Doggy drama at the cafe!

[Phteven]

I don't know what to think. My dog is pretty feral about other dogs but she is usually very tolerant of people. My boys are rough with her as children often are and she is always gentle with them although she will give a warning growl to let them know if they have pushed her too far. When visitors come she barks at them but generally after that she is fine. She is not out-going. She is a one person dog and I am her person but she is always tolerant of pats and once she gets to know you she is a lot more friendly. She always has a wag for my siblings and their partners.
Most mornings we go to a cafe for a coffee. They know her there and she always sleeps under my chair and ignores anything other than other dogs.
Today I was having my coffee and she was under my chair as usual when suddenly all hell breaks out - she was snarling and snapping at an older man who was swearing and snarling back. Then his wife came over and he said watch for the dog and she asked was he bitten. He said Nearly.
Then he was complaining to the owner about her. The owner knows her and she knows that she is usually very placid but since the whole conversation was in German I don't know if she pointed that out.

She's never done anything like that and now I'm kind of worried that she will do it again - she is a kiddy magnet. They come from miles to pat her because she is small and cute and now I suddenly feel worried that she might hurt one. Most days our walk is interrupted at least once by a small person who wants a pat.

Part of me thinks that the problem is the old man - the way that he was snarling at Bella almost simultaneously when she started going off and the way his wife asked if he had been bitten in such an everyday tone of voice makes me wonder if he has issews with small fluffy dogs and this kind of thing happens often.
Another part of me thinks that maybe the problem is that Bella is more psycho than I ever thought - I don't want to be one of those owners who sticks their head in the sand and pretends that their feral horrible dog is normal but like I said this has never, ever happened before.

What can I do? She is due for her vaccinations and checkup in a month so I thought I could go tomorrow and ask the vet but in the meantime..... has anyone else's dog ever freaked out at someone for no reason? Did they do it again? My Dad's dog went for someone once much to our embarrassment and later it turned out that he had given us a bouncing check but I don't want to take it from that that all dogs who suddenly act snappy are loyal helpers saving the world from fraudsters and mean people.

I love my dog but I'm not prepared to keep a dangerous dog or ask anyone else to adopt her

[LionsandBears]

that's a worry. You may want to talk to an animal behaviourist/vet about it. It could be either scenario. I think some people just smell wrong to certain dogs. They feel threatened and have a go. I'm normally great with dogs, but a couple have had a go at me out of nowhere. I actually get upset about it, as I love dogs. I figure we're just not meant to be friends.

Or she may be increasing in anxiety/territorialness. I know this happened with a dog my parents owned years ago. She got so protective she ended up attacking anyone who came near them. Sadly, they put her down, but she wasn't safe anymore.

She may need more training or a muzzle or hormone treatment. Talk to a doggy professional.

ETA - understand about the dog sensing something wrong about someone. We've had that too - if the dog doesn't like someone, there's normally a reason. They may be dodgy or they may just be afraid of or unfamiliar with dogs. Which is why i get upset if a dog has a go at me. Unless they are certain breeds, in which case I figure it's the breed.

[willow5]

My first thought is what did the old man do?? Did he 'accidentally' step on her maybe? Or does he just ooze I don't like dogs, which I guess could be that he's scared of dogs which would make him defensive and possibly aggressive and Bella would react to that.

I'm guessing it was just him, but you know your Bella best I'm sure you'll know if it's her getting a bit old and grumpy. Can you ask the cafe owner what the go was? Maybe She knows the guy and will tell you it's just him?

Good luck, hope it's not your Bella being more psycho than you thought

[Aussiegirl777]

My Sister had a beautiful gentle bull-mastif. He was great with everyone and well known around the area. He accepted pats from all kinds and she never had a problem with him until one day when he was about 8 years old. (which is a good age for that breed) On that day he snapped at someone who came to their front door. She thought it was weird because he had never done anything like it before but put it down to maybe that person was a bad person or something. Quite a while later it happened again, I can't really remember the details. Then it started to happen more regularly. My Sister ended up taking him to the vet where they did xrays and found that he had a tumor on his spine. Unfortunately there wasn't a good outcome in this case but maybe you can ask your vet to give her a good checkover. I hope it's nothing serious in your case.

[Teeki]

From your post, my first thought was that there's something up with the old man. Even if your Bella had a go at him straight away out of the blue, why would he snarl and swear back at her? That's not really a normal response.

