Right.
Registered User
Yes, we all have butt cheeks. Most of us have labia, and nipples, and pubic hair too. We let urine drain from our urethra and push a poo out of our anus, very natural things, rarely done in public. Natural doesn't necessarily mean on display. Society dictates there is a time and place for our body parts to be on display and I think we need to learn when it is ok and when it isn't. Obviously, it wasn't OK in Dianne's house today, according to Dianne. There is a difference between teaching our kids not to be ashamed of their body, and when to cover their body. IMHO.
Registered User
Right.
Registered User
And a few of us agreed that it was not Dianne's place to teach her that difference, especially because she (Dianne) was distressed about it and that's the best time to get wires crossed and really stuff things up.
Bringing elimination into the fray was not necessary, Marushke, but go ahead and be extreme. I wasn't talking about 'natural', I was talking about normal. I bet those teenage boys have seen their fair share of bum cheek that wasn't as 'appropriate'. Same with DH. It was a missed opportunity to tell them to get over themselves and realise that a bum cheek on a 9yo is a world away from the bum cheek they'll see on a magazine in a service station.
I know of people who are embarrassed when someone breastfeeds in their home and refuses the offer of a 'private room'. The 'offence' taken there is not dissimilar here.
Last edited by Smoke Jaguar; January 2nd, 2012 at 09:01 PM. : changing 'she' for name, for clarity
Registered User
Actually I am not being extreme, just making a point that we have natural bodies and processes that aren't always suitable for public display. Some people believe that includes butt cheeks, some people don't. I happen to believe that it isn't suitable for a 9 year old.
I don't believe that by putting shorts on this 9 year old, her body image was being corrected, perhaps the sense of when to display and when not to might have been corrected though.
And yes, it's a shame that Dianne was put in this position in the first place, I would have rather the parent corrected this image, but it is what it is.
No hard feelings, I just disagree with you.
Registered User
Well said.
Registered User
As a side note, and insight into a very conservative household: my father won't allow us to change nappies in front of him, nor will he allow my 2.5 year old (and her 1.5 year old cousin) to play under the sprinkler or in the pool unless they are fully dressed, even if it is just us at home. No nudity even in toddlers is permitted. They wear pants over their undies and singlets under their tops at his house. Takes all types to make the world go round I guess...
Registered User
I just think it's horses for courses.
If I go to a country that has a modest dress code, I cover up.
If I go to a friend's pool where they were bathers, I wear bathers, my girls will wear bathers.
If I go to my yoghurt-knitting, weed-smoking, dyke (their terminology) friends' house and they want to wear nothing in the pool, hey, I'll probably skinny dip myself.
We all have different views on what's appropriate and I'm happy to fit in with whatever those views are TBH.
Moderator
I agree! As an aside, I am interested in knowing more about yoghurt knitting
Registered User
As far as I'm aware, kids are still allowed to be kids in many people's Islamic belief, and that it's at puberty that 'appropriateness' changes. Plus, had the parent been aware of Dianne's family being muslim, I'm tipping she may have even sounded out what the convention is at her place. Or, Dianne, to be fair on an unsuspecting family, may have even given a tactful heads up, instead of letting them fall into a trap of arbitrary judgment.
When people come to visit, you don't always vet that they'll have the same standards as you. It's not how I choose my friends, anyway - mine are all sorts of standards, and when they disempower or reduce someone's humanity that's where I draw a line. And my friends kinda know that sort of fundamental standard about me.
It's not exactly a 'when in Rome' situation - she was dropped off and the mother, clearly, was not informed that a grown man and two teenage boys would be sent spare at the sight of a 9yo's bum cheeks. I didn't even know that could happen till today.
Marushke, I said I was glad she DIDN'T pass on her foibles about 'nudity' and that it remained as benign as sharing a pair of shorts. Hopefully the 9yo is too young to read between the lines, for her own sake.
