"With Choice Comes Responsibility"

[Bathsheba]

How do you define this often quoted statement?

THIS thread recently raised the issue.

Also... in that thread I gave the example of Adam and Eve being warned that their choice to eat the Apple of Knowledge meant that there will be responsibilities that they may not like. Is there a parallel analogy in other faiths?

Do you find that people want the choice but not the responsibility? Do you struggle with any aspect in life where you feel that you have or don't have enough choice or that you have too much choice?

Personally I really struggle in the breakfast cereal aisle... (for more on that read the linked thread LOL). When given too much choice I often put in place self imposed limitations. I find I am doing that more and more in life. I also feel that as a member of an affluent Western society that the onus is on me to take my choices quite seriously. Somebody in a 3rd world country doesn't have the choice as to what breakfast cereal they eat... they are just lucky to get some! So, I dunno, maybe I should think about stuff like Food Miles etc that influence climate change... Or, when buying clothes maybe I should opt for the T-Shirt that is made under a Fair Wage scheme and costs $5 more than a cheapie T-Shirt made in India by a 6yo girl who should be at school. Know what I mean?

Take this thread in any direction you want... the above is just some suggested directions

[Bathsheba]

...of course you can also just talk about how it relates to the choices we make in the way we birth our babies

[Mummato2]

I welcome this thread because I think that regarding Child Birth that is a fairly accurate statement.

IMHO, choice does bring with it responsibility of consequence and we are now in a generation that is on the brink of watching Maternity Choices reform in a dramatic way, but are women really ready and willing to take on the responsibility over the decisions she will inevitably have to make?

I gave an example on that linked thread where a woman felt the urge to push at 7cms, was told not to, did anyway, felt intense pain, asked for the epidural, continued to push and ended up with a torn cervix. The kicker was she blamed the epidural and OB for her cervix tearing. She actually used the words "it was the cascade of intervention that followed my epidural that caused my cervix to tear"

There is no shame in asking for an epidural in childbirth. There is no shame in CHOOSING and MAKING informed decisions, there is no shame in having many birthing options available to us - but have the balls to back your decisions and take responsibility for the choice you make.

It would be the same scenario if Australia finally allowed access to ALL models of Maternity Services to every Australian woman.......a high risk woman is adamant she wants a Home Birth (let's for arguments sake say her risk is related to a hemorrhaging condition). OB strongly advises her to have a hospital birth and assisted third stage - but she demands her choice of a Home Birth and physiological third stage.......midwife supports this birth and her choice and it goes terribly wrong....

Who is at fault? Who should take responsibility for the decision?

- The woman who wants her ideal birth scenario and believes it to be a safe choice, after all she's read the pros and cons and it seemed a manageable situation. Plus, OB's are known for high intervention so she believed the advice given was to control her choice.......she'd read enough stats etc and even though she doesn't have a medical degree she considers it an informed choice?

- The OB for not taking the reins and limiting her choice knowing the danger?

OR

- The midwife who supported a woman in a high risk and obviously dangerous situation because she works within the philosophy of freedom of choice?

I ask this NOT to diminish the importance of reform for Birth Choices in Australia because it's clear that we desperately are behind the eight ball - but to evoke an honest appraisal of where the responsibility should lie WHEN we see the reform come into play.

At what point do we trust the word of the medical professionals to do the right thing and guide us to the right choice and at what point do we make these decisions ourselves?

My personal example is: in my first pregnancy I was considered high risk because of a drug I was taking for Insulin Resistance. I was induced at 38 weeks because I was considered in the same boat as a diabetic (even though the condition is NOT the same) and I was threatened with a c-section within the first hour of monitoring before the induction started.

I adamantly refused the c-section, made them put in an internal scalp clip to monitor my son's heartrate and gave birth to a healthy boy WITH NO ISSUES THEY SAID HE'D HAVE 5 hours later.

The induction in hindsight was probably unwarranted, the c-section scare was definitely unwarranted, I asked for all the drugs in the world and wound up with a beautiful epidural that lasted 5 hours after I gave birth

I accept responsibility for my decision to take the drugs. I accept responsibility for turning up for the induction that morning. I accept responsibility for declining the c-section.

