MCHN to get training in controlled crying

Forwarding on an email I received. It's actually proven co-sleeping does the same thing, but they never train MCHN's on safe co-sleeping stuff do they!!! I think the main problem is lack of support for mothers and they have become so isolated that they have less help and hands to hold the baby for a break and are losing out on skills being passed down from family members and seeing it as an everyday event - like once when families lived together and shared skills etc. Oh and whats with the 'controlled comforting' not 'controlled crying?' Same bloody thing!!! LOL - AND Marisa too sleeps through the night for 10-12 hours a night which she did some time from 2yrs when she also started asking to go to bed - funny these studies...

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Article in "The Age"

You might be moved to write to a politician. It's an election campaign, they are sensitive

steve.bracks@parliament.vic.gov.au Premier
bronwyn.pike@parliament.vic.gov.au Health
sherryl.garbutt@parliament.vic.gov.au Minister of the Office of Children
gill.callister@dhs.vic.gov.au EO of the Department of Human Services

Also, your local minister, ask them to get a response from their collegues

THE miracle of birth can quickly become the misery of sleep deprivation and depression for many new mothers.

But Melbourne researchers taking part in a world-first study have found postnatal depression can be dramatically reduced by teaching parents techniques to settle restless babies.

The study of 300 Victorian families who had babies with sleeping disorders found that after interventions by specially trained nurses, mothers were 41 per cent less likely to suffer depressive symptoms than those with no intervention.

Babies given sleep management plans at eight months were 41 per cent less likely s to have sleeping problems at 10 months.

When the babies reached two years old, their mothers were 59 per cent less likely to have depressive symptoms.

Training will now be provided for 200 maternal and child health nurses to teach the techniques across Victoria, the state Minister for Children, Sherryl Garbutt, announced yesterday.

Study author Harriet His****, a pediatrician from the Murdoch Children's Research Institute at the Royal Children's Hospital, said about 45 per cent of Australian babies aged six to 12 months had sleep problems and one in seven women experienced postnatal depression.

"Sleep deprivation can be akin to torture. You can feel, as a mum, that you can function only on automatic pilot. It can feel relentless — 24 hours a day, seven days a week," Dr His**** said. "If you've got a baby with a sleep problem, your levels of depression symptoms are often a lot higher."

Parents of sleepless babies were shown how to replace triggers for sleep such as rocking, driving around the block or using dummies with "controlled comforting" or "camping out".

Results were seen within two weeks.

"Controlled comforting, which used to be known as controlled crying, is for babies over six months," Dr His**** said.

"If you know that they're well fed and have a clean nappy, you put them into their cot awake and, if they cry, you wait increasing time intervals before going back to resettle them — two minutes the first night, then four the next and so on.

"Within a week, they should be learning to put themselves to sleep, rather than their mother or father doing it for them."

With "camping out", the baby goes to bed in their cot and the parent lies in a camp bed beside it. Each night, the camp bed is moved away until eventually it is out of the room.

Emma Reiterer, a mother of two from Sandringham, participated in the study that began in 2004 and finished early this year.

She said of her son Nicholas, now three: "At eight months he was still waking probably two-hourly overnight and I also had a two-year-old who was waking.

"I wasn't depressed, but exhausted certainly. Now he'll sleep a good 12 hours through the night, which is fantastic."

Sleep interventions are designed for babies aged six to eight months.

Giulia Leaman, mother of eight-week-old Holly, is looking forward to her daughter being old enough to benefit from the sleep techniques.

"It will be useful … because if you're not getting enough sleep, you can't cope — you're just on auto pilot," she said.

HUSH, LITTLE BABY …SOURCE: HARRIET HIS****, MURDOCH CHILDREN'S RESEARCH INSTITUTE, ROYAL CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL

■Controlled comforting Once baby* is well fed and clean, put them in their cot. If they cry, wait two minutes before resettling them (try not to pick them up). Increase time between crying and resettling by two minutes each night until baby falls asleep independently.

■Camping out Lie in a camp bed close to the cot. Over two to three weeks, move the bed away until it is out of the room.

■Put baby to bed sleepy but awake, so the last thing they remember is being in their cot.

