DS is now 2.5 and we're beginning to see him challenging us more and more. We've always tried to avoid 'punishment' based discipline and instead use positive reinforcement/redirection or talk about why we don't do things etc.
But, this is increasingly becoming more and more challenging and we are beginning to see a little bit of hitting. The way we've always approached hitting etc has been 'we don't hit people because it can hurt them. when you get hurt you feel sad. it doesn't feel good to feel sad does it'. But that isn't resonating right now.
So, the topic of time out or the naughty spot has come up a few times now... I'm not 100% sure it's the right approach for us right now. I'm still not sure if he is old enough to comprehend it, or whether it will even be any more effective than the approach we're currently using.
But, I would love to hear you're experiences with these sort of techniques. Does it work with your child? How do you implement it? When did you start? Any tips or pointers?
And, of course if you have any other ideas as to how we can make discipline a little bit more effective in our house that would be great too.
TIA
ETA: I guess overall I feel like he is pushing the boundaries at the moment (which is perfectly normal at his age), but I'm just not sure if we are doing a good job of defining and maintaining them IYKWIM?
At that age I used to just hold my kids if they were acting up. I'd just calmly put them on my knee and hold them until they calmed down and were relaxed. I didn't speak to them or fight with them, we'd just sit quietly until they were calm then I'd put them down. At first it took them a while to relax but after a while they would relax quite quickly. As they got older we used to put them in their bedrooms for a few minutes or until they were calm, they could do whatever they wanted int heir room. Usually by the time I went back to get them they were playing nicely or asleep.
for the most part, kids want your attention - so withdrawing your attention until they have calmed down is perhaps a good way of handling it (i.e. holding their hand and waiting, or turning your back until they calm down, or putting them in bedroom until calm). Assuming they are not endangering themselves, they will eventually calm themselves down.
As long as you catch him when he is hitting and make it quite clear that he needs to stop then you'll define the boundaries. the only other question is maybe to consider that it's not that bad to take away privilages - this is how society works - it is not always positive reinforcement, there are natural consequences for your behaviour - so using natural consequences, and planned ignoring may be strategies that will help.
check out 123 Magic as another parenting resource you may be intrested in as well.
we did time out at that age and it worked well. We used the bathroom as it was boring, their bedrooms were far too interesting. Using a room for time out was good as the doorway was a clear boundary as to where they had to stay. I did the Super Nanny thing and warned them, then put them in there and told them why they were going in. Only did it for one to two minutes then explained to them what they had done wrong and asked them to say sorry or to tell me why they were in there then gave them a cuddle and sent them on their way.
Time out doesnt work as well now they are older. DD2 just laughs at us if we put her in time out!!! We now take away toys/ cancel activities
When DD2 was trying to hit bite DD1 we let DD1 know it was okay to say no to her and she could push her away as DD1 would stand there and cry rather than protect herself
It's tough, isn't it?
My DS is a bit older, but I'm finding things a bit challenging at the moment too. It's good to remember that they do go through periods of change and adjustment and it takes time for us to adjust too, before things settle down again.
At this age you're probably at the inbetween stage where redirection/distraction doesn't work, but the language skills aren't quite good enough for the talking discipline. I do like talking things through, also, as they do understand a lot (though there's often a time before they can really act on it) which sets you in good stead for later on. But 'Feeling sad', for eg, might be a bit abstract for your DS at this stage - some more concrete consequences might help, like I can't play with you if you hit me. How's his language? Is he frustrated? Does he act out more when tired and/or hungry? Sometimes just dealing with the udnerlying issues will help a lot.
Generally speaking, I do not use timeout etc, as I don't believe withdrawing attention or presence is a good thing for young kids. I have, however, on a few occasions been so flummoxed by his behaviour that I have taken him to his room and shut the door. It did not help, but gave me a chance to regroup before trying again. When kids act out, there's always a reason. It's not just them being bad or defying you, you know? Even when it really seems like that. Sometimes it's simply they're tired, hungry,sick, or maybe bored or frustrated about something, or maybe they're needing a bit more time with you, or maybe something else has happened to throw them out of equilibrium - and sometimes they just feel like **** and need to yell . Sometimes, rather than time out, time in is better - you get down at their level and hear them out. It's harder when they don't talk much, but sometimes just really being there helps. They know it's ok to express their emotions because mummy is still there even at their worst.
My son is a little younger but we find that withdrawing him from the situation to be the most effective. We always explain like you, but he just needs the circuit breaker. We don't leave him alone as he's wouldn't understand that yet.
Following this he always has to say sorry for his behaviour, even if I say it on his behalf.
