organ donation and your soul

for several years now my DH and I have been talking about organ donation and the connection to your soul.

i am a huge supporter of organ donation. i have been a registered donor for all my adult life as well as a blood donor (until i lived in the UK and am no longer eligible!). for me the gift of my organs/blood is something that would bring such joy and happiness to other families in the unhappy event of my death.

my DH is not a donor and does not wish to be a donor of either organs or blood. due to his strong spiritual beliefs (no particular religion although more along the lines of buddhism and christianity in their teachings) he believes a part of his soul would be lost and given to another being if his organs/bloody were given to another human. from what i can gather he believes that this would mean his soul would not be complete in heaven.

we have had many many long discussions on the topic. there are grey areas for him. when i ask would he want others to donate organs to say, for example, save my life he seems to be in agreement as he can't imagine what the outcome would be for me if i were ever in that situation. he also doesn't seem to have a strong position on whether to personally accept someone elses organs if they were ever needed. i think this is something he really struggles with. i want to know how he feels in case i am ever faced with a decision on the matter (something we continue to discuss).

i am not religious, but i believe strongly in the strength of the human spirit to have loving kindness, show compassion and give to others both human and other critters of the world. i believe there is a lot to be taken from the teachings of the world's great faiths, but i do not subscribe to any particular dogma. from my scientific training i look quite practically at the ability of modern science and medicine to help people live long and fulfilling lives with the gift of donation etc.

i suppose what i am hoping is if others have faced a similar impass with someone they love on something that is obviously so important to them and if you have any insights to help me better understand how my DH may see the issue.

dusty

Dusty, I too have no issues with donating or recieving organs in the case of my illness/death. I would be greatly appreciative of the organs if I were to recieve them to save my life. I do believe it is possible to feel something from the donor, maybe something of their spirit, as your DH seems to, but I don't think it would make them less whole in their death, kwim?

From where your DH stands, it seems to me that if he were to accept organs from a donor he would then be less of himself as he has discarded the dying organ and accepted one from another person, therefore taking a part of their soul/pesonality. Am I correct in how I have understood what you've said???

thanks for your perspective kellieem

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From where your DH stands, it seems to me that if he were to accept organs from a donor he would then be less of himself as he has discarded the dying organ and accepted one from another person, therefore taking a part of their soul/pesonality. Am I correct in how I have understood what you've said???

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this is a grey area in our conversation. my DH really struggles with the issues when we talk about them. i suppose in discussing these issues he really has to look deep into his beliefs and there are not always the answers there for him (and perhaps ones that he feels i may not understand or appreciate).
i know he prays to god about these and other things all the time looking for answers, guidance and understanding. he too is scientifically trained but balances the teachings and beliefs of both.

your question raises a point that i haven't really discussed with him, that being how it would affect his soul to have replaced his dying organ with someone else's.

thanks, this is something i was hoping to get from posting on this topic. sometimes i feel like we are swimming in different directions on this issue, but trying to get to the same destination. perhaps we are just in different currents which will eventually lead us to the same place.

dusty

There is a Chinese (Taoist? Buddhist?) concept that one must go whole to the grave and it is better to die now than to go incomplete later on - i know historically the royal eunuchs who rose to higher ranks (who had their penis and testicles surgically removed as young boys) would pay vast sums to find and aquire their genitals (usually kept by the surgeon for just such an outcome) so they could go to heaven whole.

Personally i feel nothing about my body after death. It will be an empty and broken vehicle, i will be done with it. Thus if i die i don't care what you do with me. Even the thought of canabalism doesn't perturb me - obviously being KILLED to be eaten is awful, but if i died of unrelated things, seriously, i don't care.

I am on the organ donor register for "anything of use" to be donated and my family and friends all know my wishes. And if i needed an organ and one was available, i would accept it. I would donate DD's organs if she died and if i was the next of kin for someone, unless they had expressly told me they didn't want it, i would grant permission.

Bx

I will be cremated in Bali & sent out to sea as in traditional Balinese Hindu fashion (DH's village is near the sea), so if anything is of use to anyone I would hope they'd use it, I & my entire family are all registered organ donors. I dont want or need anything once I have passed on & so no need to have it with me once dead!? I'd feel honoured to know a piece of me lived on in another!