■Develop a bedtime routine.

■Remember, it takes babies 10 minutes, on average, to fall asleep. Grizzling is normal.

*Techniques for babies aged 6-8 months

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I really think it would be a step backwards actually, becuase if a Mum goes to her MCHN and gets this thrust upon her and it fails, it only compounds the problem doesn't it, let alone making that mother not want to go back to her MCHN if she feels that she is being pressured to do something that doesn't work for her. What they should be doing is teaching them ALL settling techniques so that if one method doesn't work, you can move on to the next and get the right support.

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Babies given sleep management plans at eight months were 41 per cent less likely s to have sleeping problems at 10 months.

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Interesting that they don't mention what happened to the other 59% of mothers ;)

Yep and polls have shown it was successful for 8% of mums in a short period, I think 2-4 weeks? But thats a pretty poor stat, especially given there are around 800 studies saying that leaving your baby to cry for extended periods is not good to varying degrees. They would be better off training MCHN as LC's (they arent as part of normal training), they should be training them in sleep cues to pass onto parents and then offering them ALL their options, starting with the 'no-cry' stuff first.

I think its so sad because it is given to the parents as the only option for problem sleepers too. And the push to do it before 6 months is crazy. I know they tried to encourage it with Matilda at 12 weeks....it was horrible.

I just bought Pinky's 'Sleeping like a baby' and also Elizabeth Pantley's "No Cry Sleep Solution" (can you tell I was getting desperate a few nights ago? LOL) Actually, I'm reading, not so much coz of sleep problems (we did have a few bad nights tho) but coz I'm still feeding him to sleep, and as much as a love it, I'm reaching the stage where I'd like daddy to be able to put him to bed for a change. hehe.

There is just NO need to leave a baby to cry, and even if it "works" it's unhealthy for the baby, AND the mum, and then you have to do it over and over again when the baby becomes unsettled due to teething, or developmental stages.

I spose it's a step that they're saying it's for over 6 months (altho its still too young). Makes my stomach go all knotty when I think of newborns being left to cry. And I read somewhere that a survey conducted showed that a very high percentage of new parents are unsure whether they should pickup their crying newborn! So they're trying to get hospitals to teach people that Yes you pick up a crying newborn. You aren't spoiling them.

My mum is reading these books with me, and I think she's seeing the light! :) Maybe I should donate a copy to the local MCHN. hehe.

Yeah Liz that study was done at the University of Queensland & it was saying that it was better for everyone to pick up the baby rather than let them cry but most new parents didn't know what to do.

It's funny ... I saw this the other day and was thinking about posting it in the forum. I can't believe CC is still being advocated as a settling technique for such young babies.

Now that I actually have a baby of my own, it's really just confirmed my belief that CC is not healthy and doesn't help anyone (mother or baby). William was a very unsettled baby at times and the crying was ear-splitting. I should add that it wasn't the usual grizzling before nodding off, but full blown screaming. He was pretty good at night but the days almost did me in. I had people telling me to let him cry but I couldn't get them to understand that this just didn't work with him and I would never do it anyway. I don't know how him working himself into some sort of emotional frenzy would solve a sleeping problem (because that was basically what it was).

Somehow, we managed during the days with lots of walking in the pram and rocking in the HAB and then eventually, William started going down for a little sleep in the morning and afternoon by himself with no prompting from me. He has been a different boy for the last month or so. I'm glad I held out and didn't let the pressure get to me on this issue because it really bothered me for a while.

Sorry to hijack the thread but this topic has just been so pertinent to my recent experience, I felt that I should comment further.

I think its a joke that they comment that it takes babies 10mins to settle with this routine - thats bull! I would go in and out for an hour or more and they told me I should keep going up to two hours - I really was angry about that. Thank god I stopped that quick smart and realised what they were preeching was not flawless or at all ideal.

OMG... just thinking about it makes me so sad & angry again. I remember the MCHN at the sleep school who didn't listen to me about laying Matilda flat & Matilda wound up vomitting everywhere... I went straight in & picked her up & cleaned her off & walked out. I told the MCHN to go away and that I wouldn't listen to her if she wouldn't listen to me.

