I was told that you shouldn't eat ham, so have avoided that. But just wondering if it is safe to eat cooked bacon? like on pizza or in pasta or even with eggs??
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I was told that you shouldn't eat ham, so have avoided that. But just wondering if it is safe to eat cooked bacon? like on pizza or in pasta or even with eggs??
bacon is fine as long as it's eaten freshly cooked and piping hot. even ham - if you have it and cook it yourself, it's ok to eat. after xmas i ate some ham cooked up like bacon with eggs for brekkie! was yum
I've been eating ham just as I always have.
I avoided all of these things with DS. This time around, I'm over it. That is my choice though. I don't smoke, I don't do drugs and I tickle my son's tummy regularly, so if eating ham is the worst thing I do, I'm doing well in life.
I barely eat anything I always feel that sick - if I feel like ham, I'll eat it. Cold.
I too have been eating ham and bacon,ham mainly heated like in a toasted sandwhich or pizza,i have 2 pregnancy food books and both say thats fine.
Thanks ladies! I think I'll stick to as you as making sure it's hot and freshly cooked. I had a bacon and egg toasted sandwhich for lunch mmmmm just trying to get used to not having runny egg lol
All Deli meats have a theoretical risk of acrrying the listeria bacterium. However, the risk is very small, so I personally have made the decision to eat deli meats. Even soft cheese. But that is just my decision.
Heat destroys the bacteria, so cooked soft cheeses and deli meats are fine (like blue cheese in a pasta sauce or cooked ham or bacon).
In Europe, they don't even advise people against eating those things because the risk is so small these days with our hygiene standards.
I would however make sure I buy and eat it from reputable sources, where it has been well chilled, eg. not left in the sun at a BBQ.
Theoretically you could contract listeria from eating raw vegetables. So really, we shouldn't even eat salads.
You should always make sure you wash any vegetables you use very well.
Saša
Yes I eat cooked ham and bacon. Miss the soft eggs too!
Pasturised eggs are ok to eat runny (and as far as I am aware all, or at least all common brands, of eggs in Australia are pasturised.:
I did a lot of research on Listeria (both for a pregnant person and a person undergoing Chemotherapy) and much of the information that floats around is exaggerated or incorrect. Provided food is prepared hygienically (you can get of the food safe web site) and has been kept at proper standards, the risk of Listeria is eliminated. It is still possible for it to remain in things like cold meat and soft cheeses as they are often not heated to the required temperatures to destroy the Listeria in the first place, thus the reason they are the most well known to carry it, but as said previous posts, in this day and age that risk is very minimal (although if you did happen to be in that very minor % the outcome is almost guaranteed to be devastating).
I suggest eating food from reputable places and avoid eating the items that are higher on the 'risk' chart for listeria (soft cheese, cold [and some hot] meats - unless you are certain they were heated to above 70 degree celcius all the way through to the middle and then stored correctly first, soft serve ice cream - unless you are certain of correct, hygienic methods for the cleaning of the machines and many take away foods - unless the foods come to you piping hot, so ask for it fresh).
That's interesting about the eggs, thanks
I'm eating ham too but instead of getting it from the deli i have been buying the prepacked stuff from the fridge so there is less chance of "koodies" :p
I think as long as you use good judgement most things are fine. I would be missing soft eggs too but even the smell of eggs is enough to turn me green at the moment!
2ndtimemum, interesting about the eggs. Where did you get that info from that eggs in Australia are pasteurised? Just wondering as my packet of Woolworths Select Eggs doesn't say anything about them being pasteurised. And I couldn't find any info to that respect in a quick online search either. I would be a little disappointed if they just don't state the fact whether they're apasteurised or not on the packet. Not that it's a bad thing, but I think the consumer should know... On milk it states that it has been homogenised and pasteurised.
About the soft cheese: Most cheeses (soft & hard) in Australia have been made with pasteurised milk which reduces (but doesn't eliminate) the risk when compared with soft cheese made from unpasteurised milk.
Saša
I still eat bacon and ham occasionally. I think the MAIN thing to be careful of is if it is not very fresh.
They just make me want to hurl, unfortunately. So no, I'm not eating them ;)
:lol: I wouldn't eat anything that made me feel sick or didn't look to appealing. I am very careful with what I eat and my appetite has changed a fair bit and some of my favourite foods just smell so bad now or I cringe when i see them. I am lucky to eat ham once a week IF that. Maybe once a fortnight. I only usually have it in sandwiches and as for bacon. I haven't had that in over 2 months :lol: It's fruit and vegies all the way for me! :D
2nd time mum - thats really interesting. And as you say most of the time the risk can be managed. I'm perhaps being extra cautious as I live in a community where the food quality/standard is nothing compared to the cities etc.
