animal products, dairy and eggs and such

So I've already converted back to vegetarianism (but still eating fish and, unfortunately, the meat meals my stepdad cooks as it's very hard to get out of it), and I've been thinking about the other animal products I eat. I'm thinking about eliminating dairy, because I honestly don't believe it has any health benefits whatsoever.

So the question is, what should I switch to? I hear soy is carcinogenic, and then there's the problem of finding non-GM soy milk (I don't know how common it is? Perhaps it's even the norm).

Also, I've been reading about eggs and have decided to cut back,for cholesterol reasons. Is there anything I should know about eggs and egg replacements?

As for fish, I don't really feel guilty about eating fish (as long as they're not overfished) because they're stupid, and I don't know of any health risks associated with eating fish. Are there any?

Any info would be muchly appreciated. Thanks :D

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As for fish, I don't really feel guilty about eating fish (as long as they're not overfished) because they're stupid

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:rofl: sorry cant add anything, just thought that was hilarious!!!

I HAVE to cut back on cheese, but its soooo tasty! would like a better alternative, so will check back in here and see what others say

We don't eat dairy in our house... apart from the occasional haloumi that DH & I chuck on the BBQ. We eat eggs though, but only from our chickens LOL We are pretty fussy really.

When I bake or make things like frittata or savoury muffins, I generally will add something that is a very tasty alternative like ham or tuna or semi dried tomatoes... I use rice milk to bake and the girls drink it all the time. I use it for smoothies and for mashed potatoes, anything I would use milk for really.

You get used to life without dairy. We are venturing into a gluten free existence.

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Also, I've been reading about eggs and have decided to cut back,for cholesterol reasons. Is there anything I should know about eggs and egg replacements?

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The info on eggs and cholesterol has now changed, they actaully help to lower cholesterol. When bubs is down I will see if I can find the info.

ETA: Good info here from "Whats good for you" Are eggs bad for your heart?

Also found this, think I heard this on the radio one day:

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Eat two eggs daily 'to cut your cholesterol'
Tue-Aug 26, 2008

London

Are eggs good or bad for health? Well, the on-again, off-again debate on the subject has again been cracked open by a new study which claims that eating two eggs a day could help one lose weight and cut cholesterol.

Earlier studies suggested a direct link between eating eggs and an increase in blood cholesterol levels, which raises the risk of heart disease.

Now, a team at Surrey University has found that those who eat two eggs daily while on a calorie-restricted diet not only can lose weight but also could slash their cholesterol levels, the Daily Mail reported.

According to them, eating eggs at breakfast actually contributes to weight loss by making people feel fuller for longer in the day.

"There is no convincing evidence to link an increased intake of dietary cholesterol or eggs with coronary heart disease. Indeed, eggs make a nutritional contribution to a healthy, calorie-restricted diet," lead researcher Dr Bruce Griffin said.

For their study, the researchers recruited 50 obese volunteers who were fed with two eggs everyday for 12 weeks.

They also had to follow a reduced-calorie diet recommended by the British Heart Foundation.

They also recruited another group of healthy subjects who followed the same diet, but cut out eggs altogether. Both groups lost weight and experienced a fall in the average level of blood cholesterol, the researchers found.

This study, they said, also provides evidence to support the scientific consensus that saturated fat, found in pastry, biscuits and cakes, is more responsible for raising blood cholesterol than cholesterol-rich foods such as eggs.

The study is to be published in The European Journal of Nutrition.

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Well soy is fine. Organic soy is best but if you eat soy in normal quantities it has a lot of health benefits. If you are cutting out dairy and egg go for a soy milk with B12.
There are health risks for eating lots of fish with levels of pollution and heavy metals. So eat in moderation if you are going to. As for them being stupid - sorry but that is just perception talking and doesn't represent reality.

^^ Well it sort of depends on how you define intelligence, but anyway . . .
The problem with soy is that there's a huge industry behind it, the US produces masses of the stuff so if there actually *is* conclusive evidence that soy increases the risk of cancer, there are commercial interests which are not going to want to let that information get out.

Soy cancer warning | The Daily Telegraph

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CANCER patients are being warned to avoid foods rich in soy because they can accelerate the growth of tumours.

The Cancer Council NSW will issue guidelines today, warning about the dangers of high-soy diets and soy supplements for cancer patients and those people in remission from cancer.

At particular risk are people suffering from hormone-dependent cancers, including breast and prostate cancer - the two most common types of cancer in Australia.

Cancer survivors are also being urged to avoid high doses of soy, as they may be more vulnerable to a relapse.

Research has found high consumption of soy products can also limit the effectiveness of conventional medicines used to treat the disease.

"There is evidence to suggest that women with existing breast cancer or past breast cancer should be cautious in consuming large quantities of soy foods or phyto-oestrogen supplements,'' a position statement from the Cancer Council says.