I had a funny feeling that it was controlled crying they were being taught. I noticed they didn't actually say what it was on all the news stories.
The buggers.
Our new MCHN is pretty cool. She asked about Jenna's sleep at her 18m check up, and we said - "yeah - its not great". Her response was, well you're doing what you can, it wont last forever.
I think thats a good attitude. Our last MCHN and her helper had worked at Tweddle..... You can imagine what advice they gave us during out 8wo sleep mothers group chat. grrrrrr

I am one of those mothers who has a child that just won't sleep. I have tried so much stuff... including one-on-one advice from Pinky, and a 'day stay' at a sleep school when he was 8 weeks old.

Initially my son would not sleep/nap at all during the day - would be overtired and 'feral' during the evening... and would eventually fall asleep at midnight - then wake regularly during the night.

The sleep school was the best thing that I did because they taught me how to settle my child WITHOUT controlled crying. In fact, they were AGAINST CC. They also DIDN'T boohoo co-sleeping.

My son still spends a few hours each morning co-sleeping with us - purely because I am exhausted by 6am and don't have the energy to get up one more time. In previous months he has spent entire nights with us. But, in honesty, I don't want my son to sleep with my DH and I all night. I treasure the time I spend with my DH - alone. We are thinking of having another child, and 3-in-the-bed is not really romantic. Also, my husband thrashes about in bed - so when my son is in bed with us I am never really asleep as I am always keeping an eye on him. We have a doona - and I'm always paranoid that the doona will rise up to him. And if he's not covered, I'm paranoid that he's getting cold.

I have tried everything - music, swaddling, massage, co-sleeping, Braughers (sp), warm baths... to name a few. Due to sleep school training, I can now get him to sleep during the day (usually for short naps) - which makes him more relaxed in the evening - and he now goes down for his night sleep at 8pm. But he wakes every 2-4 hours.

I can completely understand how mothers could suffer PND from sleep deprivation that goes on for months (or possibly years!). I imagine it is worse for first time mothers like myself. You are told lots of things to try... and they just don't seem to work. I'm lucky that I am 38yo, have a wonderful husband who gives me 'time out' , have run a business for 13 years, can deal with stress and sleep deprivation. I'm not suffering from PND. But I would give anything to have 5 hours sleep!!

So on Monday I am going back to sleep school for a 5 day residential stay. They will be able to see my son "in action" and give us support and techniques to get him to settle - which is not crying. No doubt there are some sleep schools that still practice that method - but not the one that I have been. They do not believe in swaddling either.

I agree with Kelly that there is a LACK OF SUPPORT for mothers. Thus the reason that MCHN's should be trained in sleep settling. My idea is that there should be POST birth training (at the hospitals) - just as there are pre-natal classes. They should teach settling, first aid/CPR and feeding. I had no idea how to prepare food (how much, how to cook it, what to start with, how long...). I don't have a mother, and my MIL is overseas.

I'm older than most of the mothers in this forum... and you might be interested to know what I was given AS A BABY... back in the 60's - when I wouldn't sleep..... VALIUM. Yep, it's right there on my baby book. It was "one for mummy, one for baby".
So we should be glad that times have changed since then.

Jodie,

Yep and like I have said before, I think some babies are just that way as their little personalities say so. Marisa was just like that for a while, it was bloody hard and tough but she is the most amazing little girl now who does sleep. She also still has heaps of energy and get up and go, she'll be like me, trying to do a million things at once and wishing she had more daylight hours to do so. While it was bloody tiring and exhausting, I know its just her, and she'll be one amazing person later on. All babies have their own patterns and I think even though they are looked at as being 'difficult' which I think is wrong, its just who they are and part of who they will be. The things that make them difficult now will make them amazing as adults.

I agree with that Kelly...

I know my little boy is special. He has the most wicked personality. I was at mums group yesterday and all the babys were lying there all docile. And my son was giggling, and grabbing at toys, and trying to chew on the other kids hands & feet.

I know that one day he will sleep - but then he will start teething, and toilet training, and the stress of learning to drive!!!