But I have heard of ppl saying they cant imagine being buried etc without all their bits & pieces!???

Dusty I actually feel the same way as your DH, I can't put it into words why I feel this way but I do and have for a very long time, Jase doesn't care either way............

I can't explain how I would feel if I needed a transplant etc, as have never been in that situation.......so therefore cannot explain if my feelings would change

but for now and at least the majority of my adult life (32) I have felt this way all I can say is dont look down on your partner for what he beleives my family have finally excepted how I feel and I feel at peace with my beleifs now

Okay.....My dad had an extra 7 years to spend with us cause of a donor out there somewhere!! He had a heart transplant cause he had a rare heart disease called Cardiomyopathy. So you can guess that I am a donor and so is all of my family cause even though it was only 7 years it was better then the 3 months they were saying.

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but for now and at least the majority of my adult life (32) I have felt this way all I can say is dont look down on your partner for what he beleives my family have finally excepted how I feel and I feel at peace with my beleifs now

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rach thanks for sharing your beliefs. i can assure you i don't look down at my DH in any way, that is not how our r'ship works :) i know he is very spiritual and i want to best understand his beliefs but this is an area where we have had many discussions and we both struggle to best communicate how we feel and what we believe. DH calls the grey areas 'conundrums' and he freely admits he doesn't have all the answers and he really searches and prays to god about them. i question and challenge him on this issue (as he does with me on this and other issues) as i want to understand, and i guess i want him to make a really well informed and thought about decision and one that i know is his wish if ever it came to that. being the next-of-kin for the first time is a responsibility i take really seriously.

i totally accept and respect the spiritual part of his life - after all it is probably what makes him the most wonderful gorgeous caring man that he is. and love him for his passion and path in life.

for me i am much like hoobley, and while i want my organs to be used if they are needed, what is left over of my body i am not concerned about. i have expressed a preference to be cremated but i have done this to remove any possibility of conflict in my family over what i may have wanted done with my remains.

I am very much ok with donating my organs - but my DH is a bit the same as yours Dusty. He had a cousin who was in a terrible accident and the Dr's wanted the family to make a decision about turning off life support and donating his organs. The family didn't, and thier son is alive and enjoys a reasonable quality of life today - but that was 20 yrs ago and the process for acquiring organs is more thouroughly tested today. The person has to be "brain dead" and this decision or oppinion giben by three (i think) independant Dr's. I wonder, if a person is brain dead, then perhaps their soul has already gone to it's spiritual home? Although we know we have a soul - it's not a physical organ that can be transplanted into the life of another, our soul might just be our whole being, and the body just parts of it. Some people I know worry about donating their hearts, or recieving hearts because of what we hold in our hearts - you know like love for others, deep secrets etc. But anatomically there is no such place in the physical heart where these things are - so again, maybe the soul is much bigger than the heart - like it is our being. Anyway - so to rattle on, but I thought maybe I could be helpful. I am Christian and I feel like this, that my life and the life of those I love is a gift, and if by dyong we can gift the gift to others well lets do it.
p.s. this is just my veiw and i agree with Rach in that we have to love and respect others (especially DH) veiw on things - its was their unique differance that attracted us to them in the first place!

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rach thanks for sharing your beliefs. i can assure you i don't look down at my DH in any way, that is not how our r'ship works :)

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:hugs: hope it didn't come across wrong :hugs:

Noone should feel guilty or bad for not wanting to donate thier organs even if you would accept something. It is such a personal and sensitive subject. It is something that you have to be wholeheartedly for if you were to do it. If you are in two minds about it then it is better if you don't do it rather than say you'll do it then think you shouldn't and regret it. Espacially when you think of making that sort of decision for your child. I honestly don't know if I could donate my child's organs, so I wouldn't (at the moment when not faced with a choice- hopefully I never will be faced with the choice). I don't think it is a bad or good thing or right or wrong thing to do. It is such an individual thing to decide on and noone should sway anyone either way. People should be respected for thier choice either way.

