For the first time, breastfeeding is hard :(

I'm hating breastfeeding DS right now :(

With DD it was the easiest thing I ever did, I could never really even feel her on there. The only issues we had were with lazy attachment when she turned 1, causing cracks and an infection, and then a bit of latching pain when I got pregnant.

Neither of those issues compare to this though. It's been different with DS from the start, I've had to be more careful with watching him latch and making sure he's on properly, it always seemed like he couldn't open his mouth wide enough to get enough in. Now I'm in pain every time, I'm dreading feeding him and I cringe through the first minute. This morning it brought tears to my eyes.

It used to be just the left so at least I could feed on the right and get some relief, but now they're both agony. The skin on the outside bottom is very thin, he's really worn it down. It's like he rubs it wrong with his tongue or gums or something. I'm putting on lansinoh and breastmilk but it almost feels pointless, they don't have enough time to heal between feeds anyway.

I'm wondering if it's a tongue tie, no health professional has said anything but DH and I can see it. I'm wondering if maybe he can't get his tongue out far enough and that's causing the rubbing. I'm not concerned with DS himself - he's definitely getting enough milk, output and growth is good. I just don't want to be in pain every time :(

Every Bub is different hugs

Get checked for tongue and lip tie definitely and sooner the better. Maybe see a LC for attachment as well. Also it is possible that maybe you have thrush now which will affect healing and causing pain.

Oh no, that's no good at all! Get on to an LC stat :hug:
It's great to hear that he's getting enough milk, but this has to work for the both of you. If you're in pain, then something is certainly not right.

Teeki I know the feeling :( that dread of feeding is what I with dd1 :hug:

Do you go to the cyh centre near you? You can get a LC through them, also when you do your drop in appointment mention it to the nurse, they helped me a lot.

Had it been ok then got bad, or just bad from day 1?

:hug: Teeki

***hugs*** every bub is different with my first DS I dreaded feeds but DD was totally different. I hope Someone can help. X

I've never dreaded feeds like this, this has only been the last couple of days. It's always been different and I've been more watchful of him -sometimes his top lip doesn't flare out properly so I fix it, and that used to be the only thing that caused pain. But now it's underneath, and from what I can see his latch is good. He's got enough in his mouth, it's nice and wide, he's just doing who knows what when he's on there!

His four month check up is next Monday, I was hoping. I could hold out until then. If the pain continues like this though I think I'll be calling the local health service for help :( I'm not even sure if they have LCs out here, but the midwife I had for DS pregnancy and birth was very knowledgeable, there should be someone who can help.

He had a feed to sleep after I posted, and it was actually better than this morning thankfully. Now while he's sleeping and I feel fine it's easy to just want to dismiss it, but then I don't want it to hurt again next time. Think I have some phone calls to make!

Please make sure someone helps you. It sucks so much when it hurts. And it affects how well you relax etc.
Poor you xx

Oh lovely Teeki :( This isn't how it should be. Pain isn't normal, get thee to an LC stat.

If you think you can see tongue tie, def. get it looked at by a pro, if it is that then once it's fixed, and DS has had time to get a feel for / adjust to his 'new' mouth (and once you have healed) things should improve quickly. Also see a LC. Big hug in the meantime, DD didn't have tongue tie but had latch and position issues and I too went through a fear of pain/dread phase. It is very disarming emotionally/mentally.

Where are you Teeki? Is there an ABA group out there you could contact? Have you looked on lcanz.org? Otherwise I hope you can get on to someone. Don't wait, it's not likely to get better by itself (or it would have already).
The only other suggestion I would have is trying baby-led/laid-back nursing to see if that helps (if you haven't done that already).

Thanks everyone.

I've got an appointment to get his tongue checked at his 4 month check up next Monday. Thankfully we now have a wonderful Dr who I really trust so I think if his tongue is causing problems she'll be able to help. DH remembers our midwife mentioning the tongue tie and saying it's only minor, but if it causes problems to get it looked at. I mustn't have been paying attention because I don't remember it but he says that's the only reason he knows anything about tongue tie lol.
If that's a problem for him and it needs to be snipped, how do they do that? At 4 months does he get anesthetic? Do the nurses there doing his injections do it or do we need a hospital referral? Neither of us like the idea of it, the injections are bad enough.

I wasn't able to get onto an LC yet, I'll try again tomorrow morning. I've had a look at that site MadB and there's one that looks like she'd come out here. I think there used to be a more local ABA group but there were very few members, now there's just one closer to the city. Because things were so simple with DD I went and let my membership lapse. If I can't get directly onto the LC though I'll give them a call, I'm still getting their emails.