I accept responsibility for my decision to Home Birth / Birth Centre birth this child that's due in 4 weeks........I accept responsibility for going against the advice of 2 OB's stressing to me that I was putting my baby in danger for not consenting to another 38 week induction.

I found a Birthing Centre, Midwife AND OB to support my decision and whatever happens it's MY decision - my birth choice was not taken away from me.

It's also in the same vain that I choose NOT to vaccinate my children (I DO NOT want this to be a pro vs against vaccination debate - it's merely a point) and take responsibility for the consequences of that decision - probably the hardest decision of my life.......

With choice comes huge responsibility.....absolutely, but who's ultimately responsible in Birth Choices?

[BrightSparkles]

I find this with SOME people who are pregnant.

We have a girl at work who is pregnant (due 3 weeks before me). The way I see it - she made the choice to keep this baby, so now instead of complaining and milking it for EVERYTHING (and when I say everything i'm really not exaggerating - things like not going to a christmas lunch put on by work in an aircon venue because "it's just too strenous ) she needs to take responsibility to her choice and take the good with the bad. Yep- having a baby is an AWESOME experience, yes - we get tired when we are pregnant, yes- the heat makes us feel 10x worse, yes - we get a sore back/tummy and anything else but as I said, you made the choice now deal with the responsibility and the consequences (good and bad) that come with this.
Yes - I know I occasionally complain about how much i'm aching, or how the heat is affecting me,but you know what - I also take responsibility for the choice i made to have a baby, suck it up and keep going.

Having a baby is a privledge not a right - but hey - thats just how i feel about it.

[Lolli]

I'm due to wash the dye out of my hair, so I'll be back later. But I was discussing this very issue with my mum yesterday- people seem to want everything in the world, but refuse to take responsibility for their own desicions, and the consequences of them. We live in a 'nanny state' which is reiforced by everyone blaming someone or something else for every little thing, and not taking ownership for anything and then often using ignorance as an excuse. I hate to say, but in this day and age ignorance can not be used an excuse for much- if you don't know the consequences of your actions, it is responsibility to research and consider them fully before you make a desicion (given, of course, that the situation allows you the time to do that).

[Nelle]

I agree that ignorance is less of a valid excuse for poor decision making these days, but inexperience I think still is. Inexperience is what causes me not to listen to people or take advice or causes me to listen to the wrong people. I think that responsibility is something that needs to be learned. Ideally it's learned as we grow, but there are areas, perhaps for all of us, where we still need to learn responsibility. And sometimes to be responsible requires discipline, which I think is also a learnt quality. And because it's a learning issue, we all learn things differently. Some can learn from the hard lesson, others respond to gentleness and patience, some learn quickly and others make mistakes again and again before they learn.

I'm a good case of this, many things I learn quickly, but because I lack discipline I also lack responsibility in some things (ask anyone who has had to wait for me). I know that it's not courteous or thoughtful to make people wait, but I still choose to meet with people, and I am chronically late.
I think that life is grey, which makes this topic so grey - there are usually many aspects to each choice. Yes, I annoy people when I'm late (and OT but I have to say I'm so blessed with friends who are patient with me, hopefully they understand that I do respect and love them and am working towards discipline and change!), but it's also good for me and my children to go out. So one irresponsible choice also is a responsible choice.

Similarly, when I buy eggs, often I buy cage eggs - now I am passionate about free range stuff, so in terms of animal rights it's an irresponsible choice, but in terms of my family budget where things can be incredibly tight, especially after Christmas, my choice is financially responsible.

I guess what I'm saying in a rambly way, is that when a choice seems irresponsible to us, it's possible we're seeing it from a different angle to the person involved. Some people may consider an elective C/S the less responsible choice, but it's possible there is another angle where the choice could be viewed as responsible.

[Mummato2]

I'm due to wash the dye out of my hair, so I'll be back later. But I was discussing this very issue with my mum yesterday- people seem to want everything in the world, but refuse to take responsibility for their own desicions, and the consequences of them. We live in a 'nanny state' which is reiforced by everyone blaming someone or something else for every little thing, and not taking ownership for anything and then often using ignorance as an excuse. I hate to say, but in this day and age ignorance can not be used an excuse for much- if you don't know the consequences of your actions, it is responsibility to research and consider them fully before you make a desicion (given, of course, that the situation allows you the time to do that).

