Do you use an "H" harness with your booster?

Did you know that VicRoads recommends you don't? If your car has a lap-sash seatbelt, the one that goes from shoulder to opposite hip, with a lap belt as well, then they recommend not using any sort of additional child safety harness.

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Are child safety harnesses recommended?
No. A child safety harness is difficult to use and fit correctly and is commonly misused. Incorrect use of the child safety harness can cause the seatbelt to ride up into the child's stomach area, which may cause injury or death to a child in a crash.

Do not use a child safety harness where a lap-sash seatbelt is available. Research recommends using a child safety harness only in situations where it is not possible to replace your lap-only seatbelt with a lap-sash seatbelt.

If you are not able to replace your lap-only seatbelt with a lap-sash seatbelt you will need to use a child safety harness with a booster seat. In this case, it is recommended to use a booster seat with an anti-submarining feature to hold the lap part of the seatbelt down low on the child’s hips.

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From VicRoads - Child Safety Harnesses

We've currently got them on DD's Boston Hipod. Think I might be removing them...

I read that a while ago and removed it. It was always a PIA to get on and off him each time, so I didn't need too much convincing.

I did use one when DS was younger. I agree, I hated using it, but thought it the best option. Glad they make seats for older kids now with the 5 point harness.

Hmmm, we do, for both kids, the lap seatbelt bit does ride up a bit too, will have a look tomorrow to see where they sit on the kids

Used for DS1 until he was 5. DS2 has been in a booster since he was 4 and a bit with H harness but lots of fiddling to sit right on him as he doesn't seem to be as broad across shoulders as DS1 was at same age so if not right slides if shoulders.

I have been looking at car seats all day and now I am totally and completely confused. If they have a convertible booster can they stay in the harness? Or once their shoulders hit the top of the change to booster marker is it safest to move them to the lap-sash belt. Or is it a combination of this plus a weight rating? If you have to move them once they hit the booster marker it seems odd to have such a young child in a lap sash belt only (DS is almost at the middle of the change to booster marker in DD's seat and isn't 3 yet).

double post

They can't go into a lap sash belt until they are 4. (Disclaimer - I can't find out where I got this info from, and the rules change so often).

While they still fit, safest to keep them in the 5 point harness.

I think is no wonder people are confused - it is all very confusing.

Have weight limits now been totally got rid of? E.g. Can a child stay in a convertible booster if the harness fits and are above 4 and over the change to booster line - e.g. is the change to booster line a guideline or does it mean that once past that they are safer in the booster + lap-sash belt? I am thinking of DD here - is 5 this month about 24kg and 113 cm. Do different pure boosters have different weight ratings or is it irrelevant - e.g. - she is fairly heavy so if I do get a pure booster do I need to get one with the highest weight rating so lasts the longest?

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They can't go into a lap sash belt until they are 4. (Disclaimer - I can't find out where I got this info from, and the rules change so often).

While they still fit, safest to keep them in the 5 point harness.

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I agree.

We have DD1 still in her car seat with the harness, hasn't been changed to a booster. She's on average for height and weight for her age (5). It still sits properly on her. We had her in a booster with the normal seatbelt while we were away recently and the seatbelt didn't fit properly. Cut across her neck terribly. If the VicRoads thing is a recommendation, I reckon it will be a case by case scenario depending on the size of your child.

I think I have actually confused myself and possibly others following the thread - so I am just reposting the whole bit from VicRoads - the crucial bit I had missed first time about it only being about the non in-built harnesses

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A child safety harness is NOT an inbuilt harness: it is an additional product to purchase.

A child safety harness is attached to a child restraint anchorage point and is sometimes used with a booster seat or lap-only seatbelt.

Are child safety harnesses recommended?
No. A child safety harness is difficult to use and fit correctly and is commonly misused. Incorrect use of the child safety harness can cause the seatbelt to ride up into the child's stomach area, which may cause injury or death to a child in a crash.