For me, and this is my own personal belief, I would feel that if I didn't do all I could to help another person who was in a life and death situation, at the cost of organs that I would have no use for, I would then have to justify this to the higher power at judgement day, so yes I am registered as an organ donor, my DH is an organ donor and if ever I was faced with the tragedy of having to donate my child's organs, I would.

I was never a big believer in donating at all, even when my mum was on a dialysis machine keeping her alive, I still had trouble believing in donation. For me it was more of a 'if I was to be in a position to donate I would probably have my mums problems and therefore they would be no good to anyone'

But then I changed my mind. We had grown up being constantly told that one day some family out there would make the ultimate sacrifice for our family.
I found myself wondering how I could possibly expect to sit by the phone waiting for THE call that would change our lives and not be compassionate enough to be a registered donor myself? Here was a family, when at a deep dark and emotional time, were showing compassion to a total stranger...wow. It was then that I registered.

I have watched my mum sit on a machine for 4-5 hours 3 times a week for almost ten years. I watched her not be able to enjoy simple things like chocolate and mango or to drink as much water as she wanted. I watched my dad watching my mum and could see his heart breaking every time she sat there for hours with needles in her arms. I saw us grow up differently because of what life had thrown at us. I saw the joy on my mums face when she held my DD for the first time and when she had the energy to run around with her after her transplant. I know if it wasn't for a beautiful kind, generous family, my mum would not be here to do and see all these things now.

Dusty, I thought for years about if I should be a donor or not. Even when my mum was ill, I still didn't think I should donate. It is such a hard thing to think about as most people don't have an experience to help decide if they should or shouldn't be a donor.

I've never really thought about a connection between my soul and organ donation. I guess for me, when I think about my soul, I would think of it in connection in my heart. It is the things that I do for myself,my family, friends that come from my heart. which i hope makes me a good thoughful person with a good soul.
You've definately given me something to think about there.

Nic

Dusty - good on you for making sure that this is a topic that is out there between the two of you. My only comment on your DH belief is - would he be able to donate your organs given the circumstance arises?
I would donate all of my organs Except for my eyes - it is really strange i know but it is something personal really - my sister is of the same stance and i take consolation in the fact that as i need glasses i am sure they would never harvest my eyes anyway! - also i would not save someones life, just their vision, which i know is important though.

As a Nurse i have seen many many people die - Oie made the comment that she thought that your soul would pass on at the time of death... Now i am not of any real religion but i can tell you that when someone dies, something leaves, it is very obvious when someone passes as although their physical body is there, the person seems to be no longer there... Families often comment that they look so different when there is no life left.

To another note - there are sooooo few opertunities that a person can actually donate, pretty much you have to be in a hospital when you die so that you can be placed on life support so that the heart and lungs etc continue to function so that they are not damages by tissue death prior to collection and transfer. Also if the circumstances of death are suspicious you cannot donate as you would need an autospy... Cancer sufferes very often cannot donate some or all of their organs and people that are having certian treatments also cannot. That is why so few donations are actually made as you have to be in the right place at the right time (thats sounds awful doesnt it)

Also to follow up on the tests that are performed to determine brain death they are very strict and i am doubtful that an error would be made nowadays.
We often suggest switching off the 'lifesupport' as chance of survival is slim, but this does not necessairly mean that the person is actually brain dead - if that makes sense
I hope this helps

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Dusty - good on you for making sure that this is a topic that is out there between the two of you. My only comment on your DH belief is - would he be able to donate your organs given the circumstance arises?

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SJ I know if my hubby wanted to donate I would even though I personally can't bear the thought, same with my mum, she has respected how I feel but has always said if it was my decision on her organs would I respect her wishes too, and the answer again is yes

Dusty, I haven't read all the PP (previous posts) so this might have already been said. The first thing that sprung to my mind when I read your DH's fears of organ donation as a kind of 'dissipation' of his soul how would he explain the deaths of all the people in the world where body parts have been totally destroyed eg September 11... so many people's bodies were instantly incinerated. Does this mean that their souls were "broken" too? I personally don't think so. It's just my belief that the body and soul are two separate entities.