I enjoy being a mother - more than I ever thought I would.
And I believe that Shaun not only looks like me... but also has my sleeping habits (insomniac). He just wants to pack as much into one day as he possibly can!

Jodie, Shaun sounds so much like Matilda. She just doesn't think that sleep is important. You are right one day he will sleep, then he won't and then he will again. We still have some weeks with minimal sleep... I guess thats why we decided to have number 2 when we did, may as well get all the lack of sleep over with in one hit before we get used to sleeping again. We have had a handful of nights where Matilda has slept through in the past 2 1/2 years. But we have devised coping strategies as we don't have family around either.

*hugs* and its fantastic that you have found somewhere that they don't advocate CC for settling.

Jodie - I've heard lately that at sleep schools like Tresillian, they don't do controlled crying for babies as young as 8 weeks old, which I was pleased to hear. Don't know at what age they kick into controlled comforting tho.

Tallon woke every 2-4 hours for 3 months (and a bit longer!) and I just thought that was normal?? We occassionally got a 4hr sleep out of him, but rarely. I think it's a common misconception that babies that young should have long sleeps. A friend of mine (childless btw) said 'isn't sleeping through the night a sign of a contented baby?" grrr.. I boiled inside all the way home. I don't think I've SEEN a more contented baby than Tallon, and so many people comment on his placid nature, coz he's always quietly chatting to me or happily exploring on the floor.

Valium baby here as well, even though I was born in the 70's, but my older siblings are 60's kids. I have sleep issues myself and I often wonder if it could do with being drugged as a kid.

I would just like to know when the nurses will be able to use this training, it can be hard enough getting in just to get bubs weighed. I would much rather see funding used to get more nurses.

I think there is a big focus on PND... and finding ways to avoid it.
I think a major cause of PND is sleep deprivation.
It takes weeks to get a return phone call from the sleep schools... over a month to get into a day stay.... and many months to get into residential stay.

Most new mums (like me) have no idea how to handle a baby - especially when they are difficult. But if you have multiple children you have to juggle so much more - and the sleep deprivation kicks in as well. I'm surprised that PND doesn't affect more than 1 in 7. Sometimes I'm surprised that woman go on to have more than one child :) (joking)

I know I was on valium for years... as my Dad went to court to stop giving it to me on his weekend visits. I can't even remember primary school. I refuse to take any sort of medication now. Although some people do need something to get them through. I have just learnt to deal with my problems head on over the years.

I was a 70's bubs, and we were the Phenergan generation ;)
Shane is a 60s bub, but I'm sure his mum wouldn't have given him Valium..... Doesn't that seem awful??

I have valium now for a neck spasm problem (not that I've been able to take them for the last 2.5y either being pregnant or breastfeeding) but they are a fabulous muscle relaxant. I gave some to my mum for her back problems, and she's too scared to take them!! But they are such a good, effective and helpful drug - shame they were abused in the 60's/70's and now have such a bad name.

I find it interesting that they say babies over 6 months that do not sleep for long periods have a "sleep problem" or "sleep disorder". I thought that was pretty normal!

To be told your baby has a sleep disorder sounds so ominous - and just adds to the pile of guilt that is already felt my mothers over every little thing. Plus it sounds like they are trying to medicalise something that really is just par for the course for many parents.

Parents need to be told that waking during the night is normal - my almost-4-year-old still does it and most nights ends up sleeping in our bed or on the floor in our room. Obviously he didn't get the memo that tells him he should be sleeping soundly for 12 hours in his own bed!

How can leaving a baby or child to cry themselves to sleep be right? I did try CC when Harry was 10 months old but, while it seemed to work at first in the long term it had no effect at all, and I think ended up just making him more insecure at night. Plus the heart-renching feeling of leaving your baby to cry...It just felt wrong to me.

OMG - did anyone see the episode on Neighbours where they did controlled crying on Charlie, and lo and behold, it worked in one night! grrrrrr at them for promoting CC in the first place, and then to have everybody so happy the next day coz it worked so quickly!