Absolutely. I think a big part of this blame mentality comes from the ever increasing litigious country we are becoming.

[Lolli]

Ok, I'm back, and my hair looks lovely

I agree that ignorance is less of a valid excuse for poor decision making these days, but inexperience I think still is. Inexperience is what causes me not to listen to people or take advice or causes me to listen to the wrong people. I think that responsibility is something that needs to be learned. Ideally it's learned as we grow, but there are areas, perhaps for all of us, where we still need to learn responsibility. And sometimes to be responsible requires discipline, which I think is also a learnt quality. And because it's a learning issue, we all learn things differently. Some can learn from the hard lesson, others respond to gentleness and patience, some learn quickly and others make mistakes again and again before they learn.

I'm a good case of this, many things I learn quickly, but because I lack discipline I also lack responsibility in some things (ask anyone who has had to wait for me). I know that it's not courteous or thoughtful to make people wait, but I still choose to meet with people, and I am chronically late.
I think that life is grey, which makes this topic so grey - there are usually many aspects to each choice. Yes, I annoy people when I'm late (and OT but I have to say I'm so blessed with friends who are patient with me, hopefully they understand that I do respect and love them and am working towards discipline and change!), but it's also good for me and my children to go out. So one irresponsible choice also is a responsible choice.

Similarly, when I buy eggs, often I buy cage eggs - now I am passionate about free range stuff, so in terms of animal rights it's an irresponsible choice, but in terms of my family budget where things can be incredibly tight, especially after Christmas, my choice is financially responsible.

I guess what I'm saying in a rambly way, is that when a choice seems irresponsible to us, it's possible we're seeing it from a different angle to the person involved. Some people may consider an elective C/S the less responsible choice, but it's possible there is another angle where the choice could be viewed as responsible.

Fair call Nelle. I guess, related to the original cereal example- saying "I didn't know Coco Pops were packed with sugar"- not a good enough excuse (for me). It's up to you to read the panel, compare, and do a little research into what it all means, especially if you are choosing for your kids, not yourself (given the value we all seem to hold that if you mess up yourself, that's your business, but you should have a greater sense of responsibility to your offspring). But saying "It was my first time choosing cereal", and choosing the coco pops, acceptable excuse, because it is overwhelming and how are you to know better?

And then enter the variables. "I know coco pops are high in sugar, but they were on super special/ the kids were screaming and I just wanted to get out of there/ I've got PMS, ok??" Which all influence the choice, and are not always immediately apparent.

Re-reading my OP, I sound very hard and harsh. I was actually thinking of more cut and dry situations- like "I didn't know it was past 2:30, so i shouldn't be fined for speeding in a school zone". Or from the sublime to the ridiculous "I am suing CityRail because I stuck my head out the train window to graffiti something and got hit by a pole". That was actually a court case in Australia a few years ago- the the guy believed City Rail had a duty of care to make the windows small enough so he couldn't stick his head out. Now I understand the purpose of litigation is often to provide funds for medical care and what not (say, after an accident with no insurance), but where does the responsibility end? You make an informed choice to stick your head out a train window, I think you should be responsible for the consequences...

[suse]

Careful Bath - you've come very close to leaving yourself open to a lawsuit by Stan Lee (or an asswhooping by Peter Parker)

If my DS ever goes to sleep I may be back to contribute something meaningful instead of just being cheeky.

[Lolli]

Funny suse only took me thirty seconds to get it too

[Nelle]

Not really, it's with great power comes with great responsibility...I was going to say something and decided not to, but trust the lady who thinks like me to say something!

It is my gift.....it is my curse.

[suse]

Bugger, and I even tried to make it less of an oblique reference by adding the Peter Parker bit. Didn't do so well, did I?

Oh, go on Nelle - kill my lame joke even more why don'tcha. :cries:. But yeah, I must say I was surprised that you didn't beat me to it. Oh - I just saw your last line, duh Suse, pay attention - Nelle FTW!!! Yes, it is a gift, and a curse, being as cool and funny as us. (Hey, with razor sharp wit like this, I could be an action hero... Die bad robot).