It's great that the lines of communication are open between you guys on this issue because I agree, it's very important.

i'll try to read the PP when the kids are a bit quieter!

your posts have really been helpful and i am sitting here really wondering why i hold some views and beliefs, what are they based on and why i find it hard to understand my DH's perspective in some ways.

kelliemm if i am completely honest with myself, i was shocked and a little angry when i first found out my DH's beliefs on donation. for me it was so straight forward and obvious, that i couldn't believe someone with all the intelligence and compassion as my DH had such a "narrow" (i say narrow as that is what i thought at the time but not any more) view on this issue. he knew i was shocked that in a way i was judgmental of his views on the issue. but he didn't mind as it was something he hadn't discussed with anyone else before and wanted to understand my perspective too. so kelliemm i am coming around in my thinking about how someone shouldn't feel bad about not donating but it still isn't easy for me after years and years of holding such a strong belief myself. i am a big believer in people making informed and thought out decisions so i guess for me it will come down to accepting that people have made a different choice to me based on their own beliefs, experiences and wishes.

oie and bath, you have both given me some things to talk with my DH about. i recently read that depending on your cultural background you may believe that love lies in another organ other than your heart. my DH believes VERY strongly that love lies in his heart. i actually believe it lies in your brain (scientific side of me again!). bath, i think my DH believes that he will loose part of his soul to another human if it is donated. but i will ask him to explain more and use your example. and oie and rach you are right i do love that my DH and i have differences. we share very similar principles and values but approach them in different and just as valid ways. thanks for reminding me ;)

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My only comment on your DH belief is - would he be able to donate your organs given the circumstance arises?...

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SJ we have talked about this and he will respect and honour my wishes. He has no trouble with that as for him organ donation is a very personal thing for him. My DH is is not a judgmental person which is one of his finest qualities. my family also know my wishes on this.

however, i wish it were the same for me. i really struggle with the fact that i know what his wishes are but if i were faced with the same scenario, i just don't know if i could follow his wishes. i don't say this lightly and it is something we have spoken about at great length but never resolved. i sound and feel like a hypocrite. for me (and we have spoken about this), i am not just put in the position of following his wishes, i am also the keeper of a great opportunity to save another 1 or who knows how many people's lives, their quality of life, their children’s happiness at having a parent live etc etc etc. this is one of the reasons i also wanted to discuss this. if i were a religious person i suppose i would be able to seek some guidance from a trusted member etc.

pls don't bag me out for my view/conflict of mind above, it really is something i struggle with and my DH is fully aware of how i feel and can actually understand the difficulty i am facing as he knows how much i value life and giving to others. he says it is one of the reasons he fell in love with me….he is a pretty special person. i think this will be an issue of ongoing discussion between us as we don’t feel it is resolved as yet. DH says i have given him much to think about (no doubt in communication with god) and i am trying to understand his beliefs as best i can with his assistance.

i have asked my DH where his belief in the soul’s connection to organs come from. (this is so ‘scientific dusty’ coming out strong again as my first reasoning is it must be a ‘learnt’ belief). i don’t think it is completely learnt for DH though. he does have a strong sense of what is right for him and he has such a strong connection with god. some of it comes from his extensive reading on spiritual issues and great spiritual leaders from different faiths, some of it from conversations with other kindred spirits who understand my DH very well but a lot of it comes from within.

nic, you story is amazing and i thank you so much for sharing something that is so personal and obviously been with you for a long time. you have really given some 'real' perspective to this discussion which for me personally is still very cerebral although emotional. also amelia thanks for your story. i am glad you were able to have your dad around for those years.
nessa, sushee and tracey thanks for sharing your beliefs too.

dusty
ps rach, your post was fine. i probably would have said the same on a different topic and as you can tell this is something i struggle with :)

I am such a strong supporter of Organ Donation. I probably wont say too much in this post as I feel so passionately about it. I do not see why you need your organs after you have died, when there are other people out there who need them desperately. Imagine if it were a small child or something who is just waiting for a second chance, but has noone to donate to them.
I know it is a very personal choice, and I respect anyone's decision on the topic, but I just find it hard to understand why you wouldnt save somebody else's life, if given the chance.