I actually have no expectations of my baby to sleep right through. Imagine feeling disappointed in yourself or your baby everytime he woke up? Admittedly it's very trying when you have those few nights where it's every 40 minutes or so, but usually it's just a phase, and they sleep a bit better again in a few days. By better I mean for at least a FEW hours. LOL.

I thought chemical/hormonal imbalances were a major cause for PND? I think we've been designed quite cleverly to deal with sleep deprivation.. especially through the night. Breastfeeding induces sleep in both mum and bub, and I think we interrupt that natural process by not having the baby with us in our beds. I personally couldn't co-sleep with such a littlie, but you'd often find me on the rocking chair asleep with baby on boob.

I think we create our own sleep deprivation by trying to maintain our old lifestyle/jobs etc and not cruising along giving our babies all the time they need. Tallon woke every 2-3 hours every night for 3 months.. and even now it can be every 3-4 hours. We didn't suffer too much sleep deprivation, and I didn't really sleep much through the day, coz I was washing nappies, and pottering about at home.

And OMG at all you drugged babies! I'll have to ask mum if I was on anything!

Liz I did see that episode of Neighbours and it irritated me to see a tv show promoting something like that.

I'm really disspointed to read that article.
I feel sorry for the Mums out there that will now have MCHN's pushing controlled comforting techniques on them, and even if it goes against what the mum wants, they are vulnerable and tired, so no doubt will be swayed.

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I thought chemical/hormonal imbalances were a major cause for PND?

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I'm not sure - that could be the case, but I can also safely say in my personal experience that sleep deprivation is what broke me in the first 3-6 months or so. Although I didn't have PND, I was absolutely 'out of it' and on the nights with barely any sleep, it would magnify my emotions/stress levels/anxiety the next day about 100 fold, so I was an irritable mess. So I can certainly see how it could lead to PND if these women are barely getting more than a couple of hours a night. I certainly know my body and mind do not cope with sleep deprivation at all.

GRRR @ the Neighbours episode as well... that is ridiculous, and very frustrating too...

I have just returned from 5 days at the sleep school.
My baby would only have 20 minute naps during the day, would not drink much milk during the day, would be overtired and angry in the evenings, and wake regularly during the night.

The centre that I went to did not advocate CC, but the methods were not a piece of cake either. I know that many of the BB mums would not "approve". But after 5 days, my baby is MUCH HAPPIER. He is having long naps during the day - and has not put up any arguements about going to sleep in the day - which was always a constant battle previously. He had some problems eating, and we were not sure why... but in the last 24 hours he has done some explosive poos and we now think he may have a bit of gastro.

My husband stayed with us in the centre, so we could support each other. The first night was the hardest. It would be obvious that to change a habit (in an adult or child) is going to be met with some reistance). You put your child in the cot, and as they cry. You stay with them, comfort them (without picking them up). You pat, soothe, and rock the child until they relax. The first time that took us an hour. And as always, he woke after 20 minutes. But over the following days, we rarely needed to pat him when going down. We would recognise his tired signs, put him in the cot awake, and he would be happy to drop off to sleep with his blanket & soft toy. He would wake after 30 minutes or so, and we would just pat & soothe and he would be back asleep within minutes, if not seconds! And after 1.5 hours sleep - he would be such a happy baby!!

The staff were very respectful of my ideas and requests. Although they gave me a routine that included a 12 hour sleep from 7pm to 7am, they were happy to help me with my ideas of just "extending" his current sleep blocks of 3 hours. I wasn't looking for a 12 hour miracle in one week. I was just hoping to get 5 hours sleep at some time. And little Shaun did that twice in the 4 nights he was there!

I have come away feeling more confident, more relaxed, and I think that a happy mummy makes a happy baby. (Just as a sleep deprived mummy could result in a sleep deprived baby!).

These schools are not for everyone... but I have absolutely no regrets about doing it.

Jodie that's great the sleep school worked for you, I don't think that anyone on here would disapprove of something that has helped you to be a happier, more confident mum.

You know my daughter is 18 months old and still wakes 2 hourly for a feed and even more when something is wrong, I don't have family etc close by as I moved to the country just before she was born, but you know I think CC is much more cruel then my sleep deprivation.

