Do you use an "H" harness with your booster?

**black_rose** · May 6th, 2014, 01:05 PM

Feeling the same! I am trying to find info on the 5 point harness for our seat which is the safety 1st custodian as ds is 18.5kg. His shoulders aren't at the marker for the seat belt but he could be at the weight limit.

**OceanPrincess** · May 6th, 2014, 02:02 PM

The protecta harness is what we have Vic. I bought the Boston Hipod, which I thought was a great bargain at only $129 or something and has the highest safety rating on the good old CREP website. And it says, in all their books and stuff, that you must use an additional harness. So I bought the protecta as well - and it's like $90. Not cheap. And now I find it's unsafe. Grr!

I need to look at the manual and see again what it says about the harness...

**wysiwyg** · May 6th, 2014, 02:24 PM

The protecta harness is what we have Vic. I bought the Boston Hipod, which I thought was a great bargain at only $129 or something and has the highest safety rating on the good old CREP website. And it says, in all their books and stuff, that you must use an additional harness. So I bought the protecta as well - and it's like $90. Not cheap. And now I find it's unsafe. Grr!

I need to look at the manual and see again what it says about the harness...

It is only actually unsafe if used incorrectly (but the chance of using it incorrectly would be pretty high for me)

This is the response I got from Britax

"Hi Victoria, our research shows when the harness is used in conjunction with the lap sash belt it maximises the upper torso support as long as this is fitted each time using the manufacturers instructions. It can also prevent a child from falling out of the sash belt whilst they are sleeping, slumping or wriggling. Without torso support your child is at risk of being flung forward in a crash which can cause serious head, abdominal and spinal injuries"

The bit in bold being key, I personally would rather after seeing the other evidence go with just the lap/sash belt on a booster because I would not be confident with fitting each time using manufacturers instructions. The above also puts me off Britax a little because they have not referred to the other evidence at all. I prefer the Infa approach of not recommending the harnesses unless have only lap belt.

**~ Zarava Flutterby ~** · May 6th, 2014, 02:37 PM

Britax have replied to me also and stated that the model I have (no height based) is rated to 18kg for 5 point harness and 26kgs for booster.
So I really need to take the straps out and start using the seat belt for the girls, they are under the booster seat limit but at a guess DD1 will only get another 1 and a bit years out of the seat and DD2 is right behind her in weight so we may be looking at other options.

**OceanPrincess** · May 6th, 2014, 03:17 PM

Yes I'm not confident fitting it myself let alone when others (ILs for example) do it. Might be time to remove it.

**Ginger** · May 6th, 2014, 06:39 PM

There is a definite gap in the market in Australia for a seat that has a 5 point harness with a weight limit over 18 kgs. There are options available overseas, but not here for some reason.

**wysiwyg** · May 6th, 2014, 07:03 PM

There is a definite gap in the market in Australia for a seat that has a 5 point harness with a weight limit over 18 kgs. There are options available overseas, but not here for some reason.

You see this is again confusing - the Infasecure Comfi Caprice - I have been told by Infasecure today has a change to Booster marker of 45cm which is pretty high, and that weight is completely irrelevant.

Me - and the Caprice is there a weight it is tested to in each mode? Or you can completely ignore weight these days.

InfaSecure Hey Victoria, that's correct. Suitability is based entirely on the seated shoulder height of the child now

So I don't know if that is true for all convertible boosters with the height markers but based on that I could in theory get DD (24kg) or DS (18kg) in it without it being in Booster Mode.

**wysiwyg** · May 6th, 2014, 08:02 PM

You see this is again confusing - the Infasecure Comfi Caprice - I have been told by Infasecure today has a change to Booster marker of 45cm which is pretty high, and that weight is completely irrelevant.

So I don't know if that is true for all convertible boosters with the height markers but based on that I could in theory get DD (24kg) or DS (18kg) in it without it being in Booster Mode.

It is also quite illogical that weights are now not mentioned at all, the seats and harnesses must be tested with dummies of particular weights - I can't see how weight can be completely irrelevant, and because no weights are now shown anywhere you can't easily check if a particular seat is one of the height is the only thing that matters seats or if weight comes into it.