Do not use a child safety harness where a lap-sash seatbelt is available. Research recommends using a child safety harness only in situations where it is not possible to replace your lap-only seatbelt with a lap-sash seatbelt.

If you are not able to replace your lap-only seatbelt with a lap-sash seatbelt you will need to use a child safety harness with a booster seat. In this case, it is recommended to use a booster seat with an anti-submarining feature to hold the lap part of the seatbelt down low on the child’s hips. Examples of anti-submarining features are displayed below.


If you must use a child safety harness, ensure that the shoulder straps are not too tight and that the lap part of the seatbelt is very low across the thighs, otherwise it may ride up into the child’s stomach area. This may cause serious injury or death to a child in a crash.

The harness must be checked for correct fit every time it is used.

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There are 5 things to look at to see if your child is big enough to fit in a lap slash, irregardless of age etc.. (Good things to look for when going from a 5pt harness to lap slash in a booster, or to moving out of a booster.)
They are:
1. Lap part actually sits on their lap
2. Slash bit goes across their torso and shoulder (doesn't cut into their neck)
3. Their knees reach the edge of the seat, so they bed naturally
4. Their back is against the vehicle seat.
5. They will sit still and remain in the seatbelt for the trip (not get out)

If they don't pass, keep them in a 5 point harness

I changed DS2 to booster as he was over 18kg and the maxirider said over 18kg could no longer use 5 point harnesss.

I'll be keeping dd in the 5 point harness as long as I can. She'll be 4 in October, but is quite small, so I should be able to pull it off for longer.

It was only a few years ago my 3/4 year old was sitting on the seat with just a lap sash belt & now I'm trying to keep dd in her booster til she's 10!

I've just put a post on the Britax page - we have the maxi-riders for both the girls and both are above 18kg - I just assumed while they were within the height of the 5 point harness that that would be the safest option... Oops.
I think we might be swapping them to the lap sash - I wont be buying the H Harness as I had also heard (and thanks for the reminder) that it was safer to just use the lap sash only with these boosters.

Both my girls where in them after outgrowing their 5 point harnesses, they would escape a normal seatbelt too easily. With ds the new boosters with higher shoulder slots for the 5 point harness he is still in it at almost 4, he should still be in it for a while as he still has one more slot to go much prefer that to the H harness.

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Both my girls where in them after outgrowing their 5 point harnesses, they would escape a normal seatbelt too easily. With ds the new boosters with higher shoulder slots for the 5 point harness he is still in it at almost 4, he should still be in it for a while as he still has one more slot to go much prefer that to the H harness.

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This is the bit I don't understand at all - nearly all convertible boosters I have seen have harness slots higher than the change to booster mark - but when I asked Infasecure this was the reply

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Me: Thanks, can you clear something up on the convertible booster is the change to booster just a guide or does it mean that once past the range of that mark you should definitely be changing to booster mode (irrelevant of age/weight).
2 hrs · Like

InfaSecure Hey Victoria! The marker is a guide, but we do recommend that it's followed. Our convertible booster 'change to booster' markers have gone up, recently, however, and are now at 45cm. Hope that helps!

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So what does that really mean - which is safer? (I suspect their answer would be buy a new convertible booster with the 45cm marker!). Also do I need to ask all the manufacturers for each individual seat the same question. Surely it should say somewhere what the 'change to booster' really means?

It would be great if there was a site you could put your little ones age, weight and height dimensions into and be given a range of seats and including how long you could use each. They say weight is not important now, but still many of the seats are only tested within certain weight ranges so surely can not be entirely discounted?

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I've just put a post on the Britax page - we have the maxi-riders for both the girls and both are above 18kg - I just assumed while they were within the height of the 5 point harness that that would be the safest option... Oops.
I think we might be swapping them to the lap sash - I wont be buying the H Harness as I had also heard (and thanks for the reminder) that it was safer to just use the lap sash only with these boosters.