Thanks so much for all your replies, it really is an eye opener and I guess with bubs being a surprise package I didn't really have time to prepare/research for what I was in for, also I find a lot of information contradicting the next piece I read.
Hope you all feeling better soon. My worst time is from 530pm till I go to bed :(
I can't remember where I first read that information, I think it was the Australian Food Safe website... Although a quick search found me this: "The law requires that all egg products sold in Australia for consumption be pasteurized." from the public health of WA website.:
Mmmm, yes, I had found this type of information, too. But it talks about egg products, not whole egg in their shells. When I had a look around the net, the advice I found was to use pasteurised egg if you prepare foods that contain uncooked egg (eg. tiramisu) for the elderly or immuno suppressed. The site further stated that pasteurised whole eggs can be found at some supermarkets, suggesting, that most eggs are not pasteurised. I found that info on a few different australian sites.
So, I think if you buy ready made tiramisu in the desert section, they probably used pasteurised egg products to make it. But I doubt that the majority of fresh eggs are pasteurised...
Not exactly definitive information, but an indication nonetheless.
Whole eggs are classed as egg products.:
:
All that it means is that it can be part of the contents, or the whole contents. But eggs in their shell are not classified as egg products.
wiki description of pasturisation
so you cant pasturise an uncracked egg,,there fore runny eggs are still not a safe food for pg women to eat.:
Pasteurization typically uses temperatures below boiling since at temperatures above the boiling point for milk, casein micelles will irreversibly aggregate (or "curdle"). There are two main types of pasteurization used today: High Temperature/Short Time (HTST) and Extended Shelf Life (ESL) treatment. Ultra-high temperature (UHT or ultra-heat treated) is also used for milk treatment. In the HTST process, milk is forced between metal plates or through pipes heated on the outside by hot water, and is heated to 71.7 ?C (161 ?F) for 15-20 seconds. UHT processing holds the milk at a temperature of 138 ?C (250 ?F) for a fraction of a second. ESL milk has a microbial filtration step and lower temperatures than HTST.[1] Milk simply labeled "pasteurization " is usually treated with the HTST method, whereas milk labeled "ultra-pasteurization " or simply "UHT" has been treated with the UHT method
also in europe they would still be warning women of these risks becasue you can get raw milk and cheeses over there which are really high risk carriers of listeria
There has been a process invented in the last 6 years or so that cn actually pasteurise a whole egg in the shell. It involves a warm water bath (I believe the temperature is controlled at 62 degrees).
:
How do you pasteurize a shell egg without cooking it?
It’s a combination of time and temperature. At National Pasteurized Eggs, Inc., we put our farm-fresh eggs through a giant all-natural water bath for just under one hour. The key is the preciseness of the computer controlled bath which ensures FDA standards for pasteurization, destroying the bacteria and viruses without cooking the eggs. The constant movement of our eggs and water while in the bath is a key component in assuring the eggs don’t cook.
What tests or verification do you use to be sure all eggs are pasteurized?
Pasteurization is a proven science that dates back to the reign of Napoleon. The patented technology used by National Pasteurized Eggs, Inc. has been specifically adopted to shell eggs. The time and temperature protocols and process steps, as well as pre and post pasteurization are all monitored by computer and all processes are verified and approved by Silliker Labs. All NPE facilities maintain detailed quality assurance and HACCP programs.
But it seems to me that these eggs are hard to come by unless you buy them from a commercial food supplier. They are also more expensive than regular eggs.:
The eggs enter our patented pasteurization system where the carriers transport the eggs to our clean, warm water bath pasteurizer.
The eggs continue through the water bath where this mixture of exact time and temperature assures accurate pasteurization. The eggs are pasteurized to exceed a 5 log reduction of harmful bacteria or viruses without cooking the egg. The 5 log reduction of Salmonella is the regulated standard set by the FDA required for a product to be labeled pasteurized. The NPE patented process ensures that eggs meet and exceed this 5 log FDA requirement without cooking the egg.
The eggs move on automated carriers where they receive an optical check that identifies and removes all damaged or cracked eggs.
The eggs then are conveyed out of the bath and through an automatic waxing unit which applies a food grade wax protection over the shell. This wax acts as an additional seal to protect the egg from absorption of any cross-contaminants that otherwise could pass through the shell's thousands of open pores.
Next, the eggs receive a red Circle P stamp identifying them as pasteurized.
This finished product is then packed, moved to coolers and brought to below 45?F., and palletized for shipment.
The facility and production are managed under controlled HACCP procedures adhering to defined SOP’s and GMP’s and Circle U Kosher approval standards. The facility and process are inspected and certified by USDA and Silliker Labs and approved by the FDA.
The total pasteurization process above results in destruction of bacteria and viruses inside and outside the shell, preserving freshness and taste as well as significantly extending the shelf life of the eggs.