We have "the wall" its a specific spot at home but any wall works! Ds definitely understands and it works to break the problem at the time. I am within sight but usually turned away. He will cry and say sorry, he's only there for 30 secs or so. I don't use it much as a "warning" about "the wall" is enough iykwim
When DD was about that age we did time out b/c I couldn't reason with her (she was too young/immature to understand) only for a max of 2 mins. I used to put her next to our dining table with the oven timer on and I'd be around where she could see me. When the timer went off I'd explain to her what the negative behaviour was then we'd have a cuddle. She again was too young to get the whole apology thing. As she got older time out or time in didn't work, so now I try to tell reason with her to an extent. It's really tough and some kids won't respond to time out or reasoning etc... you really need to work out what your DD will respond to b/c each child is different.
we haven't done any time out but i have removed him from a situation - we were at playgroup & he was getting too boisterous & pushing so i brought him to sit on my knee for a minute or two to calm down. he wasn't happy about it because it meant he was away from the other kids & didn't have access to the toys. i just explained why we don't push etc. i figure even if he doesn't understand 100% (although i'm sure he does), it doesn't hurt to go through the process of explaining why he's been taken away from a situation etc.
i haven't used time out or the naughty corner just because my gut feeling is that it's not necessarily the best approach for DS. he's an emotional little guy & if he gets truly upset he loses all sight of why he was upset or what he might have done 'wrong' in the first place.
sorry - not really helpful but wanted to let you know i understand
We use time out here, but it's not withdrawn, it is with us on a boring wall in the kitchen. They simply have to sit there to calm down with us still around, and then we chat. We have adapted Magic 1 2 3 with counting and staying calm (although I do need to re-read it) The key is to explain your expectations and if they are doing something inappropriate and you get to 3 that's it. Sometimes an apology is enough and we carry on but if we feel that they don't know why they might be in trouble or don't understand we sit and explain, then cuddle and carry on.
It's so hard - right now mine are sooking and whining over every little thing and I am finding it hard to find some patience.
Love time out here! It's a great calm way to show that the particular behaviour is unacceptable! No ranting yelling mummy just a calm hand held to the front door. Then and explanation at the end, an apology to whomever and then you are free. We start this at about 18 months old
I have occasionally removed DD over the years to the laundry to quieten down. The only time this was used was when her behavior was potentially physically harmful (ie hitting - if you are going to hurt someone then you can't be around them). I can count on one hand the number of times I needed to use this with her (although the threat was used more often!). Like you, I prefer consequences, rather than punishments. I figure time alone to calm down and think about your behavior (even at 2) is a suitable consequence for lashing out at another person. And I never left her in there for very long, but before coming out, asked her to apologize and talked about it. The apology bit wasn't always forthcoming...
I found counting to five was the most effective circuit breaker for her behavior (not when she'd lost it - that's just emotional development and I generally tried to be more understanding of how she was feeling then). It was always a very calm 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and then the situation is resolved by me (task done, thing taken away, child removed, whatever, no discussion, no fuss). Gave her time to gather herself and ensured I stayed in control of myself too.
Last edited by Jennifer13; December 19th, 2011 at 06:37 AM.
We use time out or even removing yourself to a calm place to settle down here.
It's definately something that needs to be adjusted to suit the age of the child and even the temprement but me personaly i feel there needs to be a point where some form of consequences are learnt.
With DS1 i don't know at what age i started using it but i remember the beginnings of 3 being a real challenge so it might have been around this stage. I would warn him about his behaviour and and that if he didn't stop he would be spending a few min in his room. If it got to that point i would put him in this room and when i went to bring him back out we'd have a little chat and a hug. I try to be firm and clearn in what is happening and why.
DS2 is 3 in March in this second part of the year there have been a few occasions where i have done it with him. He has learnt a lot earlier about pushing the boundries from his big brother. He too knows how to push his brothers 'buttons' and create issues to the point where i'm dealing with two children who just will not back down.
In the taking yourself off to a calm place option sometimes DS1 gets extemely frustrated at his little brother and if things don't go his way so i have tried to get him to learn to remove himself and go away to a quiet place until he calms down and feels better. He's got a really quick temper like his dad
We have just started time out as well following the 1-2-3 Magic theory. I tried the sitting down and explaining thing but it just goes right over DS's head and I feel like I'm on constant repeat! Very frustrating for me. Time out for us is anywhere - at home I send him to his room. It does not matter if he plays with his toys, sits on his bed or reads a book or whatever, it's just a time out from the situation. In public, it can be right there on the spot, on my lap, or I take them back to the car (really inconvenient but only had to do it once so far). I do the 3 count - that's 1, that's 2 and 3 is time out. For more serious actions like hitting his sister, it's an immediate 'that's 3 - timeout'. I find this works for us because it takes the emotion out of it (for me) and avoids the drama from escalating. So more of a time out for both of us than anything. Most of the time I only get to 1 or 2 before he stops whatever it is I've asked him to stop, so it seems really effective.
I don't know if this will help, but our LO has finally learnt what "gentle" means.
When he goes to hit, bite, or play too rough I calmly (took some time to get to calm) say: Robert, gentle. He stops what he's doing and will either pat or cuddle (depending if it's a book, toy or person) and say "gentle". Then it's praise-praise-praise.