**black_rose** · May 6th, 2014, 08:29 PM

It's very illogical to think that a seat on one day has a weight limit of 18kg, the same design with added markers has had all the weight references removed and all of a sudden it's meant to be safe even though kids come in all different heights and weights.

**wysiwyg** · May 6th, 2014, 08:50 PM

I was reading up and on the NeuRA site has an article about the shoulder height markers and it says

“Shoulder height labels make choosing the right seat as simple as choosing the right shoe size,” says Dr Brown. “If they’re over the line, you move them into the next size and if they’re under, you stay in that same seat until next time.”

So those shoulder markers have now come in, but nowhere does it say what the change to booster means - on the Neura site it says

6 months – at least 4
years
Until shoulders >2.5cm
above top harness slot

But the top harness slots are way above the change to booster mode. Now I don't know if this is because of the Protecta type harness which can fit into slots on this booster - is that why they have those slots - why have them if you are meant to have changed to a booster already.

The site also says

“Parents have to wade through complex instructions involving weight, height and age to find the right seat for their child,” says Dr Brown. “It’s no wonder they sometimes get it wrong.”

I am not convinced using the height markers only has really helped, I do think they make it easier to see when a child is ready for or has outgrown their seat but in terms of choosing one the elimination of the weight I think has made more confusing for children who are taller/heavier than the average.

**Ginger** · May 7th, 2014, 09:14 AM

I know that in the safe and sound seat we used to have, the 5 point harness was only safe up until 18kgs. Has that changed? Are they only going by height now? That seems crazy to me. As soon as I found out about the 18kg limit, I took ds (I think he was around 21kgs at the time) straight out of it. He would have only been 3 or 4 years old though?

**wysiwyg** · May 7th, 2014, 09:44 AM

I know that in the safe and sound seat we used to have, the 5 point harness was only safe up until 18kgs. Has that changed? Are they only going by height now? That seems crazy to me. As soon as I found out about the 18kg limit, I took ds (I think he was around 21kgs at the time) straight out of it. He would have only been 3 or 4 years old though?

I really don't know anymore Ginger - this is from the ACRI site the FAQ section- the quotes contradict themselves in my opinion - see bold sections -

Q: What does a harness mean?
A Harness is a safety restraint constructed from belt webbing / straps. There are a number of styles.

Integral Harness.

A '5 or 6 point Safety Harness' is constructed into an infant / child restraint offering two upper body / shoulder straps, crotch and hip level straps, usually connecting at the front using a buckle.

Additional Harness.

One type often called 'Child Safety Harness', also known as an 'H' Harness is an additional device that is used with a seat belt at the lap area. It needs to be connected to a child restraint anchorage as well. NB: Be careful in using this product. See adjustment Q below!

A 'Protecta' harness is a more recent development of this theme which works similarly to a 'H' harness except that the adjustment is in front of the child, secured under a cover. ( Benefit: More likely to fit where the anchor is very close to the car seat back. i.e.; 'short hook up' situations)

Additionally, there may be a circumstance where using it through the slots in the later model Safe n Sound 'Maxi Rider' or Hi Liner Boosters and other similar products may offer an advantage. NB: Be careful in using this product, you need to take time in getting any harness adjusted correctly. See adjustment Q below!

Q: What is the correct adjustment of my additional harness? (ie: Not applicable for integral harness, only for 'H' or Protecta Harness applications)
Firstly, adjust the lap seat belt section as tight and comfortable as possible, and secondly, remove all slack or looseness from the upper tether strap adjuster second. NB: Do not stretch the seat belt up away from the hips or thighs with this adjustment.
No slack, looseness or twists in any of the straps or belts.

Q: When should my children use a harness?
Children should always have upper body restraint. Discussions about harness use can be confusing. So first check the previous two answers above:

While a child can remain using a restraint system which has an integral harness they should remain in it. (NB: Currently all integral harness systems are limited to 18Kgs. Do not be confused by multi use child restraint/booster products. The integral harnesses stated safe use limit is 18Kgs.