I am European (German) and my sister-in-law and also a good friend have just recently had babies over there. No, they do not advise against eating soft cheese or deli meats in general. They do advise against drinking unpasteurised milk or eating cheese and other dairy products which have been made with unpasteurised milk.
By the way, you can buy unpasteurised and unhomogenised milk here in Australia, too. My health food shop across the road sells it sometimes. They call it "Cleopatra's Bath Milk".
I used to drink it while at my parent's house (in Germany) last year. it is divine. Tastes so much nicer than the treated mik. And with modern hygiene standards, it is not as dangerous as it used to be. Pasteurisation does destroy some of the more delicate nutrients and some of the flavour does get lost. However I wouldn't drink it now that I am pregnant, to be on the safe side. Unpasteurised, unhomogenised milk has a shelf life of only 2 days, so it is probably not a very practical thing for everyday use.
Saša
it is illegal to sell raw milk for drinking purposes. which is why the one you can get is Bath milk..although they cant tell you what to do with itonce its in your possecsion.
i had a dairy farmer for an ex bf. so know the rules with raw milk.
this is what i meant. not about normal soft cheeses but the ones using raw milk:
They do advise against drinking unpasteurised milk or eating cheese and other dairy products which have been made with unpasteurised milk
I just meant to point out the difference that here they advise against eating all soft cheese, often even stating that they are dangerous even when pasteurised milk has been used.
And the main difference is when it comes to deli meats like salami or ham. it is not mentioned at all over there that there might be a listeria risk.
Funny, how it is illegal here to sell unpasteurised milk for consumption when in Europe some health professionals are starting to promote it again as a healthier, more wholesome alternative. And I'm not just talking about alternative medicine. My dad is a surgeon, and he drinks raw milk whenever he can. For the flavour mainly, but also because he believes that it is better for you, easier to digest and more natural and also pretty safe.
Saša
sasa
i love raw milk when i was seeing my ex i would get fresh milk straight from the dairy (the storage tank was refridgerated so it was cold)
it doesnt suprise me that they would be starting to go back to using raw milk. esp as our hygiene standards have changed soooo much since they have been pastuerising milk.
but i think we have such an outdated form of medical advise for pg women anywaythat its not suprising they get told to not eat soo much
About listeria; I've worked in delis before and the hygene standards of the staff are not always perfect (my deli was a particularly good one but it really depends on the staff handling the meat at the time). Even when products are actually being processed (bacon and such), the standards are high IN THEORY but at the end of the day, it's the staff who need to implement the policies and they often don't. E.g. I know someone who worked at a meat processing factory and some of the people working there would eat bacon (arguing that it's partly cooked like ham, lol!) while working. I used to work at a shellfish processing factory and we only ever washed our boots and used the correct entrances on the day the health inspector was due. Again, people would eat lobster while working. Obviously eating while processing food is unhygenic and things like this happen all the time. I don't know, I guess my point is that while we theoretically have high standards, it often is not that way in practice.
Good point Neenee Jellybeanie. I also heard the other day that to never buy marinated or crumbed meat as it is all the old stuff that they use to do it. Don't know if it is true but makes some sense so will be avoiding that! (pregnant or not!)
Yep, I'm sure some don't even wash their hands after going to the loo.
Just one quick thing about the bacon being partly cooked, so they argued it was ok to eat (I guess this comment didn't refer to pregnant people): meat doesn't need to be cooked to be ok to eat. Prosciutto isn't cooked (apart from prosciutto cotto). Neither is salami (well, there are a few spacialty "cotto" cooked Salami varieties).
Bacon and ham are both cured, some are also smoked. So really, eating bacon raw is not much different than eating ham, it's just a different cut.
Although you are definitely right about eating while working with food being unhygienic, this doesn't really relate to listeria. The listeria bacteria is mainly found in soil and stream water. It can then be transferred to plants and lifestock. You can contract listeria by eating unwashed vegetables, gardening. And of course by eating the meat of infected animals or through cross-contamination.
Saša
Just wanted to bust some myths and explain some questions here:
1 WHOLE EGGS and ALL egg derivatives are PASTURISED by law in Australia.
2 ALL milk and milk products sold in Australia (including soft cheeses) are pasturised, by law.
3 HAM SALAMI PROSCUITTO etc are ALL COOKED. The process that cures the meat COOKS it. So hence, HAM< BACON, SALAMI, etc can ALL be eaten RAW. The danger comes from incorrectly handled or meats that are contaminated in the first instance. HEATING will kill listeria if it heated above 70 degrees and eaten immediately.
4 You CAN contract listeria frm unwashed vegetables and fruits, hence why some drs recommend not eating salad sandwiches etc from anywhere but your own home where you have washed the products yourself, and not eating them after 24 hours o preperation.