With DS1 (when he was older, 3-5) I would count him down (using 1-2-3). One was a warning, 2 was a second warning - he knew that if I got to 3 he was in "serious trouble", ie, time-out; toys taken away, mummy being cross etc. The important thing was to follow through and be consistent. After he started to comprehend that his actions had consequences it was only the rare occasion that we got past 2 and three quarters.
Haven't read all the replies, but we have always used time outs, but I really don't like them. I don't think they work.
I am reading a book at the minute called "Positive Discipline" and she has written a companion "Positive Timeouts" - some fabulous ideas in there and techniques for using positive time-outs to diffuse a situation without negativity or punishment.
I bought it at The Book Depository for about $20 I think with free post, so well worth it.
We've started looking after my nephews a lot (family issues), so in teh past few weeks we've needed to 'guide' J a couple of times. Mainly about screaming in the house - it affects Mum differently to others, as she has Multiple Sclerosis, so he needs to learn that he can't scream when he's here. The other thing he does is this grating, fake cry when he's unhappy about something. We're trying to encourage him to tell us what's wrong, so we can help with it, rather than just sit there getting progressively more hysterical at us.
We have a naughty chair, which is in full view of everyone, it's between the lounge/dining area. He can still see us, but he seems to realise that he needs to stay there, because we never have to keep him on it, he waits for us to get him. He's never on there for more than 3 mins, as he's only 3 yrs. Honestly though, Mum and I hate it with a passion. He sobs and sobs when he's on the chair, and when he comes off he's cringing - I don't know what's going on in his head, but I don't like the outward signs.
Last week when he lost it and wouldn't listen, I just picked him up and held onto him, so he needed to calm down. I stood for a bit, until he calmed down, and then I sat on the couch but kept holding him and rubbed his back, until his breathing was regular and he would talk to me. He finally told me what he needed, and then I was able to help him - I much prefer that method personally.
Thanks so much for all of your responses. I really value your sharing what works for you. I'm just feeling quite out of my depth right now. Many of the techniques such as holding them close, taking them away for a little quiet time, helping them to get control of their emotions etc are what I've always used, but are failing me big time at the moment. Now if I try these things he starts hitting and slapping me which just creates a whole other thing to address (which I am not doing well).
And the violence towards other kids is also getting out of control. Until this morning, I'd only ever seen him give a little push. But today we were at a cafe where they have a cubby and toys for the LO's and DS and another little boy were in the cubby. The other boy was in his way so DS shoved him and then slapped him across the face I couldn't believe it, it was so rough. I yelled stop straight away and went over and got him and told him that because he couldn't play nicely he would have to sit with mummy. Then explained the whole why we don't hit etc and said that I thought he should say sorry (I don't tell him to say sorry, because I don't think I should be forcing him to IYKWIM). He sat on my knee for about 30 seconds before trying to get off and I asked him if he wanted to say sorry and he said he did, so we went over but then he got a bit shy. Thankfully the other mum was very understanding. But I really feel like I didn't handle it particularly well. Or more so that he didn't learn anything from it.
I don't want to be a parent who yells and screams. I want to teach rather than dictate. But right now it feels like my teaching methods are failing miserably. His language is very good for his age and I know he understands what I'm saying (in terms of what hurt, happy, sad etc mean) - I'm just not sure he comprehends the meaning of it if that makes sense.
It's awful when his bad behavior is directed at other children, like today. While I believe in the approach we're taking to discipline him, it feels like everyone else is looking at me thinking I handled it terribly and that I should be yelling etc... I can't help but wonder if what we're doing just isn't working, if it is the age, or there are other factors at play. I don't know what i'm meant to do when I'm trying to calm him down or take him away from a situation and he starts hitting me. I can't let him continue, in some instances (like today) I can't just put him down and distance myself from him because he is hitting me... The carers at CC keep telling me his change in behavior is because I'm pregnant and they all do it at this stage, but I find that hard to believe. It just seems that we're going through a really difficult patch. I'm not sure if I should keep doing what we're doing or I need to employ some new techniques...
OK, this has definately turned into more of a vent. thanks for reading.
Everybody keeps mentioning the 123 Magic approach - it would be great if you could give me an overview of how it works.
Do you do time out or the naughty spot?
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. Sometimes, rather than time out, time in is better - you get down at their level and hear them out. It's harder when they don't talk much, but sometimes just really being there helps. They know it's ok to express their emotions because mummy is still there even at their worst.
I couldn't believe it, it was so rough. I yelled stop straight away and went over and got him and told him that because he couldn't play nicely he would have to sit with mummy. Then explained the whole why we don't hit etc and said that I thought he should say sorry (I don't tell him to say sorry, because I don't think I should be forcing him to IYKWIM). He sat on my knee for about 30 seconds before trying to get off and I asked him if he wanted to say sorry and he said he did, so we went over but then he got a bit shy. Thankfully the other mum was very understanding. But I really feel like I didn't handle it particularly well. Or more so that he didn't learn anything from it.
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