Forwarding on an email I received. It's actually proven co-sleeping does the same thing, but they never train MCHN's on safe co-sleeping stuff do they!!! I think the main problem is lack of support for mothers and they have become so isolated that they have less help and hands to hold the baby for a break and are losing out on skills being passed down from family members and seeing it as an everyday event - like once when families lived together and shared skills etc. Oh and whats with the 'controlled comforting' not 'controlled crying?' Same bloody thing!!! LOL - AND Marisa too sleeps through the night for 10-12 hours a night which she did some time from 2yrs when she also started asking to go to bed - funny these studies...
Article in "The Age"
You might be moved to write to a politician. It's an election campaign, they are sensitive
Also, your local minister, ask them to get a response from their collegues
THE miracle of birth can quickly become the misery of sleep deprivation and depression for many new mothers.
But Melbourne researchers taking part in a world-first study have found postnatal depression can be dramatically reduced by teaching parents techniques to settle restless babies.
The study of 300 Victorian families who had babies with sleeping disorders found that after interventions by specially trained nurses, mothers were 41 per cent less likely to suffer depressive symptoms than those with no intervention.
Babies given sleep management plans at eight months were 41 per cent less likely s to have sleeping problems at 10 months.
When the babies reached two years old, their mothers were 59 per cent less likely to have depressive symptoms.
Training will now be provided for 200 maternal and child health nurses to teach the techniques across Victoria, the state Minister for Children, Sherryl Garbutt, announced yesterday.
Study author Harriet His****, a pediatrician from the Murdoch Children's Research Institute at the Royal Children's Hospital, said about 45 per cent of Australian babies aged six to 12 months had sleep problems and one in seven women experienced postnatal depression.
"Sleep deprivation can be akin to torture. You can feel, as a mum, that you can function only on automatic pilot. It can feel relentless — 24 hours a day, seven days a week," Dr His**** said. "If you've got a baby with a sleep problem, your levels of depression symptoms are often a lot higher."
Parents of sleepless babies were shown how to replace triggers for sleep such as rocking, driving around the block or using dummies with "controlled comforting" or "camping out".
Results were seen within two weeks.
"Controlled comforting, which used to be known as controlled crying, is for babies over six months," Dr His**** said.
"If you know that they're well fed and have a clean nappy, you put them into their cot awake and, if they cry, you wait increasing time intervals before going back to resettle them — two minutes the first night, then four the next and so on.
"Within a week, they should be learning to put themselves to sleep, rather than their mother or father doing it for them."
With "camping out", the baby goes to bed in their cot and the parent lies in a camp bed beside it. Each night, the camp bed is moved away until eventually it is out of the room.
Emma Reiterer, a mother of two from Sandringham, participated in the study that began in 2004 and finished early this year.
She said of her son Nicholas, now three: "At eight months he was still waking probably two-hourly overnight and I also had a two-year-old who was waking.
"I wasn't depressed, but exhausted certainly. Now he'll sleep a good 12 hours through the night, which is fantastic."
Sleep interventions are designed for babies aged six to eight months.
Giulia Leaman, mother of eight-week-old Holly, is looking forward to her daughter being old enough to benefit from the sleep techniques.
"It will be useful … because if you're not getting enough sleep, you can't cope — you're just on auto pilot," she said.
HUSH, LITTLE BABY …SOURCE: HARRIET HIS****, MURDOCH CHILDREN'S RESEARCH INSTITUTE, ROYAL CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL
■Controlled comforting Once baby* is well fed and clean, put them in their cot. If they cry, wait two minutes before resettling them (try not to pick them up). Increase time between crying and resettling by two minutes each night until baby falls asleep independently.
■Camping out Lie in a camp bed close to the cot. Over two to three weeks, move the bed away until it is out of the room.
■Put baby to bed sleepy but awake, so the last thing they remember is being in their cot.
■Develop a bedtime routine.
■Remember, it takes babies 10 minutes, on average, to fall asleep. Grizzling is normal.
*Techniques for babies aged 6-8 months
Last edited by BellyBelly; November 2nd, 2006 at 08:15 AM.
I really think it would be a step backwards actually, becuase if a Mum goes to her MCHN and gets this thrust upon her and it fails, it only compounds the problem doesn't it, let alone making that mother not want to go back to her MCHN if she feels that she is being pressured to do something that doesn't work for her. What they should be doing is teaching them ALL settling techniques so that if one method doesn't work, you can move on to the next and get the right support.
Babies given sleep management plans at eight months were 41 per cent less likely s to have sleeping problems at 10 months.
Interesting that they don't mention what happened to the other 59% of mothers
Yep and polls have shown it was successful for 8% of mums in a short period, I think 2-4 weeks? But thats a pretty poor stat, especially given there are around 800 studies saying that leaving your baby to cry for extended periods is not good to varying degrees. They would be better off training MCHN as LC's (they arent as part of normal training), they should be training them in sleep cues to pass onto parents and then offering them ALL their options, starting with the 'no-cry' stuff first.