My own parents have been challenged by how I let the kids get about. They were sent into a moral spin because DD didn't wear nappies at all and was practicing elimination communication. How dare I challenge their assumptions about how things ought to be done! And they did expect me to change the way I did things just because of them...in their house, in my house, wherever. Will I pass on to my kids a sense that their bodies are for covering up to spare the grown adults? Not on your well-covered up nelly! The buck of shame stops here! And, yes, I grew up infused with a great deal of shame about bodies, so, no thanks, I don't think it's healthy.
I believe threads like this may also help others in a more generalised fashion - there will be people now, who having read this thread, will be considering their own assumptions and perhaps implementing a preamble to private pool invites from here on in. T'was not all in vain
Last edited by Smoke Jaguar; January 2nd, 2012 at 08:54 PM.
Registered User
I'm sorry, but that's a very disrespectful to Dianne - where did she say they would be sent spare? Honestly everyone's entitled to an opinion, but surely, we can all find ways to express them without being so condescending and downright rude?was not informed that a grown man and two teenage boys would be sent spare at the sight of a 9yo's bum cheeks. I didn't even know that could happen till today.
Registered User
the only thing I can add to this conversation is, if you don't feel comfortable raising the issue with the mother, maybe don't invite this child over for a swim anymore. I mean, you can't keep offering her shorts to wear, but you can't feel uncomfortable in your own home either. Personally it wouldn't bother me to the extent where I felt I needed to change what she was wearing, but I don't have teenage boys in the house that I need to consider either.
Registered User
Ausgirl, they were hiding in their rooms...it's a bit extreme, and according to Dianne because they were so mortified by it. That was what was said in the OP.
Registered User
Mayaness you really are taking this a bit too far by judging me like this and you havn't even got your facts right. I'm not Muslim and I never said my boys were mortified, they are teenagers who were embarassed.
Regards,
Dianne
Registered User
Dianne
If you have rules for clothing in your house, then if you invite people over for a swim, you should inform them of the acceptable clothing standards required. Your house, your rules.
As for me personally, wouldn't have a problem with it, nudity is normal for me and luckily for me when I was growing up, heck I still see my siblings and their children naked now.
Registered User
Oh, dear, Dianne - I never said you were muslim! Someone else asked what if you were, and my answer was that it probably would have played out very differently!
By the way, simply noting what I have isn't called 'judgment'. It's probing, probably challenges you and it's NOT judgment. if you prefer the way you reacted then keep with what works for you. Just be fair on others who may not be fully aware of what your social mores are, because you very nearly ruined at least one person's day (and potentially, rest of her childhood). I'm really glad (as I previously stated) that you posted here before acting. Sincerely. And not for your sake.
Registered User
Mayaness - I don't think that Dianne suggesting she should put shorts on would be enough to potentially ruin the rest of her childhood! That is such an extreme overreaction. Even suggesting it might ruin her day without knowing more about the little girls personality is an overreaction. She may have not even thought twice about the situation, you just don't know.
FWIW Dianne I think the way you handled the situation was fine, and I would have done the same thing.
At the end of the day surely it's better for you to address the issue with minimum fuss and potential embarrassment for the girl, and now if she mentions it to her mum, it may make her mum think twice about what she has her daughter wear out in the future. If nothing is done, and she were to go to the beach or a public pool, imagine how cruel strangers and other kids might be - surely that would be so much more damaging to her self esteem.
Registered User
I think if you have advised Dianne to analyse her family's reaction to this Mayaness, then you should also analyse your own reaction to a thread on a website. It seems to be very important to you to evangelise on this point and to me, that is an over-reaction too.
Registered User
People, people - I said that just putting the shorts on was a GOOD thing and AVOIDED complications. READ what I wrote with your eyes instead of your emotions!
Oh, dear, Fionas, there's a 'should'...
Who's evangelising? She came here with a problem and because I didn't come over all "there, there. There, there. Perfectly understandable, that mother was in the wrong and you and your ideas that don't quite make sense are perfectly ok need to be respected and intuited by sixth sense by other parents sending their kids to you" I am 'evangelising'. Interesting.
Bookmarks