The only exceptions to these statements are the recent introduction of the availablility of unpasturised and unhomogenised soft cheeses and milk products, usually only boutique products, not available at your local supermarket, and they must be labeled as such.
There are certain deli meats, like salamis, that are unsafe not only as they are deli meats but because of the products from which they are made and how they are made. if you google "how to make home-made salami" you should come up with some pretty eye-opening information. It is not for the light of stomach! I steer clear of all salamis because of this fact.
However, as I said, so long as the hams etc are FRESHLY sliced and opened, stored correctly and cut on properly cleaned machinary (at home or store bought) you should be fine.
Obviously if you have any unuasual or special complications with your pregnancy any risk food should be avoided.
Oh, and as a side note, if you go to a deli or sandwich bar or such, always ask the attendant to remove their gloves and replace them with new ones. Gloves actually spread more disease than your hands do if they are not changed with every customer, ESPECIALLY if the attendant is also handling money.
Hope this helps clear up some misconceptions I have seen in this thread.
Hi Lime Slice, I was just trying to point out the difference between our trditional perception of the meaning of the word "cooked" and the actual process involved in producing deli meats which is called "curing" as there are actuall "cooked" (in the traditional sense) deli meats, too. As in prosciutto cotto which is cooked AND cured. By the way, it is still regarded as "raw" after the cooking process and before it as been cured. Although curing has a similar effect on the meat as cooking, I think it confuses a little using the words interchangeably as they are 2 different processes (which arguably have a similar outcome). But curing preserves the meat in a way that mere cooking (as in boiling or baking) can't.
I would like to know where you get this info from that whole eggs (in their shell) are pasteurised by law in Australia. I just called Food Standards Australia and they said that it's not true. Egg products (as in eggs that have been removed from their shells) have to be pasteurised, but not the aggs in their shell.
Oh really? I didn't think that was allowed. As far as I'm aware, it is still illegal to sell raw milk products for consumption. I see how they can get away with selling raw milk as a bat milk. But how do they get away with selling raw milk cheese? As a facial? I would very much welcome this turn around. Not because I necessarily want to consume it, but because I would welcome having the choice.:
...introduction of the availablility of unpasturised and unhomogenised soft cheeses and milk products...
Oh, and by the way, any type of meat processing is not very appetising to watch. And I completely agree with one of the PP. I would always try and avoid buying any pre-crumbed or marinated meat. Not only because of what kind of cuts they use, but also because I know that I use much nicer ingredients and it will taste better and be healthier if I do it myself.
ETA: I just googled home-made salami, and so far haven't found any article I found surprising, eye-opening or not for the faint-hearted. Can you PM me the link to the article you were referring to?
Saša
Hi Sasa :)
I am sorry, I wasn't very clear with regard to the eggs! I have just re-read my post! lol Eggs that you buy in their carton in a shell aren't pasturised, but whole egg products are. So, any combination of yolk/white dried, or whole is pasturised. I am sorry, when I wrote whole eggs I should ahve written whole egg products - I was not very clear...maybe shouldnt have replied at 3am! lol
Yes it is possible to obtain untreated cheeses, now in Australia - for about the last 5 years or so. You cannot to my knowledge obtain a raw milk product that isnt not pasturised etc, but you can certainly obtain cheeses that are. This comes form the demand in the food industry to be able to use European products in particular. The product from untreated milk (cow, sheep goat, camel, reindeer) is so far a superior product, and the risk is in fact so minimal, that it is a great disappointment to most of us in the industry that we cannot use a particular goats cheese because it is untreated.
Also there was an interest from many Australian boutique producers that wanted to be able to compete on the international stage with such cheese-producing icons as France, and they can't do that until they were allowed to start from an untreated raw product. This is not the case as yet.
Parmesan, Gruyere and Emmenthal cheese are all raw milk cheeses, although they undergo a temperature treatment during the aging process. Roquefort cheeses however have been allowed. They are a blue cheese that has been excepted from the ban. If a raw milk cheese is determined to be just as safe as the treated product, then it is possible for them to obtain permission to sell it here. So yes, the untreated products are available, albeit on a very limited basis.
Stefano de Pieri did a fantastic segment on making homemade salalmi on his show a few years ago now, on ABC - I will see if I can find the clip somewhere.
Salami's are traditionally made with entrails/offal/off cuts from the slaughtered animal. They are not refridgerated and the process by which they are mixed and moulded is not pretty. They do not make salamis in the traditional fashion here as it is considered 'unsafe'. This is the reference I made to light of stomach! I did make the assumption that many people would find this process difficult to see, if you didn't, then great, but many people still like to believe that their meat grows in plastic trays at the supermarket.