My daughter is a real handful since day one but I just think of it as her being assertive and good at communicating her needs which I think is an important trait. With all this CC and worrying about spoiling babies etc I wonder how responsible these things are for our lack of self-esteem when we grow up. I don't want to teach my baby that her feelings and needs don't count, she has no-way of understanding my needs yet so why impose them on her before she can understand?

That quote about the advice regarding vomiting is absolutely abhorrent, it really is. I tried sshing and patting my daughter in her cot, within a minute or two of putting her down and patting/shhing her she had worked herself into such a state she vomited her entire feed. Thats not attention seeking that is pure stress, you bet I'm not going to teach her that vomiting will get my attention because there is no way in hell I am going to let her get in such a state again. She simply wants to be with me, pure and simple she doesn't understand why I want time for myself, how can she?

I totally agree with the comment about putting much better use of funding towards more nurses. I tried once to make an appointment for my daughters 6 month check and I had to book 2 months ahead, I told them to forget it... I have seen a MCHN once when they came here when she was a couple of weeks old and thats it. From all the stories I have heard here I am glad!!!

When I had my son over a decade a go whilst I liked my mchn and saw her for anything and everything I also did everything she said despite how it felt to me. By 3 months my son was weaned on to formula and rice cereal (in night time bottle) then solids by 4 month, phenergren etc all in the desperate bid to stop my son waking 2 hourly because it is not normal(yeah right!). Sure he was sleeping better by 6 months but at what cost. He was always constipated and the nurse had me put him on prune juice... the poor kid was just dehydrated. When he was older say 3 yrs old I finally succumbered to everyones comments on my co-sleeping and did CC. Yeah it worked but it killed me inside and I am sure it did the same thing to him too.

If I could only turn back time!

There are many methods to get a child to sleep... and I don't like the idea of CC. But putting into perspective... CC is a very short term method to solve a long term problem. I would find it more cruel to have a sleep deprived child; or a mother that has PND or is too tired to be productive. There are other methods like co-sleeping... but at what cost sometimes? A child dependant an having someone sleep beside them, and possibly a breakdown of the relationship between parents? NOT that I am saying this has happened to anybody here... it is just a possibility.

I am an insomniac myself, and I have managed to go 5 months will no more than 3-4 hours at a time. But I could not see myself doing this for years! And my child would not eat well, and was tired. In a matter of a few days, I have seen an improvement in him getting those few extra hours sleep. He doesn't cry at all when I put him down. Both times I have posted today, my child has been placed in his cot, and gone to sleep within a minute without one whimper, let alone cry.

It was my MCHN that originally put me onto this sleep school, and I will be giving her a big thank you! There is help for people who want it. Whether it be sleeping, feeding or whatever issues are affecting one's child. I didn't want my child to suffer any longer.

Sherrie, this post is not in response to yours, and I fully respect and understand your decisions; and those of the many other women on this forum. My comments are to try and express another view and to let people know of the results I have had within a few days... without any vomiting or excessive crying from my child. But I don't think I could have done this bymyself or totally grasped the information from a book. The support and advice from the sleep school was invaluable - to me and my child.

A reminder this forum is for those who do practice infant-led/attachment/gentle methods; please read the forum guidelines. People who do CC dont like it when we try to say that we have a way that works for us and defend what we do, hence I created this place for infant-led parenters to do their thing. I dont think CC is needed to teach a baby how to sleep, its just as easy to learn sleep cues and follow them. Controlled Crying rarely works long term if you do your research into it.

The Con of Controlled Crying

The thing I don't like about CC is that it has to be done over and over again. At the next developmental stage, bub becomes unsettled, and the parents resort to leaving to cry again. It's very sad. Just when bub needs the reassurance, with teething, or just an unsettling week.. he/she is labelled as being difficult, and the whole CC process has to be done again. I've experience loads of unsettled periods with Tallon, and they do pass. Of course in the middle of them it gets difficult, but once it's passed I'm usually able to look back and understand what was wrong.. be it teeth, or he's learnt some new things (I found he was quite unsettled about the time he was learning to sit!! hehe) He still wakes through the night.. altho it's slowly improving again, but if he needs me, I'll be there for him.