I think its so sad because it is given to the parents as the only option for problem sleepers too. And the push to do it before 6 months is crazy. I know they tried to encourage it with Matilda at 12 weeks....it was horrible.
I just bought Pinky's 'Sleeping like a baby' and also Elizabeth Pantley's "No Cry Sleep Solution" (can you tell I was getting desperate a few nights ago? LOL) Actually, I'm reading, not so much coz of sleep problems (we did have a few bad nights tho) but coz I'm still feeding him to sleep, and as much as a love it, I'm reaching the stage where I'd like daddy to be able to put him to bed for a change. hehe.
There is just NO need to leave a baby to cry, and even if it "works" it's unhealthy for the baby, AND the mum, and then you have to do it over and over again when the baby becomes unsettled due to teething, or developmental stages.
I spose it's a step that they're saying it's for over 6 months (altho its still too young). Makes my stomach go all knotty when I think of newborns being left to cry. And I read somewhere that a survey conducted showed that a very high percentage of new parents are unsure whether they should pickup their crying newborn! So they're trying to get hospitals to teach people that Yes you pick up a crying newborn. You aren't spoiling them.
My mum is reading these books with me, and I think she's seeing the light! Maybe I should donate a copy to the local MCHN. hehe.
Yeah Liz that study was done at the University of Queensland & it was saying that it was better for everyone to pick up the baby rather than let them cry but most new parents didn't know what to do.
It's funny ... I saw this the other day and was thinking about posting it in the forum. I can't believe CC is still being advocated as a settling technique for such young babies.
Now that I actually have a baby of my own, it's really just confirmed my belief that CC is not healthy and doesn't help anyone (mother or baby). William was a very unsettled baby at times and the crying was ear-splitting. I should add that it wasn't the usual grizzling before nodding off, but full blown screaming. He was pretty good at night but the days almost did me in. I had people telling me to let him cry but I couldn't get them to understand that this just didn't work with him and I would never do it anyway. I don't know how him working himself into some sort of emotional frenzy would solve a sleeping problem (because that was basically what it was).
Somehow, we managed during the days with lots of walking in the pram and rocking in the HAB and then eventually, William started going down for a little sleep in the morning and afternoon by himself with no prompting from me. He has been a different boy for the last month or so. I'm glad I held out and didn't let the pressure get to me on this issue because it really bothered me for a while.
Sorry to hijack the thread but this topic has just been so pertinent to my recent experience, I felt that I should comment further.
Last edited by Melbo; November 2nd, 2006 at 10:33 AM.
I think its a joke that they comment that it takes babies 10mins to settle with this routine - thats bull! I would go in and out for an hour or more and they told me I should keep going up to two hours - I really was angry about that. Thank god I stopped that quick smart and realised what they were preeching was not flawless or at all ideal.
OMG... just thinking about it makes me so sad & angry again. I remember the MCHN at the sleep school who didn't listen to me about laying Matilda flat & Matilda wound up vomitting everywhere... I went straight in & picked her up & cleaned her off & walked out. I told the MCHN to go away and that I wouldn't listen to her if she wouldn't listen to me.
I had a funny feeling that it was controlled crying they were being taught. I noticed they didn't actually say what it was on all the news stories.
The buggers.
Our new MCHN is pretty cool. She asked about Jenna's sleep at her 18m check up, and we said - "yeah - its not great". Her response was, well you're doing what you can, it wont last forever.
I think thats a good attitude. Our last MCHN and her helper had worked at Tweddle..... You can imagine what advice they gave us during out 8wo sleep mothers group chat. grrrrrr
I am one of those mothers who has a child that just won't sleep. I have tried so much stuff... including one-on-one advice from Pinky, and a 'day stay' at a sleep school when he was 8 weeks old.
Initially my son would not sleep/nap at all during the day - would be overtired and 'feral' during the evening... and would eventually fall asleep at midnight - then wake regularly during the night.
The sleep school was the best thing that I did because they taught me how to settle my child WITHOUT controlled crying. In fact, they were AGAINST CC. They also DIDN'T boohoo co-sleeping.
My son still spends a few hours each morning co-sleeping with us - purely because I am exhausted by 6am and don't have the energy to get up one more time. In previous months he has spent entire nights with us. But, in honesty, I don't want my son to sleep with my DH and I all night. I treasure the time I spend with my DH - alone. We are thinking of having another child, and 3-in-the-bed is not really romantic. Also, my husband thrashes about in bed - so when my son is in bed with us I am never really asleep as I am always keeping an eye on him. We have a doona - and I'm always paranoid that the doona will rise up to him. And if he's not covered, I'm paranoid that he's getting cold.
I have tried everything - music, swaddling, massage, co-sleeping, Braughers (sp), warm baths... to name a few. Due to sleep school training, I can now get him to sleep during the day (usually for short naps) - which makes him more relaxed in the evening - and he now goes down for his night sleep at 8pm. But he wakes every 2-4 hours.
I can completely understand how mothers could suffer PND from sleep deprivation that goes on for months (or possibly years!). I imagine it is worse for first time mothers like myself. You are told lots of things to try... and they just don't seem to work. I'm lucky that I am 38yo, have a wonderful husband who gives me 'time out' , have run a business for 13 years, can deal with stress and sleep deprivation. I'm not suffering from PND. But I would give anything to have 5 hours sleep!!