Yes, curing does what normal cooking methods do not, because curing is not a method of cooking but rather a method of preservation. Like salting, drying and smoking. All of which are completely different to each other and any other cooking method. It is considered practically however, if it has been cured, to be cooked (Although not by law). IE not 'raw meat' like you just killed, bled and hung the pig and now you are going to take a bite off its leg, but rather the meat has undergone a process that enables it to be fit for human consumption without the necessity of conventional cooking. I was simply trying to dispell the myth that you need to cook bacon.
This comes from theage website....It is several years old now, but the information is good. Thought it may be interesting
:
Why can't I get ...?
November 2, 2004
Whether it's the food police, our small population or the laws of supply and demand, certain produce is almost impossible to obtain in Australia. John Newton provides some answers.
OK, we know we can't always get what we want, food wise - but why is it so? Is it, as Stephanie Alexander says, because there just aren't enough of us in Australia to justify making all the things we try when we're away and die for when we're home?
Is it the food police - Food Standards Australia New Zealand (FSANZ) and all the others who make the rules that deny us cured ham,
raw-milk cheese and real salami? Or is it that most of just don't know what we're missing?
As Alexander goes on to say: "Most people (in Australia) just aren't that interested in what they eat, so they're not prepared to pay more. If you have a beautifully grown and carefully dressed chicken for $27 sitting next to one for $7, most of us will settle for the cheap bird."
Well, some people won't. We asked them - chefs, providores and home cooks - what they'd like to have in their larders in an ideal Australia, and went in search of the answers.
There's good news among the bad. During the course of our investigations, we were delighted to find that some of the things we thought we couldn't get - we can.
And we should always keep in mind, as Alexander says finally on the subject: "Most things can be got. It's just that you have to know what you're looking for, put in a lot of effort, appreciate the difference and cheerfully pay the price."
Meat
"Beef in England was always aged on the bone (dry-aged) for 21 days," London-trained Andy North, executive chef at Le Restaurant at the Sofitel Melbourne, tells us. "Here, it's usually cryovacced (aged in vacuum-sealed plastic). Why can't I get dry-aged beef?"
He's not the only one asking that. Adrian Richardson of La Luna gave up asking local butchers to dry-age, so he does it himself, hanging up to 16 on-the-bone argentines (short loins and rumps) of beef in the cool room at his restaurant.
Why won't butchers dry-age their beef? Most would say it's too hard and many would say that cryovacced is just as good. Surely, chefs and consumers should be given a choice?
Good news: Help is on its way - from Sydney. Meat wholesaler and supplier to the white tablecloth trade, Vic's Premium Quality Meats, is already sending product to Melbourne restaurants (Circa, Radii, Flower Drum, et cetera). John McGeogh from Vic's says: "We can do it for you; just ask."
To all those chefs - mostly European - grumbling that they can't get white meat veal in Australia - get over it. The European Union defines veal as meat from a bovine animal up to six months old.
What it doesn't say is that to get really white veal, the little critters have to be deprived of iron in their diet and sunshine in their lives, which causes a multitude of animal health problems.
Good news: There is good Australian veal - White Rocks Veal from Western Australia. White Rocks veal comes from 3-4-month-old cattle, which are fed 98 per cent warm, fresh full-cream milk and 2 per cent rolled barley and lupin for roughage, and are housed in pens of 8-10 animals. Unlike American and Dutch products, White Rocks Veal is hormone-free.
Verdict: We're glad we don't get European veal in Australia. Our vealers might have a short life, but it's a happier one.
You'll find White Rocks veal on the menu at Cecconi's and Brasserie at Crown and Interlude in Fitzroy. But alas, not at any Melbourne butcher.
Peter Bouchier at Bouchier's at Malvern Road used to stock it, but stopped because he couldn't sell enough. "I could sell all the racks, but I needed to sell the whole calf."
Good news: Ring Perth butcher and White Rocks distributor Mondo di Carne direct, and they'll air-freight you whatever you want. "We'll move mountains to get it to you," promises Mondo's Vince Garreffa.
Go to mondo.net.au
Smallgoods
Cooks and authors Allan Campion and Michele Curtis have just come back from a fact-finding trip around Europe and report eating "mind-blowingly good prosciutto" at Antonio Carluccio's restaurant in London. "Why can't we get it?" they ask.
Melbourne's matriarch of Chinese food, Elizabeth Chong, misses Yunnan ham. "It would be wonderful to have it here," she says.
These products - and to them we'd add jamon, the Spanish version - are cured: a raw leg of pork is salted, then hung for up to three years.
According to the law, they're not cooked. And although we make versions of both prosciutto and jamon in Australia (as far as we can ascertain, no one makes Yunnan ham here), for a number of reasons (including the breeds of pig used), they are not quite as good as the real thing.
Good news: We asked the spokesperson at the Australian Quarantine and Inspection Service (AQIS) about the persistent rumours that the ban on these products had been lifted.
