Teacher forcefully removing student from class

[maz]

Im wondering, is a teacher permitted to touch our children, eg as in our case, by grabbing them by the wrist to get them to move out of the room when they are having a melt down?

W is beside himself as he made a fake smoke..the teacher in the special need's room made a big deal of it (which I wouldnt have) and took it from him to were he cracked it. He was having a melt down at the teacher and aid and they decided to take him outside so he could cool down and when he wouldnt go the teacher grabbed him on the arms.

What annoys me is that she ran out to the car to give me the fake smoke but didnt tell me he had had a melt down OR that she had grabbed his wrist to take him outside. I was alright with the smoke thing, I actually backed the teacher but I just cant get it out of my head that she touched him n that way...would a normal child be treated like this?

None of this mind you is written in his communicatoin book either....which will be after tonight so I can have something in writing there.

[Rainbow_Mumma]

nah ah no bloody way is that ok! I would be opening a huge can of whoop ass on that teacher Maz, a lot of teachers (from what Ive seen my old high school was linked with a spec ed school) think they can take the "extra measures" with kids who are autistic and suffer from other special needs (didnt mean to say suffer just have lack of vocab prob atm!)

But what im trying to say is no that is not ok and i would not be tolerating it and i hope W is ok, Claires best friend is 13 and autistic and Ive seen some of his meltdowns and as frustrating as they are theres no excuse to physically touch a child to remove him from the class

[luna moth]

Yep, I'm pretty sure it's not OK. Definitely sounds like there are better ways to have handled it. Her not telling you about it particularly rings alarm bells - like she's deliberately hiding it.

[Purple Penguin]

Nope, definitely not ok! I would be following it up with the Principal.

[Bumperstump Cummerbund]

The fact that she made such a big deal about the smoke by running it out to you, but conveniently 'forgot' to mention physically moving him out of the room either verbally or in his book shows that she knows she shouldn't have done it, at least to me. 'Normal' children can't be touched, I can't see it being any different in W's case. I suppose it depends on if his meltdown was threatening the other kids in the room?

I'd definitely be asking the question tomorrow, not necessarily guns blazing (yet), but just for your info. Then you can make an informed decision as to how to proceed y'know?

[maz]

Thanks guys
Ive jsut gotten of the phone with the principal. He and I dont have a very good *cough* track record and itold him im not ringing to be a ***** but out of concern, explained the situation and my concern that the teacher couldnt tell me when she initially came out to the car...he was not happy at all and promised to talk to her about it and get back to me. He also told me he has given his staff strick rules that SNC are NOT to be touched in anyform...hmmmmm thank god for that
On a positive it also mended a bridge between him and me as I told him I cannot do PSG meetings because I get far to emotional at them...which he and asked me if I could please attend the next one
One hell of a dame week in this house I tell you...man can we start it again

ETA I also made a point of discussing with the principal how hard we have worked to get him to like that class and I dont want a stupid thing like this setting him back..he agreed fully

[trishalishous]

. 'Normal' children can't be touched, I can't see it being any different in W's case. I suppose it depends on if his meltdown was threatening the other kids in the room?

when I was teaching (in WA and Vic) if a student was at risk of hurting themeselves or others they were removed from the room.
it depends if it was a 'taking their wrist and leading' or 'dragging kicking and screaming' physical removal.
I haven't taught SN but my sister is autistic and would be physically blocked (carer placing themselves between her and others)if having a meltdown. I don't think she was ever physically removed from a class.

[maz]

W's meltdowns are him crying and telling people no and to leave him alone. The teacher tried saying that he was being rude and unhelpfull to her and the carer.
I totally understand that if he was to hurt someone, eg enother student then I would expect force to be used....but seriously...they know that he is genuinely easy going and if you leave him be then he'll be fine in 5 mins.

He has told me his wrist's are sore....so quiet obviously it was done with some force

[berrme]

There are children that have to be 'manhandled' by teachers at times, but those are very special cases where both parents and carers know that this will be the case.
I don't think the biggest issue is that the teacher touched your son's wrists (though I wouldn't do it unless there was no other way to ensure the safety of the child and other children around them), I think it is the way she dealt with the initial incident and that she didn't tell you about the rest of the incident when she told you about the fake cigarette. I am glad you had a good conversation with the principal. It is his job to make sure his teachers are doing their jobs in the right way and I am pretty sure that teacher is getting a talk that she really doesn't want right now. I hope it doesn't afftect your son's progress!

[~Lashes~]

i hope it gets sorted out, and she dosent twist it arround to sound better for herself.i cant see that big of a deal in making a fake smoke, my kids pretend to smoke as theyve seen my mum smoke every time they see her, i dont like it, i just take it off them and tell them its yuck and all that, making a big deal out of it isnt the best way to get them to stop doing it, most the time it indirectly encourages it.
i hope that after today she has more respect for you and your son. id also be getting her to make it up to your son so he dosent feel traumatised by it and decide to hate the class.

[maz]

Melanie - Dont get me wrong I am peeved that she touched him that way..but yes I agree with you, she made the big who ha of walking all the way out to my car to tell me about the smoke but didnt give me the heads up that he had had a melt down or that she had to grab him to take him out.