"Women with current or past breast cancer should be aware of the risks of potential tumour growth when taking soy products.

"The Cancer Council does not support the use of health claims on food labels that suggest soy foods or phyto-oestrogens protect against the development of cancer.''

Health experts are particularly concerned that breast-cancer sufferers who take soy or phyto-oestrogen supplements could feed the disease and reduce the effectiveness of their treatment.

Soy, which is present in soy beans, soy milk, tofu, tempeh and some breads, contains phyto-oestrogens that mimic the actions of hormones in the body.

This means it may interfere with cancer drugs such as Tamoxifen, which works by suppressing the female hormone oestrogen.

Men with prostate cancer are also being warned against high soy consumption, as phyto-oestrogens may imitate the male hormone androgen.

Although the Cancer Council has warned against soy supplements, it believes an occasional intake of soy food is still safe for cancer patients.

Cancer Council nutritionist Kathy Chapman said soy supplements could contain dangerously high doses of phyto-oestrogens.

"If you were a woman with breast cancer and thought, 'I'm going to radically change my diet and have very large portions of soy at every meal', it could be a problem,'' Ms Chapman said.

"For someone who has tofu once or twice a week and drinks a bit of soya milk, it's not so much of a problem.''

Soy has earned a reputation as a natural "superfood'' that cuts the risk of breast or prostate cancer, and is commonly included in women's health supplements.

This claim was based on findings that cancer rates were lower in Asia, where soy consumption is high.

But soy would lower the risk of contracting cancer "only a little'', according to the Cancer Council.

"While they may have a protective effect, there is also some evidence that phyto-oestrogens may stimulate the growth of existing hormone-dependent cancers,'' the council's statement said.

The risk of contracting other non-hormone-dependent cancers, including bowel cancer, would be unaffected by soy intake.

The Cancer Council was prompted to investigate the issue after being inundated with questions about the role of soy in cancer patients' diets.

"We felt we were getting a lot of calls on our hotline about this topic,'' Ms Chapman said.

Breast-cancer survivor Susie Musarra was surprised by the new evidence about soy.

The Sydney mother of two was diagnosed five years ago. She followed a healthy diet, containing plenty of fruit and vegetable juices, during chemotherapy treatment.

"It's really confusing, because you get a lot of conflicting information about what to eat,'' she said.
"It's good to have this advice, because it helps you make an informed decision - and the Cancer Council is a reputable source.''

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Astrid, what I read was that while they do increase good cholesterol, they also increase all cholesterol overall so they're not that good for you. 2 eggs a week is safe, from what I read. I figure if that's true, I'd rather increase good cholesterol from eating avocado or something.

We eat organic tofu every other week or so... The girls love it! But we have it in our stir fry & the girls eat it up.

But that study says that it is bad for cancer patients undergoing treatment? It doesn't talk about those without cancer?

I agree that the soy industry doesn't have the cleanest name at all. In fact its dodgy at bet in some places, thats why we use organic tofu and only once a week.

MMmmmmmm avocado ... I'm an avo addict!! :redface:

We eat a 90% vegan diet, basically vegan with some fish and the occasional 'oopsie' :lol: We don't eat a lot of soy because from my reading large amounts aren't good for you. I use Bonsoy which is non GM, although I'm not suggesting that there aren't other brands that are also non GM. Bonsoy is exxy, but it is awesome tasting and works great in cooking, and seeing as we don't use a lot I don't worry too much about it being $4/L :o

We occasionally eat tofu, soy ice-cream and other soy products, but overall the amounts aren't large. I've found more and more since we changed our diet that I'm cooking organic food from scratch as it just seems to fit most comfortably with the way we're trying to fuel our bodies.

Agree with christy rice milk is a great alternative. I actually preferred it on cereal to soy when I first went dairy free.

The risks of fish increase with the size of the fish .. sounds weird I know but it has to do with the food chain and their increasing mercury levels. The most likely to have high mercury are swordfish, marlin & shark. There is quite a bit of info on fish in this link Fish and mercury FAQs | NSW Food Authority Government sites aren't necessarily my chosen nutritional advice sites though so if you're paranoid like me you might want to do some wider reading ;)

Oh, and eggs .. curiously I get a hankering for eggs every few months. A poached one with some smoked salmon usually sorts it out!! That's what I mean about 90% vegan ... if my body starts really craving an egg or some fish then I figure I must need something nutritionally so I listen. For the most part tho it's perfectly healthy (and happy) eating a wide range of vegetables, legumes, whole grains, fruits & nuts.

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Oh, and eggs .. curiously I get a hankering for eggs every few months. A poached one with some smoked salmon usually sorts it out!! That's what I mean about 90% vegan ... if my body starts really craving an egg or some fish then I figure I must need something nutritionally so I listen.

