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Well said.
As a side note, and insight into a very conservative household: my father won't allow us to change nappies in front of him, nor will he allow my 2.5 year old (and her 1.5 year old cousin) to play under the sprinkler or in the pool unless they are fully dressed, even if it is just us at home. No nudity even in toddlers is permitted. They wear pants over their undies and singlets under their tops at his house. Takes all types to make the world go round I guess...
I just think it's horses for courses.
If I go to a country that has a modest dress code, I cover up.
If I go to a friend's pool where they were bathers, I wear bathers, my girls will wear bathers.
If I go to my yoghurt-knitting, weed-smoking, dyke (their terminology) friends' house and they want to wear nothing in the pool, hey, I'll probably skinny dip myself.
We all have different views on what's appropriate and I'm happy to fit in with whatever those views are TBH.
I agree! As an aside, I am interested in knowing more about yoghurt knitting ;):
As far as I'm aware, kids are still allowed to be kids in many people's Islamic belief, and that it's at puberty that 'appropriateness' changes. Plus, had the parent been aware of Dianne's family being muslim, I'm tipping she may have even sounded out what the convention is at her place. Or, Dianne, to be fair on an unsuspecting family, may have even given a tactful heads up, instead of letting them fall into a trap of arbitrary judgment.
When people come to visit, you don't always vet that they'll have the same standards as you. It's not how I choose my friends, anyway - mine are all sorts of standards, and when they disempower or reduce someone's humanity that's where I draw a line. And my friends kinda know that sort of fundamental standard about me.
It's not exactly a 'when in Rome' situation - she was dropped off and the mother, clearly, was not informed that a grown man and two teenage boys would be sent spare at the sight of a 9yo's bum cheeks. I didn't even know that could happen till today.
Marushke, I said I was glad she DIDN'T pass on her foibles about 'nudity' and that it remained as benign as sharing a pair of shorts. Hopefully the 9yo is too young to read between the lines, for her own sake.
My own parents have been challenged by how I let the kids get about. They were sent into a moral spin because DD didn't wear nappies at all and was practicing elimination communication. How dare I challenge their assumptions about how things ought to be done! And they did expect me to change the way I did things just because of them...in their house, in my house, wherever. Will I pass on to my kids a sense that their bodies are for covering up to spare the grown adults? Not on your well-covered up nelly! The buck of shame stops here! And, yes, I grew up infused with a great deal of shame about bodies, so, no thanks, I don't think it's healthy.
I believe threads like this may also help others in a more generalised fashion - there will be people now, who having read this thread, will be considering their own assumptions and perhaps implementing a preamble to private pool invites from here on in. T'was not all in vain :)
I'm sorry, but that's a very disrespectful to Dianne - where did she say they would be sent spare? Honestly everyone's entitled to an opinion, but surely, we can all find ways to express them without being so condescending and downright rude?:
was not informed that a grown man and two teenage boys would be sent spare at the sight of a 9yo's bum cheeks. I didn't even know that could happen till today.
the only thing I can add to this conversation is, if you don't feel comfortable raising the issue with the mother, maybe don't invite this child over for a swim anymore. I mean, you can't keep offering her shorts to wear, but you can't feel uncomfortable in your own home either. Personally it wouldn't bother me to the extent where I felt I needed to change what she was wearing, but I don't have teenage boys in the house that I need to consider either.
Ausgirl, they were hiding in their rooms...it's a bit extreme, and according to Dianne because they were so mortified by it. That was what was said in the OP.
Mayaness you really are taking this a bit too far by judging me like this and you havn't even got your facts right. I'm not Muslim and I never said my boys were mortified, they are teenagers who were embarassed.
Regards,
Dianne
Dianne
If you have rules for clothing in your house, then if you invite people over for a swim, you should inform them of the acceptable clothing standards required. Your house, your rules.
As for me personally, wouldn't have a problem with it, nudity is normal for me and luckily for me when I was growing up, heck I still see my siblings and their children naked now.
Oh, dear, Dianne - I never said you were muslim! Someone else asked what if you were, and my answer was that it probably would have played out very differently!
By the way, simply noting what I have isn't called 'judgment'. It's probing, probably challenges you and it's NOT judgment. if you prefer the way you reacted then keep with what works for you. Just be fair on others who may not be fully aware of what your social mores are, because you very nearly ruined at least one person's day (and potentially, rest of her childhood). I'm really glad (as I previously stated) that you posted here before acting. Sincerely. And not for your sake.
Mayaness - I don't think that Dianne suggesting she should put shorts on would be enough to potentially ruin the rest of her childhood! That is such an extreme overreaction. Even suggesting it might ruin her day without knowing more about the little girls personality is an overreaction. She may have not even thought twice about the situation, you just don't know.