When I rang she was shocked adn i said look im giving you the heads up W told me you grabbed him on the wrists and now he doesnt want to come to class tomorrow, her answer was thats fine ...hmmmm something else i need to write in his communication book. At the time I was alright with it cause she was cutting me off and apologising flat out if she had 'upset' him by doing it...hmmmm adn then said she would apologise to him tomorrow for it.

Sarah - kn ow what i said tohim when he got to the car.....Have you got a light for me cause Ive got this big arse smoke that need's smoking... the teacher informed me that she told him I wouldnt be happy with it and that she needed to get rid of it. I dont like the teacher using me as a scap goat and to think about it now, she should off let me deal with the situation.

We as parents trust these people with our children for 6 hours a day.....it does not give them the right, even if they are having a bad day to take physical discapline into their hands. God, if we as parents smack our children and a teacher finds out DOC's get's called.


you know, im goign to have to cut and paste everything Ive writen down here so I remember lol

[Pretty Butterfly]

I have worked with SN a few times...
We were able to remove children from the classroom IF they were a danger to themselves or others.. one little boy was trying to throw his chair... so WAS taken out kicking and screaming... I was there and to be honest, there was no reasoning with him, and would of definatly harmed others... explaining to a parent their children were hurt because we "let" a another child hurt them is just as awlful as dealing with a screaming angry autistic child who cannot understand or calm easily...

But it certainly doesnt sound like little W was in need of "restraining"!!! I too would be quite pi$$ed off babe... there is no need to touch, or remove a child unless there is immediate danger to anyone. Poor W, she shouldnt of done it, and it probably scared him and made him harder to calm down ... she definatly needs a talking too, esp if she will have regular contact with W... big hugs babe... xoxoxo

[berrme]

She was shocked???? said that was fine?????? Definitely not fine. It is never fine if a student doesn't want to come to your class because you have hurt/ scared them. Especially a special needs student. She should be offering to have mediation to sort it out ASAP.
You posted about the sore wrists and his normal tantrums while I was writing my previous post. Doesn't sound like she would have had any reason to handle him at all, let alone to an extent where he is complaining about sore wrists!

[ElleJay]

I know that here in WA, you are under no circumstances allowed to lay a hand on a student. DH being a teacher, he's told me all kinds of stories bout it.
I remember when I was in school, in year 2 (1992) we had a kid smacked in class and dragged out - That teacher got into so much trouble it wasn't funny

[*LittleMissSummer*]

Correct me if im wrong but aren't teachers in that sort of classes supposed to have training and know how to talk to students like your son, instead of snatching or taking the item off him but talking to them in a way that doesnt upset them but saying what he did was a bit silly. IMO she was too harsh so of course he will get upset and have a meltdown and instead of physically touching him shouldn't she know how to calm him down or maybe just ring you straight away.

She doesn't sound like a very good teacher if she ran out and 'dobbed' on him when you were in the carpark its as if she was covering herself. And for her to be fine with one of her students not returning doesn't show she really cares and he needs a teacher that cares.

i'm so sorry your son had to go through that and i hope he is ok.

[*Ali*]

I am usually the first one to stick up for teachers, being that I know how hard it is being on the otherside of the story, however this is just wrong in so so so many ways! I had a pretty full on kid in my class this year, and when he got going into one of his rages I would just remove the rest of the class and myself for safety and wait for someone from admin to come and assist. No way I would ever ever put my hands on a student, there is a whole code of ethics that teachers are bound by, and we have it drilled into us over and over and over, to never put yourself in that sort of situation, because it is something that you could loose your job over.
I am also suprised about her not picking her battles, I mean really if the worst he was doing was rolling up some paper to make a cigarette, then it is something so easily dealt with, with a little bit of distraction, nothing something to cause a huge scene over.

Stick to your guns on this one, like you say, you trust your sone in her care 6 hours a day 5 days a week. I personally would be devestated if a child didn't want to come to my class because of something I have said or done, I can't believe her reply about him not wanting to come to school.

[Nelle]

Just thinking, maybe she said 'that's fine', as in 'that's okay, whatever works for him'? If she feels like she could have handled the situation better, she probably doesn't feel she's in a position to push for him to return straight away if he's upset. And if she knows she was unwise, she might just be feeling like a day of space and then a fresh start next week might work - I'm not saying it's ideal if the teacher needs space - but she's not the expert with all the right tricks you have up your sleeve, you're the pro when it comes to W. She's only had him for school hours for the year, and I guess she feels out of her depth in some circumstances, not having the skills you do from raising him.

All the best with the meeting. Would it help to jot down your points so you can stay focussed for the meeting? That's what I do if I know I'm discussing tricky issues so I don't ramble and rant.

[~*familyof3*~]

wow i was about to say that if they child is endangering the other students then the teacher can physically remove them but Dark Dreamer has just said they cant.I would love to know what they can and cant do as i to have had my son dragged kicking and screaming from a class,but was only kicking and screaming due to the physical removal.

I to think she over reacted to start with its a normal child thing to do so should have been delt with accordingly