Guess what? It has. Biosecurity Australia has recently completed an import risk analysis that has concluded prosciutto and jamon and Yunnan ham will be allowed into the country under strict requirements of herd health in the originating country. Score one for commonsense.
Stefano De Pieri wants real salami. The FSANZ Food Standards Code for the production of "uncooked comminuted (chopped, diced or minced) fermented meat" states that "the fermentation of (salami) must be initiated through the use of a starter culture".
The starter culture stipulated is a concentrated powder of freeze-dried lactic acid bacteria. Real salami in the way that De Pieri would define it is allowed to ferment naturally.
Artisan smallgoods maker Pino Tomini-Foresti, of Sydney, wants to make salami the way his family has made it for generations.
"Anyone can make a salami in seven days using phosphates, starters and dextrose," Tomini-Foresti says, "but mine is a pure handmade product. I have proved (to authorities) my product is as safe as the one made with the manufactured starter. They said that's not good enough."
Verdict: Why can't artisan smallgoods makers be licensed and provided with Hazard Analysis Critical Control Path (HACCP) systems to allow them to make smallgoods safely, by hand, the traditional way?
"We miss fresh foie gras," says Andy North. He's only allowed to import semi-cooked foie gras, which is cooked at a slightly higher temperature than the fresh: the less you cook it, the better the flavour.
We ask Biosecurity Australia (BA) why. "There are three poultry diseases of concern here," the BA spokesperson tells us: exotic strains of avian influenza, Newcastle disease and the really scary one, infectious bursal disease virus - and France harbours a particularly virulent strain.
Verdict: Fair enough. A small price to pay for the protection of our poultry industry.
Poultry
North wants hung game, too. In Europe, partridges, pheasants, even hares and rabbits, are "hung", that is, left in a cool place whole - or as the saying goes, "gut in, feathers on" - for at least a week.
CEO of PrimeSafe Victoria, Brian Casey, warns: "You have to eviscerate (gut) all birds within the hour," he tells us, "for obvious reasons. The viscera present major health problems and promote the growth of bacteria."
When we suggest there seems to be no problem with this method in Europe, Casey answers: "I'm here to apply Australian standards, not European standards."
Alan Rundell, of Gamekeepers Australia, raises and sells game birds in Gippsland. He has a slightly different take on the problem from that of Casey. "The food standards industry," he says, "has been taken over by microbiologists. All they know is to say no. If they only knew that if you hung a pheasant for a week at the right temperature there's less likelihood of that bird deteriorating - for every feather you pluck there's a hole that lets in bacteria."
Verdict: Once again, why not license experienced producers?
Good news: North misses the big magrets (breasts) of barbary duck he used to serve in England. In Australia, the barbary duck is known as a muscovy, and Vic's has Meadows muscovy ducks from NSW ready to deliver to his kitchen. They're not as big as the English ones, but the flavour is superb. For the home table, go to The Chicken Pantry at Queen Victoria Markets, where Janine Hunt is selling a muscovy from the Barossa.
Finally, Sydney chef Tony Bilson, of Bilson's, asks: "Why can't we get capons (castrated ****s, highly fancied for their superior flavour)?"
Sort of good news: When we start asking about capons, we discover the only problem in getting them is producing them. Geoff Fairbrother, of the Australian Chicken Meat Federation, says: "We used to castrate them chemically until the banning of hormones in the 1960s. There's no reason why you can't do it. It's just a matter of finding someone to do it manually."
If anyone knows how to castrate a **** manually, and can teach others the skill, please let us know. Because Bilson isn't the only cook who'll be excited at the prospect of a capon on the table.
Fruit & veg
"It's hard to get good tomatoes," says Nicholas Miriklis from Melbourne-based provedore, The Vegetable Connection, "because most farmers grow things for two reasons. Either the supermarkets demand it - 'we take the volume, you grow what we want for transport and shelf life' - or they grow a variety that yields prolifically. Having said all that, you can get good tomatoes - you just have to know where to find them."
Professor Barry McGlasson, of the Centre for Horticulture and Plant Science at the University of Western Sydney, agrees with Miriklis' last point. He's been working on improving tomato flavour for 30 years.
"There's been an enormous improvement in quality because of improved varieties and a greater awareness of the technical requirements of post-harvest handling," he says. Which basically means that tomatoes are no longer picked green, refrigerated and blasted with ethylene gas to sort of ripen them when they get to where they're going.
For Professor McGlasson, the keys to flavour are the level of soluble solids and the growing temperature. He says: "A Mediterranean climate is best - from 18-28C - which makes the country around Perth the ideal growing climate in Australia.
"You can bring out the best flavour if you select tomatoes with a good red colour, then leave them in a cool place in the kitchen - not full sunlight - for 6-7 days. Only when they're ripe should you put them in the fridge."