My dog has a thing about older people. I think it's because of the way 71yo FIL tried to 'play' with him when he was a puppy, and because the old guy who comes to read our electricity metre is nasty to him. So now I'm extra careful with him around older people, but don't want him to get snarky with kids and others either.

At the cafe, how long is her lead? If she can't really get out far from under your chair it shouldn't cause much of a problem. And when out walking her, if you see someone coming up to pat her I'd just ask them not to, or to be careful. I do that with our dog - he's a big lab, and when little kids come running they don't realise how excitable he can get and I don't want him to hurt them. I usually put myself between him and the person and then just ask them to be careful. Obviously if he showed signs of being unhappy with that person I'd leave with him.

Other than that though, the vet probably will have some good suggestions, and I like the idea of seeing a dog behaviouralist.

[Trillian]

I think it was just a one off thing because of this man. Dogs have this amazing sense with people and if they don't like someone, then they just don't like them. It would be worth asking the vet though if he has any suggestions for managing the way she acts or even if he thinks she is a full on dog kwim?

[krysalyss]

That is such a tough situation because you didn't see what happened so you don't know if it was a predictable situation (e.g. he stood on her tail or kicked her) or an unpredictable one (where she reacted to apparently nothing - pretty uncommon and I would then ask if your dog is aging?). My opinion is that vets have a very basic knowledge of animal behaviour but may be able to refer you on to someone. I would look at a vet behaviourist (a vet specialising in behaviour) because they will be able to test your dog out in a variety of situations and give you some specific advice. Could be that man really doesn't like dogs at cafes and wanted to prove a point? Could be that she is unpredictable and/or snappy. It is too hard to say from what happened, but I would definitely be seeking some professional advice both to set your mind at ease (or not as the case may be) and for defence if the man makes a proper complaint about your dog to the local council.

Forgot to add that a vet may be able to find a problem with her (e.g. brain changes or pain) which would account for the behaviour.
But whether the man likes or doesn't like dogs is irrelevant unless he actually acted on that. It isn't justified for a dog to bite at a person unless the person has actually acted against them (like kicking them).

[Marley&Me]

I think dogs know when someone is not a good person. I have always thought this. More importantly, what breed is your dog? Did you keep her on the lead whilst at the cafe or do you let her off?
I wouldn't even consider getting rid of my dog, no matter the circumstances. But I do have a harmless pug! He snaps at some people, but he's too little to reach people and bite.

[Cassius2]

i'd like to say that it is a one off thing...

BUT i say this from the perspective of our own experience where our usually happy go lucky dog (who is lovely with all humans, and is happy with most dogs...bar those that try to 'hump' her lol), once totally lost it at this tween aged boy. it came from nowhere and I was horrified. we were sooo lucky that she was chained to my chair leg as i swear that she wanted to bite him. the poor kid was scared beyond belief and I went home in tears after apologising to the kid and family profusely (they were fine and totally lovely about it, citing that she was *just* being protective of our baby). We were very lucky.
After that i became totally freaked out about taking her out in public (we had always been out and about with her since she was 12 weeks old!). i just lost that bit of trust. because i became so scared to take her out, DH insisted that i call a doggy behavourlist. it was the best move! she was able to guide us through and basically let us (me!) regain my confidence with her by enacting some simple strategies (namely that my dog was never to believe that she was in charge or needing to protect us). funnily enough, it meant that she was not to sit under our chairs at cafes! so now we tie her up behind the table and away from the main footpath and TBH we noticed right away the difference, she stopped being curious about all the passer bys and i noticed that she would even fall asleep and fully relax (which in hindsight i hadnt noticed her do before but never thought much of it ITMS).

I have changed my views with her though, so now when people ask for pats (she is a lab x so gets alot of interest!) i tell them we'd rather not. it sucks as i always had dogs that were very social and chillaxed, but obviously stella aint that lol.

she has never ever gone for anyone since that horrible day 4 years ago, but i took it as a warning. even if the kid had the wrong smell, or had intentions to hurt her (which i dont think he did, he was just being loud and excitable running past her several times) it would still mean that he could of gotten hurt and my dog could of been destroyed.

i dont think you need to get rid of your dog it might mean changing her socialisation situations if it becomes an issue, and it might mean that if you guys do want to take her out to cafes and she gets too narky that a muzzle could be worn.

[Jennifer13]

Actually, Onyx, I think you can take heart from the fact that although she snarled and growled at the man, even he (disagreeable person though he sounds) says she didn't bite him. Animals don't 'nearly' bite, they generally either warn you to back off (by snarling and growling) or they bite (after someone ignores the warning, or with a dog that can't be trusted, with no warning).