I totally agree with "I don't want to teach my baby that her feelings and needs don't count, she has no-way of understanding my needs yet so why impose them on her before she can understand?"

I also wonder about the support that will go with the CC lessons. Are they just going to spend 10 minutes telling a mother about what to and leave her to it, or are they going to be their for her in the middle of the night when she has question and doubts. In my experience with the MCHN they just don't have the time to give more than the basic advice.

When Maggie was about 7 weeks old I received my last home visit from the council MCHN. A different one turned up that who had been visiting me (for feeding problems), she treated me like I was a waste of time, as the feeding issues had resolved since the last visit and then told me off for feeding her to sleep. She went on about rocking to sleep as well and do I want to be doing it when she is 7 kg (I was doing it at 7kg and she felt no heavier than at 4 as my muscles built up, they fail to take that into consideration with their scare tactics). She then proceeded to show me the 5s method (Happiest Baby on the Block?), but did not explain it, both DH and I thought she was assaulting our child as the "shaking" was quite severe. Poor Maggie was distressed but she continued to assault our child with the shaking and we thought her hearing would be damaged by the very loud shushing (louder than what I have ever used with her). Finally Maggie went to sleep, I think mostly in the hope that the awful woman would just go away. The MCHN finally left the house, she left me with no info on what to do, how I was to continue etc. We tried the method a couple more times, it only worked once, but we doubted it the whole time as we did not know the theory behind it. Finally I got to see the video on the method, so I then understood it, but I also realised that the MCHN was overly aggressive with it and was no doing it correctly herself. The sad thing is she really gave me no choice in the mather or even explained that there are different parenting methods, there was one method and it was hers.

So if that happened to me with the gentler method of 5s, what is going to happen with CC? It really saddens me to think about it.

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A reminder this forum is for those who do practice infant-led/attachment/gentle methods; please read the forum guidelines.

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kelly... can I clarify something... is the entire forum as per those methods... or the 'gentle parenting' part of the forum?

After your comment I wondered why you had made that statement.. and checked the forum guidelines and didn't see anything specifically about those methods...(the guidelines that are under the 'announcements' header). I'm not sure if there are more guidelines???

Then later it dawned on me...

I hit the "new posts" tab at the top, and read the headings of topics. If it is of interest to me, I read and add a comment. So I saw the heading (MCHN to get training...) and thought it was of interest as I was going to sleep school this week. At no point did I even notice it was within the sub-group of "comforted sleeping". After my initial post, I would hit the user profile tab and read the latest comments.

So... I always thought this post was a general topic...
To make it a general topic - open for general discussion I would have had to repeat the original post (made by kelly) - and post into the general parenting section, I guess (?:confused: )

There are 20,431 threads... and I don't go into each section to read each thread. That is why I like the "new posts" tab :) ... but in this instance, I would have thought that this topic was of 'general interest' as it is not advocating gentle parenting.

So... having said all that...
I appologise if I have offended anyone as I did not realise this thread was within the 'gentle parenting' section. As I have said before; I respect all methods of peoples parenting. It is their child, it is their choice. Each to their own. If this post had of been put into the 'general' section, it would have been good to get everyone's experiences. In future I will have to be more careful to see what section the posts are in, now that this has come to light...

Jodie that is great it worked so easily for you but it doesn't for a lot of babies but if thats all MCHNs focus on then what good is it for babies like mine and their mothers.

But you know it doesn't last forever, I think coping with this is all about your perspective. Once you stop fighting it and start seeing things through the child's eyes it gets a lot easier. I no longer fall asleep standing up, I just go to bed earlier. My daughter certainly isn't sufferring sleep deprivation as she is ahead of her milestones and at a very healthy weight with only two colds and baby measles and thats it (which all came at the start of teething a molar), pretty good for 18 months. My son who slept through had numerous colds, gastro etc... by that time.

To me my daughter has good survival instincts, she is teaching me what is normal not the other way around. Well thats how I look at it.

Astrid with the shaking etc... you know those merry go round things you used to see in playgrounds where people would spin it really fast? thats what it reminds me of hehe