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I wish had never looked into this - looking at Britax reply on your FB - I am loosing faith in any of the info out there. Infasecure have stopped selling their harness due to the VicRoads guidelines - but Britax seem to still be promoting their Protecta Harness - unless their is something special about theirs?

Feeling the same! I am trying to find info on the 5 point harness for our seat which is the safety 1st custodian as ds is 18.5kg. His shoulders aren't at the marker for the seat belt but he could be at the weight limit.

The protecta harness is what we have Vic. I bought the Boston Hipod, which I thought was a great bargain at only $129 or something and has the highest safety rating on the good old CREP website. And it says, in all their books and stuff, that you must use an additional harness. So I bought the protecta as well - and it's like $90. Not cheap. And now I find it's unsafe. Grr!

I need to look at the manual and see again what it says about the harness...

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The protecta harness is what we have Vic. I bought the Boston Hipod, which I thought was a great bargain at only $129 or something and has the highest safety rating on the good old CREP website. And it says, in all their books and stuff, that you must use an additional harness. So I bought the protecta as well - and it's like $90. Not cheap. And now I find it's unsafe. Grr!

I need to look at the manual and see again what it says about the harness...

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It is only actually unsafe if used incorrectly (but the chance of using it incorrectly would be pretty high for me)

This is the response I got from Britax

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"Hi Victoria, our research shows when the harness is used in conjunction with the lap sash belt it maximises the upper torso support as long as this is fitted each time using the manufacturers instructions. It can also prevent a child from falling out of the sash belt whilst they are sleeping, slumping or wriggling. Without torso support your child is at risk of being flung forward in a crash which can cause serious head, abdominal and spinal injuries"

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The bit in bold being key, I personally would rather after seeing the other evidence go with just the lap/sash belt on a booster because I would not be confident with fitting each time using manufacturers instructions. The above also puts me off Britax a little because they have not referred to the other evidence at all. I prefer the Infa approach of not recommending the harnesses unless have only lap belt.

Britax have replied to me also and stated that the model I have (no height based) is rated to 18kg for 5 point harness and 26kgs for booster.
So I really need to take the straps out and start using the seat belt for the girls, they are under the booster seat limit but at a guess DD1 will only get another 1 and a bit years out of the seat and DD2 is right behind her in weight so we may be looking at other options.

Yes I'm not confident fitting it myself let alone when others (ILs for example) do it. Might be time to remove it.

There is a definite gap in the market in Australia for a seat that has a 5 point harness with a weight limit over 18 kgs. There are options available overseas, but not here for some reason.

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There is a definite gap in the market in Australia for a seat that has a 5 point harness with a weight limit over 18 kgs. There are options available overseas, but not here for some reason.

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You see this is again confusing - the Infasecure Comfi Caprice - I have been told by Infasecure today has a change to Booster marker of 45cm which is pretty high, and that weight is completely irrelevant.

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Me - and the Caprice is there a weight it is tested to in each mode? Or you can completely ignore weight these days.


InfaSecure Hey Victoria, that's correct. Suitability is based entirely on the seated shoulder height of the child now

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So I don't know if that is true for all convertible boosters with the height markers but based on that I could in theory get DD (24kg) or DS (18kg) in it without it being in Booster Mode.

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You see this is again confusing - the Infasecure Comfi Caprice - I have been told by Infasecure today has a change to Booster marker of 45cm which is pretty high, and that weight is completely irrelevant.



So I don't know if that is true for all convertible boosters with the height markers but based on that I could in theory get DD (24kg) or DS (18kg) in it without it being in Booster Mode.

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It is also quite illogical that weights are now not mentioned at all, the seats and harnesses must be tested with dummies of particular weights - I can't see how weight can be completely irrelevant, and because no weights are now shown anywhere you can't easily check if a particular seat is one of the height is the only thing that matters seats or if weight comes into it.

It's very illogical to think that a seat on one day has a weight limit of 18kg, the same design with added markers has had all the weight references removed and all of a sudden it's meant to be safe even though kids come in all different heights and weights.