[Freya]

I think its partially because society today offers a bucketload of excuses to choose from so we can have choice without responsibilty. So now alot of people have enourmous trouble with admitting they made a wrong choice because of their own behaviour or misinformation; my mistake and I know better for next time. Or just that they made an unfortunate choice in the first place, so be it. I think we are extremely lucky that we get multiple chances (or choices I guess). As close to a do-over with hindsight as you can get without being reincarnated (if you believe in that).

In regards to birthing choices; we are practically handed the ability to pass the responsibility to someone else. I hear alot of "it had to be done" "the Dr/Nurse told me I needed it" and so on. I think alot of the anger with birth choices stems from the fact that its disheartening to think that there is even a remote possibility that what you believed was right at the time, wasnt neccesarily so; that someone you chose to put your faith in misguided you; or that you just made your decision and thats that. And you dont always like hearing that someone else made the right choices for themselves; or enabled themselves to be adequately knowledgable to make the appropriate choices.

No one likes to think that they made a wrong choice. I know I hate being wrong but I try very hard to live with that because Im human and we all make bad choices; best I can do is learn from them and go forward. I hope to teach my kids that too.

[HotI]

I agree that ignorance is less of a valid excuse for poor decision making these days, but inexperience I think still is. Inexperience is what causes me not to listen to people or take advice or causes me to listen to the wrong people. I think that responsibility is something that needs to be learned.

Awhile back there was a thread on "Is ignorance bliss?", where it was discussed that some people actively choose to not research their options. For some, this worked out fine. For others, choosing not to find about options before an event (ie birth) led them to accept events that they may not have had they had time to consider all the possibilities.

There are people i have met in real life, and on-line, who choose not to read or research and i have been criticised by some (not here!) for 'reading too much'.

I then wonder if I am talking to someone who chose not to inform themselves on options, and later had regrets on how things have turned out, should i have the same degree of empathy or concern as i would have for someone who didn't have the opportunity to research and was experiencing sadness over how things turned out?

I guess it's hard to work out sometimes what is (chosen) ignorance, and what is inexperience in knowing where to seek info....

still thinking

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

I thought spidey too!

But WRT birth choice: it ain't a choice if you're told that something will happen with or without your consent. It ain't a choice to be told "if you agree to a section you can push for another half-hour, if you don't we'll take you into theatre and just do it straight away." The choice is... be violated whichever option you choose and if you go for the first then hey, your choice, your fault. (If you've been in labour for over 24 hours you're not thinking about if everything you're told is true when you're threatened, believe me!) I'd rather not know than forget, because you really kick yourself for that one. It was my responsibility and I didn't live up to it. Rather than "I did the best I could with the information at the time." "I didn't know" is a nice excuse to keep!

BUT... I did make a choice. I did make a choice to enter the hospital. I forgot I could leave at any time and they couldn't keep me in, as they told me they could... but that was still a choice.

Also, I make choices about work, food, life... every day. My choices, my call so MY fault. It's my fault if my parenting style means I have a respectful, intelligent and kind son. It's my fault if he's a spoilt brat because of how I raise him. It's my fault if I skip lunch/dinner. Yes, there are other things to do... there are ALWAYS other things to do and not eating for 12 hours is a silly choice and that's my responsibility.

I don't understand people who always blame others for EVERYTHING... I know I do for some things (like, it's not my choice to feel upset because no-one buys me a house... when in fact it is, even if I don't know how to move past that). But some things, some actions... it's your own fault!

[Acacia]

One thing really in particular really struck me when I think about Bathsheba's original statement. It's about individuals and care. Most people take care when they are making important, life-changing decisions of course - who to marry, where to live, what they want to do with their lives, but I'm thinking more about the more ordinary, everyday, convenient decisions that individuals make and how care relates to this.

For many people, responsibility for the actions based on the choices they have will never come for the simple reason that they do not care. They don't care about the consequences of their actions-based-on-a-choice, they don't care that having the ability to make a choice is a privilege compared to others in our world. We live in a society that prides itself on - actually, it revolves around the range of choices we have for everything - that cereal aisle, the mobile phone plan, sparkling or still, boxers or briefs etc. etc. Everything in our often very cosy, capitalist's dream lives means that we are able make choices that have little perceived consequence to others as a result of what we choose for ourselves, and when we do have to make choices in things that really do matter - and by this I think I mean choices that have moral and/or welfare consequences - some people don't or can't view the seriousness of potential consequences and the effects on others as a result of our choices. The comfort and convenience bubble that they are in would be in danger of popping, and the reality of that is too confronting for some so they choose to ignore it by being apathetic, impassive or indifferent.

