc in my last post ( I obv don't edit!)

It sounds like there is a lot of background and history going on between everyone that I am not privy to, so I'm sure I don't know the full story.

I must disagree with the "gifted IS aspergers" comment though?? I have worked for the Association for Autistic Children, I have been a teacher in the past, and dh has an extended relative with aspergers, and I have done lots of research/reading on it, so I am in no way an expert, but I know a bit about it.
You can have:
1. A gifted child, 2. An aspergers child (or on the spectrum) or 3. A gifted child who also has aspergers (twice exeptional they often call it.)

All gifted children don't have aspergers and to have aspergers you don't have to be gifted as well. Gifted kids can get misdiagnosed as aspergers because they can share some excitabilities/sensitivities etc. Kids can have both and being gifted can ameliorate things in terms of helping them find ways to cope. As with all of these kinds of things there is a long broad continuum and kids can fall anywhere along it.

Artechim it sounds from the reading and other things you have mentioned like he may well be "gifted", I guess you are now looking at whether he is gifted-plus-some-other-issue, which it is hard to tell just from your post and not hearing the whole history. I have a "gifted" (whatever the label) 3.5 year old, and he can be an odd fish at times. He has just started kindy as well. He doesn't have the behaviour issues you describe, but is a very sensitive little fellow, and in the beginning of kindy was a bit overwhelmed by it I think, and not used to being in large groups of children without me as support. Did your behaviour issues start with kindy or does this pre-date all of that (which I am guessing from what some of the other posters have said that it does)? Does he like Kindy?

I hope you get the help you are seeking.

Arte, maybe he is fine and he's just gifted with a few other things going on, I would LOVE to be proven wrong. but what is the most frustrating is that you just aren't doing much to find out and then complain when it gets bad again. YOu went to a Dr and got a referal, but you only chased it up after people kept on at you about it. You didn't even know who the referral was too or what they were specifically referring you for. I think had you not posted this thread and had people tell you to follow up on it that you would have just kept waiting in limbo for it. I just don't know what is holding you back about doing something? Are you worried that they might find something or are you certain everything is fine and this referal is just a formality?

I would never, ever, want you to feel that you can't offload onto us in our buddies group because I know you don't have a lot of support IRL and I don't want you to keep it bottled in because if you did you would explode! You are dealing with so much more than you should have to and I'm sure it gives all of our group a sense of helplessness to know that you find it hard sometimes. And when it's like that, what else can we give you that doesn't seem like empty words? I am sooooo sorry if I came across as being too harsh, but it came from good intentions Arte :hug:

arte- of course we want you to still keep talking about all this in our group. but, i also would love for you to get some help with it IRL and maybe some answers and strategies.
how is the referral thing going? xox

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I am sorry that it is tiring for you and I am painfully aware of how often I post about whatever his current issue is. I am not looking for platitudes, generally I am venting to try and get out some frustration before I go off to deal with the next meltdown. I even started this thread to avoid dumping in the buddies group as I know you must all be sick of listening to me whinge. I will take more care not to offload in our threads anymore.

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Aw Arte :hug: Don't feel like you have to button any thing down in our little thread - if I'm allowed to whinge long and lyrical about the minutiae of my life then everyone else can and that includes you.

I've been half-following this thread - badly - on my phone and today is the first day I've been able to read it through completely. Interesting timing for me too because I'm just back from spending some time with my godson - who I adore - and his brothers who are all pretty special and sometimes v. challenging too. All those kids have had issues with sleep, with dietary sensitivities (many of which they have now outgrown), and sudden flare ups of OTT behaviour. The eldest is definitely on the aspie side (more noticeable now), but my godson not so much (although the family history is all there). BUT he (GS) has finally been assessed (after years on the waiting list) and he is super intelligent (as in the psych had to look up how to score the testing instrument because he completed ALL of the questions and most people only complete to the halfway point). But here's the thing - he totally flunked out the entire section that tests how the brain decodes symbols - like wildly wildly below average. So his insanely high intelligence comes at the price of other aspects of brain function that aren't working so well. Interestingly he has always been food sensitive and is now strongly coeliac - which my friend believes linked to his earlier behaviour issues (because when the bowel is damaged bigger food particles can leak through it resulting in a higher level of total system irritation) - AND at times he has been quite hypersensitive to environmental stimuli.

I'm telling you all of this because I think this is a really good example of a gorgeous bright kid like your W, who has simultaneously faced a whole lot of difficulties with other facets of life, none of which were easy to identify (esp at first when there was a big complex of competing things happening all at once) and none very easy to label either. BUT his parents have kept at it, teasing out and dealing with each issue as it arose and now at 11 he's a very well-rounded and well-supported kid who is thriving and will continue to do so. And so will W. But it has been a long road and required pretty consistent agitation by his parents (esp with drs, schools, etc) who have provided a number of conflicting opinions, some of which were helpful and some of which were not. So this is where you come in. Keep asking those questions, keep trying new strategies - no one thing is going to 'fix' the difficulties you're having, but over time and put together, things will get easier and smoother, and you will learn more about what works for W and what doesn't.

PS. After that long and rambly answer (that you know and love me for) I also want to add - the most AMAZING thing about my GS is that he is *totally* empathic. I'm quite energetically sensitive, and the very first time I met my GS as a baby he plugged in energetically into my own energy, very strongly, in a way I have only ever known other empaths to do. This explains (in my world view) the sort of overloading that he experiences (because he has so much non-verbal energetic information coming at him at once) and is very typical in children who are psychically empathic. They usually learn to screen against all the energetic noise as they get older. I'm just throwing this in there because sometimes the answers for a particular child are just as unique as the child themselves, and that's part of their journey of growing into who they are going to be in their life.

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. I'm just throwing this in there because sometimes the answers for a particular child are just as unique as the child themselves, and that's part of their journey of growing into who they are going to be in their life.

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that is the most beautiful thing I have read on bb!

LOL Trill, I didn't know who the referral was to because after I described the sleep problems the Dr said "I will refer you to...How on earth do you survive?!". I was too busy trying not to cry to question any further (stress response - that anxious little apple didn't fall too far from the tree :( )

Don't know why it has taken me so long to do something. For the first couple of years DH kept saying the tantrums were because he was not sleeping and he was not sleeping because I had f'ed it up with this gentle parenting BS. I talked to a nurse at a check up once in the early days of sleep issues and she told me that I had caused it and I had to do controlled crying to fix it so I didn't bother talking to anyone else. Then it was because of A, then something else etc. It is hard because just as you hit rock bottom and start looking for help, he comes out of it. Until the next time. Plus, it is probably really shallow and self indulgent, but I hate the thought that I have caused him to be this way iykwim?

MD, I know you have mentioned those kids to me before. I know I should try some diet things and I strongly suspect a sugar issue but there is no point if I can't get DH on board. He agrees in theory but then doesn't follow through. Thanks for that perspective xx