Personally I believe that our soul is an integral part of who we are (it IS who we are) and our physical body houses it during this life. While we are alive our physical body is very important to us - we experience the world through our senses, we connect with our loved ones through touch and (very importantly!) our body allows us to grow and birth beautiful babies. We most definitely feel the affects of any physical ailment or disability. However when someone dies I think that is the moment that their soul departs the body, the body's work is done and so in this way I feel that organ donation doesn't affect the completion or wholeness of the soul.

JMO for what it's worth :)

PS: this might seem a little contradictory, but I sometimes feel the same way about donating my eyes as Sammiejane does!

Hmm...I'm another one who wouldn't donate. I feel selfish but I can't change it. My DH and I have both talked about it too, he would donate, he really doesn't care. I feel the same as your DH, I don't know if I will need it in the next life. The bible says that we will be 'resurrected' like Jesus and I'm not really sure how that works. Jesus didn't leave a body, it rose with him to heaven. So doesn't that mean I need it?? I don't know. That's part of my decision, and also the fact that I just can't stand the thought of it so it would make my grief much worse, like others have said. I would also have a lot of trouble donating DH's organs if I had to, I feel that it would worry me so much, give me nightmares, and I just couldn't stand the thought of it. DH says that that is fine and I wouldn't have to do it for him it would be my choice because he doesn't have strong feelings either way. I would not be cremated either.
So I can really understand your DH's point of view. Like someone else said it seems pretty unlikely you would have to choose anyway because not many people actually get to donate, but it's great you've discussed it.

Just to clarify i wasnt criticising anyone with not being able to donate a loved ones organs, it is just that what we want is often spoken about and very often 2 people in a family have very different opinions, the bit that is not always spoken about is whether we would be able to carry out the other persons wishes...
My Dad doesnt want to donate, and has expressed concerns that he is worried that he may not be able to carry out Mums wishes of being a donor, i think that it very important that discussion also takes place. Mum was very understanding and told Dad that if he could not donate her organs she would not be angry (if you can be when you have passed on!) with him, but would prefer it if he did.

Good on you Dusty for bringing this topic to light - so many people have different views on the topic and it is great to hear them all

Sara - I can't find where right now, but the bible talks about us getting a new body...or being made new..(it's late, so I can't think of it properly right now). I think firstly, if it mattered, the bible would be clear about being buried and preserving ourselves well, but I don't think it will matter - think of people who die in fires, who are blown up, who are cremated, who are disabled, whose bodies have deteriorated in burial, who have lost limbs/had organs replaced...many people die with broken bodies, or no body, and I don't think that will cause a problem for God who knows how to make a perfect body for each individual.

Once again, I don't have a reference (others are more than welcome to fill in my bible blanks!), but the body is talked about in the bible as a vessel, a tool for earth. Sure, also a temple that we have to take care of, but I get the impression that it's a very separate thing to my spirit/soul. That my salvation and next life have nothing to do with the physical body I'm in now.
That's just how I understand things as of now.

I used to think that I needed my organs, that I wouldn't be complete in reincarnation if some of my organs were donated (I used to wonder if people who live today with certain organ failures were people who donated organs or had organs damaged in their past life...).

I read a story about an ancient statue of a Buddha being destroyed in Tibet, and some of the monks being outraged and upset, and someone reminded them of non-permanance and non-attachment, two very important concepts in Buddhism, and that while you have attachment to something physical (the Buddha statue... or your body's organs) you are being held back in your spiritual journey to enlightenment. I also like to remember that the Buddha taught compassion and kindness, and love for everyone like they were your own family. If you were on your deathbed, knowing you were definately going to die for some reason, and one of your family members would be able to live a full and happy life if you donated one of your organs to them, would you choose to donate them? I would, and so loving everyone like they were family means I will donate my organs so that someone can live and hopefully practice the same love and kindness to others.

That said, I defiantely don't judge anyone for not donating... I really only recently deided that is something I want to do, and know exactly what its like to be uncertain and not want to donate.