After he woke from his nap he fed four times. I offered the right first every time because it doesn't hurt much, but he kicked up a big stinky every time I tried the right and then when I swapped to the left he got all excited and latched straight on. The first three weren't too bad, it actually hurt less each time. Then the fourth time he closed his mouth a bit just before latching, sucked right on and pulled :( Mega ouchies and blood :(

So now he's had a bath, he's exhausted and hungry, poor bugger. He's having a feed and going to sleep on the right which feels fine, but when he's done he's going to want the left too before bed. I just hope the lansinoh and leaving it out has helped enough for that.

If there's a TT, then I'd suggest getting it snipped immediately, regardless of whether it's considered minor or not. To me it sounds as though there is likely some sort of physiological problem here. Some peads do it, or dentists, or LC may be able to help - you'll need to ask/call around. At this age, I believe it's a quick snip, no anaesthesia, but you'll have to ask them. If you can, maybe also get an experienced LC (or some other health professional with experience in lactation) to check for posterior tongue tie and lip tie, also, to also rule these out.

It's good to bear in mind that even if TT is the issue and you get it snipped, it can take a while for baby to relearn to latch without the tie, so it may not be an immediate fix (but it should get better with time). A skillful LC can help you with this process.

Aside from trying baby-led attachment, you could also consider seeing a chiro or osteo, in case there's some other non-mouth related issue. I don't know if there's anyone near you who has expertise with babies? It's something some mums find useful in these cases.

Thanks MadB. We always do baby-led attachment, from the start he didn't quite get it and needed help. At about a week old it kind of clicked for him and now I basically get it out and he does his thing lol. It felt odd at times but with a bit of correcting he was ok, now I'm really regretting not making more of a fuss about it, I just thought he wasn't opening up enough and it'd get better as he got older and bigger.

If I can get onto the LC tomorrow, how much could she go through on the phone? And how long is usually to an appointment? I'm a bit over an hour north of Adelaide. If she recommends getting it looked at earlier I'll go in to the hospital to speak to a pead I reckon. I don't think waiting a week is a good idea.

There is an osteo in the city recommended by a friend, she took her DD there, and there's one who looks at children and babies back where I used to live, half an hour away. If I still need help after this I'll give them a go.

Thankfully tonight he didn't want/need the second side. It might mean he wakes for a feed earlier but right now I'm happy I get a little more healing time.

ETA: Spoke too soon. Snuck in to change bras and he was in there poking his tongue at and just looking around at the room. Thankfully latching on wasn't quite as toe-curling as I was imagining and once he's going it's ok. At least now I have an excuse to watch The Block instead of going for a jog lol.

Also, DH is hating watching me feed right now (and listening to the swearing that goes with it lol) and wants to help. He remembered nipple shields from our ante-natal classes with DD - would these help short term or just cause separate problems? If tonight is anything like last night then by morning I'll be desperate.

The LC can talk you through what you've done so far and where you're at. She may also be able to give you further referrals for releasing TT, if you want that. As for apt times, it really varies. Don't understate the pain you're in when you talk to her :) Don't suggest it's getting better. Just tell her how it is for you when you feed; hopefully she'll be able to see you soon.
You could try shields - this is another thing LCs can work with you on. It's important if you're using them to a) still be looking at underlying issues b) make sure you get the right size and use them correctly (or can cause more issues) c) make a plan for stopping them (and obviously, this would hopefully dovetail with fixing the actual problem). At this point it may well be worth a try! Pharmacies often stock several brands - it might be worth getting a few to see which suits you best. It's hard to know about sizes, which is where the LC can come in, as well as trouble shooting their use and help with weaning off them.
I'm a big believer in making appointments just in case and then cancelling them if you no longer need them, so that's an option with the osteo (and anyone else you reckon might be able to help).
Sometimes mums can muddle through and things just get better, but it really just shouldn't be like this, you know? If your baby is latching themselves and still not getting it, then there's something else that needs addressing. Babies are born to breastfeed, it's what they want and need, and when they can't, there's a reason why. Good luck with your calls tomorrow.

Oh honey :hug: BFing pain is unbearable especially because you have to do it so often even if you're hurting! Everyone has given all the advice (and a bucket load more than I have) but possibly also consider DS has a small mouth/ bubble palette. I battled for such a long time with DD, took DS to see a LC at day 5 and she diagnosed DS's bubble palette and DD's as being much higher and a tiny mouth to boot. Only took 4 years for someone to 'discover' why I was always in agony. Huge hugs, if the lansinoh isn't helping there must be some awful damage atm :hug: Get some help and you will be bounce back before you know it.

DD2 had a posterior TT and we took her to an osteo and had fabulous success. i took her to someone in fitzroy...am happy to PM you her details if ya want :)

Thank you all for the advice and hugs, it means a lot.

To be honest I didn't help myself, breastfeeding was always the easiest thing I did for my kids, I was sure it would go away, not get worse. So it got pretty bad before I started with the lansinoh. Now that I'm using it consistently it's definitely helping.