Perhaps I view it that many people have been desensitized from understanding that choosing and taking actions in their lives have consequences because of the overwhelming amount of choice that we have in our lives. It is viewed as a right and thus responsibility and care isn't of any consequence.

For those that understand that choice bears consequence - and can think about where the consequences are in relation to choices - this is where responsibility forms. Those that can *see* and understand the consequences from a moral/ethical/welfare POV from even the most simple choices and base these choices on this information take on responsibility it the truest sense of the word.

Whether it's the simple choice of which cereal product to buy (fairtrade, less sugar/salt for your child, recycled/less packaging, Non-GM) to which company supplies your power needs (which countries/people may they be exploiting, what is their carbon impact/offset, what interests do their shareholders have), to who to vote for (voting and democracy is a whole other discussion again), to decisions like whether or not to BF/FF** (what is best for my child's health, perpetuating and supporting a culture/companies that have a negative impact on life), c/s versus natural birth** (impact on my own and my child's health and life), each choice should have an equal amount of care and concern for the consequences given to it, no matter how big or small, whether you see it changing your life or not. In busy lives, this is not always possible, but those individuals that care enough to make as many of their choices possible bearing this in mind, being informed and educated about the options and consequences are doing their bit for bearing responsibility for choice.

I would love to be this person I describe above - I try to be as much as I can, but I wish it was as black and white as this. And I'm human LOL. I haven't spoken about how I see this "care" is impacted by financial, emotional and social conditions as I think that's a whole other discussion in itself. (As too is thinking about choice and responsibility with regard to corporations/organisations/the whole as opposed to the individual)... But in an ideal world where all (and not just some) of those who were privileged enough to have choice tried to exercise it responsibly as often as they could, with care and concerns for others, something tells me that the world would be a very different place...


**Please note, I am not talking about a situation where a mother may not be able to BF even when she wants to or needs a c/s in a medical emergency, just the situation where she has a choice.

[Mak]

Wow some really interesting thoughts, I hope my thoughts are not too simple. I struggle with the multitude of options available as I want to make the 'best' possible choices for my family. The struggle relates to the knowledge I may or may not have about the particular choice and the reality of my options.
I get really frustrated when people don't own their own choices and then choose to comment on mine. It is a tricky one - choosing cereal (great ex as I hate this one especially when the kids are with me) is a choice that can be rectified and changed the next time you need to go/as your knowledge changes, I guess you can do the same for subsequent medical visits/child birth if you choose - the thing that strikes me is that people DO spend more time researching/exploring their options about phone plans/cereal/clothing and almost none on other big events like childbirth. (I'd like to add at this point, that I was in this boat with my DD1 and I cannot believe it in retrospect). Everyone has different values that they hold important but I am astounded about the lack of genuine discussions about important issues - also the lack of responsibilty for the consequences. An example - spending money you don't have, then expecting others to fill the void for the basics.

[Bathsheba]

Great discussion people Acacia: very insightful! I agree completely that the root issue is people's innate "care factor". When I thinkabout it, I see a trend: the people in my lives with with often the greatest degree of care factor are those who have developed that learned responsibility (that Nelle made reference to) quite young. Often because they moved out of home in their late teens/very early 20's and had to fend for themselves. DH and I have observed a worrying trend of people who choose to live at home with their parents... until well into their 30's and remain oblivious to the broader consequences of things. I was listening to the radio about a phenomenom in Italy where (mainly males) are never actually leaving home until they find a wife to take over the role of parent. Men in their 40s still in child mode. This degree of sheltering is not only damaging to the individual but that individual's entire community. Society NEEDS each new generation to have learned responsibility and care factor. So I agree totally Acacia: responsible choice doesn't just emerge out of the blue when it comes to "serious stuff" like childbirth options. It's more deep rooted in a person's character. I worry about the young "soft fall" generation of today (insert tan bark imagery). In my day (LOL a new wrinkle just appeared) the monkey bars were built over hard compacted dirt. If you fell it was like hitting cement. A few broken arms didn't kill anyone... but they did develop more cautious natures