So on Monday I am going back to sleep school for a 5 day residential stay. They will be able to see my son "in action" and give us support and techniques to get him to settle - which is not crying. No doubt there are some sleep schools that still practice that method - but not the one that I have been. They do not believe in swaddling either.
I agree with Kelly that there is a LACK OF SUPPORT for mothers. Thus the reason that MCHN's should be trained in sleep settling. My idea is that there should be POST birth training (at the hospitals) - just as there are pre-natal classes. They should teach settling, first aid/CPR and feeding. I had no idea how to prepare food (how much, how to cook it, what to start with, how long...). I don't have a mother, and my MIL is overseas.
I'm older than most of the mothers in this forum... and you might be interested to know what I was given AS A BABY... back in the 60's - when I wouldn't sleep..... VALIUM. Yep, it's right there on my baby book. It was "one for mummy, one for baby".
So we should be glad that times have changed since then.
Last edited by Jodie259; November 2nd, 2006 at 04:10 PM.
Yep and like I have said before, I think some babies are just that way as their little personalities say so. Marisa was just like that for a while, it was bloody hard and tough but she is the most amazing little girl now who does sleep. She also still has heaps of energy and get up and go, she'll be like me, trying to do a million things at once and wishing she had more daylight hours to do so. While it was bloody tiring and exhausting, I know its just her, and she'll be one amazing person later on. All babies have their own patterns and I think even though they are looked at as being 'difficult' which I think is wrong, its just who they are and part of who they will be. The things that make them difficult now will make them amazing as adults.
I know my little boy is special. He has the most wicked personality. I was at mums group yesterday and all the babys were lying there all docile. And my son was giggling, and grabbing at toys, and trying to chew on the other kids hands & feet.
I know that one day he will sleep - but then he will start teething, and toilet training, and the stress of learning to drive!!!
I enjoy being a mother - more than I ever thought I would.
And I believe that Shaun not only looks like me... but also has my sleeping habits (insomniac). He just wants to pack as much into one day as he possibly can!
Jodie, Shaun sounds so much like Matilda. She just doesn't think that sleep is important. You are right one day he will sleep, then he won't and then he will again. We still have some weeks with minimal sleep... I guess thats why we decided to have number 2 when we did, may as well get all the lack of sleep over with in one hit before we get used to sleeping again. We have had a handful of nights where Matilda has slept through in the past 2 1/2 years. But we have devised coping strategies as we don't have family around either.
*hugs* and its fantastic that you have found somewhere that they don't advocate CC for settling.
Jodie - I've heard lately that at sleep schools like Tresillian, they don't do controlled crying for babies as young as 8 weeks old, which I was pleased to hear. Don't know at what age they kick into controlled comforting tho.
Tallon woke every 2-4 hours for 3 months (and a bit longer!) and I just thought that was normal?? We occassionally got a 4hr sleep out of him, but rarely. I think it's a common misconception that babies that young should have long sleeps. A friend of mine (childless btw) said 'isn't sleeping through the night a sign of a contented baby?" grrr.. I boiled inside all the way home. I don't think I've SEEN a more contented baby than Tallon, and so many people comment on his placid nature, coz he's always quietly chatting to me or happily exploring on the floor.
Valium baby here as well, even though I was born in the 70's, but my older siblings are 60's kids. I have sleep issues myself and I often wonder if it could do with being drugged as a kid.
I would just like to know when the nurses will be able to use this training, it can be hard enough getting in just to get bubs weighed. I would much rather see funding used to get more nurses.
I think there is a big focus on PND... and finding ways to avoid it.
I think a major cause of PND is sleep deprivation.
It takes weeks to get a return phone call from the sleep schools... over a month to get into a day stay.... and many months to get into residential stay.
Most new mums (like me) have no idea how to handle a baby - especially when they are difficult. But if you have multiple children you have to juggle so much more - and the sleep deprivation kicks in as well. I'm surprised that PND doesn't affect more than 1 in 7. Sometimes I'm surprised that woman go on to have more than one child (joking)
I know I was on valium for years... as my Dad went to court to stop giving it to me on his weekend visits. I can't even remember primary school. I refuse to take any sort of medication now. Although some people do need something to get them through. I have just learnt to deal with my problems head on over the years.
I was a 70's bubs, and we were the Phenergan generation
Shane is a 60s bub, but I'm sure his mum wouldn't have given him Valium..... Doesn't that seem awful??
I have valium now for a neck spasm problem (not that I've been able to take them for the last 2.5y either being pregnant or breastfeeding) but they are a fabulous muscle relaxant. I gave some to my mum for her back problems, and she's too scared to take them!! But they are such a good, effective and helpful drug - shame they were abused in the 60's/70's and now have such a bad name.
MCHN to get training in controlled crying
Creator of BellyBelly.com.au, doula, writer and mother of three amazing children
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Maybe I should donate a copy to the local MCHN. hehe.
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