I was reading up and on the NeuRA site has an article about the shoulder height markers and it says

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“Shoulder height labels make choosing the right seat as simple as choosing the right shoe size,” says Dr Brown. “If they’re over the line, you move them into the next size and if they’re under, you stay in that same seat until next time.”

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So those shoulder markers have now come in, but nowhere does it say what the change to booster means - on the Neura site it says

6 months – at least 4
years
Until shoulders >2.5cm
above top harness slot

But the top harness slots are way above the change to booster mode. Now I don't know if this is because of the Protecta type harness which can fit into slots on this booster - is that why they have those slots - why have them if you are meant to have changed to a booster already.

The site also says

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“Parents have to wade through complex instructions involving weight, height and age to find the right seat for their child,” says Dr Brown. “It’s no wonder they sometimes get it wrong.”

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I am not convinced using the height markers only has really helped, I do think they make it easier to see when a child is ready for or has outgrown their seat but in terms of choosing one the elimination of the weight I think has made more confusing for children who are taller/heavier than the average.

I know that in the safe and sound seat we used to have, the 5 point harness was only safe up until 18kgs. Has that changed? Are they only going by height now? That seems crazy to me. As soon as I found out about the 18kg limit, I took ds (I think he was around 21kgs at the time) straight out of it. He would have only been 3 or 4 years old though?

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I know that in the safe and sound seat we used to have, the 5 point harness was only safe up until 18kgs. Has that changed? Are they only going by height now? That seems crazy to me. As soon as I found out about the 18kg limit, I took ds (I think he was around 21kgs at the time) straight out of it. He would have only been 3 or 4 years old though?

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I really don't know anymore Ginger - this is from the ACRI site the FAQ section- the quotes contradict themselves in my opinion - see bold sections -

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Q: What does a harness mean?
A Harness is a safety restraint constructed from belt webbing / straps. There are a number of styles.

Integral Harness.

A '5 or 6 point Safety Harness' is constructed into an infant / child restraint offering two upper body / shoulder straps, crotch and hip level straps, usually connecting at the front using a buckle.

Additional Harness.

One type often called 'Child Safety Harness', also known as an 'H' Harness is an additional device that is used with a seat belt at the lap area. It needs to be connected to a child restraint anchorage as well. NB: Be careful in using this product. See adjustment Q below!

A 'Protecta' harness is a more recent development of this theme which works similarly to a 'H' harness except that the adjustment is in front of the child, secured under a cover. ( Benefit: More likely to fit where the anchor is very close to the car seat back. i.e.; 'short hook up' situations)

Additionally, there may be a circumstance where using it through the slots in the later model Safe n Sound 'Maxi Rider' or Hi Liner Boosters and other similar products may offer an advantage. NB: Be careful in using this product, you need to take time in getting any harness adjusted correctly. See adjustment Q below!


Q: What is the correct adjustment of my additional harness? (ie: Not applicable for integral harness, only for 'H' or Protecta Harness applications)
Firstly, adjust the lap seat belt section as tight and comfortable as possible, and secondly, remove all slack or looseness from the upper tether strap adjuster second. NB: Do not stretch the seat belt up away from the hips or thighs with this adjustment.
No slack, looseness or twists in any of the straps or belts.

Q: When should my children use a harness?
Children should always have upper body restraint. Discussions about harness use can be confusing. So first check the previous two answers above:

While a child can remain using a restraint system which has an integral harness they should remain in it. (NB: Currently all integral harness systems are limited to 18Kgs. Do not be confused by multi use child restraint/booster products. The integral harnesses stated safe use limit is 18Kgs.

The belief that additional harnesses should be used after this point once served our community better, when our vehicles were simpler and lap only seat belts were more prevalent. Many of today's modern vehicles don't allow the easy, safe use of additional harness systems.
The belief that 'a product', in this case an additional harness, is safer than any other product or practice is often misleading. Using these products safely is reliant on the correct adjustment and daily use. To instal and then expect this product to provide an on going safe environment is unrealistic. Users of Harness systems must be able to understand, install and / or adjust them appropriately as required, and only then can they be considered a safe option.