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People have believed this for a long time, but studies have disproven it. My belief is that animal products are addictive, and it's the addiction talking, not some nutritional need. Go for 100%!

Rice milk has no calcium unless fortified. Soy milk also has little, but most commercially available brands are fortified, some with B12 as well as calcium. Many are non-GM.

I don't think there's any fish you can eat without guilt, stupid or not, unless you catch and kill it yourself.

Cut out eggs. Only girl chickens make eggs, which means 50% of them are killed in their infancy. Nice.

Lay it out straight with your stepdad. I was really worried about telling MIL when I had gone vegan, but she's fine with it. I just turn up armed with food - soy milk, nuttelex, tahini, nooch, and she sits back and lets me make myself at home in her kitchen.

Ahhhh, who let the militant hormonal vegan loose in this forum?:redface:

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I was really worried about telling MIL when I had gone vegan, but she's fine with it. I just turn up armed with food - soy milk, nuttelex, tahini, nooch, and she sits back and lets me make myself at home in her kitchen.

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Geez can I borrow ur MIL?? Mine took great pride in 'hiding' things in the food she prepared for me until I just stopped eating at her house. She won't even let her own (vegan) daughter prepare food in her kitchen so my chances are less than zero! It really gets me irate that she insists on serving DP "real food" (ie:meat & chicken) whenever we go there for dinner even though he has repeatedly told her of his dietary changes. Of course, if he eats it she will keep serving it to him, but it still frustrates me no end. Oh, and the best bit? She doesn't eat red meat herself and cooks her own vegetarian meals ... but is so passive aggressive about the dietary decisions of her DD & partner & girls & DS & I. :wall:

Phew, u really got me going there snugglybean ... sorry for the vent :redface: (but truly I will swap u MILs!!)

Christy, my thinking is that if soy can increase the risk of cancer worsening, then it can't be good for anyone. Because of the huge invested commercial interest, I doubt that we're getting all the information.

tsgirl, I remember the fish thing from when I was preg, and I wouldn't eat swordfish (some species are threatened) or shark.

snugglybean, I don't think it's fair to tell people they should feel guilty for eating fish, animal products or anything else for that matter. If I choose not to eat something for moral reasons, it's *my* choice. Our society is set up in such a way that eating animals and animal products is acceptable and telling people they should feel bad for that is counter-productive. It would be much better to try to improve the conditions of the animals themselves (such as cage hens and live animal exports) rather than pushing your opinions onto others. No one likes that, it just alienates people.

On a similar note, I randomly became a raw vegan :lol: I feel so much healthier after having stopped eating meat, I decided to go full-throttle for a couple of months. I used to be a vegan and now that I can cook and prepare food, it seems the perfect time to start up again. I started yesterday and so far it's really good and not as limiting as you might think. I bought some steel-cut oats which I soak in warm water rather than cook and add fresh fruit to, and the rest of the day is salads and such. Good stuff. Though i'm eating more than 2 serves of fruit, which is fine since that's my only vsource of sugar (apart from what's naturally occuring in vegies and nuts).

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my thinking is that if soy can increase the risk of cancer worsening, then it can't be good for anyone.

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The study is really looking at basically overdosing yourself on soy (eg. soy supplements) not in normal dietary amounts. Soy in normal amounts can be very beneficial. In fact the phytooestrogens themselves are thought to help protect against some cancers such as prostate, breast and bowel. So in itself, soy is not a carcinogen. Most foods in excess can be dangerous for example large amount of red meat can increase your risk of bowel cancer.

I don't personally think what Snugglybean said is offensive, especially considering your original post about fish being stupid which I do find offensive. I have no wish to get into a debate about the eating of meat but am supportive of considerate discussion about it. :)

I apologize for offending anyone about saying fish are stupid, though I don't really see how it's even debatable. Their brains exist solely to deal with sensory imput, hormonal balance, maintaining circadium rhythms, and controlling voluntary and involuntary physical movement. They do not "think" or "feel" like other animals. What I do find offensive is telling other people they should change their lifestyle to comply with someone elses moral judgement.

What I've read about soy is that the enzymes change properties when they're cooked and the human body can no longer process them properly. I doubt that small amounts of soy would do any harm but I wouldn't use it to meet all of my calcium requirements for example. The old "A glass of milk, tub of yogurt, slice of cheese" is too much in my book. It's possible that there isn't a risk but if soy is dangerous, we wouldn't know about it for another few decades.

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They do not "think" or "feel" like other animals.