The belief that additional harnesses should be used after this point once served our community better, when our vehicles were simpler and lap only seat belts were more prevalent. Many of today's modern vehicles don't allow the easy, safe use of additional harness systems.
The belief that 'a product', in this case an additional harness, is safer than any other product or practice is often misleading. Using these products safely is reliant on the correct adjustment and daily use. To instal and then expect this product to provide an on going safe environment is unrealistic. Users of Harness systems must be able to understand, install and / or adjust them appropriately as required, and only then can they be considered a safe option.

Then later on it says

b. Child Restraints

Child restraints are forward facing 'child seats' or 'car seats' which are secured to the vehicle and also come in two types. Both types incorporate a '6 point' harness system that secures the child.

1.
Dedicated 'Single purpose child restraints' these have been come less available over the years as the convertible choices have expanded: (These have been available for toddler use up to 18Kgs for many years, but any 'Post 2010' Australian Standard compliant product is lmited by height marker only.)

Products in this category are and or have included the Toddler Rider, Cosi, Series 3, Maxi Cosi 'Complete Air' and Discovery plus.

2.
Combination child restraints: (ie: A toddler car seat with integral (built in) harness which can be converted at a later stage to be used as a booster seat with which the older child can use the vehicles seat belt. (NB: Post 2010 Aust Standard product is height marker only limited)

Eg's: Maxi Rider, Exeed, Swish air, Explorer. to name a few. (NB: Vehicle compatibility clarification is necessary to determine suitability of employing an additional harness system for booster stage use).

Combination types have been available for toddler use up to 18Kgs and older child 26Kgs for many years, but any 'Post 2010' Australian Standard compliant product is lmited by height marker only). NB: This type of booster must be anchored at all times.

So in one part it says integral harness only rated to 18kg, then it says later on is limited by height marker only.

I have no idea - I currently have an 24kg DD in a convertible but not in booster mode (so wearing the integral harness) and can find no clear guidelines whether she is safer in this mode or booster mode. I also have an 18.2kg DS in an Compaq Deluxe which he is clearly too big for. So I am definitely one of the 80% with incorrectly restrained children. DS - I was aware I needed to change and that is what started all these investigations.

I mean I can ask companies on FB and post in FB groups but really it shouldn't have to be like that - it should be clear for a child of a particular, age, weight, and height what are the most appropriate restraints. Why is there not a table somewhere which lists the change to booster heights on all the different seats (if indeed I can go by height alone) - why not make it easier for people (is no wonder children are moved to boosters earlier than necessary because the situation is so confusing - manufacturers recommend you follow the switch guidelines (but you can find info saying they have been checked to the highest harness marker, as well as info saying harnesses have been checked up to 32kg).

**wysiwyg** · May 7th, 2014, 10:40 AM

I got a reply from ACRI

Hi Victoria,
Thankyou for your feedback. This section definitely requires a re-edit so it’s up to date others and does not promote further confusion. I do not understand how this has been missed but we will rectify it today.

So I think this answers - the weight limit on an integral harness part - if you have a seat with height markers on it - then the integral harness is not weight restricted (so all the new seats - new standard from 2010). If no height markers, then is probably best to contact the manufacturer (as ZF did) to check.

(There must be some weight restriction on the integral harness though determined by what they test to which is probably about 32kg - so I am still of the opinion that the guidelines are not clear enough).

**Ginger** · May 7th, 2014, 02:00 PM

Are you sure that the 5 point harness is tested to 32kgs though? I would want to know that for sure, iykwim? So confusing! I'll pm you what I ended up buying if you like?

**wysiwyg** · May 7th, 2014, 02:14 PM

Are you sure that the 5 point harness is tested to 32kgs though? I would want to know that for sure, iykwim? So confusing! I'll pm you what I ended up buying if you like?

The Infa models yes am sure - although is not on their website - but apart from that not really sure - I just keep getting told weight is irrelevant (even 32kg plus) if you follow the height markers - (having a long conversation about it on an FB group)

TBH - I know exactly what I am going to get, but I am just really quite horrified at the lack of clear information out there. I don't start my new job for a week or so, and I do like a good research project so have been digging into it - but not everyone has time to do that (I never have done before). I will probably do a thread of my findings soon - at least the ACRI are updating their FAQ based on my feedback so I have achieved something.