I have always believed that the soul is seperate to the body - whilst it is contained within us while we are alive, once we die the soul moves on to Heaven. It is the same when I visit someone's grave. I am paying my respects to them, but I know that was is buried below is not really them - just their body. The soul is intended to live for eternity, whereas our body has a finite time. So for me, organ donation is not an issue. If my death means that someone else's life is prolonged then I think that is a wonderful gift.

I know that organ donation is difficult for some of my family - but it is more to do with how the body is treated after death in order to harvest the organs. But I know if I asked them if they had an issue about it because of the soul - they would all say no as they don't see organs and the soul as being combined.

My husband and I are both organ donors. I believe the physical human body is just a…..Tupperware container for holding the soul (okay bad joke). After death we are empty and our soul continues on, to where I’m not sure yet. I have told my husband I want to be cremated when I die. I do not want anyone to mourn over my body because it won’t be me, just a broken vessel.
Those who make the decision not to donate their organs have strong beliefs against it. It is by no means an easy decision to make so it must be respected. We would all save a life if we could.

Hi everyone, Dusty interesting, thank you for sharing.

I have a few differing views on this- i am one of those- possibly undecided, yet i have ticked to donate on my license, besides my cornea's!! i too wear glasses and dont see the point of giving someone bad sight!!! i am just still unsure exactly how i feel.....

I belive in the idea that our soul travels thourgh different bodies in each life time (re incarnation) and that we just get a new one each time, we carry on things from life to life, sometimes ohysically, but that if i lost a limb, i would not neccessarily be re born minus that particular limb IYKWIM, but i MAY get strange pains in the area, or i may find i break it alot etc.... there wuold be some connection...

I have also seen a family member live on a dyalisis (sp) machine My older sister had complete renal failer when she turned 19- it really messed with her life as she was pretty much forced to stay home and not move out with her friends as she planned, she couldnt do alot of work, she couldnt get out and have much fun when thats what you should be doing in your 20's, she was on it for about 4 years before my dad donated one of his kidneys to her, i have seen the difference it makes to her, and i know he always jokes that a bit of him is living in her, and when he dies,(if that happens before the enevitable kidney failure- its been 10 years since the transplant, so she is now on borrowed time as they dont expect them to last for much longer than 7 or 8 years) that a peice of him will remain with her..... once it goes into failure again- she will be back on the waiting list, and back on the machine.


Now, i saying this, i also have other thoughts, its more along the line of "Nature" and that maybe the soul of the ppl who NEED these organs are actually meant to be passing on (yes, even my sister), you know the saying, when your time is up- its up, IYKWIM and by donating we are prolonging that particular souls journey, when they should be already on their way, Now i understand that someone (sorry read through quickly didnt catch the name) mentioned the precious 7 years they got to spend with their father, this is where my struggle lies, i understabd totally the desire to prolong life, i just also see it as maybe interfearing with Nature and a souls true path....

My experience with loosing my angels (m/carrages and 2 late losses) is that i felt that their time wasnt ready yet, and that has also got me thinking, that while we prolong these other lives by donation, is there a connection with the amount of fetal deaths, mis carrages etc, maybe there is a hidden link, maybe the soul of the dying person was all set to go- so another body was in the process of being made and being prepared, yet when the organ was donated and THat particular life was saved- is the repercution (sp) a lost baby who now no longer has a spirit or soul avaiable for the body as their soul is being kept alive here on earth???? Do you understand what i mean??

And to be honest, would i go to the extent of not accepting ANY medical treatment, no, but i would take a natural healer over a dr anyday.... there are natural ways of helping many deseases etc, and i would take that option before using medical technology.

and so i guess i am completely stuck by the fact that i will never really know, and i will struggle with this as i do many other "unknowns" out there in our world, just some food for thought


And one other thing i wanted to share was my Aunty and Uncles story- He doesnt beleive in donation- She does, and as they will both have the say over the other if one is left behind- they are both prepared to go against their partners wishes, if he goes first- she is overriding his decision and donating, if she goes first, he is over writting hers and NOT donating.... Dusty, i think i like the way you and your dh have come to respect eachothers wishes and do what you know the other wants, even if you dont neccessarily agree...

Star
xoxox