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I am sure I don't at all know what you mean. Fish do think and feel. Additionally, they exhibit the exact same stress hormones as other animals when feeling pain and discomfort (including capture) and it has been measured time and again in scientific studies. They make the same daily choices that other animals make about their own survival including prey and predator interactions, social dominance hierarchies, avoidance of pain or death, foraging/hunting for food. Thinking fish are stupid is just something that people choose to do because they want to justify eating fish. Some further reading from recent scientific journals for those who are open to it:

Catch and release fish learn to avoid the hooks of anglers:
Askey et al (2006) Linking angling catch rates and fish learning under catch-and-release regulations, North American Journal of Fisheries Management 26(4) 1020-1029

Sub-ordinate fish in social groups steal food from dominant fish by using previous learning, expectancy of reward, and behavioural and learning plasticity
Hollis et al. (2004) Novel strategies of subordinate fish competing for food: learning when to fold, Animal Behaviour 68(5) 1155-1164

Fish are found to feel stress, pain and fear and their welfare should be considered especially for aquafarming application
Chandaroo et al. (2004) Can fish suffer?: perspectives on sentience, pain, fear and stress, Applied Animal Behaviour Science 86(3-4) 225-250

I think with extra avacado you will be right :). I LOVE avacado and use it as a spread instead of butter or mayo etc. It is WONDERFUL!

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I am sure I don't at all know what you mean. Fish do think and feel. Additionally, they exhibit the exact same stress hormones as other animals when feeling pain and discomfort (including capture) and it has been measured time and again in scientific studies. They make the same daily choices that other animals make about their own survival including prey and predator interactions, social dominance hierarchies, avoidance of pain or death, foraging/hunting for food. Thinking fish are stupid is just something that people choose to do because they want to justify eating fish. Some further reading from recent scientific journals for those who are open to it:

Catch and release fish learn to avoid the hooks of anglers:
Askey et al (2006) Linking angling catch rates and fish learning under catch-and-release regulations, North American Journal of Fisheries Management 26(4) 1020-1029

Sub-ordinate fish in social groups steal food from dominant fish by using previous learning, expectancy of reward, and behavioural and learning plasticity
Hollis et al. (2004) Novel strategies of subordinate fish competing for food: learning when to fold, Animal Behaviour 68(5) 1155-1164

Fish are found to feel stress, pain and fear and their welfare should be considered especially for aquafarming application
Chandaroo et al. (2004) Can fish suffer?: perspectives on sentience, pain, fear and stress, Applied Animal Behaviour Science 86(3-4) 225-250

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But none of those involve thinking or feeling *emotions* (I should have pointed out that I meant emotionally, not physically). It's entirely possible that fish do feel pain, since they have a brain and a nervous system, but they don't make decisions about anything, they operate on instinct alone. Those quotes don't have any links attached to them so I can't be convinced.

Anyway . . .

I LOVE avocado, I eat one a day. I don't know if that's good or not :lol: I've lost heaps of weight doing this too, 3kg already!

Sorry but I cant copyright entire journal articles due to copyright. They are references not links.But I wont argue anymore as I believe that learning and adapting are evidence of making decisions, and that the evidence does point to fish feeling stress and fear - both of which are emotional and physiological. This has been found using the same hormonal evidence that is used for any other animal. Look I am not saying dont eat fish. But using excuses that have been scientifically disproved leads other people to get the wrong opinion. Animal behaviour, stress and welfare is my field so I am not just an overemotive person trying to humanise an animal. There are facts and there are myths. And I was pointing out scientific fact.

It's also scientific fact, if you look at the construct of the brain of fish, that there is no centre for emotion or thought.

This is totally random, as i just came across this when i was pottering about...

When i was 20 we had goldfish. We kept them in an aquarium. We got 2 and then about 8 months later we got 3 more. We had the 5 for about a year or so i think. But the original 2 (they were all different enough you could tell them apart) ALWAYS hung out together. It was a joke actually as whenever we tried to get them out to clean the tank (not very often, it was filtered, but you still sometimes have to give it a big clean) you couldn't net one without the other because they stuck together like glue.

Anyway one night one of the pair jumped out of the tank and we found it dead on the floor. The other one never ate again. It died about a month later. It just mooched about the bottom of the tank getting thinner and thinner and then died.

I don't know everything (or anything much even) about fish and it could be that some sort of illness made the first one go mad and the other one stop eating, but the other 3 were fine and lived another year or more before we gave them to a friend. I don't know about brains, and it could well be that i'm ascribing emotions to the fish because i have emotions myself, but to me it looked like that little fish just pined to death.

I eat fish BTW. I eat all meat in fact. So them having emotions or not doesn't affect my morality or any "cause". I tend to assume that all creatures have the same worth as me, cosmically speaking, whatever they seem to do/think/feel.

Bx

That's so random! I never noticed such things when I had goldfish, though I definately did with budgies and rats (especially rats, gorgeous girls they were).

They actually showed on Mythbusters that goldfish can be trained...much like any other animal. But I suppose that is beside the point anyway!