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Then later on it says

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b. Child Restraints

Child restraints are forward facing 'child seats' or 'car seats' which are secured to the vehicle and also come in two types. Both types incorporate a '6 point' harness system that secures the child.

1.
Dedicated 'Single purpose child restraints' these have been come less available over the years as the convertible choices have expanded: (These have been available for toddler use up to 18Kgs for many years, but any 'Post 2010' Australian Standard compliant product is lmited by height marker only.)

Products in this category are and or have included the Toddler Rider, Cosi, Series 3, Maxi Cosi 'Complete Air' and Discovery plus.

2.
Combination child restraints: (ie: A toddler car seat with integral (built in) harness which can be converted at a later stage to be used as a booster seat with which the older child can use the vehicles seat belt. (NB: Post 2010 Aust Standard product is height marker only limited)

Eg's: Maxi Rider, Exeed, Swish air, Explorer. to name a few. (NB: Vehicle compatibility clarification is necessary to determine suitability of employing an additional harness system for booster stage use).

Combination types have been available for toddler use up to 18Kgs and older child 26Kgs for many years, but any 'Post 2010' Australian Standard compliant product is lmited by height marker only). NB: This type of booster must be anchored at all times.

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So in one part it says integral harness only rated to 18kg, then it says later on is limited by height marker only.

I have no idea - I currently have an 24kg DD in a convertible but not in booster mode (so wearing the integral harness) and can find no clear guidelines whether she is safer in this mode or booster mode. I also have an 18.2kg DS in an Compaq Deluxe which he is clearly too big for. So I am definitely one of the 80% with incorrectly restrained children. DS - I was aware I needed to change and that is what started all these investigations.

I mean I can ask companies on FB and post in FB groups but really it shouldn't have to be like that - it should be clear for a child of a particular, age, weight, and height what are the most appropriate restraints. Why is there not a table somewhere which lists the change to booster heights on all the different seats (if indeed I can go by height alone) - why not make it easier for people (is no wonder children are moved to boosters earlier than necessary because the situation is so confusing - manufacturers recommend you follow the switch guidelines (but you can find info saying they have been checked to the highest harness marker, as well as info saying harnesses have been checked up to 32kg).

I got a reply from ACRI

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Hi Victoria,
Thankyou for your feedback. This section definitely requires a re-edit so it’s up to date others and does not promote further confusion. I do not understand how this has been missed but we will rectify it today.

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So I think this answers - the weight limit on an integral harness part - if you have a seat with height markers on it - then the integral harness is not weight restricted (so all the new seats - new standard from 2010). If no height markers, then is probably best to contact the manufacturer (as ZF did) to check.

(There must be some weight restriction on the integral harness though determined by what they test to which is probably about 32kg - so I am still of the opinion that the guidelines are not clear enough).

Are you sure that the 5 point harness is tested to 32kgs though? I would want to know that for sure, iykwim? So confusing! I'll pm you what I ended up buying if you like?

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Are you sure that the 5 point harness is tested to 32kgs though? I would want to know that for sure, iykwim? So confusing! I'll pm you what I ended up buying if you like?

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The Infa models yes am sure - although is not on their website - but apart from that not really sure - I just keep getting told weight is irrelevant (even 32kg plus) if you follow the height markers - (having a long conversation about it on an FB group)

TBH - I know exactly what I am going to get, but I am just really quite horrified at the lack of clear information out there. I don't start my new job for a week or so, and I do like a good research project so have been digging into it - but not everyone has time to do that (I never have done before). I will probably do a thread of my findings soon - at least the ACRI are updating their FAQ based on my feedback so I have achieved something.

Great idea to start a thread on it :) put the info out there so everyone else doesn't have to go through hours of research.

Here it is:

Info on convertible boosters