Verdict: There's no doubt that Australian tomato flavour is improving. Call us old-fashioned, but we still think tomatoes taste better in Southern Europe. You'll find good tomatoes in Melbourne from Cameron Russell, Stall 83 at the Queen Victoria Markets, and Damien Pike, The Mushroom Specialist, Stall 116 at Prahran Markets.
In summer - from January - try the tomatoes from the Kennedy Family Farm at Veg Out Market at St Kilda; Leonie Bessant at Collingwood Children's Farm Farmers' Market; and the Doncaster tomatoes and Adelaide rounds from Toscano's at Kew.
To everyone who asked, we can't find a San Marzano tomato (the famed variety from the town of the same name in Calabria) anywhere, although we suspect there are probably some beauties lurking in backyards.
Stone fruit is another cause for concern among chefs and provedores.
Sydney provedore Matt Brown, of Brown's Greens, says: "Why can't shoppers get good stone fruit?
Firstly, because getting fruit from the farm to the home is a rough business - the more successful hybrids are the ones that can handle the jostle, and they're not always the most flavoursome. And secondly, the latest fad for the super-sweet, acid-free fruit is a bloody disaster - it's like eating a bag of sweet water.
"My advice? Form a relationship with your greengrocer. Tell them this super-sweet stuff is rubbish."
Professor McGlasson tells us methods of transporting fruit have been improved.
Verdict: Let's wait and see if the new methods work. If they don't, harass your greengrocer.
Seafood
"In Queensland I ate fresh baby cuttlefish," De Pieri says. "It's much better than calamari. When we order it, it comes frozen. Why can't I get it fresh?"
Good news: "It's more a function of the conservative Melbourne fish market, I'm afraid," Sydney-based seafood supplier John Susman tells us.
"We've had the biggest run of cuttlefish for 20 years (around Australia) ... get him (De Pieri) to call me."
Paul Wilson, of The Botanical, is another Brit Pack chef with fond memories of home. He says: "I'd love to find naturally smoked haddock, not dyed. I like the salmon here, but wish there were other smoked fish.
And New Zealand turbot - why aren't they more available?"
Good news: Richard Harris, of Springs Traditional Smoked Seafoods in the Adelaide Hills, tells us he brings in about 400kg of frozen haddock every three months and smokes it.
"And he (Wilson) can have it undyed," he says. (Chefs and other smoked haddock lovers should call Brian Bell at Bellco Distributors on 9329 9722.)
As for the New Zealand turbot, it's not really a turbot, it's actually a sand dab and the reason it's in short supply now is that a large part of the European flatfish fishery off the East German coast has been closed (due to overfishing) and the Europeans are importing the New Zealand substitute.
Raw-milk cheese
It's at the top of everyone's wish list, and here's the bottom line from FSANZ: "The Food Standards Code requires generally that cheese sold in Australia and New Zealand must be made from pasteurised milk.
Alternatively, the milk can be thermised, which is a less severe heat treatment than pasteurisation, and the cheese matured for at least 90 days. The requirement to pasteurise milk is a public health measure."
Good news: There has been some movement. "FSANZ, however, has approved the sale of very hard grating cheeses and some Swiss hard cheeses made from raw milk following a scientific assessment that demonstrated that these cheeses could be produced to an equivalent level of safety as those made using pasteurised milk.
"It is possible that other raw-milk cheeses could be allowed if an application is made to FSANZ and it is demonstrated that they can be consistently produced to an equivalent level of safety as cheese made from pasteurised milk.
"FSANZ is assessing such an application from the French Government for roquefort cheese, which is made from raw milk."
The raw-milk cheeses currently allowed into the country include parmigiano and grana padano from Italy and emmentaler, gruyere, sbrinz and tilsiter from Switzerland.
Verdict: Keep up the pressure for both imported - and domestic - raw-milk cheese.
THE FOOD POLICE
Who are the food police and what do they do?
? Food Standards Australia New Zealand (FSANZ): This body sets and reviews food standards in Australia and New Zealand, and puts them into the Food Standards Code, which covers the manufacture and labelling of foods, food additives, processing aids, novel foods, genetically modified foods and irradiated foods. If, for example, you are a manufacturer and you want to use alpha-cyclodextrin as a novel food, you apply to FSANZ.
? Biosecurity Australia develops quarantine policies that protect the health of Australia's agricultural industries and natural environment from exotic pests and diseases and allow safe trade. Biosecurity Australia also works on behalf of Australian farmers to open up new markets by securing quarantine conditions for Australian agricultural exports. (From the organisation's website - we couldn't put it any better ourselves.)
? PrimeSafe Victoria is the body in charge of regulating the safety of meat, poultry, seafood and pet meat and food. Like all these state bodies, PrimeSafe implements the code set down by FSANZ, the differences lying in the strictness with which the code is implemented. CEO Brian Casey, when questioned about interpretation, says, flatly: "The current standard is the current standard."