The animal behaviourist we saw for our little dog that we've since lost (who did bite, but only us ) said that warning by growling was a good thing, because it meant the dog was communicating how it felt and gave you time to respond. That you should respect the growl, or words to that effect. She was a great help to giving us tips for helping our little dog and I never feared taking her out around other people and small children. I just knew what her triggers were (food within easy reach) so never put her in that situation. Your little dog probably has the 'don't step on my tail and have a go at me' trigger. Keep an eye out for what might trigger it if it ever happens again.

I would say your little doggy showed good self control to know not to bite the man, whatever he did. And a dog's growling and snarling can scare the beejeebus out of someone, so I wouldn't necessarily make a decision based on the emotion you feel straight away.

Cassius - great info. So the under the chair thing is probably like a dog's overreaction when it's on the lead then? I know that always makes our dogs get overly worked up about having to protect us when we come across other dogs.

[Phteven]

Thank-you everyone for your replies and advice.
Bella isn't an old dog - the vet geusstimated her age at 18 months when we got her so I think she must be about 4 or 5 now. So it's not the onset of senility.
The man couldn't have trodden on her, he was too far away when the snarling commenced. Since Bella's lead is 90cm and she didn't reach the end of it I don't think she came close to him but since he was approaching from behind my shoulder he may have been closer than I realised. I'm not sure that she would have bitten him if push came to shove. When people come to her garden she tells them that she's going to rip their throats out but if they ignore her and push the gate open she retreats to her kennel or the other side of the garden and swears at them from a safe distance.
My BIL has had her to stay and he breeds and trains dogs and he says she's a kindly dog, our vet used to have her to stay when we went away and he likes her and when she goes to the doggy hotel they are always happy to see her. Until today no-one has ever suggested that she might be anti-social or called her a "bloody little thing" - I've always had nice feedback. Even the feral with other dogs issue isn't an issue if I'm not on the end of her lead. She socialises happily on sleep-overs.
I guess it could be something about him that was triggering. She came from the pound and I have no idea about her history other than she was found wandering with an equally cute sibling who was adopted before her. My Dad is about the same age and size as the man today and I don't remember anything odd about her reaction to him which makes me think that she was normal (my cat on the other hand loved him and step. I can only assume she used to live with someone elderly).

In short..... I'm still mystified and I don't feel comfortable following our normal morning routine tomorrow.

[Cally]

PIL dog reacts very badly to Koori men that wear hats and drive utes - she was a rescue dog. There could have been an item of his clothing that really upset her, based on her previous expeience and made her react like that.

[Phteven]

I used to have a horse that was terrified of Akubras. Made things a bit awkward when I was competing in horse sports in a rural area.

[Cassius2]

well here's another weird one...our dog (the same one...she is 'special' hahaha), gets TOTALLY freaked out by brooms/sticks of any sort. what makes this more interesting is that she has NEVER been abused as she was whelped at the rescue organisation....BUT her mum was. her mum was beaten quite regularly before she ended up on death row pregnant (and then adopted by the rescue org). so there could also be the possibility of inhereted/learned fears from mumma dog.

(oh, and we once had a horse that was scared of red dirt...and we lived in kingaroy that is just lambasted with the stuff ...couldnt take the silly thing anywhere lol).

[Phteven]

LOL, that's a strange dog you've got there.
Horse are funny with their odd phobias - we had a road near us and for some reason every horse we owned hated a small stretch of it even though it looked totally the same as all the rest of the road.
The vet said the best start would be obedience classes and from there the teacher will be able to suss out any issues that need more intensive work. He didn't recommend one in particular because he thinks the best class is the one that fits your budget and schedule.
There is a dog club not far away with a Wednesday morning class starting in October so I think we'll roll with them. The RSPCA is close by too but their class is Saturday and although 1 course is cheaper you have to pay per course where the other club is more expensive to join but once you join you can go to as many course as you want in the year.

*sigh* Now I have a dog to run around to extra-curricular activities too.

[willow5]

*sigh* Now I have a dog to run around to extra-curricular activities too.

But seriously, hope it all goes well ...If it turns out Bella is a well behaved doggy with no psycho tendencies, I wonder if the old man can be enrolled in obedience classes???

[Miss.September]

LOL, my horse is scared of plastic bags, dogs and tree stumps. I can kind of understand the first two, but tree stumps? Sheesh!

Is there any way you can find out from the cafe staff if they saw what happened? Like was Bella asleep and he went to touch her and frightened her? Hope you're both okay