FWIW Dianne I think the way you handled the situation was fine, and I would have done the same thing.
At the end of the day surely it's better for you to address the issue with minimum fuss and potential embarrassment for the girl, and now if she mentions it to her mum, it may make her mum think twice about what she has her daughter wear out in the future. If nothing is done, and she were to go to the beach or a public pool, imagine how cruel strangers and other kids might be - surely that would be so much more damaging to her self esteem.
I think if you have advised Dianne to analyse her family's reaction to this Mayaness, then you should also analyse your own reaction to a thread on a website. It seems to be very important to you to evangelise on this point and to me, that is an over-reaction too.
People, people - I said that just putting the shorts on was a GOOD thing and AVOIDED complications. READ what I wrote with your eyes instead of your emotions!
Oh, dear, Fionas, there's a 'should'... ;)
Who's evangelising? She came here with a problem and because I didn't come over all "there, there. There, there. Perfectly understandable, that mother was in the wrong and you and your ideas that don't quite make sense are perfectly ok need to be respected and intuited by sixth sense by other parents sending their kids to you" I am 'evangelising'. Interesting.
Yes, there was a should. Simply asking you to examine your reactions or in your words, "probing". Is that a more acceptable word to you :)?
I could very well examine my reaction. I have, and I'm pretty ok with the robustness of my logic and my defence of the naked form and it's normality, it's neutrality and it's lack of blame for moral corruption. Thanks, anyway :)
ETA: If the mother had KNOWN of the tail spin it would send Dianne into, THAT would be rude and inappropriate.
Mayaness, I don't think anyone has a problem with your view (at least, I dont) but in some instances your tone and choice of words could be mistaken for condescending and provocative. You may not intend this but in your efforts to be tolerant of the naked human body, you have been a little intolerant of Dianne's point of view.
You, and half the people on this forum may be totally fine with nudity, semi-nudity, whatever...but the other half may not be.
Exactly n2l.
^ that!:
The POV is not the problem I have - it's in expecting other people to know what that is without actually communicating it. We live in a world where covering up for 'decency' is not the social expectation anymore, and where we have healthier views about 'nudity'. Breastfeeding in public, for example. Or BFing is someone else's home. If I knew my host had a problem with it, I'd avoid their house. It's in the forewarning, or lack thereof.
Seriously enough! Move on people.
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But if they know Dianne and her family, then they should have some idea of what may or may not be ok to wear in her home.
And if they don't know Dianne and her family that well, they should make an effort to find out, or perhaps assume she should cover up more than usual the first time until they can suss it out.
Just because Dianne has a stance on what is acceptable dress in her home, doesn't mean she has to tell everyone before they come over - it goes both ways!!
Just like if I go somewhere and they are not comfortable with me breatstfeeding in front of them - if they have no problem, I'd feed in their company, but if they were uncomfortable I'd ask for a place I could go. I wouldn't stop going to a friend or family member's place just because of something like that. Just as its acceptable for me to have my own preferences and standards and expect people to respect it, I also have to respect their wishes (within reason) and not 'punish' them for not agreeing with me.
Bathers usually cover your bum. She sent her over with bathers (so acknowledging that's the done thing at Dianne's house) just that they were half-arsed ones, pardon the pun.
Tee hee, F ;)
You'd avoid a friends house because they didn't feel comfortable with your kids being naked? Respect for a different way of seeing things or bringing up kids goes both ways. I actually agree with most of the points you've made Mayaness but sorry you had to be so disrespectful in making them.
Mayaness since I nearly ruined a child's life maybe I need to clear some things up. I have nothing against nudity, if that's what you are into, fine. DD10 still undresses in front of her brothers, last night she was walking around without her top on. Soon when she starts puberty and develops I will not allow her to do that anymore because I would like to teach her modesty. I walk around the house in my nickers but I wouldn't wear a g-string in front of my children. To me it's like telling my DD to cross her legs when she is wearing a dress, heck, at school they need to wear bike shorts under their dresses. My initial reaction was to not let this little girl get embarassed, not about my DH and boys. Being already well developed for her age it could have been very awkward for her in what she was wearing, I didn't mind whilst in the pool but when they come inside to play, bending over etc. If I was going to put my family first I wouldn't have started this thread asking for advice.
Regards,
Dianne
So if it isn't about sexuality than how is it inappropriate?:
There are many reasons people feel uncomfortable with nudity apart from sexual reasons. It seems inappropriate to me because of the stage she is at, that by that age I expect some kind of awareness of privacy of your body. I'd be worried about what others might think if they saw the goings on, and I would be concerned that the child would be embarrassed if she were aware of how much was on display.:
My body is really private, and if it were on display, I'd feel it was inappropriate. Not because people might have sexual thoughts about me (ha!), but because something treasured and intimate and private to me was on display.
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