I definitely won't downplay the pain - when I say it's better it's still not a pain I ever wish to experience again. It still has me gripping a cushion and gritting my teeth, but it's nowhere near the peak of this morning.

I think first up I'll call the LC in the morning. I'll book an appointment and see if she thinks I should go see the pead, though I think I might just do that anyway. At this stage I'm not too fussed about the osteo, and if I do need them they can do appointments quickly, they're quite small.

Thanks Cassius, but I'm in SA :)

Definitely don't wait hun. Get onto it tomorrow.

As I am the self proclaimed expert on feeding with shields (lol), I recommend getting the Avent large shields. The Avent ones have a cut out for both nose and chin so that they still work the breast with their chin as they are meant too and they can still smell you :).

My LC said to try and get the largest possible so that the baby doesn't get into a bad habit of not opening their mouth wide enough when you want to change back to normal.

My LC had also diagnosed dd1 with a bubble palette, I ended up feeding her for 15 months with the shields. If you can try and feed one side with shield, one side without, that way he doesn't get too use to the feel and will wean off them easy later. Dd1 never weaned because she got use to them and didn't like my nipple (I had to use them longer than I should have though because of the extent of damage, reoccurring mastitis and her palette.

They saved me though. I remember waking up one morning to feed and just crying because I couldn't put her on because of the pain.

Could it be thrush? The of sign I had nipple thrush was pain, cracks and bleeding. Ds never had white dots in his mouth. The thrush makes the skin slow to heal. Lansinoh makes it all worse.

So you have sore nipples between feeds? Any breast pain?

What an emotional morning :(

I had a really good talk to the LC, she got me to describe exactly what happens during feeding, how the pain is and what it looks like under his tongue. She said she doesn't believe in a "minor" tongue tie and it sounds as though he can't get his tongue forward enough to do the proper "wave" action so he's moving it forward and back and that's causing the pain. Because of the cost of her coming out here, she recommended an appointment with an oral surgeon first, and then see her.

I told her there were peads at the local hospital, but she doesn't trust any peads in Adelaide with tongue tie, especially once bub is this age. So I called their office and have an appointment for Friday afternoon. I've gotta go to the Dr first to get a referral letter. They said if it does need to be cut he may do it then and there, she couldn't tell me if he would have an oral sedative or not.

But now that I'm going down this road I think of the pain it will cause him, he's lying there smiling at me and blowing raspberries, it makes me not want to do it :( Then I think of the pain of feeding him and I don't want to do that either. And the cost, if this doesn't help, or there's something else I can do, I'd rather not spend this much. I'm kind of at a point of not really knowing what to do, I just wish we'd had it looked at so much earlier :(

As for thrush, I have no idea. DD had oral thrush once but I never had any pain or anything with it. Everything looks and feels fine apart from the worn part of skin.

Lanolin can sometimes make things worse as it keeps the nipple moist - dry is often better. Milk, air, sun
Hope you get somewhere today

:hug: Things are never easy and they it all seems very overwhelming at times when there are so many decisions to be made, especially when it involves our kiddies. I have no experience with tongue toe but if they snip it there, I would assume at the very least they would use a numbing gel.

We did little tongue exercises with DD because the midwives thought she couldn't get her tongue our far enough at first. For the life of me I cant remember what they were. No idea if they helped but if DS is tongue tied I cant see that this would help either.

Pain like you are describing is awful. You poor thing :comfort: that moment when your toes literally curl into the carpet is sickening. I wish I had more to offer. I do have loads of these though :hug:

Hun I haven't been in your shoes but I want to help... If he has a tongue tie, he could have problems later in life, with speech... He could start to have problems getting enough milk... The best thing to do is get it snipped, soon as you can. It might not even be a problem - you've got an appointment, go get it looked at and make some decisions from there.

Just remember if it does need to be snipped, they will have heaps of experience and will know how to do it as painlessly as possible. And if he cries, just think of it like an immunisation - little sting for a life time of benefits. And breastfeeding provides instant pain relief and feel good stuff for both of you so stick him on the boob as soon as its done (if you're able).

:hug:

oh, sorry, I totally missed your update.
This is good, you're making progress. And mate, seriously, you need to do this. You've got months more breastfeeding ahead of you - don't go through any more pain than you need to. A snip might hurt for a minute, but stopping breastfeeding would have a bigger impact on him (and keeping going like this has serious cost for you).
:hug:

Thanks everyone. I cried a lot this morning just thinking of it, I was trying to convince myself it was getting better and he'd just grow out of it. But it's not better, it still seriously hurts and I don't want him to have issues with speech or eating. I guess I needed a bit of a push to go ahead with it.