? Australian Quarantine Inspection Service (AQIS): If you try to smuggle in a raw-milk cheese or natural salami or anything on the banned list, these are the folk who will get you. They're on the front line at our border, enforcing food regulations.
Lime Slice, thank so much for this article. It is indeed interesting.
Sorry I must have misread your first post where you talked about the "whole eggs" and "cooked ham/bacon". In thought you were correcting earlier posts of mine.
And with regards to home made salami. I agree with you on the "real" salami production possibly offending a lot of people. But when I googled "home-made salami" what I came up with was a whole lot of recipes that pretty much were just a meat loaf type thing, where mince, spices and liquid smoke and curing salt was mixed, wrapped in aluminium foil, then baked in the oven for a couple o hours.
But yes, real salami, with it's moldy outer would probably be a different thing to watch. Although I'm sure any sausage production would turn most of us off. Did anyone see the poultry show that Jamie Oliver did a year or so ago? Now the part about mechanically reclaimed meat (MRM) was a real turn off for me. Much more so than using offal. But maybe growing up in Europe does desensitise you little bit...
Thanks for your input, very much appreciated.
Saša
Oh! I didnt mean to sound like I was attacking you at all! There just seemed to be some incomplete information floating through this whole thread and a few others on this subject and felt I should try and give a clearer picture. :)
lol - Growing up in Europe would be interesting when you come to Australia and see how anal we seem to be about food safety!
chickens are one thing I feel quite strongly about. In WA we have a great farm/brand called MtBarker. All their chicken are free range, organic chickens. Yes they are more expensive but hey taste so much better and I know they are treated with respect.
So back on topic!! Yes you can eat ham, bacon, deli meats....just eat them fresh and store them correctly and you should be fine.
Alexis, I didn't see it as an attack.
And yes, I agree with you, I only ever buy free range, hormone free chicken and eggs. And it's not that much more expensive. I feel like I'm voting with my feet. And I honestly think it tastes better.
And what I meant about growing up in Europe desensitising me was referring to the use of offal, not really hygiene standards as I believe the hygiene standards in Germany (where I grew up) are just as high as here. But I grew up eating liver and tripe and things like that, so they don't turn me off.
You refer to "us in the industry" do you mind me asking what your role is in the industry? Just curious.
Saša
Sasa, I am a chef.
Used to do a lot of work in nursing homes and aged care, before going to pubs and finally, before I had Charlotte spent a couple of years in a 5 star restaurant in Perth.
I bet your family is very spoilt :)
That's true. When I worked in the deli we would cube up all the ham left on the bone and put it in our potato salad. We never used anything that was expired though I don't know about other delis (we had very high standards for everything as we were a gourmet deli).:
Thanks for the info. All reputable comanies that handle food will have a policy on how often the staff must change their gloves (at McDonalds - which isn't exactly reputable lol! - the staff are required to change their gloves at least hourly). I agree though that asking staff to change them anyway is a great idea and totally worth the potential for awkwardness.:
P.S.
How much do you hate it when silly people wear gloves but handle money as well as food? :wall:
NJ - So frustrating!! lol
Unfortunately though an hour isnt good enough.(And most supervisors have no idea how long individual staff have been wearing their gloves, ergo no way to enforce such a policy effectively.) If you washed your hands only once an hour when handling food, you would kill people! The premise is that you should change your gloves as often as you would wash your hands. However, given that you cannot feel how dirty your hands are, or how sticky from chicken juice, or mayonnaise they are, you will be less inclined to change your gloves iykwim. So most people don't. Particularly younger less experienced staff, or people who aren't 'career' food workers. Gloves tend to be seen as a prevention of hand germs, a way to placate people who you happen to be serving at that time who see them and think "Wow, they are wearing gloves, that must be hygienic!" As I said though, it is more often the case that those gloved hands have made 3 people sandwiches before yours, have open and closed fridges and tongs handled by other staff, and possibly even handled several different exchanges of money.
Most chefs you speak to refuse to wear them for this very reason - it is simply cleaner and more effective in disease prevention to wash ones hands than to wear gloves.
Most food danger comes not from expired or rotten food but from the incompetency of the people handling the product
NJ, I don't think I would classify using the ham that's left on the bone as something unappetising. The ham that's left on the bone is usually really tasty, but because it's so close to the bone, it's impossible to slice in a presentable fashion. Unless it's also out of date, I wouldn't think of it as a bad thing not to waste that.
And about that glove thing: I have seen that so many times that people were wearing gloves, than they pick up a rag to wipe up a spill and make the next sanwich without changing the gloves. Or as LS has mentioned, handle money in between. I always had to shake my head when thos same people tell me that they wear them for hygiene reasons.
Saša