I kind of don't know what's worse - putting up with this until Friday or putting him through that. Either way I think I'm going to be a mess for a little while :( I've still been putting the Lansinoh on or breastmilk if I can and then going topless for the last two days unless going out. That seems to help for a bit, he goes on the right mostly and that one feels alright, but if he wants the left too much it doesn't take long for it to be agony again. If I get enough break in between using that one it's not as bad.

I think now I just need to suck it up and make that referral appointment.

So I did it. Have the referral appointment on Thursday and will get her to check his lip and look for a posterior tie too. I had a good chat to a friend whos DS is getting and lip and tongue tie lasered tomorrow, and a bit of a sook to DH when he got home. I'm feeling much better about it all now, and while I'll probably still be a wreck on Friday I'm looking forward to working towards fixing this.

I'm only just reading this now.
=( sorry to hear it is so hard for you two atm. big massive squishy hugs. you need to get it sorted, it will hurt now. but in the long run it will be better.

Massive hugs. It is one of the worst pain experiences out there.

Get yourself some rite aid brand breast discs (NOT breast pads). You can't get them everywhere - I couldn't get them at woolies but could at Coles. I had the kind of pain you're experiencing for about 7 months, plus 10 bouts of mastitis with my second, and they were what enabled me to get thought it. Infinitely better than lanolin.

Thanks TT and surprised.

We've got those discs at a chemist in the next town, I'll write it down for DH. Unfortunately I won't have a car tomorrow but DH has offered to go get whatever I need on his way home from work.

Oh teeki, lots of hugs. DS1 didn't have tt but we had issues with attachment that led to the same pain your describing. I remember hating bf time, and tensing up at the thought. I'd curl up my toes attaching him and often swear. I didn't do anything though until I was at the point of saying "I can't do this anymore". And DH wanted me to stop because he couldn't stand watching me in pain. Mine were bad, I couldn't even touch them at all, and a towel was like sandpaper. Once we got attachment correct it all improved extremely quickly. I had to position nipple into his soft pallet as he wasn't attaching totally correctly, though it looked correct from my pov.

I did the milk, air, sunlight and lanolin. I found these pads that had a type of healing gel on them that really helped to soothe and heal my nipples. Will try to find the name of them.

Multi mam compresses ;)

Oh and here's a few more hugs xx

Let us know how your appointments go Teeki. Thinking of you.

We had our GP appointment today. Very quick because I already have the appointment for tomorrow, but she had a look and she said yes there's a tongue and upper lip tie, and if it's causing issues breastfeeding she's got no issues recommending a referral to have them snipped.

Tonight I'm in a bit of pain and feeling off. I've been avoiding the left side because of the pain, so then I got worried that the way I'm feeling could be the start of mastitis due to not draining it. It hurts more of the breast now, it hurts to touch. So I tried expressing while DS was in the bath to see if there'd be any relief. It was actually worse, there was blood in the milk from a crack and the pain was constant, whereas when DS feeds on it it's just for the first 30 seconds or so.

So I'm completely second guessing myself, it's stupid. The right side is totally back to normal, no pain. If it was the ties causing the problem, wouldn't it be ongoing? Now I'm worried it's actually thrush in the left breast. I just don't know anymore :(

It's always possible there's more than one issue there Teeki. :hug: Keep going mate, and keep asking for help - you'll get there.
Has DS fed off the left side to drain it? How is it now?

I had a nice warm shower - that felt fantastic - and tried hand expressing, but I'm so useless at that. It didn't even feel like there was anything in there after using the pump though. I did put DS on there, man did I have to psych myself up for that! Because I'm feeling so crappy I think I made it even worse in my head. He was on there for a bit, til he'd had enough. I still feel off though, but after going outside to bring in the washing I realised it's my legs, butt and shoulders that have sore muscles. Maybe I've overdone the exercise, I don't know.

I'm just all around tired and feeling blergh right now, so I'm going straight to bed once he's back asleep. He's on the right now, I'll put him on the left after. The funny thing is once he's latched on and I've gotten through that pain, if he comes off, has a look round then goes back on, it doesn't hurt that time.

Unfortunately does sound a lot like mastitis

Take nurofen (can take panadol too if you need it but nurofen better for mastitis)
Go to bed. Go directly to bed. Stay there as much as humanly possible.
If you feel worse in morning go to doctor ASAP
Cabbage leaves on breast does work. Will reduce supply slightly (as will being sick) but it will recover
Do you have a pump you could use for the sore side?
Any lumps?

Do you have a bath? I found hand expressing easier in the bath. Submerge the breast for a bit then I would massage down towards the nipple and press the nipple as I got their (essentially pinch the outer side of the areola). In the bath I found it easier to find and work on any lumps.

:hug: Hun hope it's not mastitis!

It's reassuring that the pain improves or goes away. Hopefully this means things are on the up.
How are you feeling today?